JH Vs NA...

[jimbo&rooster]

Any time someone on this forum mentions a JH it is more or less mentioned in passing or almost looked down upon by folks. You see a ton of comments about how a JH is more or less a joke.

On the flip side when someone gets their NA especially a prize 1 it seems like that is some feat to be respected and proud of.

I guess I don't understand why one organizations natural ability test is superior to the other. I'm not trying to start a fight here im just curious.

Jim

[brad27]

In JH the dog has to point 50% of the birds it's finds. NA, there's more to it.

[Az Draht]

I think the disrespect for the JH is to the show dog people that put a JH on a dog and then nothing else. Then, they advertise the dogs to be "dual" dogs.

[GUNDOGS]

Any time someone on this forum mentions a JH it is more or less mentioned in passing or almost looked down upon by folks. You see a ton of comments about how a JH is more or less a joke.

On the flip side when someone gets their NA especially a prize 1 it seems like that is some feat to be respected and proud of.

I guess I don't understand why one organizations natural ability test is superior to the other. I'm not trying to start a fight here im just curious.

Jim

i believe why the 2 are looked at differently when achieved is because the JH test is about the pup/dog finding and pointing birds where as the NA test shows the versatility and natural ability of the pup/dog by working all areas such as the ability to co operate with the handler, find and point birds, track a bird, enter the water with confidence and swim therefore the NA test highlights more of the dogs "natural ability" and "versatility"...ruth

[JKP]

I am not a big fan of the AKC hunt tests. The few JH tests I have seen involved a walk around a back course and then pointing a bird in a bird field. It was lame. 80% of the dogs that passed were not hunting dogs...mostly show dogs being "legitimized" by the owner. The whole hunt test series needs to be overhauled....the bar needs to be higher...or perhaps the tests more uniform/serious.

The NA test is a bit more but not much....and in most cases its not about natural ability. Year old dogs that have already been through a hunting season and are commanded to "fetch" are not exhibiting natural ability. Better to look at that when a pup is 3-5 months old.

[larry]

JH has no age limit on when a dog can be tested. NA dog cannot be over 16 months. I prefer to see the pups under one year.

[DonF]

I am not a big fan of the AKC hunt tests. The few JH tests I have seen involved a walk around a back course and then pointing a bird in a bird field. It was lame. 80% of the dogs that passed were not hunting dogs...mostly show dogs being "legitimized" by the owner. The whole hunt test series needs to be overhauled....the bar needs to be higher...or perhaps the tests more uniform/serious.

The NA test is a bit more but not much....and in most cases its not about natural ability. Year old dogs that have already been through a hunting season and are commanded to "fetch" are not exhibiting natural ability. Better to look at that when a pup is 3-5 months old.

I was judging the first few N.W. Pointing Dog Tests. The show people decended on the test like flys. They had nice dogs but they were not bird dogs! I had one handler tell me if we weren't going to pass their dogs, they wouldn't come. I don't miss them. I saw quite a few good dogs from trial lines but there was a problem there also. We had one pro with a really nice pointer show up. I think he was wanting to prove his pointer's would foot handle. Beautiful dog but failed it. Problem was it was gone from the cast off till we started into the bird field. At that time the handler yelled his dog was comming, from way behind us. I failed it and the handler was insenced. He said the two other field trial judges judge it in a pointing dog test and it passed. I told him that if he really could handle the dog I would have passed it too. The dog did a real nice job in the bird field but, found out later the guy had a friend signaling from the sidelines where to go to the planted birds. I think to many judges judge with their own preferecnes in mind. The whole point of the test was to show the traits that made good bird dogs, not show dogs that might be able to handle it or trial dogs that simply ran off but handlers thought they'd get a pass because they were trialing the dog.

I think the test's were a great idea but they waay special intrest's tried to use them turned me off flat. At the very first test, we had an AKC rep there watching. After every run he'd come to us and ask what we thought about the dogs that just ran.

[GUNDOGS]

I am not a big fan of the AKC hunt tests. The few JH tests I have seen involved a walk around a back course and then pointing a bird in a bird field. It was lame. 80% of the dogs that passed were not hunting dogs...mostly show dogs being "legitimized" by the owner. The whole hunt test series needs to be overhauled....the bar needs to be higher...or perhaps the tests more uniform/serious.

