What bothers me...

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What bothers me...

Post by snips » Sat May 27, 2006 7:09 pm

When we sell our pups, we try to make sure puppy buyers are field people of some sort. We don`t work hard at our bloodlines to have the pup grow up in a crate or only knowing the confines of a back yard. It disappoints me to see raw talent ( like a young dog I have in here right now) going to waste. I know these dogs don`t understand what they are missing if they don`t experience it, but I don`t know how a person can own one of these dogs and not give them the oppurtunity to hunt wild birds, or even hunt preserve birds (better than nothing). Just thinking of Margarets thread of the experiences and memories you have hunting or trialing with your dog, it seems sad that people buy these dogs and never realize their born and bred love for hunting. Off my soapbox now :shock:
brenda

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Post by Ryan » Sat May 27, 2006 7:33 pm

I totally agree but I would rather see a GSP yapping happily as it run an agility course than locked up in a backyard.

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Post by LSKGSPs » Sat May 27, 2006 10:36 pm

Brenda, you hit my nail right on the head. My "nail" being the decision to breed my bitch or not. I know the dog/s that I want to sire the litter. Geographics will decide which when the time is here. But, and that is a huge BUT......Do I risk the life of a great GSP bitch because I want a pup or two? Then what happens to the rest of the litter? She will produce outstanding progeny. The thought of one of her pups being relegated to a crate 8- 10 hours a day, to a yard for life (to be ignored for the most part), to escape a yard and be killed and the list goes on......haunts me constantly.

I understand completely the process of buyer selection. 15 years of rescue taught me those lessons well. But those 15 years also taught me that you can't control the behavior of the adoptor or buyer beyond the length of your driveway.

It is just my very humble opinion..but I think many litters hit the ground because the owner of the bitch wants a puppy from her
for their own reasons. They make their selection and the rest of the litter become "Sale Items" and $$$$$$ signs. Thus, "Breed Rescue" is born.

I struggle with this constantly and would appreciate input from others as to their approach to the issue. Because in the end.there are many places I can go to get a great GSP pup.......Georgia (Walnut Hill) being one of those places.........Maybe not as good as I would get if I bred "Fritz" to my bitch.....hehehehe (kidding and grinning)....but even then...What would happen to the rest of the litter after I took the top two?????

GREAT TOPIC...GREAT THREAD......Thanks for starting it.

LSK

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Post by GsPJustin » Sun May 28, 2006 3:26 am

I dont know much about breeding and I have never done it before, so I dont really know all that your going through, but If you are breeding for the right reasons, and you are bettering the breed... Its something you might have to risk. Besides having the bitches life at risk, im talking about selling the pups.

My pup has been hunting one time in his year of life. Mainly because my modes of getting there are poor. In a few months that will change but I feel bad not having him on birds more than the 2 hunt tests, the 10 training sessions, and the one preserver hunting trip. And ofcoarse the hundreds of runs hes been on. I guess theres wild birds there.

ANYWAY, IMO, all you can do is find good, sturdy, reputable people, and hope that they will do whats right. Im not trying to convince you to do one thing or the other, I'm just trying to help you fill the void.

I would say that as many dogs that go into rescue there are 10 that go to good homes. I hope this helped a little.

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Post by snips » Sun May 28, 2006 6:06 am

This takes me back to the days (long ago) when I did my first litter. I planned and reserched and found who I wanted (for my limited knowledge) and I took off valuable time from my low paying job and drove to Chicago to breed to DC Essers Duke VD Wildburg. I kept a bitch from that and she was a great dog. Unfortunatly the rest of the litter went to backyards with nobody that pursued much of any field work. I tell people that story now when they want to breed. We have come a long way from those days, and can turn down many buyers to try to get them where they need to be. I have found some of the places I think to be the best (people with money that campaign dogs) to be the worst. But they seem to be the ones that will pass off a dog at the drop of a hat. I pass up many, what would be good homes for people that do pursue the field. I guess what I am saying is it comes down to your gut instinct on someone. Yrs ago I had a litter (Rips litter) at a trial in an X pen. There was a guy there that owned most of the land around there, and the town. He rubbed me the wrong way for whatever reason (too much money to devote the time to pup). Well he kept trying to buy Rip, I kept turning him down. He kept offering me more money. I was packing up to leave and he just could not believe there was something he could not buy, I finally said "I don`t care how "bleep" much money you go, you aren`t buying this pup!" And I left. Yrs later a guy came up to me and said he could not believe I said that to that guy, that nobody ever turned him down for anything. I think back to that time if I had sold him Rip. All the great trials and times we have had. Oh well, long story, and I know you can`t keep them all, but I still believe if you have something to offer in a breeding all you can do is trust your gut and go with it. On this particulat dog thats here, my gut said no and I got convinced of otherwise. Ricks Fritz was being raised by is son in Atl. He was too much dog for the lifestyle so the rest is history. How many great dogs are stuck in those situations and what could they be in the right hands? Breeders just have to try to do the best they can by them, and thats all we can do..
brenda

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Post by EastBeast » Sun May 28, 2006 7:00 am

How many Rotti's have nothing to guard, how many Shepard's have no sheep? And you can go on and on. If the dog is in a good home and is loved and cared for, what's the problem? I'm not much sure of the difference between a kennel run or a fenced in yard - oh wait! my fenced in yard is much, much bigger than a kennel run. How many hunting dogs live their life in a kennel, only to be brought out for hunting season?

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Post by pear » Sun May 28, 2006 7:51 am

EB I think you missed the point... Maybe I have but... Ideally bird dogs should be placed in homes, where they are hunted, as well as a big part of the family. No dog should be bought or placed, based on vanity. Maybe if more breeders used this philosophy, the Rotti’s would have something to guard and the Shepherd’s would have sheep…”pear”
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Post by snips » Sun May 28, 2006 8:02 am

Thats a very good point, and no. 1 in my mind. BUT, how, when you sell a pup be sure that person won`t change their mind when they see the activity level of their 'pet" thats bred for hi energy to be an all day hunter? This dog in my kennel (boarding) owner bought a shock collar to keep him from eating yd plants. UGH. I guess everyone has what is important to them, I feel like some of this behavior would not be as big of issue if the dog got to run off some energy or found out what a higher pupose was. My way of thinking. I tend to believe pet homes are where the majority of pound dogs come from, maybe I am wrong. I know some are from messed up training pursuits, but many people that buy dogs for pets are not prepared for what they get into. I knew of a lady that was taking her 4 yr old Shorthair to the pound or eating the cookies she made for her son in the war. Dogs are just too disposable these days, the 1st little thing people can dump them. My thoughts are if people buy a dog for what t was bred for they are more prepared to deal with them. The other breeds are less likely to drive someone nuts if they are not guarding, altho they may end up in the pound for biting or killing someone. How many Border Collies are dumped because they endlessly chased cars, or the neighbors horses. If you buy one of these dogs for their purpose and give them a focus chances are much better of leading a happy life.
brenda

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Post by EastBeast » Sun May 28, 2006 10:48 am

No, I understand the point. And I agree with you. I see lots of over-fed, underworked (mentally & physically) dogs that some people have no business "owning". And you can't be sure that people won't change their minds :( I am not a breeder but can sympathize with the difficulty of that decision. What more can you do but trust your gut? Nothing is certain. But you at least worry :) I was looking for a birddog for a good long while - and have to say I was turned off by some "breeders" who were just "bleep" desperate to sell a dog. So, all I was getting at before was that if you can get it into a good loving home that will see to it's needs, even if it doesn't get to hunt, the dog is already ahead of the game.

