Unregisterd GunDogs

[Havy_GSP]

Yesterday I saw a add for a litter of GSP puppys (unregisterd) The add states both parents are proven hunters. Sire is a AKC registered GSP, the dam was never registered. Personaly I feel it is important to have registered dogs so there is not unwanted dogs. on the other side they are cheep and if they are good companions and hunters than i cant see a problem.they pups look great and i am starting to considering picking one up. I would like to know everyones opinion and if anyone has any unregistered dogs that hunt.

Havy

[Cajun Casey]

We have a really nice hunting dog that is out of Elhew/Fiddler x Dixieland's Rusty/PJ Wildfire lines.

[ultracarry]

If you want a hunting dog I know someone with a GSP, a pointer, and Brittany.. didn't ask if they had papers but would prob go for a few hundred dollars .... pm if interested.

[yetinme]

I hunt with two other dogs on a regular basis. My dog has papers but never filed them since we had her fixed anyway. The other two dogs don't have any papers at all. In fact, one was a rescue dog from here and is #1 or #2 dog of the three. Not sure there is any difference between the three dogs exept training. More concern over hips, etc... but don't tell the cheap dogs they aren't papered and they won't know

Take a look at them and see if you can watch them in the field. I would rather hunt next to a well trained mutt then a wild untrained papered dog.

Just my opinion;

[Ruffshooter]

The registration of dogs is so you can somewhat verify lineage and to participate in games. Other than that if you have seen the dogs hunt and they have good health and temprament that you want. I see no problem.
Rick

[jimbo&rooster]

Of the 4 gundogs in my kennel 2 are registered GSPs, one is a GSP/EP, and one is a Lab/?. The lab was my first gun dog and she has retrieved hundreds of ducks and geese from Michigan to Arkansas, along with several thousand doves and her fair share of wild quail and pen raised birds. The GSP/EP is young but is showing some seriouse natural talent. The litter of pups in question doesn't know they don't have papers. Start them from day one just like you would any gun dog and my experience tells me that they have as good a chance of being a working gun dog as any.

Jim

[gotpointers]

We have a really nice hunting dog that is out of Elhew/Fiddler x Dixieland's Rusty/PJ Wildfire lines.

I bet dixelands has some more fiddler a few generations back

[windswept]

AKC paperwork really means very little. All it means is mom and dad each have one of the little pieces of paper too. The breeder simply tells AKC that they whelped 3 males and 2 females and AKC sends them 5 pieces of paper. There is no demonstration of anything, health, hunting ability or otherwise as a minimum breeding standard. So what the heck, if you like the pups save yourself a few bucks and get one.
Good luck and happy hunting.

[fishvik]

The registration of dogs is so you can somewhat verify lineage and to participate in games. Other than that if you have seen the dogs hunt and they have good health and temprament that you want. I see no problem.

I agree, I've never owned a registered dog and only one purebred. All the rest of my dogs have been mix breeds and all but one have been good hunting dogs.

Personaly I feel it is important to have registered dogs so there is not unwanted dogs.

The purebred GSP I own was dumped off in the night drop at the local pound with her sister. From the way she hunts she probably came from good hunting stock. She has a great nose and holds a point well. So maybe just having registered dogs doesn't mean they will be wanted.

[Greg Jennings]

Registration really doesn't mean anything if you're not playing the dog games, are breeding or happen to be interested in genealogy.

[DonF]

I like to see papers so I have an idea of what I'm getting. But papers really don't do much else. I think most papered dogs are way to expensive. A good friend of mine got a rescue shorthair a year or so ago. Looking at him there's not much doubt that he's a pure bred dog, but I couldn't prove it. Watching him hunt, I could care less if he was pure bred. In your case, like other's have said, go watch the parents work.

[Southwind]

10 yrs ago I bought pick of the litter out of an female Elhew pointer and a male GSP accidental litter for $35. I bought him to keep my setter company in the kennel when I was at the fire station for 24hr shifts. Fast forward to present day and he is the best wild pheasant/preserve guide dog I have ever owned. Reg papers do not find birds or even prove their bloodlines to be good.