The NA test is a bit more but not much....and in most cases its not about natural ability. Year old dogs that have already been through a hunting season and are commanded to "fetch" are not exhibiting natural ability. Better to look at that when a pup is 3-5 months old.

I do agree a pup should be tested for NA at a young age (3 to 5 months) if you really want to test "natural ability".....a huge factor of being able to test them at a young age is dependent on when they were born and where you are located...for example if you live in my area (ontario canada) and have a pup born in august (which i have) you can figure on not testing the pup for NA until at least 9 months old because of the tests available and because of the weather (unless you travel south)..to be honest, i am not impressed to see a dog 1 yr or older who gets a prize 1 in a NA test because most times (not all) but most times theyve been "trained" to do the test and to me training for that test is not what the test is about or intended to be about...ruth

[birddog1220]

don i couldnt agree with you more. i cant beleve how many jh. dogs fail! its sad to see them go birdless and then look at you to see if they passed. i think the na. test is way better but like mentioned above not over a year old. the other down side to jh. is i have seen a lot of dogs and handlers louse lots of ground in training when braced with a dog that isnt even ready for jh. bad handler or booth. atleast in na. its just you and the dog and if you have some issues in the test you have a chance to redeam them.

[steamer]

not trying to pick a fight but some of you need to read the navhda rules and aims book pg 11 and 12 they clearly state that a dog ran in the na test should have some level of training . they dont want to see a broke dog but at very least the dog should be introduced to birds and gun fire. i have to ask how many people have fired a 12ga popper over a 12 to 20 week old pup? not saying it cant or hasnt been done but it seems kind of young to me. i dont know anything about the jh test so i wont comment on that. i do know that it takes a huge amount of time, work, and money to become a navhda judge and they know what they are doing. if a dog gets a high score in an na test then it is most likely going to be a good hunting dog and came from a good breeding program. im sure people have just put a pup on the ground and done very well but i believe this would be the acception and not the norm.it does look like a dog has to be 6 months old before it can be ran in a jh test. is this true?

[GUNDOGS]

not trying to pick a fight but some of you need to read the navhda rules and aims book pg 11 and 12 they clearly state that a dog ran in the na test should have some level of training . they dont want to see a broke dog but at very least the dog should be introduced to birds and gun fire. i have to ask how many people have fired a 12ga popper over a 12 to 20 week old pup? not saying it cant or hasnt been done but it seems kind of young to me. i dont know anything about the jh test so i wont comment on that. i do know that it takes a huge amount of time, work, and money to become a navhda judge and they know what they are doing. if a dog gets a high score in an na test then it is most likely going to be a good hunting dog and came from a good breeding program. im sure people have just put a pup on the ground and done very well but i believe this would be the acception and not the norm.it does look like a dog has to be 6 months old before it can be ran in a jh test. is this true?

i dont take your point as picking a fight at all, ive read the navhda book, from what i take from it is the NA test was designed to have owners/breeders/trainers run their young dogs or pups in order to see what natural abilities the pup/dog inherited also if i can remember correctly it is to see what kind of "versatile" hunting dog protege you have in order to determine what training that particular pup or dog needs to improve on and what areas the dog has strengths in or if you should start looking for another pup more to your liking according to desire and ability..also breeders use the NA test and encourage testing to their puppy buyers so they know what they need to change in their breeding programs or if they got it right with the breeding they are testing..i can only speak for myself but i personally feel there are some people that, as stated earlier, put pressure and alot of training into the NA test instead of just "exposing" the pup or dog to birds and water..i dont think the test proves much to the pups inherited natural abilities if the dog has had 10 months of hunting and training put into it before the test...i put my 5 month old GSP in the NA test and she scored a prize 1 110 points and wasnt even handled by me or my husband, she would have ran for you if you wanted to run her, which to me says she had inherited abilities and was very co operative being handled by others, she didnt have exposure previously to tracking, hadnt been in water and had only been on pigeons at the time, no other birds..to me thats an impressive hunting dog with natural hunting abilities more so than a 15 month old dog who has been trained and hunted for 10 months prior, just my personal opinion not trying to pick a fight either although i usually can find one without trying .....ruth

[JKP]

how many people have fired a 12ga popper over a 12 to 20 week old pup?

You are kidding right...I have killed a limit of roosters over 18-20 month old pups ina 45 minute hunt in ND.

