Too much dog?

live4point
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:52 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Too much dog?

Post by live4point » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:16 pm

slistoe wrote:
live4point wrote:All this talk of it being the trainers fault,and has nothing to do with the dog is nuts.
Too much dog has nothing to do with if the dog is nuts. If the dog is nuts it is nuts and it is not too much dog - it is nothing.

As for your hunting stuff - yes, I like a hunting dog. I don't hunt anymore - the dogs do. And there are places I KNOW where the birds will be. I don't need a dog of any sort to "hunt" those birds.
Go back and reread what I wrote,I didn't call the dog nuts.It takes a pretty hard headed guy to find some kind of fault in hunting where you know there are birds,but you sir win the prize.You must have an awfully good nose though,because even though I hunt areas I know hold birds,I still can't find and smell them without a dog,I might get lucky and kick one up,but it's not real productive.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:31 pm

live4point wrote:Yes,there can definately be too much dog for the situation.All this talk of it being the trainers fault,and has nothing to do with the dog is nuts.Too much dog usually means too much range.If a guy buys a dog out of big running bloodlines,but needs a dog that will hunt close and clean,he probably has bought himself too much dog for his situation and is more than likely going to be constantly fighting to keep the dog at the range he needs.The reason alot of us hunters hunt a certain piece of ground is because we know there are birds there,and we generally know the general area where the birds will be,we don't need a dog thats constantly trying to hunt the next section over.I hunt quail and pheasants that are decendants of birds I hunted 30 years ago, that eat sleep and live in the same places their ancesters did.I did my scouting of all the places I hunt many years ago,the places I hunt have always held birds,the places that I hunted several times and never found birds in I don't fool with.I don't know how many times I have called a dog in and made them hunt an area out and watch them go on point,why,because I was finding birds there before they were born.If you are constantly hunting a new area every time you go hunting,or are a new younger hunter finding your first honey holes,maybe you need a bigger going dog to scout the new area,but many of us dont,we hunt small farms and sections we know hold birds,and we need a dog that hunts closer and clean to pinpoint them.When bird season rolls around every year,I can't wait to go hunting,but with work and family obligations I never get as many days in the field as I would like,so when I do get to hunt, I, like many others am going to hunt my sure areas.Our dogs are lucky,in that we are taking them to ground where they can more than likely find a bird,they just need to work with us and be cooperative and pinpoint them.

No sirree. I disagree. If the dog is too much for the situation, then the hunter has not done the full job necessary to get that dog to hunt the way that the hunter wants. If the hunter does not have the time to work the dog...how in the world is that the dog's fault? If you buy a high drive dog, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort to get that dog to do what you want, when you want...the way you want. The dog is what the dog is. The trainer has to make them be what they need to be. It may well be that the hunter has bought the wrong dog for their needs, but again...how is that the dog's fault?

Too many folks want to dimsiss a high drive dog as "NUTS" when in actuality the dog is only doing what is normal for that type of dog. And YEAH, FWIW, you DID try to dismiss the high drive dog as a nut job. You just got caught at it. I do actually know how to read. The person who bought the dog, didn't buy the right kind of dog for their needs, ergo "the dog is nuts". WRONG!! The person who bought the wrong kind of dog for their needs is the one that messed up...not the dog. If you cannot or will not do what it takes to get a handle on the dog...don't blame the dog. If you need a dog that hunts in the same field with you, that is what you need to train the dog to do. If you cannot...don't blame the dog. Put the blame where it belongs. If we look in the mirror, more often than not we are looking at the root of the problem.

And YES I include myself when I say look in the mirror, because I am, all too often, the weak link in the chain.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Winchey » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:46 pm

I agree that most dogs labeled as too much dog are simply to much for the handler and that their are many other handlers out there capable of handling said dog. But what about AF AA dogs that are cut from a top pros string because they are runoffs, this would sort of indicate that the dog is too much for anyone, what then?

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:56 pm

Winchey -

A runoff is a runoff. It is a cull, not just as an All Age dog, but as a bird dog as well.

The best of the horseback all age dogs actually have a HUGE amount of comeback. If they didn't you would cut them loose and never see them again.

The all age dog comes back not because it has to, but because it WANTS to. That makes all the difference.