When I began guiding several years ago, I was amazed at how I was the only guide at that preserve to have any reg dogs at all. The owner of the preserve as well as the local guides had very nice unreg dogs. The only breedings they did was so they could all have a couple more young guide dogs for the next season. I have raised some nice guide dogs over the years out of some of the best and most proven field trial lines in the country. Seeing them out in the field with the other guide's best meat dogs, you would think all the dogs were reg out of great proven bloodlines.

[MO_GSP]

i have three dogs

gsp(m) is registered with great pedigree-chisolm creeks, city slicker, rawhides clown

pointer(f) is registered with great pedigree- honky tonk in there

weim(f) is a rescue(no papers) that is sweet as pie and probably the most enjoyable hunting companion, i hate to admit that because she was free and i really love the other dogs too

my pointer is currently bred, but i've always been curious to breeding my gsp and weim just for a new hunting companion i know most would think its crazy but i think they would make great dogs

[madmurph]

A registered dog is nice in regards to knowing the exact pedigree and being able to compete with the dog. However, registration does not make a hunting dog. Genetics and training make a hunting dog. If sire and dam have natural abilities, many of these traits will be passed on to the puppies. If you are satisfied with the parents abilities, then get a pup, train it and hunt with it. You will be prohibited from competing in certain events if you ever get that bug, however you also have the option of enrolling the dog in the AKC PAL/ILP program.

[markj]

if anyone has any unregistered dogs that hunt

I kept a pup out of a litter 3 or 4 years ago for my son, never reged him. He hunts, he is better trained then a lot of dogs I see is rock solid on point and will hunt all day long. I do have papers to send in if I ever see the need. Not gonna breed him nor play any games so why spend the cash on a piece of paper?

[ezzy333]

Registration is a record of the dogs breeding that is very important but is just that. Registration of the individual, as I am sure everyone knows, has nothing to do with the dogs abilities. But it does let us know what the parents are likely to produce and it lets us know what the pup is likely to look and act like. I would always like a pup out of registered stock, and would insist on it inless I knew exactly what the parentage is and what their abilities are. In this case, it would be worth the chance but also understand it means no matter how good the dog is, it should never be used for breeding and can not be used for trialing and most other doggy games.

Registration is an absolute necessity for breeding. But an unregistered dog is better than no dog so if money is an issue go for it if you want a pet and occasional hunter.

Ezzy

[mountaindogs]

Registration is an absolute necessity for breeding. But an unregistered dog is better than no dog so if money is an issue go for it if you want a pet and occasional hunter.

Ezzy

This +1

But I am going to take this the other way. The DOGS probably will be good dogs. BUT the BREEDER should not be supported. So for that reason I don't reccomend buying unregistered dogs. If you are taking a puppy from an accidental litter, or rescue puppy or something that's fine. But all strays COME from some where and as long as people think they will find good home because "they are the greatest bird dogs" then they will have the litter. They might breed to keep 2 or 3 but they might actually have 10. Where do the other 7-8 puppies go? Demand drives supply. If they have a really hard time placing the puppies and they have 4 or 5 until they are 1-2 years old and then give them away, and spend all that money in food and hopefully vet care, well they might think again. If everyone takes one of those cute little bundles to "save" it, or because it's more affordable, then you'll see that breeder doing that again AND another one trying to copy that and make money too.

I am sorry, but have you ever talked with someone dropping puppies off at a shelter? They totally fool themselves into believing THESE puppies will find homes. Even though THEY the owners could not find homes for them. They are cute and no one will kill them. People used to "surrender" dogs at the vet clinic all the time because they felt sure someone would jump in and spend the money to treat that dog. Yes we all WANT to, but you can not save every dog someone else didn't. They could not kill it themselves, but what would they have done IF they KNEW for sure the dog would die. Often they might try harder to do the RIGHT thing.
Sorry for the soap box.
Long story short, if a you want an affordable birddog potential and do not care about registration, ask around for accidental litters from good breeders who just had an oops, but are trying to fix it the best that they can. Be sure it still has VACCINATIONS, dewormings, looks healthy, does not have fleas or ticks, and is clean, well kept and cared for. Don't support anything less.