I like NAVHDA...they have done the heavy lifting as far as the Vdog concept and offered affordable avenue for the average guy to train a useable dog. But, dogs that have been hunted and attended 10-12 training days are hardly being evaluated for natural ability. Maybe they should call it something else and put in a true puppy test.

[nikegundog]

how many people have fired a 12ga popper over a 12 to 20 week old pup?

You are kidding right...I have killed a limit of roosters over 18-20 month old pups ina 45 minute hunt in ND.

I like NAVHDA...they have done the heavy lifting as far as the Vdog concept and offered affordable avenue for the average guy to train a useable dog. But, dogs that have been hunted and attended 10-12 training days are hardly being evaluated for natural ability. Maybe they should call it something else and put in a true puppy test.

Not trying to start anything, but he said weeks not months.

[ezzy333]

how many people have fired a 12ga popper over a 12 to 20 week old pup?

You are kidding right...I have killed a limit of roosters over 18-20 month old pups ina 45 minute hunt in ND.

I like NAVHDA...they have done the heavy lifting as far as the Vdog concept and offered affordable avenue for the average guy to train a useable dog. But, dogs that have been hunted and attended 10-12 training days are hardly being evaluated for natural ability. Maybe they should call it something else and put in a true puppy test.

Maybe they should leave it just like it is for all of the people who understand it, use it and like it. And maybe for those that want to find fault with everything and never participate in any of them and have no interest in should develop their own little test that doesn't follow NAVADa or AKC or AF or NSTRA or any of the other programs and tests they don't like.

Ezzy

[Petra]

I agree that the NA is a little more involved than the JH, but the master hunt (AKC) and the utility test (NAVHDA) both take a lot of training, two very different tests, the dog in my avatar was introduced to birds and guns at 8 weeks , he is 9 weeks in the picture, a good representation of my shooting skills, my dogs very early in the hunting season start to go on the shot, I wonder why? I wanted to have him in the field when I was out with my other dog, the only sound that caused a problem was the beeper on my 3 year old , the pup quickly learned beeper meant bird and we were off to the races. There are many different games to do with your dog, each is different, I choose NAVDHA because it closely resembled the type of hunting that I enjoy. I don't think any of them need to be rated better than another ,just different, to meet different needs.

[JKP]

Maybe they should leave it just like it is for all of the people who understand it, use it and like it. And maybe for those that want to find fault with everything and never participate in any of them and have no interest in should develop their own little test that doesn't follow NAVADa or AKC or AF or NSTRA or any of the other programs and tests they don't like.

Ezzy,
I started in NAVHDA in 1972...when did you start? Every dog I have UT tested owned since 1997 has been a UT1 dog...more than half with max score. I belong to two chapters and regularly support training days and work with young handlers...while my dogs sit in the truck. Just FYI....

I still think NAVHDA needs to raise the bar...its too easy.

[brad27]

I still think NAVHDA needs to raise the bar...its too easy.

Did you take any if those dogs to VC?

[JKP]

Did you take any if those dogs to VC?

Yes. We did not pass..in those days a helper threw the duck out of a boat into 10 acres of water. We ran out of time.

But that's not the discussion. The NA is not an ability test...its a trained test....so are the spring tests for the Euro clubs...I think we would all be better off to evaluate puppies and observe inherited traits...not trained ones...at any earlier age.

[ultracarry]

An age limit for JH would be nice..... dogs should at least hold point until you are within a reasonable distance from the dog that would allow the handler to shoot the bird...

[brad27]

But that's not the discussion.

No, the discussion was you saying NAVHDA was easy and they need to raise the bar. Which means nothing coming from someone who hasn't taken a dog to the highest level. I don't do NAVHDA but I have respect for the venue. Maybe you should too.

[slistoe]

Did you take any if those dogs to VC?

Yes. We did not pass..in those days a helper threw the duck out of a boat into 10 acres of water. We ran out of time.

But other folks did pass I presume.

What a conundrum. NAVHDA is too easy, but you weren't able to pass.

I believe that JH and NA are both great and necessary elements of a comprehensive testing program for folks to get started with their dogs, but they both really mean very little in regards to a functional field dog.

[JKP]

But other folks did pass I presume.

What a conundrum. NAVHDA is too easy, but you weren't able to pass.