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Post by LSKGSPs » Sun May 28, 2006 11:34 am

BUT, how, when you sell a pup be sure that person won`t change their mind when they see the activity level of their 'pet" thats bred for hi energy to be an all day hunter? This dog in my kennel (boarding) owner bought a shock collar to keep him from eating yd plants.
That's exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned that you can't control the actions of the buyer or adoptor beyond the end of your own driveway. While involved in Rescue, I would literally do backgrond checks on applicants, screen 30 or 40 phone inquiries, verify Vet. records, spend hours acquainting the people with the breed and what the breed generally requires to help it be the right fit for a home and then do home visit after home visit before a family was selected. And that was generally only for one dog at a time. Exponentially, for a litter of eight the job becomes unmanageable. And even when the selection was made in good faith I had to (in the adoption agreement) reserve the right to visit the dog and remove the dog from the home if the conditions of adoption were not being met. "Extreme" some might say. I only had to do that a few times. And each time I believe the dog was best served. One case developed when I drove over to see how this little nine month old was doing. No answer at the door. But I did hear mournful barks and howls from the side yard. Looking over the fence I saw the "pup" tied to a stake with the rope wrapped around his legs and stomach......no water----laying in the full sun. A call to the local PD and Humane Society got the dog freed that day. I reclaimed it without argument because of the verbage in the adoption agreement. The other cases were just as egrigious.

The explanation the "man" of the household offerred......."Well after a couple weeks of the dog chewing the furniture and urinating in the house along with digging the yard up...we had no choice but to tie it out. Well, when the interviews were being done, there was only one wage earner and the dog would not be left alone for 12 hours a day. Turns out that after the adoption...the wife went to work and the kids lost interest. So you just never know.
Dogs are just too disposable these days, the 1st little thing people can dump them.
Before I placed a dog I would always have it chipped with myself as the contact. There were provisions in the contract that provided a time frame and conditions under which that contact info would be changed to the new owner. More than once I received a call from the Humane Society of an owner turn in. Why.....People just got tired of the dog, were embarrased to call me and return it, thus dump it. Rescue dogs are no different than the pups from the finest breeding..........Far to often the decision to purchase or adopt a dog/ pup is an emtional issue that turns into reality at a later date. When reality sets in...often times the damage is done. Yep, I know a responsible breeder should always be willing to take a puppy back and I have only run across one who refused..........But far to often by the time the pup is returned the DAMAGE has been done.
I have found some of the places I think to be the best (people with money that campaign dogs) to be the worst. But they seem to be the ones that will pass off a dog at the drop of a hat. I pass up many, what would be good homes for people that do pursue the field.
That is the ultimate paradox............and very true. What follows is absolutely my private opinion and does not apply to all...But it does apply in many cases. Far to often we run across the very competitive field trialer who sees his dogs as an extension of himself. If the dog wins.....he wins....he is the big man on campus....he is "DA Man".........while his dog sits in the hot sun tied to a stake with no water. Should that dog not win......he sees that as direct reflection on himself...he thinks that others see him as a failure. This is intolerable to him.....so the dog pays the price....a HEAVY PRICE. If repeated sessions with the e-collar do not work and out of control Alpha Rolls on the dog don't work.....the dog is dumped. Sometimes along the road on the way home.....sometimes at the pound....sometimes the fate is worse.
AGAIN..........I am not painting with a brush way too large here....But if honesty prevails.....the truth is....I think we all know or have met competitors out there on the circuit who fit that profile.
So, agreeing with Brenda............a competitive field trialer is very often the last place a pup should go. So where?????

In my mind I am beginning to believe that if I want to further my line of dogs in the field then that is my responsibility. I can't legitimately turn that responsibility over to another trialer. I need to keep one or two pups and do the work myself with them The rest of the litter would in a perfect world go to family homes to be trained gently and compassionately.........Hunting trips where the companionship is most important not the number of dead birds. Water to play in when it is hot and kids to protect, good food and medical care and a soft bed in the house at night.....Ah, the perfect world. (The "hunting" and/or hunting training component of the perfect world could just as easily be an Agility home, a Runner's home, a Fishing home, a Hiking home...........in general a loving home that understands the dog's needs and provides for them.)

So, for me the question remains. Do I breed two pups for myself or do I buy two pups from proven stock and allow them to be the best they can be. Do I breed and assure two pups a good home and hope for the best with the rest or buy two and have that breeder assured of a good home for those two?

I have a good friend who used to breed fabulous EPs some years ago. He tells me, everytime we get into this discussion that every time he placed a puppy he added the potential for future "issues" to his plate. Field Trialers (all venues of competitive field events) unhappy with dog.........families that found out dog was too much for them.....hunters who thought they were trainers complaining that the dog is gun-shy and wanting their money back and the list goes on and on, according to him. I believe that.......Is that true?
He says now that he would never breed again.....He will buy.

Enough "soap" from this "box"....I apologize for being lengthy, but this is a subject which for me stirs more concern than most any issue. Maybe the Rescue background forces me to see the issue differently.

LSK

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Post by GsPJustin » Sun May 28, 2006 12:40 pm

snips wrote:Thats a very good point, and no. 1 in my mind. BUT, how, when you sell a pup be sure that person won`t change their mind when they see the activity level of their 'pet" thats bred for hi energy to be an all day hunter? This dog in my kennel (boarding) owner bought a shock collar to keep him from eating yd plants. UGH. I guess everyone has what is important to them,
If I had a litter I wouldn't sell a pup to a guy in a sweater vest, a "Over tattooed man on a Harley, Or a person that doesnt look like then own a gun. The list goes on but,
My dad alwasys says " Theres a sucker for every deal." They might not be suckers on this deal but theres definatly a right person.

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Post by snips » Sun May 28, 2006 12:55 pm

I think some of our best owners are #1-good home, and #2-have the dog trained(by us) for hunting or more. I know what people are thinking, (we want more money) but we get to start many of our pups (the right way) and then finish them, and we know what has been done with them in their training. We can advise the owner the right way to keep them maintained or they can bring them back for tune-ups. If someone needs help trying to train the dog themselves (which I am all for) then we can offer it. We can also benifit in our breeding program by seeing and training what we produce, so no one knows more about our dogs than we do. Al, you are very thouough, obviously, and with the quality breeding you are planning you should not have a problem placing them in quality homes. Hoping for good homes is one thing, but then there are the acceptional homes that are a cut above the rest, like Greg Jennings, Grant, Laurie, Jon, Henry, on & on...... :!:
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Post by gundogguru » Sun May 28, 2006 1:51 pm

If I had a litter I wouldn't sell a pup to a guy in a sweater vest, a "Over tattooed man on a Harley. GsPjustin you should not judge a book by it's cover. I'm not sure how old you are but with a remark like that I think Farley young. I'm very heavily Tattooed and I ride a Harley. So what your saying is that you would not sell me a puppy. That's to bad. you don't get to know a person before you pass judgement. I'm the type of person you see me walking down the street and you look the other way. old women clutch there purse's. and Little kids look at me from behind there mothers skirts.

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Post by LSKGSPs » Sun May 28, 2006 1:53 pm

Brenda, I could not agree more. Even to the point of considering making a provision in any contract for sale of a pup, a clause that requires the buyer to send the dog to one of a specific list of trainers for field training.

Now hold on Board, let me explain. There certainly are many situations where that would not be required depending on the experience of the buyer etc. But if a buyer presented themselves to me as wanting a pup that they could train themselves; and they had no past expeience doing so....I might very well include that clause. There is no excuse for an inexperienced owner ruining a good dog by a trial and error shotgun approach to training. There are great artists in this country, great plumbers, great electricians, great dentists and great surgeons. We use them as needed. And there are great dog trainers. A dog with the potential to be a good hunting partner or great trial dog...deserves the best start possible. And for most first time owners that start will be with a great trainer. The cost of three or four months of professional training for a life time of quality companionship is small compared to the frustrations suffered by both dog and owner for inappropriate, incomplete or dangerous training practices. The owner then has a responsibility to spend time with the trainer and dog while in training to learn how to reinforce lessons and how to handle the dog. To train a young dog a few things are mandatory (IMHO) ....experiance, knowledge, time, space and birds, birds, birds and more birds. Most first time owners have none of those. With a very few exceptions there is no part of this country where a quality dog trainer cannot be reached in a drive consisting of no more than two days.

