CuriousAbout a breeding.

Ranger351 · Post by **Ranger351** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:39 pm

So saw a thread about crossing a Gsp and a lab both from strong hunting lines and I'm simply curious what you could expect from that. would you get gsp's that do better water retrieval or a lab that does better upland maybe a pointing lab?

gsp3333 · Post by **gsp3333** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:56 pm

I would guess that it is to meet the demand for the guy who can't decide on a breed. I've got a gsp that loves water retrieves and a lab that is a great upland hunter.I dont see the need or the reasoning for such a breeding.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:13 am

Here you go, give these guys a call: http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are very, very nice people and I've heard their dogs are phenomenal and show no signs of watered down pointing instinct.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:00 am

Stoneface wrote:Here you go, give these guys a call: http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are very, very nice people and I've heard their dogs are phenomenal and show no signs of watered down pointing instinct.

Looked at their site, and didn't see any mention of health clearance, anyone who breed Labradors seem to put this information at the forefront, do all their breeding stock have all there clearances?

solon · Post by **solon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:13 am

Here is another example:

http://www.wesslpointer.com/

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:05 am

Ranger351 wrote:So saw a thread about crossing a Gsp and a lab both from strong hunting lines and I'm simply curious what you could expect from that. would you get gsp's that do better water retrieval or a lab that does better upland maybe a pointing lab?

My guess it would be a crap shoot. Not saying they wouldn't be good hunters but tough to tell what your going to get.

Ranger351 · Post by **Ranger351** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:26 am

I'm not condoning a cross breeding like this nor am I looking to buy from a breeder. I'm simply curious since I often see ads for this kind of dog and ran across a mix like this once. Looked like a skinnier sportier lab but pointed and ran all day like a gsp. Swam and retrieved like a lab. From all I saw this was the best of both and a dog that was priceless to a all around hunter.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:48 am

Ranger351 wrote:I'm not condoning a cross breeding like this nor am I looking to buy from a breeder. I'm simply curious since I often see ads for this kind of dog and ran across a mix like this once. Looked like a skinnier sportier lab but pointed and ran all day like a gsp. Swam and retrieved like a lab. From all I saw this was the best of both and a dog that was priceless to a all around hunter.

Its a crapshoot as far as what you will end up with. When you cross such different breeds you can get all the good, all the bad, or any combination, all within the same litter. With the number of well bred versatile breeds and even the pointing labs, I cant imagine intentionally making this cross as a seriouse attempt at a field dog..... Just as well get a pointing labradoodle and it will be hypoallergenic also.

Jim

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:17 am

These are not new breeds yet. They are" designer dogs"," crossbreeds", also known as "mutts". Until they prove to breed true for several generations and are recognized as a breed, they remain "mutts". They may be excellent hunters, but it seems to early to assume the health, attitude, structure, drives and any other genetic features are any way predictable or uniform. Breed to breed is a cross breed or mutt. Species to species is a hybrid (fox or wolf to dog).

There are registries that will accept Xbreeds for a fee.

Ranger351 · Post by **Ranger351** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:19 am

Those wessels look nice. The one I saw looked just like that but with a full tail and more of a lab coat. I've never again seen such a dog.

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:27 pm

Can't stand designer Breeding. It is not about the breeding, it's about the $$$$$$$$$$. If you want to improve a breed for a reason then choose the right parents. Don't even agree with the AKC registering designer breeds, again $$$$$$$$. Forums like this allow you to find what you want in a dog or breeding. 30 years ago it was a lot different in terms of gathering information in a timely manner. Now, you have more answers than you could ask for in a few hours. Sorry if you disagree, but paper is important, breeding is important, and unfortunately $$$$$$$$ seems to drive the car. Reputable breeders are more concerned about the dogs than the $$$$$$$. I continue to say "You get what you pay for"!