RayG

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:14 pm

Nothing has changed. The one's that get lost today still don't get placed/win. Technology has nothing to do with it.
I imagine you're right...but let's not forget that finishing is having enough days where a dog holds it together. Technology does enable folks to follow the dog, making it unnecessary for the dog to locate the handler...and some folks will use it that way. With or without it...whether trialing or not...seems to me that the joy of seeing a dog work, make game and point is being lost...otherwise we wouldn't have so many folks content to locate their dogs via satellite....or maybe I'm old fashioned.
If the dog is too much for the situation, then the hunter has not done the full job necessary to get that dog to hunt the way that the hunter wants.
In many cases, its true. But, this whole discussion begs the question, "Are the high octane dogs being bred for even the average owner/trainer?". Most dogs are trainable, however, many dogs have a default mode...training against it can be very trying to say the least.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:31 pm

JKP wrote:
Nothing has changed. The one's that get lost today still don't get placed/win. Technology has nothing to do with it.
I imagine you're right...but let's not forget that finishing is having enough days where a dog holds it together. Technology does enable folks to follow the dog, making it unnecessary for the dog to locate the handler...and some folks will use it that way. With or without it...whether trialing or not...seems to me that the joy of seeing a dog work, make game and point is being lost...otherwise we wouldn't have so many folks content to locate their dogs via satellite....or maybe I'm old fashioned.

You cannot use locator technology at a trial to find a dog under judgement. The instant you pull out the tracker, the dog is disqualified. In a trial the dog has to do it. If someone chooses to hunt with a dog via sattelite, they are certainly welcome to do so.

If the dog is too much for the situation, then the hunter has not done the full job necessary to get that dog to hunt the way that the hunter wants.
In many cases, its true. But, this whole discussion begs the question, "Are the high octane dogs being bred for even the average owner/trainer?". Most dogs are trainable, however, many dogs have a default mode...training against it can be very trying to say the least.
Again I agree... but it also begs the question...who bought the dog? It ain't the dog's fault that the hunter bought the wrong kind of dog for their needs. When situations like that happen the hunter has to man up and say to themselves that they screwed up and either work with the dog to get it to do what they want it to, or move the dog along to someone who is willing to work with that kind of dog.

Not everyone has the time, willingness, facilities to work with a dog to get them the way they want. We all understand that, I think. I ask again...how is that the dog's fault?

RayG

live4point
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:52 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Too much dog?

Post by live4point » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:37 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
live4point wrote:Yes,there can definately be too much dog for the situation.All this talk of it being the trainers fault,and has nothing to do with the dog is nuts.Too much dog usually means too much range.If a guy buys a dog out of big running bloodlines,but needs a dog that will hunt close and clean,he probably has bought himself too much dog for his situation and is more than likely going to be constantly fighting to keep the dog at the range he needs.The reason alot of us hunters hunt a certain piece of ground is because we know there are birds there,and we generally know the general area where the birds will be,we don't need a dog thats constantly trying to hunt the next section over.I hunt quail and pheasants that are decendants of birds I hunted 30 years ago, that eat sleep and live in the same places their ancesters did.I did my scouting of all the places I hunt many years ago,the places I hunt have always held birds,the places that I hunted several times and never found birds in I don't fool with.I don't know how many times I have called a dog in and made them hunt an area out and watch them go on point,why,because I was finding birds there before they were born.If you are constantly hunting a new area every time you go hunting,or are a new younger hunter finding your first honey holes,maybe you need a bigger going dog to scout the new area,but many of us dont,we hunt small farms and sections we know hold birds,and we need a dog that hunts closer and clean to pinpoint them.When bird season rolls around every year,I can't wait to go hunting,but with work and family obligations I never get as many days in the field as I would like,so when I do get to hunt, I, like many others am going to hunt my sure areas.Our dogs are lucky,in that we are taking them to ground where they can more than likely find a bird,they just need to work with us and be cooperative and pinpoint them.

No sirree. I disagree. If the dog is too much for the situation, then the hunter has not done the full job necessary to get that dog to hunt the way that the hunter wants. If the hunter does not have the time to work the dog...how in the world is that the dog's fault? If you buy a high drive dog, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort to get that dog to do what you want, when you want...the way you want. The dog is what the dog is. The trainer has to make them be what they need to be. It may well be that the hunter has bought the wrong dog for their needs, but again...how is that the dog's fault?

Too many folks want to dimsiss a high drive dog as "NUTS" when in actuality the dog is only doing what is normal for that type of dog. And YEAH, FWIW, you DID try to dismiss the high drive dog as a nut job. You just got caught at it. I do actually know how to read. The person who bought the dog, didn't buy the right kind of dog for their needs, ergo "the dog is nuts". WRONG!! The person who bought the wrong kind of dog for their needs is the one that messed up...not the dog. If you cannot or will not do what it takes to get a handle on the dog...don't blame the dog. If you need a dog that hunts in the same field with you, that is what you need to train the dog to do. If you cannot...don't blame the dog. Put the blame where it belongs. If we look in the mirror, more often than not we are looking at the root of the problem.