The success that I have had with this little girl are 90% the result of the great initial training she received starting at 9 mos. old. The other 10% is the trainer taking the time to teach me the tools to use with her and then sticking to his program. And even now, even going forward now with a ton more experiance.....future pups that I plan to compete with will follow the same route........a pro to start them right.

LSK

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Post by ezzy333 » Sun May 28, 2006 3:03 pm

Now hold on Board, let me explain. There certainly are many situations where that would not be required depending on the experience of the buyer etc. But if a buyer presented themselves to me as wanting a pup that they could train themselves; and they had no past expeience doing so....I might very well include that clause. There is no excuse for an inexperienced owner ruining a good dog by a trial and error shotgun approach to training. There are great artists in this country, great plumbers, great electricians, great dentists and great surgeons. We use them as needed. And there are great dog trainers. A dog with the potential to be a good hunting partner or great trial dog...deserves the best start possible. And for most first time owners that start will be with a great trainer. The cost of three or four months of professional training for a life time of quality companionship is small compared to the frustrations suffered by both dog and owner for inappropriate, incomplete or dangerous training practices. The owner then has a responsibility to spend time with the trainer and dog while in training to learn how to reinforce lessons and how to handle the dog. To train a young dog a few things are mandatory (IMHO) ....experiance, knowledge, time, space and birds, birds, birds and more birds. Most first time owners have none of those. With a very few exceptions there is no part of this country where a quality dog trainer cannot be reached in a drive consisting of no more than two days.
I can't think of a post that I would disagree with more. When a pup becomes more important than people we are straying well off of the reservation. Brenda had brought up some good points that are good to discuss but probably have no good answer. But when we get to the point that no one that isn't an expert (50 miles from home) should not be granted ownership and control over the dog they just paid a lot of money for then we are missing the boat somewhere.

Brenda talked about her first litter, which she shouldn't have been allowed to have since she was a novice. Eveybody that is successful started some where and had many failures. I've raised and trained many dogs and I'm still a novice but if I want to train my dog my way to do whatever I want it to do then I have that right. And my dog will be just as happy as a dog that is trained by an expert in his way to do what he wants it to do. For a matter of fact, the dog that is in a loving home is probably the happiest dog on the planet regardless of what it has been trained to do. I understand that I would liike my dogs to have the opportunity to hunt and make a name in trials or what ever but I doubt if the National Champion is any happier than the dog I take hunting that flushes too many birds or won't retrieve.

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Post by snips » Sun May 28, 2006 3:46 pm

You are obviously right too Ezzy. I still have myself in mind when I started. If the people that owned Duke or Lancers Answer had turned me down for breeding because I was a nobody I would never have started with some of the wonderful dogs I have in my bloodline. It is the same sinerio when deciding on the breeding of a stud dog. I have learned to be surprised (pleasantly) by someone that was turned down by someone and I have decided they needed a chance. I do like selling to people that already have experience with training 1 dog, being a shorthair or another breed. They are the ones that have already learned and made their mistakes, hopefully. I am always skeptical on selling to locals. Around here there is alot of "let `em ride in the back of the truck mentality," but one guy we did like bought a pup from us. We saw him once when he brought him back for a month of steadying to pigeon launchers. He did the rest. His dog has 2x Ch in NSTRA, and he placed in 2 Regionals, and won the Al Regional this yr. Who would have thought? So, sometimes people give you a pleasant surprise :wink:
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Post by GsPJustin » Sun May 28, 2006 4:38 pm

gundogguru wrote:If I had a litter I wouldn't sell a pup to a guy in a sweater vest, a "Over tattooed man on a Harley. GsPjustin you should not judge a book by it's cover. I'm not sure how old you are but with a remark like that I think Farley young. I'm very heavily Tattooed and I ride a Harley. So what your saying is that you would not sell me a puppy. That's to bad. you don't get to know a person before you pass judgement. I'm the type of person you see me walking down the street and you look the other way. old women clutch there purse's. and Little kids look at me from behind there mothers skirts.
Like you said, you’re the type of person that people turn away from. Would your first judgment be " I bet he’s a great dog owner"???...... I’m not saying your not, I’m also not saying that I wouldn’t talk to you and get to know you before I sold you a pup. My first thoughts wouldn’t be good but they would change if you the right person. There’s for to the man in the clothes I know that. But off first impressions I would rather sell a dog to a man with pheasants on his wall than a Shakespeare book in his hand. Get what im sayin?
Now see there are things we aren’t totally clear on. There’s a difference in what I mean and what you meant. When I think of and over tattooed man that rides a Harley I think of a guy who hasn’t ever owned anything but Pit-bulls and Dobermans, and rides with a biker gang and such. Even if you have owned those dogs in the past, I would be able to tell if I thought you where a man that got the dog for protection or got the dog to do what it does best. I know quite a few people that have a lot of tattoos and ride Harleys that have Brittany’s. But there not like the ones you see on TV. :wink: Sorry for being unclear.

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Post by gundogguru » Sun May 28, 2006 5:13 pm

Kool

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Post by AHGSP » Sun May 28, 2006 8:04 pm

Good timing on this topic..... I have been tossing around the idea of requiring a JH Title on pups before Full Registration is given to new owners as some added insurance and had planned to ask on here what everyone thought of such an idea. Like I said, just kinda tossing it around.... So what would you think if a breeder required this from you? Would you be turned off by such a contract?

My thinking is twofold; get more people involved with their pups and their local clubs and also give myself insurance the pup is getting to do what it is bred for and not just another forgotten pet on a chain in the backyard. Don't cook me for the thought, it's just a thought at the moment :D
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Post by Ryan » Sun May 28, 2006 8:23 pm

AHGSP wrote:Good timing on this topic..... I have been tossing around the idea of requiring a JH Title on pups before Full Registration is given to new owners as some added insurance and had planned to ask on here what everyone thought of such an idea. Like I said, just kinda tossing it around.... So what would you think if a breeder required this from you? Would you be turned off by such a contract?

My thinking is twofold; get more people involved with their pups and their local clubs and also give myself insurance the pup is getting to do what it is bred for and not just another forgotten pet on a chain in the backyard. Don't cook me for the thought, it's just a thought at the moment :D
I know a guy that when he breeds his dog he requires that puppy owners get atleast a FDJ title of thier puppies.

I persoanlly dont believe in such a thing because not everyone may be wanting to hunt with their dog they may have bought the dog as a running partner or for a fishing buddy. If they spend 800 bucks on a puppy and they just want to run with it every morning and or evening its their buisness to do so. Not everyone beleives in hunting or doesnt want to hunt with their dog.

Now if say they bought a puppy off of you and they want to breed it then you could tell them to insure the hunting instinc stays with the breed you require a certain title.

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Post by Ayres » Sun May 28, 2006 11:13 pm

When it comes to buying and selling a dog and contracts, anything is ok as long as the buyer and seller agree. There are some people that will adamently tell you "I'd NEVER buy a dog with such a contract! I bought my dog, I get to say!" There are others who might say, "Yeah, no problem. I had that intention anyway." Still there are others who might say, "Ok, that's not my thing, but if it's what I have to do then I'm agreeable."

Basically, you'll turn some people away with such a provision, and of those people you turn away some will be turned off on principal alone while others will be turned away because they don't want to comply. Others will still agree, either because they would do that anyway or because it's not that much of a hinderance. What you may run into, though, is that some people that want to agree will ask that if you want such a provision, you have to do the training and put the title on.