You don't understand the Invitational too well. Now the water work is a simple double retrieve...years ago, a helper stood in a boat in the reeds 75 yds from shore and threw a live duck into 10-20 acres of marsh. 20 minutes was allowed for the dog to bring the duck. If you got a hen mallard that called the dog it was easy....if you got a drake that took off for the hinterlands, your dog might catch up in the alloted time and it might not.

But back to the NA test....look at the number of dogs that are getting prize 1's...or max scores...if part of the mission is to identify dogs with greater ability for the purposes of breeding, the bar needs to be raised or at least a 10 point format introduced...but we've had that discussion before.

I once correlated the NA and Euro Puppy tests scores of dogs that ran in both formats. Of the dogs that got 112's in the NA test, the average score in the Euro systems was 69...out of a possible 81. Expanding to a 10 point system would help identify the top dogs.

[LincolnAlexander]

I think that any test has value and tells you something about the dog...

The thing I really like about NA is that you can easily look up the scores the dog received for each attribute, and that it has a prizing system to differentiate a dogs performance (I will say the scoring system itself leaves a bit to be desired since a dog that performs at 76% on everything would get the same score as a dog that scores 100% on everything in theory...) You can look at scores and see a dog with a great nose, desire, etc vs another dog who got the same or better score/prize but was lacking in something like drive.

For JH (or FDJ, the Canadian equaivalent) I think the test is great experience for someone new to testing, and it should tell me that dog has decent qualities like range, pace, desire and point... unfortunately no one really looks at the scores, just the leg/title itself. I feel that is the big weakness in the system since that dog that passed with scores all in the high 90's is a heck of a lot more dawg then the one who passes with low 80's in each leg. In addition, even if you see the total score, you don't see the scores for each attribute which is really what tells you something about the dog (at least I can't see them from CKC tests.)

[LincolnAlexander]

If you run againsnt a standard why do you think there's a need to idenify top dogs. Imo the differance between a max score and 2,3 points lower is the day.

While this can definitely be true in some cases, I have seen a fair number of dogs with multiple tests always scoring a 1 or 2 in Desire... not the day there, it is the dog. I agree that it would be nice to be able to differentiate the dog with a 7 or 8 out of 10 vs the dog who REALLY has 10/10 as an example.

[LincolnAlexander]

a max score and 2,3 points lower is the day.

1 or 2 in Desire... not the day there, it is the dog.

I'm talk over all score 112 vs a 110 or 108.

Sorry I get ya now, and agree with that .

[dan v]

I'm talk over all score 112 vs a 110 or 108.

So I guess I should be pretty pumped about a 7 month old dog, by my stud, that scored a 107 NA?

[gspguy]

JH is fun and a good way to get into Tests, etc and if you like it then progress to the next level. Not much pressure on the handler and dog and a good pair of judges will help you understand what you should and shouldn't be doing. Having someone signal where the birds are in a JH test (or any test) is pathetic. If the dog cannot find birds without handler help then it simply shouldn't pass. There are going to be cheaters in every type of game. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean YOU have to cheat though. I have to say that I don't know anything about NA tests so I can't comment. I have seen some MH level dogs that I would not want as they were "too". Too robotic, too close, and too dependent on the handler. Saw some JH'rs that I would have loved to have.

[GUNDOGS]

JH is fun and a good way to get into Tests, etc and if you like it then progress to the next level. Not much pressure on the handler and dog and a good pair of judges will help you understand what you should and shouldn't be doing. Having someone signal where the birds are in a JH test (or any test) is pathetic. If the dog cannot find birds without handler help then it simply shouldn't pass. There are going to be cheaters in every type of game. That's just the way it is. It doesn't mean YOU have to cheat though. I have to say that I don't know anything about NA tests so I can't comment. I have seen some MH level dogs that I would not want as they were "too". Too robotic, too close, and too dependent on the handler. Saw some JH'rs that I would have loved to have.

Ive heard this "too robotic" comment on here before, please explain do you mean too obedient?? thanks...ruth

[ultracarry]

Slow dependent dogs that are always looking for direction

[jimbo&rooster]

I posted this question trying to figure out why the JH title is treated as a joke and the NA title is more or less viewed as a higher accompolishment, and to that end I havn't really seen anything that gives me an answer. I have seen people say that due to age and the requirements (pointing 1/2 of the found birds) the JH title doesn't prove anything. I have also heard that the NA test is better because it is more inclusive, then come to find out that the NA test is a natural ability test that is expected that you will train for it. I guess we all Pays our Money and Takes our Chances in the games we want to play.