And YES I include myself when I say look in the mirror, because I am, all too often, the weak link in the chain.

RayG
No Ray,like many defenders of big runners,you are awfully touchy feely and quick to take any discussion of range and get a bit out of shape about it.And yes,you twisted and aparently can't understand what I wrote,even accusing me of "getting caught"? Let me say it again and maybe you will get it this time as I will use the word I actually wanted to in the first place-"All this talk of it being the trainers fault,and has nothing to do with the dog is hogwash"- Now do you get it!

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:53 pm

live4point -

You are correct in that I misread your post about the "nuts' comment and for that I do apologize.

As far as the other part, I still maintain that whether the dog ranges too much or has too much energy or whatever...that is not in any way the dog's fault. The dog is what it is bred to be. If anything it is the fault of the person who bought the wrong dog for their situation and needs.

I don't care what kind of dog someone chooses to hunt behind. I really don't. Everyone is entitled to enjoy their sport the way they desire. However it flat annoys me when someone says this or that kind of dog is unsuitable for hunting. Unsuitable for whom? That is what I am touchy about. If you don't want a wide ranging dog for the kind of hunting you do...don't buy one like that. It is that easy.

You said yourself that your hunting time is limited so it is reasonable to assume that your training time is limited also. I do understand the fact that available time is a precious commodity for many folks especially those with families. I also understand that not everyone gets the same enjoyment out of working with and training bird dogs as I might and would much rather that their challenges come in different flavors. I really do get that.

But I still maintain that if someone is unwilling or unable, for WHATEVER legitimate reasons, to do what is necessary to a"high octane" kind of dog to handle properly in such a scenario...that still is not the dog's fault. An AF horseback shooting dog or all age dog IS capable of being hunted on a small preserve, if you put in the time and effort to train the dog to what you want. Is it the best use of such a dog? Heck no. Is it going to be an easy thing to do?> Probably not so much.

But it can be done.

RayG

User avatar
brad27
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1334
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:08 am
Location: menifee, CA

Re: Too much dog?

Post by brad27 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:02 pm

No Ray,like many defenders of big runners,you are awfully touchy feely and quick to take any discussion of range and get a
bit out of shape about it.And yes,you twisted and aparently can't understand what I wrote,even accusing me of "getting
caught"? Let me say it again and maybe you will get it this time as I will use the word I actually wanted to in the first place-"All
this talk of it being the trainers fault,and has nothing to do with the dog is hogwash"- Now do you get it!
I got it the first time. You're still wrong.

live4point
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:52 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Too much dog?

Post by live4point » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:48 am

The title of the thread is "Too much dog?"-It has nothing to do with being the dogs fault.If you wanted to plow a field I suppose you could do it with a team of Kentucky derby winners,but would it be the right choice?While my dogs might not be best suited to hunt the wide open big country as well as the next guys bigger going dogs,the same could be said vice versa.I dont know why people take such offence to admitting different range dogs are best suited to different situations and areas.Many novice hunters look at this site for guidance and it aggravates me that some will talk up these hi powered big running dogs as the only way to go in any kind of terrain.I wonder how many novice hunters have experienced miserable hunts or have been burned out on the sport all together by following some of the ill-logic preached on this forum.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Too much dog?

Post by birddogger » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:53 am

I am confused as to how we got to the point of saying it is the dog's fault. The fact that an inexperienced handler or a hunter gets a dog that turns out to be more than he/she can handle is what I call too much dog for that person. Of course it is not the dog's fault but that doesn't change the fact that it is too much dog for the owner and/or situation. I am surprised there is this much discussion and/or disagreement over a simple phrase that somebody may use. JMO.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AzDoggin » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:12 pm

birddogger wrote: I am surprised there is this much discussion and/or disagreement over a simple phrase that somebody may use. JMO.

Charlie
Me too, Charlie. Maybe what it proves is that no matter how good we may be interacting with dogs, we have a ways to go interacting with 2 legged species?

I think it is the interwebs "fault." If we were having this conversation face-to-face, we'd have already moved on....

Merry Christmas, everyone. :)
Last edited by AzDoggin on Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:30 pm

Again I agree... but it also begs the question...who bought the dog? It ain't the dog's fault that the hunter bought the wrong kind of dog for their needs.
We agree...this is where the breeder has to make a judgement call and sometimes buyers aren't really easy to gauge. Got a call for a young dog from a hunter that needs a hillside chukar dog...I sent him elsewhere....another call on the same dog from a single guy that works 4, 12 hour shifts a week with no real place to put the dog...also not a good match. Very few bad dogs but bad matches can cause problems.