I, personally, wouldn't require such a specific requirement unless I was able and willing to do the work to fulfill it - make it easier on the buyer.
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Post by LSKGSPs » Sun May 28, 2006 11:23 pm

Unfortunately while typing that last post (about contract issues with pups) I said (to myself) there are going to be people who completely miss the real message trying to be conveyed. I should have stopped and found a way to express it better.

I appreciate your disagreement Ezzy, but to clarify a bit.

I seemed to be saying that I would take somebody's money and then tell them what they could or could not do with the pup.

Nothing could be further from my intent. I would have better made my point by saying that I would be inclined to not sell a pup to them unless they agreed to send it to a pro to be started. The selling decision is mine. I think there are enough buyers willing to do that, to make it unnecessary to sell to one who would not. But to repeat from past posts......after the buyer leaves your driveway, you have lost control of what happens. I would rather see a pup going off in the hands of owners who are at least interested enough to embrace the idea of using a pro, rather than one that refuses to even consider the idea.

I can't believe that your heart does not pump faster and your stomach turn when you watch a young dog being fried by an e-collar by an owner who thought they knew how to use one.
Or by an e-collar being used on a dog that is out of sight only to come screaming out of cover, eyes ablaze running back to the owner howling, (only to never have that dog stray more than 30 feet away ever again)............and then hearing the owner announce that "I'll teach this dog to come or else." Or the owner who is gunbreaking the dog by tying it out and having 12 guages fired off around it. Or gun breaking the first time out hunting with a buddy and his dog. Then when the dog breaks down and is a mess here they come to your front door wanting their money back. Or spend a lot of time bitching about the lousy dogs you breed.

In closing this is a great board full of great ideas and sometimes ideas that sound bad because the writer was not clear. The concept of having pro training given in the early stages of a pups life was not an on going practice, but one that I have from time to time considered.

I will try to be more clear in the future, but I stand by my position that given three puppies left to sell and 6 buyers who want those pups......WITH EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL.....Then I would be inclined to send those pups home with the families that embraced the idea of letting a pro start the pup and teach them how to handle the dog, rather than risk the chance that a good dog would be ruined, dumped, mistreated, or worse only because this poor dog happened to be the one on which the owner was going to make all his early mistakes. To me a dog is not an easel for painting that can be tossed away when mistakes are made. A puppy is a helpless creature worthy of the best the owner can give it. And again (to repeat) a hunting home is a unique environment that poses grave risks to the pup if egos get in the way of love. As for Agility, Hiking, Running, Fishing, Camping or Therapy homes.....those are a whole different arena...arenas that I think are much less potentially destructive to a young GSP than is gun dog training.

JMHO

LSK

My comment about requiring buyers to send a pup to a pro trainer couls very well have been misunderstood

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Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 29, 2006 7:07 pm

LSKGSPs,

Oh where to begin.
I would be inclined to not sell a pup to them unless they agreed to send it to a pro to be started. The selling decision is mine.


I sure can't argue that who you sell to is your dicission. On the other hand would you agree that when you go in a store that sells clothes and they won't sell to you because they don't like the way you are dressed and they can see you do your own wash instead of sending them out to a professional? Think they call that discrimination.
I would rather see a pup going off in the hands of owners who are at least interested enough to embrace the idea of using a pro, rather than one that refuses to even consider the idea.


I can understand your reasoning here also. But do you know there are far more owners of hunting dogs that have never heard of a pro trainer than that have. They would have no idea what you are talking about when you ask about a pro trainer. And these people have good dogs. Luckily a good dog does not have to be trained to hunt and I think we forget this to many times. You only train a hunting dog to behave in the manner you would like it too. And no two people probably have the same criteria in how they want their dog to behave or perform.

I can't believe that your heart does not pump faster and your stomach turn when you watch a young dog being fried by an e-collar by an owner who thought they knew how to use one.
Or by an e-collar being used on a dog that is out of sight only to come screaming out of cover, eyes ablaze running back to the owner howling, (only to never have that dog stray more than 30 feet away ever again)............and then hearing the owner announce that "I'll teach this dog to come or else." Or the owner who is gunbreaking the dog by tying it out and having 12 guages fired off around it. Or gun breaking the first time out hunting with a buddy and his dog. Then when the dog breaks down and is a mess here they come to your front door wanting their money back. Or spend a lot of time bitching about the lousy dogs you breed
I don't know how I would feel as I have never experienced these actions. Not only have I not seen them but have never heard of anyone that has. Now that doesn't mean I haven't heard of these things before but when I have they were always hypothecal just like now. I have seen what I think is misuse but I can introduce you to people who think ear pinching is mistreatment too and would turn you in for doing it. Where do we draw the line? I don't know but I will guarantee our lines would be different as would everyone elses. Your examples were to the extreme to make your point but in reality have you experienced a dog frying with eyes ablaze that never got more tham 30 ft away again? I have hit both of my dogs hard enough that you might think they were frying but it lasted for maybe 5 mins or less. But it kept them from running on to a road and possibly being killed. And yes I think I have said or at least thought just like everyone else that I will teach the dog to come or else. And lets hope we succeed or we will never be able to have a trained dog.


I will try to be more clear in the future, but I stand by my position that given three puppies left to sell and 6 buyers who want those pups......WITH EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL.....Then I would be inclined to send those pups home with the families that embraced the idea of letting a pro start the pup and teach them how to handle the dog, rather than risk the chance that a good dog would be ruined, dumped, mistreated, or worse only because this poor dog happened to be the one on which the owner was going to make all his early mistakes. To me a dog is not an easel for painting that can be tossed away when mistakes are made. A puppy is a helpless creature worthy of the best the owner can give it. And again (to repeat) a hunting home is a unique environment that poses grave risks to the pup if egos get in the way of love. As for Agility, Hiking, Running, Fishing, Camping or Therapy homes.....those are a whole different arena...arenas that I think are much less potentially destructive to a young GSP than is gun dog training.
Who amonst us can argue with the premis that it is your choice to pick who gets the pups "ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL". Where the rub comes is they are never equal and if they were we couldn't tell. If our trial trained and bred dogs are superior to all others and deserve better care and treatment, then you have relegated most dog lovers and owners to having only inferior dogs. If this is true then it speaks even better of the French who developed a wonderful breed of dog in their backyards with out a pattern to go by other than my dog hunts real close and minds easily so I will breed her to yours that does the same thing.

I have raised and trained to varying degrees many many hunting dogs. I have never owned one that was professionally trained. I sure would have liked to but 5 kids and a stay at home mom seemed more important. Thank God though that we were able to have some nice dogs that allowed myself and my 5 kids many hours of enjoyment together in the field and even more hours that weren't as enjoyable cleaning runs, feeding, training, showing, and bragging about out dogs. And we did it together. None of them were out doing drugs or smoking pot. I can remember one year when we were on our annual trip to Kansas so the grandparents could see the kids and vice versa that we drove the 2 lane roads because we didn't have the money to pay the tolls. We even made the return trip with a Brit that a family was wanting to get rid of and we thought it should have a home. Turned out to be a littermate to the only FC at the time that was bred in Iowa. We found a good home for him after we did some work with him and ended up with a nice gundog.

Though most of us on this forum are dog fanatics and are convinced that training a dog is upper most in importance to have them perform as we think thsey should, the vast majority ot bird dog owners do not share our enthusiasm for training, Most don't even want a dog tha tis trained to the degree we talk about here. They desire a dog that is nice around the house and kids and will go out and find a bird or two for them during hunting season. And they want that dog to stay in gun range and come when called. Hopefully it will retreive also. I am not going to say they are wrong or any less of a responsible dog owner than you or I. They also have the right to do with their dog what they want just as we do. They have the right to buy where they want just as we have the right to sell where we want. But the one thing I'm sure of is they will have a s many happy contented dogs as we do. For the dog loves unconditionally and does not include any of our predulous (SP) against their owners.

