Shooting birds not pointed...

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ACooper
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Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:55 pm

Wanted to bring this over from another board...

Different birds require different rules for me. I will not generally shoot a quail that wasn't pointed unless it is walked up and the dog had nothing to do with it, but will shoot unpointed pheasants all day, as long as it was not intentionally taken out by the dog. Been doing it that way for the last 15 years haven't noticed any less attempt by the dogs to point every bird they find. Would probably be different if I lived in an area with more pheasants.

Thoughts?
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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:07 pm

I'll do that with an experienced dog, im not gonna go shooting a mess of bumped or wild flush birds with a young dog on the ground tho....just wouldn't be what i was trying to accomplish with a young dog down.
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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by Hotpepper » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:13 pm

Yes on the experienced dog - no to thew rest

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by ACooper » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:50 pm

Hotpepper wrote:Yes on the experienced dog - no to thew rest

Pepper
birddog1968 wrote:I'll do that with an experienced dog, im not gonna go shooting a mess of bumped or wild flush birds with a young dog on the ground tho....just wouldn't be what i was trying to accomplish with a young dog down.
Good points, and I agree on that with young dogs.

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by AzDoggin » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:53 pm

What is this pheas-ant you speak of?

I seen pitchers of 'em, but nothing like those can be found around here, unfortunately. :cry:

(yes I do need a road trip!!!!)

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by ultracarry » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:37 pm

In a new area/new bird type scenario I will take the first bird no matter what. They all smell different and I want my dog to know what is being hunted . I usually miss though so no harm no foul but after the first shot I get the results I want and will not shoot un-pointed birds.

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by Neil » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:43 pm

With my son and his buddies along, if it flies it dies (and they are good shots, rarely missing).

I have never seen it have an effect on my training, one way or the other. I can assume that a full diet of it without correction might lead to problems, but I don't let the dogs get by with much.

I have always thought if a dog was smart enough to make the connection between a solid, staunch point and a dead bird a poor shot would never be able to train a dog. Because there would not be enough dead birds to teach the dog anything.

To believe that you can only shoot pointed birds is to believe that the retrieve is the only reward a dog gets, I have seen too many dogs (not mine, but many others) that were trained to STW without ever having a bird in their mouths.

It is a myth that is prompted because it seems logical to us as humans, dogs do not. cannot think like we do. They only do what is instinct and what they have been trained to do, they are poor problem solvers. And to make the connection between pointed birds and a retrieve is high level cause and effect, much beyond their ability.

I would like one person to come on here and say, yes I shot unpointed birds and never got the dog trained.

Neil

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:54 am

In a dog's first season, it's pointed birds only. After that, any bird the dog points, or any I flush wild, I shoot.
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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by slistoe » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:33 am

gonehuntin' wrote:In a dog's first season, it's pointed birds only. After that, any bird the dog points, or any I flush wild, I shoot.
In a dogs first season I shoot anything I can put on the ground for the dog. I don't care how it got in the air. Now that does depend somewhat on the dog and the number of contacts/birds shot and the reaction I am getting. In the second season I hold the dog accountable.

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Re: Shoting birds not pointed...

Post by kbshorthairs » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:54 am

I can't answer this question........my dog points ALL the birds. :lol:

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:30 pm

Gentlemen
We shoot pointed birds 99% of the time, every once in a great while one of the men, takes a wild flushing Grouse, as it leaves a big Hemlock. In our upland shooting life its not how many birds you take, its how you take the birds. We never gun bumped birds with young dogs, we expect our dogs to retrieve to hand and track winged birds for their masters, shooting flying is only half the game here.
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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by bwjohn » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:34 pm

do you train your dog to stop to flush?

If a dog flushes a bird, which all dogs will at some point, if you have done stop to flush work then I feel fine shooting the bird. but I still want the dog to stop running and watch the bird and mark it down, if lucky enough to hit it.