Kmack
Rank: Champion
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:36 am
Location: Augusta, Kansas

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Kmack » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:27 pm

It seems to me that everyone has defined too much dog for a situation as meaning the dog will not perform as the owner/handler wishes.

I would term this in all cases as too little dog.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Too much dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:56 pm

Too much dog is not a knock on the dog or the trainer it is just a fact same as there are many times you don't have enough dog. Toy terrier are not enough dog when boar hunting, great Danes are too much dog when mousing, AA trial dogs are too much dog when hunting 3 acre patch of heavy covered CRP and many close working dogs are not enough on the prairies. And people who get their feelings hurt whan someone says either phrase need to find something else to do.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Sharon » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:57 pm

[quote="RayGubernat
" If the dog is too much for the situation, then the hunter has not done the full job necessary to get that dog to hunt the way that the hunter wants. If the hunter does not have the time to work the dog...how in the world is that the dog's fault? If you buy a high drive dog, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort to get that dog to do what you want, when you want...the way you want. The dog is what the dog is. The trainer has to make them be what they need to be. It may well be that the hunter has bought the wrong dog for their needs, but again...how is that the dog's fault?

Too many folks want to dimsiss a high drive dog as "NUTS" when in actuality the dog is only doing what is normal for that type of dog. And YEAH, FWIW, you DID try to dismiss the high drive dog as a nut job. You just got caught at it. I do actually know how to read. The person who bought the dog, didn't buy the right kind of dog for their needs, ergo "the dog is nuts". WRONG!! The person who bought the wrong kind of dog for their needs is the one that messed up...not the dog. If you cannot or will not do what it takes to get a handle on the dog...don't blame the dog. If you need a dog that hunts in the same field with you, that is what you need to train the dog to do. If you cannot...don't blame the dog. Put the blame where it belongs. If we look in the mirror, more often than not we are looking at the root of the problem.

And YES I include myself when I say look in the mirror, because I am, all too often, the weak link in the chain.

RayG[/quote]


Exactly. Well said.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
Hunter
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:59 am
Location: Masonville, Iowa

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Hunter » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:37 pm

Those of you who have too much dog as they say, give me a call, I'll take too much dog anyday over not enough and can sell them in a heartbeat if bred right.
Jerry Alden

2X NGDC/GFC/FC Clk's Point Me The Way ( Allie ) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2765

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by slistoe » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:48 pm

ezzy333 wrote:AA trial dogs are too much dog when hunting 3 acre patch of heavy covered CRP and many close working dogs are not enough on the prairies.
Give me a dog from AA breeding and I will hunt it on the prairies and on 3 acre patches. Give me a dog that won't go anywhere and I can lead it around a 3 acre patch but I will not be able to make it hunt the prairies no matter what I do.

There is not too much dog, only a lack of trainer. And that is perfectly fine. Not everyone can be or wants to be a dog trainer.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Too much dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:53 pm

Funny thing is every one knows it but just can't bring themselves to say there are dogs better suited for one type of hunting than another. If you really think the foot hunter in the mid-west that are hunting fence rows and grass water ways are going to buy a trial dog because they are so much better in the limited space then you are more foolish than I would have ever guessed. I still remember a few years back when I was raising pups for hunters the normal first question was your pups do not have field trial blood in them. And most of them didn't any closer than 4 generations but they were great hunting dogs that could win on the bench as well as in the field.

We constantly hear about too much horse, too much engine, too much gun but we could never say too much dog though we hear constantly about too little dog, too little engine, and too little gun. Do you suppose the difference is the people talking.......seems that way.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Fester
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:30 pm
Location: Possum Trot KY

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Fester » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:22 pm

Miller dog out of Texas?? I'm pretty sure Miller dogs have always been out of western Ky, anyways I say big motor big time
Merry Christmas Fester

User avatar
Crestonegsp
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:21 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:18 am

Too much dog? Not a chance. Someone much smarter than me said you can take the run out of a dog but you sure can't put it in them. You need to start with the best dog you can find and train it to suit what you use it for. If they run circles around you feet they will never be the bird finding machine you want them to be and you might as well go find the birds on your own. This does not mean that every person should go out and get themselves a balls to the wall AA dog but you do need to get a dog that is going to go somewhere with a purpose.

Ray G is right, there is no such thing as "Too Much Dog"
Dan Schoenfelder

CH/FC PVR's Rugerheim Smokin' Liberty
CH/RUCH PVR's Rugerheim Double Shot
PVR N' Rugerheim Vendetta Ride
Rugerheim's Final Frontier

User avatar
bigsugar
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:00 pm
Location: SE Kansas

Re: Too much dog?