Ezzy
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Post by Maverick » Mon May 29, 2006 8:07 pm

I purchased my orange and white female brittany under a non-breeding contract with the release being that if I prove the dog worthy of breeding, get her hips x-rayed and OFA'd then the non breeding portion would be released. I have shown Dixie to her CH and got her two field test titles. I have also started field trialing Dixie and my new pup Maverick.
I have kept up my end and the breeder their end. I actually see their reasoning and did not object to signing the contract at the time. There are so many "back yard breeders" out there breeding their dog with out doing their home work.
I looked after brittany rescue here in Ontario for a good long while and have seen the results of their breedings. Not that all turn out bad by why take the chance.
I don't agree with the contracts that force people into showing or field trialing dogs or loosing them.
I also see nothing wrong with breeding to a great hunting dog as long as your objective and can be honest with your self and know that your dog is really worth breeding. You also should do the hips and whatever other clearance that the breed requires.
I know that when Dixe has her first litter in the next year or so I will be sending my pups out with some sort of contract.
Just my to cents.

Mav....

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Post by LSKGSPs » Mon May 29, 2006 11:09 pm

"Ezzy".............Thank you for taking the time for your lengthy response. If you were not a member of your school debate team, they (the team) missed a golden opportunity to go to the Regional Finals every year. "Ezzy"...........your position on these issues places the other view (mine) in the difficult position of arguing against apple pie, motherhood and the American Flag. Those issues cannot be debated as being good or bad.......They are good. End of discussion.

With your arguments you have tried to appeal to the great majority by attempting to make my thoughts and suggestion so onerous as to be Un-American.

For you to say.....(see below) and then compare my position to it is so obfuscating the issue that you should strike it from your argument outline:
On the other hand would you agree that when you go in a store that sells clothes and they won't sell to you because they don't like the way you are dressed and they can see you do your own wash instead of sending them out to a professional? Think they call that discrimination.
Nothing in my prior post that were (as you will recall) were anything more than feelers for the Board to post comment on vis a vie their experiances. However, the distortion of my thoughts by your above quote serves once again only designed to appeal to the great majority of us who you seemingly would like to convince that I am myoptically viewing the entire world of hunting dogs.

To address your above statement in terms of applicability to the issue I will say this..........If a prosepective buyer for one of my pups showed up at my door to look at the litter with his own dog in the truck or car.........I would ask the owner to let the dog out of the vehicle so I could see it. If that dog seemed to cower, tail between legs, pee, roll over, growl....or any number of other objectional behavior traits......You are right......I would DISCRIMINATE in a BIG WAY.......There would be no amount of money or explanation that would ever entitle that person to one of my pups.

In so far as you saying you have not ever seen dogs abused as I described..............you are fortunate. I have. It happens. Maybe not in your circle..........but I have seen it. And I might add.......I have seen it more in the field hunting than I have ever seen it with pro trainers and field trialers. Why? Simple, there are more hunters than trialers.

You took the time to write a well reasoned reply. My respect for your views would under normal circumstances compel me to respectfully address each point. However, my "gut sense" of it is that the Board may be (at this point) a bit less than enthused about reading our "point-counter point notes." Several other members have posted very interesting posts on this thread. Some tossing out the same original thought and intent I had........simply put..."Hey, whatdo you guys and ladies think of this idea or practice?"

Not one, (nor did I) definitively state an ongoing practice or a position that was inflexible. They just asked for input, thoughts and suggestions. Having to defend a practice that you don't practice is impossible to do.

And per chance a member may read your responses and think me an elitist field trial person promoting Pros.........Let me be clear. LOOOONG before I ever turned a GSP loose at the Start Line in a Field Trial...........I was the only Brittany Rescue Organization in this State for 15 years. LOOOOONG before I ever turned a GSP loose in a Hunt Test I hunted over some really great Brits and ES in Kansas, Missouri, New York, Illinois and Arizona.

So "Ezzy" I am the common, hunting guy with just a dog that I love, that you slant your arguments towards. It's just now I view the entire dog world in a much different way than you might. I have seen it from the eyes of a wide eyed novice with a new Brit puppy 35 years ago, who did his best to love and train the dog gently...(no e-collars then). I have seen it from the eyes of a guy who was ridiculed by his buddies when he would not shoot his ES in the butt with #7s, because the dog hunted for itself. I have seen it from the eyes of a man who has gone out at 2 AM in the morning to pick up a Brit found half dead because it was kicked and beaten almost to oblivion. I have seen it fron the eyes of a person who enjoyed intense joy seeing a rescue Brit flourish with its' new family. And yes, I have seen it from the eyes of a person who was very proud when his little GSP bitch did well in competition.

Yes Ezzy, I may be overly protective and demanding with the buyers of my pups. But I have earned that right!

So let us agree to disagree and part this thread as friends. I sincerely understand and respect your views......and I know many understand and respect mine. In a perfect world....what more can either you or I ask for?

LSK

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Post by LSKGSPs » Mon May 29, 2006 11:24 pm

Mav....I can't remember now which board I saw the photos of you and your Brit on......But, I did (seems like she was on a table, you were standing behind her and there was a lady to your right)....You have a real "Keeper." Nice job with that little girl.

As far as your "contract" is concerened. I'm sure you have read the prior posts and pretty much understand my views. In the end Mav....those future pups are your responsibility. I believe that you (and others in the same position) have every right to decide what course of action you should (and need) to take to protect and insure their future.

LSK

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Post by Ayres » Tue May 30, 2006 1:59 am

LSK, thank you for your reply. You did a good thing by keeping emotions in check and replying with class. Viewpoints that are not directly competitive on some issues but polar opposites on others have a tendency to become rantings and ravings rather than reasoned thoughts and contributions, and I think you successfully avoided such a situation.

As far as the viewpoints go, I can see it from both sides and I really don't think they are competing, just premised differently.

LSK wants to prevent animal abuse through misinformed and ultimately inhumane training practices. She has witnessed firsthand the results of such actions and knows that they are abhorrent. In order to prevent that from happening, she has thought of developing a system whereby a new puppy owner would be contractually obligated to comply with certain provisions designed to ensure an abuse-free training and life of the dog.

Ezzy wants to keep a freedom of ownership for the normal hunting person/family. Such individuals sometimes can't afford the expense of professional training, and/or do not want their dogs to perform at such a strict, standardized level in the field. (These dogs are sometimes referred to as "meat dogs" by the purebred crowd, sometimes in a derogatory fashion, and much undeserved.) He has witnessed firsthand the results of a family that grows together through training teamwork, and has seen the resulting joy exuberated from such a dog that is content with just being loved.

I can't see Ezzy as wanting the situation to happen that LSK wants to prevent. I can't see LSK as wanting to prevent the situation that Ezzy describes. See where I'm going here? You both are describing two different situations.

What it really boils down to is that LSK believes such contractual provisions may be the best or only way to prevent her feared situation that she describes. Ezzy believes that such contractual provisions will have too great of an impact, and have an overreaching effect on otherwise loving families like he describes. Each person is entitled to their opinion about whether the cost/benefit analysis justifies the use of such contractual provisions, and each opinion can be debated and seen as valid. This situation will always come down to a personal choice based on one's own experiences. Agreeing to disagree on this particular point is probably the best thing.

:wink:
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Justus James Ayres SH CGC - Justus - Rest in Peace, buddy.
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Post by ezzy333 » Tue May 30, 2006 6:23 am

LSK, I don't think I would agree to disagree. In reality we are on the same side. I do think we stated different options to get to where we both are headed. You say you were just throwing out some thoughts for us to discuss and I threw some back. I think that is what we wanted.