[mountaindogs]

Just on the money side, here is a true story:
Buyer gets a puppy for $50 that had one set of co-op shots at 6 weeks, but is now 12 weeks... The breeder TOLD them it had it's shots, but neither knew that it needed another booster and so the puppy comes down with PARVO after 1 week. The new owners of this good deal, spent $1200 before that puppy was 14 weeks old. They are lucky the puppy lived, but their bargain puppy cost them $1250

[Cajun Casey]

Just get the puppy if you like it and don't sweat the preaching. Rescues get papered dogs as often as mistakes. Do insure that they are properly wormed and vaccinated, though.

[ACooper]

Papers don't make dogs.
I've had pointer x vizsla, unreg lab. GSPs we never sent papers in on etc etc. The dog doesn't know if it has papers.

[man2hit]

I agree that papers don't make dogs. I have a 6 month old GSP with out papers. He is full blooded and beautiful. I didn't realize at the time of purchase that the pup's hunting abilities sometimes rely heavily on it 's parents abilities and plus i was wanting one so bad I couldn't resist him. I have no idea if his parents hunt or not but i know already at 6 months old he will hold a point like there is not tomorrow. He has a great nose and seems to have a strong drive to hunt things in the yard. January will be our first trip out on an actual hunt. He is still very raw and untrained but so far he seems to have great potential. If I can manage to seize the opportunity at hand I believe I am going to have as good of a bird dog as I will ever need.

[Havy_GSP]

thanks everyone for the great advice i think unless someone takes her before saturday i will go get her.

[jcbuttry8]

Take her if you feel she will be what you are looking for, but i ask that you get her fixed. It is ultimately your choice but I personally feel it is necessary to have a papered dog for breeding. Otherwise, you are no different than a puppy mill. I have owned non registered dogs before. One from an oops litter and one from the pound that was to cute and only had one day left in its sentence. They were both fixed as soon as I got them. I only bred dogs that were papered. Good luck and I hope that she turns out to be what you want.

JM2C,

Joe

[ultracarry]

I agree that papers don't make dogs. I have a 6 month old GSP with out papers. He is full blooded and beautiful. I didn't realize at the time of purchase that the pup's hunting abilities sometimes rely heavily on it 's parents abilities and plus i was wanting one so bad I couldn't resist him. I have no idea if his parents hunt or not but i know already at 6 months old he will hold a point like there is not tomorrow. He has a great nose and seems to have a strong drive to hunt things in the yard. January will be our first trip out on an actual hunt. He is still very raw and untrained but so far he seems to have great potential. If I can manage to seize the opportunity at hand I believe I am going to have as good of a bird dog as I will ever need.

Must be the pointer in him..

[SHORTFAT]

I have an unregistered dog... she can't read anyway... had her fixed... very happy with her.

[vrepola]

Lets see have 4 bird dogs right now. 2 GSP's, 1 pointer, and a awsome little English Cocker. Only dog that has papers is my 14 year old GSP(retired). The others are all great hunters and they don't know they are not papered. They could care less.

[Wildweeds]

I've got a an 8 month old son of 1977 national shooting dog Ch and Hof inductee Tomoka here at the place.................I'm not going to even bother sending in the registration on him,He's got paper up the kazzoo behind him in patriot and tekoa mountain sunrise all within the first 3 gens as well as CH grouse ridge John and CH susan's ladybird.

paper is like a map.........................the dog is what the road actually looks like

[RoostersMom]

Papers aren't the end all and be all of having a good dog. I do not support breeders however, that are breeding unregistered dog. That said, I would never buy a dog or even probably take one from someone who made the choice to breed unregistered dogs. Not that the dogs are bad, but the breeder is not someone I want to work with. I currently have two dogs that are unregistered - they came from the shelter where I foster bird dogs. I see so many of these purebred or mixed breed hunting dogs come in that I can't condone supporting anyone who isn't a reputable breeder. It's a philosophical issue for me - like going to the local farmer for my meat instead of the wal-mart market.

It's always a gamble with a pup....buying from a reputable breeder really stacks the odds in your favor (genetics are known, temperament can be predicted, health issues that maim - hip dysplasia - can be prevented). Lots of reasons to support good reputable breeders. Not a single good reason in my mind to condone someone who is "experimenting" with unregistered dogs 'cuz little sweetie pie and old rufus are "great" hunters and wonderful pets and we just want to keep one of their puppies. The shelter has thousands of dogs like this.