Merry Christmas,

Doc

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:49 pm

I would expect a bunch of mutts.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:57 pm

Snips, I agree. These dogs are called mutts. They may make wonderful pets and/or hunters (or maybe not), but one thing remains for certain. They are mutts.
Oops breedings can and do occur, but I cannot imagine why anybody would intentionally do this breeding.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:14 pm

doco wrote:Can't stand designer Breeding. It is not about the breeding, it's about the $$$$$$$$$$. If you want to improve a breed for a reason then choose the right parents. Don't even agree with the AKC registering designer breeds, again $$$$$$$$. Forums like this allow you to find what you want in a dog or breeding. 30 years ago it was a lot different in terms of gathering information in a timely manner. Now, you have more answers than you could ask for in a few hours. Sorry if you disagree, but paper is important, breeding is important, and unfortunately $$$$$$$$ seems to drive the car. Reputable breeders are more concerned about the dogs than the $$$$$$$. I continue to say "You get what you pay for"!

Merry Christmas,

Doc

I agree with you if you are talking about the doodles and what have yous that pop up all over the place, but I don't think there anything wrong with someone doing something like what the Wesslpointer guy is attempting to do. The original DD/GWP breeders were highly criticized in Germany for messing with the DK/PP/WPG lines. Like today, everyone back then was focused on "improving the breed" and trying to create something that didn't fall under their strict breed standard was looked down upon. I haven't research this at all, but to my knowledge there is no pointing dog breed that originated in America. Don't you think it would be pretty cool if someone actually succeeded in making the perfect American versatile breed? Obviously "perfect" is personal preference, but I think this Wessels guy is sincere when he says he believes what he's creating is the ideal versatile hunting dog for the American hunter, and I think that's great, as long as it's done responsibly. Who knows, maybe one day the American Wesslpointer will be the most common hunting dog in America just like the DD is in Germany.

Tim

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:40 pm

I don't see where the wessel pointer is any different than the hoards of doodles that are being pushed on the public. The only difference is that the wesselpointer is a mutt being marketed to the hunting public and the doodles are being pushed on the avarage idiot.

I think it is a given that we make the best of an oops litter. Lord knows I have a couple of nice dogs that are oops pups. But I can't agree with people breeding mutts no matter how concentrated the efforts may be....

Jim

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:21 pm

Like Doc O said its a complete joke. I'm not sure why it bothers me other than I feel like the "breeders" are being irresponsible.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:12 pm

doco wrote:Can't stand designer Breeding. It is not about the breeding, it's about the $$$$$$$$$$. If you want to improve a breed for a reason then choose the right parents. Don't even agree with the AKC registering designer breeds, again $$$$$$$$. Forums like this allow you to find what you want in a dog or breeding. 30 years ago it was a lot different in terms of gathering information in a timely manner. Now, you have more answers than you could ask for in a few hours. Sorry if you disagree, but paper is important, breeding is important, and unfortunately $$$$$$$$ seems to drive the car. Reputable breeders are more concerned about the dogs than the $$$$$$$. I continue to say "You get what you pay for"!

Merry Christmas,

Doc

I agree with Doc I took a quick look at website they charge $500 more 50% for black and whites than other color combinations even from the same litters. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:43 pm

Does anyone honestly think we can't find a whole bunch of dogs from several breeds that won't do or exceed what these new "sensations" will do. This is about $$$$$....ka-ching...ka-ching....and nothing more. P T Barnum would be proud!!!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:59 pm

But just think how much traffic those sites get from topics like these.....

Crossbreeding is an art and, if practiced correctly, can fill a niche. Sometimes the results are popular, like the July hound, the Pennmarydel or the dogo argentino, which is an AKC recognized purebred despite its recent aggregate origins.

Most niche crossbreeds are not produced for a market, however.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:02 pm

First and foremost I am a Pointer owner and diehard fan who will never own any other type of hunting dog.

I would, however, like to state that I have no problems with someone legitimately attempting to create another breed of dog as long as they do their homework, start with proven parents, do the work and continue breeding through successive generations with their progeny, cull the bad progeny, make sure they only keep and sell healthy specimens, etc. I don't like the idea of designer breeds like the Labradoodles that are marketed to idiots but I do not see a problem with someone trying to create another legitimate hunting breed and marketing them to knowledgable hunters. I don't see why certain colors should sell for more than other colors. I think that is stupid but you see that with GSP's and to a certain extent with Labs anyway. Chocolate labs and black and white GSP's just to name a couple of examples. Someone mentioned money being a big driver of this breeding and marketing the first few generations as being a bad thing. To a point I agree and to a point I have to disagree. I do not think you have a legitimate claim at a new breed until you have produced many successive generations of successful and healthy progeny but remember that today in modern times we have problems with finding the roots of such popular dogs as the English Pointer, English Setter, GSP, and Vizla because there was no marketing back in the day and people did not sell dogs until after many successive generations. We have best guess scenarios with many breeds. That leaves a lot of guesswork when it comes to the ancestors of certain breeds. At least if this does someday become a legitimate breed approved by the AKC then someone will be able to get on the internet and find the great, great, great ancestor of their pup. I guess what I am saying in a long way is the earlier you market your dogs and get the name out there and the background out there the more legitimacy you add to your cause of having it approved as a new breed and the easier it is to backtrack ancestry.