Thank you for your reasoned answer. Hope mine fit the same catagory. And NO I won't agree to disagree. We never got to that point.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

Colleen

Post by Colleen » Tue May 30, 2006 7:47 pm

Brenda,
Getting back to your original post, I agree that it is completely a shame to have bird dogs who don't hunt. But, as a recent ex-resident of the southeast, I also know how difficult and expensive it is to do those things in an area with poor wild bird hunting and few events. While we lived in Charleston, the only hunting was: guided hunts (like those our breeder did for a living); or memberships to private hunting preserves (somewhat akin to hunting cows or fishing in your own fish tank). The closest AKC events were in Walhalla - about 6 hours away. And NAVHDA? Yeah, North Carolina was the closest. We joined the Charleston Pointing Dog Club in its infancy a few months before moving, but they never got it together to hold any events before we left. I am pleased to say I was forwarded mail from them, and they are sponsoring a club trial, an AKC hunt test, and training sessions this year. However, when we lived there, there were no options for us other than traveling very extensively and maxing out our credit cards - with me in grad school and him working on his undergrad. We once got quail for training, from the only guy in the Charleston area who hatched quail (or any game bird, for that matter), and it was his last hatch. The birds couldn't even fly.

Since moving to Phoenix, we have joined and become very active in a pointing dog club, we train our dogs at least 1-2 weekends per month, we have started Biscuit in hunt tests, and we absolutely cannot wait for quail season, which is apparently great around here. We are happier now that our dogs get lots of bird work, and the dogs are happier. There has been a change in their dispositions that I can't describe, but I know it's there.

LSK, just out of curiosity, how do you expect people to learn to train dogs, if first-time bird owners should all send their first dog to a pro? When dog #2 comes around, they won't be any more experienced. So where does a dog owner start? At what point are they allowed to begin training their own dogs? Our two GSPs are our first bird dogs, and we have trained them. We have done a lot of research - books, websites, etc, we are forever indebted to a breeder out here (Desert Rose Kennels) for their guidance and help, and we are getting lots of help from other members of the pointing dog club. Yes, we have made mistakes, but our dogs are far from ruined. One of our dogs is particularly talented, and several people have suggested we send her to a pro, because if she's that good with us, imagine how good she'd be if a pro trained her! No thanks. Personally, we wouldn't be nearly as satisfied with her (future)success if we gave her to someone else to train. It's such a bonding process, and there is nothing better than seeing the dogs' progress and realizing that we are helping them become better. Just the other side of the coin, from precisely the puppy buyer you would turn down.

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Post by snips » Tue May 30, 2006 8:52 pm

Colleen, you are 1 in a million. There are few people that will take the time it requires to train their own dog. + many people don`t have the place. Like Delmar says tho, if the desire is there, you can train in Central Park. These people live across town from me, with access to birds anytime, with functions in all surrounding cities all the time. I guess I don`t have the patience for it, knowing how hard I used to work at working my dogs. I did not do this full time forever, I used to have a 6-7 days a week job. :x
brenda

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Post by LSKGSPs » Tue May 30, 2006 10:32 pm

Hi Colleen............

Please check your mail box on the site......

I sent you a note earlier. If it is not there or you have
not been able to open it...let me know on the board.

LSK

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Post by gsp-fan » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:15 pm

hello -
I have been a lurker for quite awhile on this board and just had to speak up on this subject. I am not a hunter or field trail person but own a gsp. It is our first gundog and love him to pieces. I am a pet owner but because we know our dog is a hunter and needs to work we do that for him.

A little background: We bought our dog from what was suppose to be a really good breeder come to find out later the dog had issues, we took him to a great gun dog trainer and his issues were resolved. He was trained to use a e-collar.

We live on five acres (fenced) and have another 20 acres up in the mountains. We still take our dogs out to explore off lead 3 times a week. Our dogs are walked twice a day when not taken out to explore. Our dogs are pets they live in the house and sleep in our beds and they are my kids.

I would own another gsp in a heartbeat I have fallen in love with the breed but have been told by many many breeders they will not sell to me because I do not hunt/show or do trails. This is sad to many because I feel like they do not realize how lucky one of there dogs would be to have us.

I just needed to get on my soapbox and tell my side from a pet owner.

Thanks a really like this forum.

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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:44 pm

Welcome aboard GSP fan. That is a great first post. It's good to take a position and give a reasoned explanation at why. I think you did that. Stay with us and post when you have an opinion or a question. There are many real good people on here that can help.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Post by Ayres » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:01 pm

Welcome to the board gsp-fan! I sincerely hope you can stick around and continually provide another perspective on things. This is a site about our love for our gundogs, so please feel free to jump in on any topic. :)
- Steven

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Wind River's JK Black Tie Affair - Tux

craigm

Post by craigm » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:34 pm

I've been lurking on this forum for some time now and thought maybe I should finally add my $.02. I have a Griff pup that just turned 13 mo. today. She is running in her NA test this weekend. I'm doing it as a favor to the breeder as, personally, I have no interest in running hunt tests. I bought this pup to be part of my family and to hunt. I would not buy from a breeder that required me to run in hunt tests. They probably wouldn't sell me a dog either, but, the pup couldn't find a better home. I'm not a trainer and don't require my dog to be finished to the level of many on these boards. Honestly, I hunted her all last season on wild pheasants and at 6 to 7 months old I could be perfectly happy with the skills she showed with no further training. Quite impressive I thought. I knew enough to keep my mouth shut and let her figure it out. I am, however, taking her to a pro because my thinking is, if I had that much fun with a young untrained pup, think of the fun hunting behind a finished dog.

I'm straying from the topic I realize, so my point is, you can not guarantee what type of homes your pups are going to and the fact that someone is putting the pup through a certain level of testing does not mean that they are also providing a better home. My opinion is that you are better served going with instinct than to add a buch of un-enforceable clauses to a puppy contract.

GSP4619

Post by GSP4619 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:42 pm

Welcome !!!!

That was a nice post and you helped me to be able to word mine. It is nice to meet another GSP owner who don't hunt but still will do anything to keep them active and have a purpose. When I got Ava I had not a clue what she was all about she was a rescue. After I did find out all that she would need as far as stimulation and exercise. I did what I thought would make up for her not being out their doing what she was bred to do. Every morning she gets 45 mins off leash at the park to do her thing. After work the same maybe even longer, their is a group of dogs she hangs out with. She gets a after dinner strole and also after my husband gets home from work they play with the ball out in our yard wich is a nice size until I get home. I take her almost every place I go. Except in the heat I won't go on errands with her becasue I would have to turn the car off . So I keep her home to suck up the air while I am out sweating LOL.

When we are out their in the morning and no one is around and we are walking and I see her start to do a point and she slowing looks to see where I am, I think to myself is she wishing I was their with a gun ready to shoot down what she is about to flush out? Just those kinds of thoughts. I can't explain it really, it's like everytime she sees a bird and starts her stalk or whatever it's like she is looking at me to make a move. All I say is good girl and when she runs after and comes back with that butt shaking from side to side like look what I did mom did you see that?? LOL Then I really praise her and give her a good pat on the butt telling her how good she is and great job LOL . I have to be honest their are times I beat myself in thought thinking am I doing right by not hunting with her. Then at the end of the day we are unwinding on the couch and she has her head on my lap and lets out that contented sigh that dogs do, I smile and say Ava I think we are doing alright LOL. Having met and made friends with breeders, I really admire all the heart and work and soul they put into what they do for the breed of that dog they are breeding. Then I came into this room and I hear all the great brags and all the picture's of their dogs out their in the field, the water shots and what they caught. Also hearing the ones who breed tell their stories of how their dogs turned out I think it is so great they really work hard to get a good gun dog. It really makes me feel really good for them. I don't think I would ever get a GSP from a good breeder who bred for that purpose. I feel like I would be doing harm or in a way insulting, well not insulting but disrespecting what that person had done to produce that great gun dog. Heck you guys understand what I mean I hope LOL. Hope that sounded right. And the next GSP I get I will do the same rescue. I think it is wonderful how much effort and time you spend with your dogs and it's great you have all that room for them to run and after your story I get torn cause I think maybe it is ok. But other then you I think how many GSP owners out their do as much as you and even I do with our dog/dogs? I will bet not many out their. Their are Probably more with hunting families and more that did not do what was expected of them and chained all day out in a 2x4 of a yard or turned into a shelter until someone comes along who will take alot of time to be with them. So thats why I will do another rescue because I feel not that they are misfits just that they where the ones who where not ment to be out their in the field. I hope I am explaining how I feel the right way LOL. I have to say I have read and reread each post for a couple of days now just to make sure I said mine right LOL.