I, too, would urge you to fix her when she has matured - or at least be willing to never breed her if you get her. There are thousands of "purebred" birddogs dying in shelters every day. Each backyard breeder like this guy is just taking a home that could have gone to a purebred pup in the shelter.

[mountaindogs]

Papers aren't the end all and be all of having a good dog. I do not support breeders however, that are breeding unregistered dog. That said, I would never buy a dog or even probably take one from someone who made the choice to breed unregistered dogs. Not that the dogs are bad, but the breeder is not someone I want to work with. I currently have two dogs that are unregistered - they came from the shelter where I foster bird dogs. I see so many of these purebred or mixed breed hunting dogs come in that I can't condone supporting anyone who isn't a reputable breeder. It's a philosophical issue for me - like going to the local farmer for my meat instead of the wal-mart market.

It's always a gamble with a pup....buying from a reputable breeder really stacks the odds in your favor (genetics are known, temperament can be predicted, health issues that maim - hip dysplasia - can be prevented). Lots of reasons to support good reputable breeders. Not a single good reason in my mind to condone someone who is "experimenting" with unregistered dogs 'cuz little sweetie pie and old rufus are "great" hunters and wonderful pets and we just want to keep one of their puppies. The shelter has thousands of dogs like this.

I, too, would urge you to fix her when she has matured - or at least be willing to never breed her if you get her. There are thousands of "purebred" birddogs dying in shelters every day. Each backyard breeder like this guy is just taking a home that could have gone to a purebred pup in the shelter.

++ 1
An accident is always possible, but I work hard to avoid them. I repect that most other breeders do too, so they should be rare. I might take a puppy from an oops litter if the situation was right, but I just don't feel it's right to support those willing to breed an unregistered, non health tested dog. (Maybe they did health testing... wasn't mentioned) The puppy though is innocent in this, so whatever your choice, the puppy is always the "good guy" no matter the breeders choices or dealings, accident or not...

[doco]

Boy am I glad some sense of Sensibility is starting on this thread. I wasn't sure what I was reading most of the way with so many saying "it's only paper". Paper is extremely important for the stability of whatever breed it is. It is the paper that separates the garage breeders from the reputable ones. IMO it is the paper that is your warranty. It is not a guarantee that the product your recieving will be a National Champion, but it certainly puts the odds in your favor if you know what you're looking at. And, if not, the breeder, a friend, or at least a Vet should be able to give you some advice. I certainly don't believe that anyone would by a car without a warranty. Even the OK breeder will even guarantee their dogs.

Don't get me wrong, but if it is an Oops, so be it. It's already been said, the dog didn't do anything wrong and therefore shouldn't be punished. But, it probably shouldn't be bred either. Labs are so overly bred by garage breeders, for cash and not for the good of the breed, that the genetic problems are surfacing more and more. I certainly agree with placing dogs but don't downplay the importance of the paper for reputable breeders.

I also agree that by supporting garage breeders, the genetics are being diluted and misrepresented. I'm not talking about them being crappy dogs, lord knows some of the best dogs come from the wierdest of places or breedings. Many times it leaves us wondering how did that dog get so good when others work so hard. It would be no different than buying a Hyundai and a Cadillac and the Hyundai could end up lasting 10 years and the Cadillac being a lemon. The price of the dog is an investment and we're only talking hundreds of dollars, not tens of thousands.

If the parents are good, you're happy with the puppy, it's what you can afford, and you don't plan on breeding, spectacular. It is commendable to take in a dog that fits your needs.

I guess that I am just surprised to see so much downplay and minimalization of papered dogs and reputable breeding that weaved throughout this thread. It was said in an earlier post, a lot of breeders work hard to title their dogs to improve their breedings. More so, than the guy mating his Hunter and Sheba!

On a side Note, Merry Christmas, may all your shots hit their targets and Blue Ribbons for everyone!

Bill

[SHORTFAT]

I have a dog that isn't registered, but all of her litter mates are. Great dog, but she was the runt and just didn't have the right stuff for trialing... She's not what the breed needs for sure, so I had her fixed but she makes a great hunting dog and family pet! She hasn't complained about the paperwork at all...