I would also like to state that if anyone has a problem with the AKC approving new breeds then don't use them, use the FDSB. That is what I do.

Finally I just want to state. THANK GOD THEY ARE NOT CROSSING POINTERS AND TRYING TO START A NEW BREED.

Finally the GSP folks see what it is like when someone uses your chosen breed to experiment with. Much like the GSP and Setter guys like to add a little Pointer to hotten the line and give it a bit more run.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:19 pm

Actually, the Labradoodle was created originally as a low shedding, less space consuming service dog, so the original intent was practical. The developers were not pleased with the commercialization of their efforts.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:51 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Actually, the Labradoodle was created originally as a low shedding, less space consuming service dog, so the original intent was practical. The developers were not pleased with the commercialization of their efforts.

I had to look up your information, the developer that you mentioned, "developed" them in 1988? There are books that talk about them being bred 33 years earlier, so I would say that the guy that you are discussing has about as much claim to the development of them as about 1000 other guys that were doing it before him.

Ranger351 · Post by **Ranger351** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:40 pm

Well after some research most of the owners of this type of cross breed only have good things to say and even hunters who own them sing their praises. However most who discredit them only believe in papered pure breds. But each person is entitled to an opinion. Just like I ran into an older gentleman at a shooting range who was upset I out shot him in several rounds. I shot a remington wingmaster and he had some fancy gun he claimed was worth 6k. Well when we left he got into his range rover and me into my old beat up ford he complained my kind wont ever belong there. Too many people look down their nose at others

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:08 pm

Ranger351 wrote:Well after some research most of the owners of this type of cross breed only have good things to say and even hunters who own them sing their praises. However most who discredit them only believe in papered pure breds. But each person is entitled to an opinion. Just like I ran into an older gentleman at a shooting range who was upset I out shot him in several rounds. I shot a remington wingmaster and he had some fancy gun he claimed was worth 6k. Well when we left he got into his range rover and me into my old beat up ford he complained my kind wont ever belong there. Too many people look down their nose at others

You asked a question looking for opinions on the topic, and you got some negative ones, if you wanted only positives you could have asked for that. One link got posted and that kennel was selling these cross bred dogs for $1500 with no health clearances mentioned which MAY indicate those clearance don't exist. IMO breeding a lab without health clearances is completely unethical. Congratulations on the nice round of clays.

Ranger351 · Post by **Ranger351** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:35 pm

I agree with the prices being outrageous and they should have clear health documents. But in an oops breeding they usually sell for reasonable rates. I personally paid 600 for my gsp and am happy with him. But to me titles don't mean anything if the dog does its job well when I need it to. I'm simply curious if anyone here came across a mutt breed in the field that performed or out performed a papered dog then why look down on it for not having such noble heritage.

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:06 pm

It's not about the papered dogs. It is about the oops breedings, cross breedings, or garage breedings that cause the owners to think that they should try to replicate what they have. Where do all of these dogs end up and with whom to continue to perpetuate the sin. Unfortunately or Fortunately, as stated in a previous post.....everytime I try to go back and quote it, I lose what I have just typed........they did numerous breedings to get what they wanted for the standard. Problem today is these dogs are not going to be culled for the good of the breeding. I am in no way supporting that, but that was the way it was. You're not going to see that anymore, therefore, many dogs being sold and bred that shouldn't be.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:22 pm

Stoneface wrote:Here you go, give these guys a call: http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are very, very nice people and I've heard their dogs are phenomenal and show no signs of watered down pointing instinct.