Thanks!!!!!

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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:45 pm

Welcome aboard Craigm. Good post! Keep posting when you have a thought or a question. Lots of people here who can answer about anything and if you have a real stupid question I might be able to help also. You see, stupid questions are the only thing I'm qualified to answer. Joshing with you a little, but do ask when ever something comes up.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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ezzy333
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Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:57 pm

GSP 4619,

You did well. You explained your feelings very well and I don't think you have a thing to be ashamed of. Yes, it would be nice to be able to get your dog out into the field, she would love it. But you are providing for her very well and she responds to that care and love. I think it is admiral tht you have thought about the fairness of getting a field bred dog. I'm not sure of the answer either and would think it might be better to stay away from a field trial breeding as I do think there is more energy stored in some of them. But I do agree completely that you are doing more with your dog than the average, so congrats and keep it up and if you get a chance take Ava out in the field and let her have a "field day".

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

gsp-fan
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:48 pm

Post by gsp-fan » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:08 pm

Thanks to all for the warm welcome!

I should have joined right after getting our gsp instead of
hitting my head against a wall and being to proud to ask a stupid
question - from now on I know that ezzy333 will answer those!

I am still learning everyday on what to do and what will keep my dogs
from getting bored.

There are times that I feel I am cheating my dog for not hunting him -
our training wanting us to continue with his training and use him for
horseback trials because of his speed.

We did consider a rescue but due to the ages of our other dogs we knew a puppy needed to come into the pack. Also I believe that because of the issues our dog had it was meant to be that he ended up with us.

This is a great forum becuase there is nothing better than dog people.

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pear
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Post by pear » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:27 pm

GSP4619 & gsp-fan, I think it's best for these dogs to be hunted, but I realize not all dogs can be hunted nor are all dogs good hunters. My heart has a very warm spot for all those who choose to take on a rescue dog. They generally carry a lot of baggage. As well I respect those who don't feel they are cut out to deal with that baggage. I have a lady who lives just down from me that does agility with her dogs. One looks to have a lot of pointer blood in it. I've often wondered if some of these over active hunting breeds that don't, fall into hunting homes wouldn't benefit from the agility work and testing. I see my neighbor and her dogs working out all the time and see them loading up to go to tests regularly. Her dogs are always very fit looking, not too mention, always seem happy. I've actually been thinking of asking her to work with my one field trial bitch in the off-season, just to keep her in shape. Something you might consider to fill that void, and still spend time training and bonding with your buddy. Keep up the good work... Oh and ezzy, aren’t you over qualified to do the dumb questions? LOL :lol:
"When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new "puppy". Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me".

Arti
Nikki
Diamond
Bailey

GSP4619

Post by GSP4619 » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:45 am

awww gsp-fan it good that you did join and your right nothing better then dog people LOL. You will amazed at all that you see in here it's cool.


Thank you guys for the nice replies :)

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Breton13
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Location: Grand Forks, ND

Post by Breton13 » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:55 am

Just wanted to say, this has been a long but interesting thread. I am a first time dog owner, and first time hunter. I've attended dog-trials, dog-shows and have loved it for years. So I got a dog. I am not sending her to a trainer (yet, anyways), I want to do this myself, but I am getting help. I'm reading, joining the local Hunting Dog club, going to seminars and how-to classes. I'm so excited I can barely stand still. And while doing all this, my friends at the club are also teaching ME to hunt (I'm a fisher/hiker by "heritage"). She might not become a super-title-dog, but we'll make a great team yet.
So back to the thread, :wink: I can never thank the breeder enough for selling this hobby-hunter a dog. No contract (except a money-back guarantee), just "call me if you need anything". And thank you all for your thoughs an comfort.

jobird

Post by jobird » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:51 am

When my husband and I got our first shorthair about 5 years ago we wanted a dog that would fit in with our active outdoorsy lifestyle, but hunting wasn't a part of it. We got Asia on a Non-breeding contract (with conditions that had to be met if we wanted that lifted) and she started us down the road of becoming "dog people". We first started showing, and then we got interested in training her for hunting and then we got involved in field tests and now, we are looking at maybe getting involved in trialing. When we saw Asia hunt for the first time, it almost made me cry, it was amazing. During discussions with our breeder, we brought up the idea of breeding Asia and she agreed that it would be a good thing to do. We went out and met the conditions to get the Non-breeding agreement lifted (Conformation title, Field test title, OFA certification) and I researched for almost 2 years on what male to take Asia to. In December, Asia had 12 healthy puppies, and I was lucky enough to put 9 of the 12 puppies into homes where they will be used as hunting dogs. Some of those people will test and others are also interested in showing. The puppies were sold on Non-breeding contracts with conditions to have them lifted similar to the ones that I abided by. I guess what I am saying, in this long post is that sometimes you have to take a chance on "pet people" because sometimes it just takes time to develop them into "hunting dog people" and even if that never happens, I would rather see a puppy go to home filled with love and affection, than be staked out in the yard and ignored all year except for a few weeks in the fall when its time to hunt. The next generation has to come from somewhere, and we were all first time puppy owners once. Snips, I wished I lived across town from you... I would be over buying birds and training with you every chance I got. Your puppy people are missing out on a golden opportunity, but its their loss that they won't experience that part of having a GSP.

Janna

Northern_Hunting_Mom

Post by Northern_Hunting_Mom » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:46 pm

I am still surprised that Cindy of Honeyrun Kennels felt I deserved one of her pups. I can get to one NAVHDA event a year and perhaps one conformation show. Each would cost about $1000 to go to. I have a 2 yr old griffon who received a NAVHDA NA Pr III 93 pts at 6 mos old with a very green newbie behind her.

I do hunt with both my dogs and I am surrounded by grouse. Both sleep in the home, often in the bed with me. They receive excellent food at teh proper amount and have overly regular vet visits. They are happily doggy-piled by kids, cats and other dogs. They go to town to get love from people visiting every year. One German fellow fell in love with Digger last year and when he heard that Digger's grandsire was KS Kristan v Pottspien........ I kept a tight hold of that leash.

I am a novice to bird dogs, don't trial and it would take a long time to get a title on a dog. Now, my 3 yr old daughter helped with our premature breeding program. We now have 7 GSP-Griffon pups here. I think they will have an excellent start to life in my home. I have spent thousands of hours of research before I bought my bird dogs. I've bought books, magazine memberships, DVDs, videos and I am paying for my life membership in NAVHDA. I still don't feel worthy of a Honeyrun pup.

I have had 2 phone calls from people wanting to get a pup. I asked each what their home situation is, what they are hoping from their pup, how they were going to exercise a hi-energy dog and whether they hunt or are willing to learn. I turned down both. If I have 4 puppies at home at 6 mos old, so be it. They will love it and probably have grouse shot over them by then. I certainly intend to bother the lucky people who are priviledged to have one of Placer's pups. I do believe that owning a dog is a priviledge. I still don't feel qualified to breed.

I do know that I do intend to breed again but it could be years later. I also know I intend to limit breeding rights until hunting instincts and OFA certs are done. I will ensure I have the approval of the breeder I get my brood stock from and be an annoying gnat with many questions.

I did not intend to have a litter of pups now but I am not sorry for it. I intend to alter one of them, I just can't decide which one right now. I'm hoping to wait until after Digger's NA test in August. He will be just under the 16 mo restriction. I wish it could've been sooner but having one test a year and having to drive 16 hours to get to it makes it impossible.