I have a young dog know on his first hunting season and I just recently shot a first bird over his point, he broke on the shot, but i am ok with that for now.

brandon

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:44 pm

bwJohn,
All birds must be pointed by our dogs 1st, with a rock solid point, the dog must be commanded to flush the birds by the master. No bird bumping allowed, even our old Boykin stopped dead to flush on command. Watching Rosie my old German Shorthair point, and having my brothers Boykin flush on command, we had lots of gunning fun.
Took lots of repetative training to make this happen.
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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by markj » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:36 am

I usually hunt a pup with my older dog, they learn the ropes fast that way. The older wiser dog will show the young one how to scent track and find the bird fast. Has worked for me since I was a pup and Dad did just the same thing as did Grandpa.
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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by Fieldmaster » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:04 pm

Never !!!!

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:01 pm

Fieldmaster wrote:Never !!!!
Ditto...that is why I have a POINTING dog...most of the pleasure is watching the dog, not shooting. IMO

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by tdhusker » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:59 pm

I don't field trial my dogs and they are not broke steady to flush. I hunt pheasant mostly and some sharptail, spend many days afield per year doing so. Having said that, I shoot every rooster that flushes. I'd guess that means 70% of the dog's points are on hens so I shoot a bird on 30% of his points (providing I do my part).

If you are determined to have a broke dog and keep him that way, I could see why you wouldn't shoot bumped or flushing birds. As foreign as it sounds to handlers here, I like my dog to pursue birds when they flush and be on them quicker when they fall. I also have been doing it this way since I was a kid because that was the way my dad hunted his dogs. I have yet to see a pointing dog that was "ruined" by shooting flushed or bumped birds. Hunt wild pheasant all season for his first couple years and the dog will know much better than the hunter how to approach wild flushing or running birds. A pointing dog always points sitting birds because that is what they do...at least in my experience. It's their genetic disposition. I haven't had a dog yet that just quit pointing and went to busting every opportunity. I've had dogs go through phases like that but they always get back to what comes naturally...pointing.

On shooting flushers or pass shooting, a hard running dog can really get on them quickly if they are gliding in crippled or wounded. When the wind is howling and you have a bird sail in 200 yards downwind, it's pretty nice to have that streak of white or brown hair in hot pursuit. You simply collect more of what you hit and take home more birds if you take that approach. Frankly, late in the season, wild roosters are darned tough to get to stick. Late season, I might hunt for two days and have the dog point 10 birds, nary a one will be a rooster. I guess that not shooting at the rangey flushers would be an option but you will surely go home empty handed.

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by ridgerunner » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:45 pm

I will shoot at a bumped bird, one that flushes wild, or one that I put up...my dog is not perfect, but he handles the mountain grouse best he can. I am a little more disciplined when it comes to a young dog or someone else's dog. I hunt by myself most times and around here it's mostly about how many did you kill.

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by Colo kid » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:37 pm

Just got back from KS-Colo border. My GWP was turned into a flushing lab, by the way the pheasants were bunched up. He was having a ball, diving into a tank dam and 20-40 birds would get up. I did manage to shoot a few, so he got to make his retrieves. I was thinking did all his whoa training go out the window? He is pretty steady to the flush. He dosn't chase. Should I expect to see him point a whole covey of pheasants?

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by ACooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:48 pm

Colo kid wrote:Just got back from KS-Colo border. My GWP was turned into a flushing lab, by the way the pheasants were bunched up. He was having a ball, diving into a tank dam and 20-40 birds would get up. I did manage to shoot a few, so he got to make his retrieves. I was thinking did all his whoa training go out the window? He is pretty steady to the flush. He dosn't chase. Should I expect to see him point a whole covey of pheasants?
Yes you should expect him to point one pheasant or 20. Or at least attempt to point them.

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Re: Shooting birds not pointed...

Post by Neil » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:21 pm

You should have corrected the dog.

I often hear people say, "Never use and e-collar around birds", and I think other than to break from off-game, when would you use an e-collar?

Neil

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