You have to be kidding!. When you cross two breeds you have no idea what you will get even within the litter. Thats why they call them crossbreds. It takes at least 7 generations and very selective culling beforew an animal will produce something that looks like whatever you are breeding for.

Ezzy

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:39 pm

Even if you get a cross breed that is as good or better than a papered dog, what does it matter. If you cross two great prospects from two different breeds those traits will carry over. It has the possibility of being as good or better, but over time it will wear out. You quit breeding for specific traits. I don't agree with it. There are plenty of people that have breeding programs that run years. They have great bloodlines and have the pedigree and the progeny to prove what they have done. You do what you want but I will stick with my papered mutts and my pedigreed dreams. I was conned into going to a puppy barn with my neice. There are more cross breeds than purebreds. Don't tell me it's not about the money. They want more for the unpapered mutts than they do for the purebred dogs and the average Joe is in there buying them up.

Other than maybe a select few, no one is really paying attention to bloodlines or how the breeding is turning out in relations to the original blood lines. You go get what you want, I will stick with years of breeding. My pointer can be traced back to Red River Rex and further. He was a 1960's hall of famer. You won't find that with these dogs. You don't get papers.

Good luck M2C,

Joe

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:20 am

jcbuttry8 wrote: You won't find that with these dogs. You don't get papers.

That's not True Joe...You get a receipt!

Doc

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:12 am

I think saying this Wesslpointer guy is solely looking to cash in on these dogs is a bit harsh. I think that argument can be applied to any pure bred GSP/EP/GWP etc, breeder as well. It's always about the money. Why have a litter with the intention of not keeping the pups? For the money. Are you going to give your oops litter pups away for free? Nope, you're going to try to get some cash out of it like anyone else would. It sounds like he's been pretty careful to create a consistent dog and selling them at $500 doesn't sound all that outrageous to me. Comparing him to someone that is simply crossbreeding a poodle and a lab and selling it for $1000 is like comparing apples to oranges. He's put a lot of sweat into creating the "breed" and I think that is probably where his true drive is. Simply creating a breed that he would like to hunt behind. Yeah his dogs don't have papers, but why not give him the chance to create dogs worthy of papers? All this negative outlook towards creating new breeds (and I mean in a responsible healthy way) seems to be stopping possible progress. There were people who thought we had invented everything to be invented after the telephone and trying to invent anything else was a waste of time. Could you imagine if we had listened to those folks! I feel like that can be applied to this discussion as well. Yeah, his dogs may never compare to your pure bred EP/GSP when it comes to a big running trial dog, but that's not what he's breeding his dogs for. I just don't see the harm in doing what he's doing. Worst case scenario, his dogs don't get popular and the breed is never recognized. Best case, we end up with the first American pointing breed. What's so bad about that?

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:Here you go, give these guys a call: http://www.hybridretrievers.com/

They are very, very nice people and I've heard their dogs are phenomenal and show no signs of watered down pointing instinct.
You have to be kidding!. When you cross two breeds you have no idea what you will get even within the litter. Thats why they call them crossbreds. It takes at least 7 generations and very selective culling beforew an animal will produce something that looks like whatever you are breeding for.

Ezzy

Afraid I can't be as kind as ezzy. What you have is mongrol's. I can not think of one thing a breeding like that would bring to the table. Although people have dogs that are fron two different pointing breeds, they at least have the same instinct's, I wouldn't do that on ourpose either. It was done years, crossing pointer's with setter's, thay called them dropper's. They are no l;onger bred intentionally as Far as I know.

Some cross's thatworked as far a selling pup's goes were the laberdooutile and the goldendooutile. What those dos did have in common is that they were all water dogs. But I believe they were bred for no other reason than to make money. I love all dogsd but, if I did have an accidental litter of cross bred pup's I would destroy them as they were born if I didn't catch it in time for a morning after shot. Humane Society shelter's are full of unwanted mongrels and even pure breds.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:18 pm

My beef has been longstanding. We have a Pheasant preserve up here and the guy bred a Brit to a Springer. I don't recall if it was an oops or because he had them.

Produced great hunting dogs, problem is that he kept repeating it, and all the folks he sold them too thought they were the greatest things on earth.