Post by bigsugar » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:06 am

This has been an interesting discussion.

I can't speak for anyone elses dogs but we have dogs here that you wouldn't dare turn loose in a 3 acre patch. Not because they aren't properly trained but because they are trained to do something else.

There are dogs in the world that are meant to run big and no matter what you do to them they won't suck in. We have owned a few ourselves. They were good trial dogs but not the best for pheasant hunting. Nothing to do with training. Training only goes so far on dogs.

Dogs that are meant to run will run. You'll only be in their way if you try to change that.

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:34 pm

The trainer has to make them be what they need to be.
You can't make a dog what it needs to be in every case. The best method is to find the breeder that is prioritizing the kind of dog you expect. There is a school of thought that believes you breed dogs as hot and charged as possible and then you throttle back if you don't need it. I don't agree with this. Dogs are "hardwired" to a certain extent...if we don't believe that then the whole selection process and theory of genetic influence is bogus. I have seen many mismatches through the years and generally it is a dog that needs a stronger hand, more dominant owner and earlier "interception" by an owner.

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:56 pm

JKP wrote: I have seen many mismatches through the years and generally it is a dog that needs a stronger hand, more dominant owner and earlier "interception" by an owner.
You bet, and if you are making the decision to get a pup, why not get one with parents who operate within your desired range of "dogness" and do so with as much style as you can find?

For awhile, I was interested in a working-line German Shep or a Malinois. Many of the better breeders would indicate "these will be serious working dogs - for experienced handlers only" for a particularly "hot" litter. I doubt any of the breeders who are responsible would sell these pups to an apartment dweller who just wanted a fluffy dog to play with the young children.

User avatar
WPBS1234
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:36 am

Re: Too much dog?

Post by WPBS1234 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:13 pm

Too much dog or not enough dog will always be a discussion. IMO it depends on owner/trainer/handler and what they want to work with.I would rather work with to much dog it may take a bit more time in training, but I think the end results are a harder working dog. It's all about the training.

dennis

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:31 pm

WPBS1234 wrote:Too much dog or not enough dog will always be a discussion. IMO it depends on owner/trainer/handler and what they want to work with.I would rather work with to much dog it may take a bit more time in training, but I think the end results are a harder working dog. It's all about the training.

dennis
Welcome and I agree. Too much dog will cause the handler to step up - as long as they are capable of it.

User avatar
AHGSP
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, WV

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AHGSP » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:32 pm

WPBS1234 wrote:Too much dog or not enough dog will always be a discussion. IMO it depends on owner/trainer/handler and what they want to work with.I would rather work with to much dog it may take a bit more time in training, but I think the end results are a harder working dog. It's all about the training.

dennis

Bout &$^#% time you joined! Good to see ya on here ;-)

I think knine has a saying along the lines of breed for ability and train for range, or something close to that effect. I think there is a lot more truth in that than many want to admit. They may just have to admit they're not up to the level of the task as a trainer....
Bruce Shaffer

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain

Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)

User avatar
doco
Rank: Champion
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 am
Location: Massena, NY - on the Northermost US/Canadian Border

Re: Too much dog?

Post by doco » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:59 pm

IMO....I blame the Breeder! As a responsible breeder, he/she controls the matchmaking. The breeding was determined to exhibit certain traits. It is our responsibility to place our dogs in the right hands. It's not fair to put the dog in a situation that it is not genetically wired for.

My next breeding will be with my "High Octane" girl. I certainly will be selective on where these pups go. Ironically, my kids gave me "Snakefoot" under the tree this AM and when he spoke of a dog that can't be contained, I swear he knew my Heidi. There is almost no kennel that she hasn't escaped from. I had to put an underground electric fence inside my 6' wooden fence and now I put a cow fence up rather than put 5 collars on my pups as well. She can't be in a kennel that is not covered. She jumps up and spins like Shawn White in a Half Pipe. She has opened the latches on some kennels. Pulled on the fence to the point of breaking a tooth. Chewed through plastic kennels, jumped out the car window and backed her sister while I wondered how the heck did she get out here from the car.

My point is that I will not sell these pups to the newby looking to buy a footdog. With the internet, you can find whatever kind of run you want from a bootlicker to a runoff. I completely agree that you can't put desire and run into a dog and why work so hard to try take the drive out of one. Locate the dog that best suits your need....I don't think it can be any simpler than that.
Last edited by doco on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
If You Ain't Lettin Lead Fly, Nothin Falls......