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LSKGSPs
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Post by LSKGSPs » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:30 pm

Northern Hunting Mom.............Well reasoned and written. Probably the reason Cindy allowed you to be a companion to one of her pups is that she intuitively understood your appreciation for the value of the dog's needs.

As I have stated so many times in this thread.........It is not important that the GSP hunt. Yes, that is good. But a GSP is a loving dog(as are most sporting breed dogs) that asks only for a loving environment with an opportunity to be with its' family. I'd rather see a GSP sleeping on a comfy bed excited about the morning run with a jogger, or getting in the boat with a fisherman, or the morning run on the bike, or the morning hike, or the morning agility lesson than a Field Trial dog pacing back and forth in a sterile kennel all day.

You have done a fabulous job with your dogs and understand the essence of their needs and have respectfully set your own parameters for breeding etc in the future.

Although some of my posts have been misunderstood by some (probably my fault).......I have continually tried to stress my belief that a home for a sporting dog....need not always be a hunting home. Many other families with different interests are perfect homes. But, if a hunting home wants one of my pups then it is not an issue of me taking a superiority right to decide who passes the test and who does not. It is in fact, my responsibility to decide if the buyer in question has the knowledge and/or other resources available to do what he/she wants to do. A (hunting) buyer with no hunt training experience, with no affiliation to a local club, with no friends who have had experience training dogs is in a very difficult situation............especially if this is a first time hunting dog owner. And for the record, I would be willing to help train the pup if they had no experience and were local buyers.........for no charge.

Yes, absolutely.......all the attributes I described above can be present and still through love, compassion and understanding a first time owner with no help at all, in a loving home, with a sporting dog having the normal "heart of gold".........Yep, absolutely........that dog and that family will form a bond of happiness far greater than could be imagined.

So you question was.........You can't understand why Cindy sold you a pup. The answer is simple.........She sold you a pup for all the same reasons I would.

LSK

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ezzy333
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Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:54 am

Hunting Mom,

I would guess she sold you a pup because you wanted one and you seemed responsible to her. I don't think there are any other real important issues that should enter in to the decision.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

honeyrun
Rank: Champion
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:20 am
Location: PA

Post by honeyrun » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:22 am

I do hunt with both my dogs and I am surrounded by grouse. Both sleep in the home,
The Above is the main reason that NHM was able to get one of my pups, and the fact that she is a respected member of Upland Journal. There are several factors that enter into a transaction wtih me, it is just not a monetary one, as Jen well knows.

For the past several years (10+), I have not placed any of my pups into NON hunting homes. The 2 first pre-requisites are 1) Must be a hunting home, 2) Must live in the home with the family, not a kennel dog. My litters have all been reserved several months prior to breeding/whelping.

I spend tons of time, effort, money and resources on my dogs each year. They are hunted 5-6 months a year, they are ran in Hunt tests, shown in dog shows, tested in NAVHDA, ran in field trials and other hunting related venues. There are MANY, MANY breeders out there that do not promote hunting with their dogs. If you just want a pet, those are the breeders that you need to seek out. If you want a hunting dog, then a breeder that specializes and promotes their dogs in hunting related venues would be the way to go.

There is no reason for a non hunting person to get upset because a breeder will not place a pup with them. All they need to do is seek out a breeder that will.
Cindy Stahle
Honey Run Shorthairs
Honey Run Hounds

Home of:
CH Baretta Vom Otterbach, MH, CGC, NA1, UTII, D1, AZP1 (GSP-German Import)
AM/Can CH Honey Run's Shifting Gears, MH, NAI (GSP)
CH Honey Run's Impressive, JH, NAI (GSP)
BPIS CH Windkist's Stealin Hearts (Beagle)
GrCH Windkist Branston Talk About Me (Beagle)
CH Lanbur Windkist Rosalinda (Beagle)
Breeder of:
VC, CH Honey Run's Puck, MH
BIS, BISS, CH Honey Run's Spittin Image, CD, MH, UTI(2xs), NAII
FC Honey Run's Hannah Barbara, MH
and many others


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markj
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Post by markj » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:33 am

When I think of and over tattooed man that rides a Harley I think of a guy who hasn’t ever owned anything but Pit-bulls and Dobermans, and rides with a biker gang and such.
Justin, justin, justin, you and I have traded PMs and I hope we have a good enough relationship for me to say to you, dude, this is me too :) and yes I have owned pit bulls (for hunting) and dobies (for a good companion dog). You are young I know, I am kinda old, I can say to you, please try to find out for yourself what a person is made of. I know of many a biker that most would run from out of fear of the unknown :) when in all reality they are as human as you :) I ride with one guy, he is 6' 5 or so, scared up face Harley with loud pipes, guess what? he is a minister of a church, has a PHD in Psycology and loves to ride :) and is active in CMA, Christian Motorcycle Assosiation. :) I ride with a lot of guys that were former "bad guys", they have seen the light tho and made changes in their lives.

Kewl.

About selling a pup? If no one meets your "requirements" what do you do when you have a litter thast you cannot sell due to your "requirements"?

I look in the paper and see many adds for dogs, look on the interenet and see a lot of dogs for sale. Maybe some should re think the breeding process and maybe not do it. Some want so much for a pup most folk cannot afford, then some want a dog to be started by a pro? Who has 500 a month for this? Some do some dont, more dont than do I would imagine.

For me? I have had a litter here and there, but not indiscriminatly, if I do not have a demand I dont let them breed, plain and simple. In other words, I go out on a hunt, many of the guys I take out go once or twice see my dogs work birds and may ask me if I plan on having a litter. I take their name and number as most are not in a rush, when I have 5 or 6 names I call them all up ask if they are still intertested and go ahead with the breeding. Wont have a litter this year, low demand and many many adds in the paper. I see too many dogs are being bred and for what? Sure isnt for the money.

I also like to see kids in the house for the pup, I feel it makes a better gun dog, more loyal and the chances of it winding up in a kennel all day are less with kids, they want to play with the pup all day.

I recieved my last pup, he is black roan heavy ticked, a few of my friends are wanting a pup like him and are already asking about a breeding. I tell them hey he is only 10 weeks old, give him a chance to prove himself first :)

Nice topic and a lot of info here.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1103
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5210
"If there are no dogs in Heaven,
then when I die I want to go
where they went."
Will Rogers, 1897-1935

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Casper
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Location: northern nv

Post by Casper » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:12 am

2) Must live in the home with the family, not a kennel dog.
WHY NOT???? That right there is what bothers me. A kennel dog can be a happy healthy dog too. I guess its ok to let them live in a crate but not in a kennel :roll: :roll: :roll:

honeyrun
Rank: Champion
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Location: PA

Post by honeyrun » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:54 am

By kennel dog, it is meant as a kennel dog 24/7. Daytime kennels are ok while humans are at work, but when the humans are home, I want my dogs/pups to be with their humans.

There are many fish in the sea. If one breeder doesn't suit, then go to another. You have the right to pick your breeder just as the breeder has the right to pick their buyers.
Cindy Stahle
Honey Run Shorthairs
Honey Run Hounds

Home of:
CH Baretta Vom Otterbach, MH, CGC, NA1, UTII, D1, AZP1 (GSP-German Import)
AM/Can CH Honey Run's Shifting Gears, MH, NAI (GSP)
CH Honey Run's Impressive, JH, NAI (GSP)
BPIS CH Windkist's Stealin Hearts (Beagle)
GrCH Windkist Branston Talk About Me (Beagle)
CH Lanbur Windkist Rosalinda (Beagle)
Breeder of:
VC, CH Honey Run's Puck, MH
BIS, BISS, CH Honey Run's Spittin Image, CD, MH, UTI(2xs), NAII
FC Honey Run's Hannah Barbara, MH
and many others


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