As far as the MH level dogs being robotic I noticed that when I was testing last spring with my young GSP, I like a dog that will roll and do its own thing and when I was watching the higher level testing I saw alot of dogs that were taking too many ques from their handler and weren't really doing the things I want to see a hunting dog do.

On the same line of thought I have hunted with several UT NAVHDA dogs when I was looking at getting my first GSP and I noticed again that the dogs weren't really allowed to roll and were very much under alot of handler control when in the field.

JIm

[ultracarry]

If you want to see dogs roll with it then check out some field trials. Walking trials are easier if you don't have a horse but if you can rent a horse a regular field trial might appeal to you. After watching dogs in field trials the hunt tests about put me to sleep. But I have been known to run a dog that will out run the course in MH. As long as she watches and goes to the bird field I haven't had a problem yet.

[jimbo&rooster]

If you want to see dogs roll with it then check out some field trials. Walking trials are easier if you don't have a horse but if you can rent a horse a regular field trial might appeal to you. After watching dogs in field trials the hunt tests about put me to sleep. But I have been known to run a dog that will out run the course in MH. As long as she watches and goes to the bird field I haven't had a problem yet.

Attendning HTs is what prompted me to start searching for an FT prospect. I picked up a GSP from some nice FT stock this fall and intend to start puppy stakes this spring. That pup almost caused me to have to move out when I moved a TWH into the barn with my wifes Apps and QHs

Jim

[Symon]

JH evaluates 4 categories in a field hunt scenario: hunt (desire), bird finding (search), pointing, trainability (cooperation).
Each category is scored from 0-10. Minimum passing score of 28 with no individual category score below 5. 4 passing scores to title. Dogs run in brace, no age limit.

NAVHDA evaluates 7 categories: nose, search, tracking, pointing, water, desire and cooperation in 3 separate scenarios
Field Phase : reaction to gunfire (gun shyness), use of nose, search, pointing, desire and cooperation.
Tracking Phase - use of nose, tracking, desire to work and cooperation.
Water Phase : (willingness to swim - not retrieving) water entry, desire to work and cooperation.
Judgment of Physical Characteristics (Bite/Teeth, Eyes, Coat, Testes, Temperament).
Scoring is more in depth and minimum scores are required for each prize. Prize1 (min. score 99 but must have max. score in nose, search and desire), Prize11 (min. score 80), Prize111 (min. score 58). Dogs run individually, dogs up to 16 months old.

Is NAVHDA a higher accomplishment? It depends on what you are looking for out of the test. It was designed for breeders to stay on track with breeding programs for versatile hunting dogs by ideally testing litters. One tool of evaluation out of many. The test is unarguably more versatile. The nice thing about NAVHDA is you can see where a dog scores. I dog with heaps of desire can have horrible (immature) cooperation and therefore get a lower prize. Does that translate into a dog with less NA? Um, no. A perfect score doesn’t mean a perfect dog. It often means a good test day. Anyone who has run any of these tests can attest to the countless variables on test day. I give less to the test score and more to where the dog scores and the conditions under which the scores were achieved AND the accomplishment to follow. Test scores do not define a dog. Sadly, that can be easily misrepresented. I do agree JH gets a bad wrap from breeders of show lines that pick up a junior title only to promote their lines as hunting lines or dual lines. For us, testing is part of training, training is part of the fun, but the real fun is seeing is all come together.

Addressing the opinion of training and age of the dog for NA. Exposure is a better descriptive word than training. Although these tests evaluate NA, dogs should be exposed (i.e. gun fire, water, basic obedience, birds, a track) some dogs need a little more exposure, some a little less . A good breeder can evaluate NA in a pup at 5 weeks old, does that mean a pup should run a test a 5 weeks old to prove NA? Um, no. Does a dog that runs at 6 months old turn out to be a better dog than one that runs at 12 months? Not necessarily. “Too robotic” comes from pushing dogs younger and younger to prove (NA) with a test score. Depends on the dog, depends on the breed, depends on how you define training, depends on what you are looking for. Not less impressive by any means.