KJ's Hightailing Saddle x Von Grief's Abbey Road Litter
Whelped 12/23/2010

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3061

Image
FC Von Greif's Abbey Road
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3059


Image
FC/AFC Heidi Von Greif
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3060

jimbo&rooster
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Sullivan IN

Re: Too much dog?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:26 pm

WPBS1234 wrote:Too much dog or not enough dog will always be a discussion. IMO it depends on owner/trainer/handler and what they want to work with.I would rather work with to much dog it may take a bit more time in training, but I think the end results are a harder working dog. It's all about the training.

dennis

I was going to ask about the dog in your avatar then I figured it out! haha.

Jim
A limit on the strap is nice, but the kill has nothing to do with tradition.

User avatar
LaTexCLB
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:00 pm
Location: Magnolia, TX

Re: Too much dog?

Post by LaTexCLB » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:28 pm

If there's no such thing as "too much dog" - then why do so many breeders (and certain lines of GSP's) talk about "bidability" as a characteristic of their line? Said, another way, why are some dogs known as "soft"? To think there are not extremes of "soft" vs. "head strong" dogs is not being truthful. A "soft" dog can still be a great hunter, or Field Champion - I've known and seen them. Head strong dogs do not necessarily make champions.

So... is "Too much dog" strictly a question of range - or is it another way of classifying a dog as "too full of himself, high strung, lacking bidability"? A head-strong, independent dog can still be trained, but it will take a more firm, consistent hand than a bidable dog. With this notion of "too much dog" being a reference to being "headstrong", then some dogs can certainly be 'too much' for the casual hunter/trainer.
Impressive KaZoya Rusty Mia Reduxx http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=4133

User avatar
AHGSP
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, WV

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AHGSP » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:30 pm

Here's one of my pedigree's Howie:
http://www.almostheavengsps.com/Pedigre ... erations=5

Her daughter has had 3 Grouse killed over her yesterday and 3 last weekend in thick and STEEEEEP WV Mountain Counties, of just the past week. That daughter has also had close to 100 Doodle finds this Fall alone and in the neighborhood of 80 Grouse points.....
Incidentally, Lola is he!! on Grouse herself. See anything in that Ped ya like? :wink:

Edited to add. I am in 10000% agreement with you on brains and ability to work with you Howie. WIthout the brains and bidability, you don't have much to work with, whether they're under foot or 600 yards out.
Last edited by AHGSP on Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bruce Shaffer

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain

Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)

User avatar
AHGSP
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, WV

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AHGSP » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:34 pm

I should add though Howie, Lola has only been bred once, as I realize that many are not up to the task of training and handling such a dog and finding homes ACCEPTABLE TO ME, would be difficult.
Bruce Shaffer

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain

Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)

User avatar
AHGSP
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:35 am
Location: Springfield, WV

Re: Too much dog?

Post by AHGSP » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:39 pm

LaTexCLB wrote:If there's no such thing as "too much dog" - then why do so many breeders (and certain lines of GSP's) talk about "bidability" as a characteristic of their line? Said, another way, why are some dogs known as "soft"? To think there are not extremes of "soft" vs. "head strong" dogs is not being truthful. A "soft" dog can still be a great hunter, or Field Champion - I've known and seen them. Head strong dogs do not necessarily make champions.

So... is "Too much dog" strictly a question of range - or is it another way of classifying a dog as "too full of himself, high strung, lacking bidability"? A head-strong, independent dog can still be trained, but it will take a more firm, consistent hand than a bidable dog. With this notion of "too much dog" being a reference to being "headstrong", then some dogs can certainly be 'too much' for the casual hunter/trainer.
Excellent post and one I can certainly agree with. Range doesn't have to make them too much dog, but headstrong and lacking bidability certainly could, even more so if added to range.
Bruce Shaffer

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain

Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)

User avatar
WPBS1234
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:36 am

Re: Too much dog?

Post by WPBS1234 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Howie you may be right I have not been doing this as long as you. If you look into Tucker their is some AA stuff there. I enjoy training dogs, maybe more than others and am always up for a challenge. This may not be the case for some people and I understand that, every one has their limits.

dennis

User avatar
WPBS1234
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:36 am

Re: Too much dog?

Post by WPBS1234 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:55 pm

Howie you may be right I have not been doing this as long as you. If you look into Tucker their is some AA stuff there. I enjoy training dogs, maybe more than others and am always up for a challenge. This may not be the case for some people and I understand that, every one has their limits.

dennis

User avatar
bigsugar
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:00 pm
Location: SE Kansas

Re: Too much dog?

Post by bigsugar » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:54 am

AH you don't train range in a dog. God either gives them a big motor or he doesn't.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:07 am

LaTexCLB wrote:If there's no such thing as "too much dog" - then why do so many breeders (and certain lines of GSP's) talk about "bidability" as a characteristic of their line? Said, another way, why are some dogs known as "soft"? To think there are not extremes of "soft" vs. "head strong" dogs is not being truthful. A "soft" dog can still be a great hunter, or Field Champion - I've known and seen them. Head strong dogs do not necessarily make champions.