Folks that know about my dogs will say "Oh I got one of *****'dogs" to which I do not reply other than nice dogs. I'd insult a man's wife before his dog. Anyway, it has just snowballed and I'm sure that the table has been set for them to continue these "bleep" breedings or at least believe in it.

I think I'll breed my Shorthairs to an Italian Greyhound. You know it will be a little smaller, a little faster, still have some versatility. Being a first generation Italian here, I could get rid of the German and call it an Italian Shorthaired Pointer. Much nicer than those Big Azz Spinone's

Buon Natale

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:09 pm

Doco, do those brit/springer dogs flush or point?

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:22 pm

I didn't get the sense that the Wesslpointers were a cross bred lab x shorthair. My understanding is that he took 7 American lines of GSP, 3 Lab and 1 EP and created dogs with 3/4 pointer 1/4 lab in them and then cross bred those dogs, though what I'm guessing was selective breeding. Maybe Chiendog can explain this further. I think he wrote about the Wesslpointer in his last book. My point is he seems to be dedicated to sticking to his program to produce a new breed and not just a cross bred mutt, but everyone still seems to be lumping him in with these oops litters or cosmetic laberdoodles and I just don't see the comparison.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:15 pm

DogNewbie wrote:I didn't get the sense that the Wesslpointers were a cross bred lab x shorthair. My understanding is that he took 7 American lines of GSP, 3 Lab and 1 EP and created dogs with 3/4 pointer 1/4 lab in them and then cross bred those dogs, though what I'm guessing was selective breeding. Maybe Chiendog can explain this further. I think he wrote about the Wesslpointer in his last book. My point is he seems to be dedicated to sticking to his program to produce a new breed and not just a cross bred mutt, but everyone still seems to be lumping him in with these oops litters or cosmetic laberdoodles and I just don't see the comparison.

Whats the difference between a Labradoodle and a Wesslepointer? What does one do the other won't?

Ezzy

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:36 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:I didn't get the sense that the Wesslpointers were a cross bred lab x shorthair. My understanding is that he took 7 American lines of GSP, 3 Lab and 1 EP and created dogs with 3/4 pointer 1/4 lab in them and then cross bred those dogs, though what I'm guessing was selective breeding. Maybe Chiendog can explain this further. I think he wrote about the Wesslpointer in his last book. My point is he seems to be dedicated to sticking to his program to produce a new breed and not just a cross bred mutt, but everyone still seems to be lumping him in with these oops litters or cosmetic laberdoodles and I just don't see the comparison.
Whats the difference between a Labradoodle and a Wesslepointer? What does one do the other won't?

Ezzy

My understanding of a Labradoodle is that it is a cross between a pure lab and a pure poodle. Wesslpointers on the other hand were created by taking 7 lines of GSP, 3 labs and 1 EP and cross breeding those dogs until he got a group of dogs that were 3/4 pointer and 1/4 lab. Then he selectively bred those dogs to each other to create the Wesslpointer. And now, I'm assuming, he is continuing to breed selectively so to bring out the desired characteristics he's looking for. Just like how the pudelpointer was brought about through 90 some EP lines and 10 german hunting pudel lines. That's the process for creating a new breed. As for what can one do the other won't, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the question. Are you inferring that a mutt is a mutt and it will never be as good as a pure bred?

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:56 pm

nikegundog wrote:Doco, do those brit/springer dogs flush or point?

They Stop to Flush, Point to Shoot, and Hup to Retrieve and are TriColored. Still much arguing as to the length of the bob cut tail. I think that their going to add in some Manx Cat because docking tails is cruel and unnecessary.

Thread has gone on long enough, might as well have some fun with it before Christmas before feelings get hurt. Haven't come up with a Registerable Designer name, but I'll work on it.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:18 pm

doco wrote:
nikegundog wrote:Doco, do those brit/springer dogs flush or point?

They Stop to Flush, Point to Shoot, and Hup to Retrieve and are TriColored. Still much arguing as to the length of the bob cut tail. I think that their going to add in some Manx Cat because docking tails is cruel and unnecessary.

Thread has gone on long enough, might as well have some fun with it before Christmas before feelings get hurt. Haven't come up with a Registerable Designer name, but I'll work on it.

Bringer? Sprit?

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:53 pm

Just got a great pic from a FB Friend. Almost fits the seam of this thread.

CrossBreeding.jpg