So... is "Too much dog" strictly a question of range - or is it another way of classifying a dog as "too full of himself, high strung, lacking bidability"? A head-strong, independent dog can still be trained, but it will take a more firm, consistent hand than a bidable dog. With this notion of "too much dog" being a reference to being "headstrong", then some dogs can certainly be 'too much' for the casual hunter/trainer.
"Too much dog" is a dog that the handler cannot handle on any given day...for whatever reason. Most often the reason given is excessive range. In reality it is usually not the range of the dog in feet or yards that is the problem, but rather the uneasiness of the hunter/handler to have a dog hunting at that range. That can be for a variety of reasons, some totally legitimate, some totally dependent on the personal preferences of the hunter and some because the dog is not sufficiently trained to respond in a manner that the hunter desires.

A dog that does not respond to commands is not lacking in biddability...it is lacking in training. If a dog refuses to come when called, even with appropriate training...it is a runoff, a self hunter and not worth being called a bird dog...because it ain't.

As far as what it takes to bring a dog to the very highest level of sucess in competitions I will tell you this: A dog with a soft temperament is often a HUGE PIA when it comes to taking the training that is required to do things at the competitive level. A dog that is soft AND stubborn is an even bigger PIA. A dog that is soft, stubborn and smart can be impossible to train to the level necessary to be competitive. A certain level of mental toughness is absolutely necessary for a dog to be able to take the inevitable pressures that training to the highest competitive level involves.

A dog does not need to be particuilarly biddable to be a good or even great bird dog. What it must have, is the willingness to include the hunter in the hunt. It must have comeback, if it is a wide ranging dog because if it does not come back and check up on you..it is a self hunting runoff...not a bird dog(see above).

If a dog is hunting in an open field area at two to four hundred yards from the hunter...is it a problem? If the dog finds a bird out there, sticks it and holds that bird until the hunter gets there and puts the bird up, is it a problem? Probably not. However, if the hunter HAS to shoot at every single bird the dog points...it might be, because some birds will run out from under a dog's point, some may flush wild, etc. If the hunter has not trained the dog to be competely staunch...it most certainly will be, because the dog will move and bust the birds long before the huter gets there, just about every time.

RayG

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:49 am

A dog does not need to be particuilarly biddable to be a good or even great bird dog. What it must have, is the willingness to include the hunter in the hunt. It must have comeback, if it is a wide ranging dog because if it does not come back and check up on you..it is a self hunting runoff...not a bird dog
Don't understand...I have read repeatedly that such dogs can't win...so you can't get such a dog from deep FT lines. :wink:

I find that the select group of highly competitive dog sport enthusiasts aren't really in touch with the majority of hunters and their comfort level...and that is what it is...comfort level. This is where NAVHDA may be better in touch with the week end warrior. I sometimes wonder who all the "push 'em to the max" breeders are breeding for...are there that many folks that want horseback dogs? I know a 200-400 yard foothunters dog was mentioned, but I don't know anyone that wants or can really hunt such a dog.... I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd. Most folks underestimate how far 300 yds is anyway.

Let's not forget that quite a few trial dogs are conditioned to run big...they don't come out of the womb needing spotters.

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: Too much dog?

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:48 pm

Ladies & Gentlemen,
In my opinion there is no such thing as to much dog, however there are dogs bred to do different jobs, use the dog bred to the proper job, do the training correctly and
never let somebody tell you, you own to much dog.
RGD/Dave

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by slistoe » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:57 pm

JKP wrote:
A dog does not need to be particuilarly biddable to be a good or even great bird dog. What it must have, is the willingness to include the hunter in the hunt. It must have comeback, if it is a wide ranging dog because if it does not come back and check up on you..it is a self hunting runoff...not a bird dog
Don't understand...I have read repeatedly that such dogs can't win...so you can't get such a dog from deep FT lines. :wink:

I find that the select group of highly competitive dog sport enthusiasts aren't really in touch with the majority of hunters and their comfort level...and that is what it is...comfort level. This is where NAVHDA may be better in touch with the week end warrior. I sometimes wonder who all the "push 'em to the max" breeders are breeding for...are there that many folks that want horseback dogs? I know a 200-400 yard foothunters dog was mentioned, but I don't know anyone that wants or can really hunt such a dog.... I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd. Most folks underestimate how far 300 yds is anyway.

Let's not forget that quite a few trial dogs are conditioned to run big...they don't come out of the womb needing spotters.
You don't understand because you don't know what comeback means. It does not mean come over for a pet on the head.
You are right about the majority of hunters. They are not dog trainers, don't want to be dog trainers. But there is little purpose in breeding for the lowest common denominator. A person can shoot a limit of birds while accompanied in the field with a Brussells Griffon and call it a bird dog if they want, but that doesn't make it so.
No dog is trained to run big - they are simply allowed to run big. You train against it. If the dog doesn't go there you cannot make it.

User avatar
northern cajun
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:28 am
Location: Breaux Bridge, La and Ithaca, NY

Re: Too much dog?

Post by northern cajun » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:05 pm

AHGSP wrote:
solon wrote:Well I notice that in last years National Championship, that the tracker was pulled out for 5 out of the 39 dogs that ran. Of course, maybe these weren't good dogs or their mounted handlers and scouts were not good trainers. On the other hand, I would say on that day, they were too much dog.

How many of them were found on point, where they had been ridden by and just missed buried up in cover? How many that were "lost", had just gone a different line than what had been thought? Were they really too much dog, or did the Handler's and Scout's just mis-judge? Honest questions.

+1
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
GOD BLESS

DOGS COULDNT LIVE WITHOUT EM!!
NORTHERN CAJUN

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Too much dog?

Post by birddogger » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:31 pm

slistoe wrote:
JKP wrote:
A dog does not need to be particuilarly biddable to be a good or even great bird dog. What it must have, is the willingness to include the hunter in the hunt. It must have comeback, if it is a wide ranging dog because if it does not come back and check up on you..it is a self hunting runoff...not a bird dog
Don't understand...I have read repeatedly that such dogs can't win...so you can't get such a dog from deep FT lines. :wink:

I find that the select group of highly competitive dog sport enthusiasts aren't really in touch with the majority of hunters and their comfort level...and that is what it is...comfort level. This is where NAVHDA may be better in touch with the week end warrior. I sometimes wonder who all the "push 'em to the max" breeders are breeding for...are there that many folks that want horseback dogs? I know a 200-400 yard foothunters dog was mentioned, but I don't know anyone that wants or can really hunt such a dog.... I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd. Most folks underestimate how far 300 yds is anyway.

Let's not forget that quite a few trial dogs are conditioned to run big...they don't come out of the womb needing spotters.
You don't understand because you don't know what comeback means. It does not mean come over for a pet on the head.
You are right about the majority of hunters. They are not dog trainers, don't want to be dog trainers. But there is little purpose in breeding for the lowest common denominator. A person can shoot a limit of birds while accompanied in the field with a Brussells Griffon and call it a bird dog if they want, but that doesn't make it so.
No dog is trained to run big - they are simply allowed to run big. You train against it. If the dog doesn't go there you cannot make it.
I agree that comeback doesn't mean to come over for a pat on the head. I don't know whether the majority of foot hunters are dog trainers or not but I know a lot of us are and take pride in hunting with a well trained dog. I work with my dogs all year but I have a passion for it and as you say some don't want to be dog trainers.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:43 pm

I agree that comeback doesn't mean to come over for a pat on the head.
Who the heck said that??...I didn't. The real variable that is often a test for handlers is the degree of independence....note I said "degree". I believe that some dogs are more independent and others need to know more where a handler is.
I think a lot of folks kid themselves about how independent their dogs are....its easy to find out....just sit down in the field and wait...if you have to go get the truck and start searching because the dog kept going...you know what kind of dog you have. I think most handlers need a dog that keeps track of the handler and can be seen....they are uncomfortable with the dog out of sight...they also like to see the dog work/make game. Experienced handlers don't need to see the dog all the time....they have the sixth sense...remember where the dog was last..the direction...can read the cover...and pretty much know where the dog is...even without the Satellite.

To tell folks what they SHOULD want in a dog is a little over the top...its their money...they should get what they want.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Too much dog?

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:17 pm

JKP wrote:
I agree that comeback doesn't mean to come over for a pat on the head.
Who the heck said that??...I didn't. The real variable that is often a test for handlers is the degree of independence....note I said "degree". I believe that some dogs are more independent and others need to know more where a handler is.
I think a lot of folks kid themselves about how independent their dogs are....its easy to find out....just sit down in the field and wait...if you have to go get the truck and start searching because the dog kept going...you know what kind of dog you have. I think most handlers need a dog that keeps track of the handler and can be seen....they are uncomfortable with the dog out of sight...they also like to see the dog work/make game. Experienced handlers don't need to see the dog all the time....they have the sixth sense...remember where the dog was last..the direction...can read the cover...and pretty much know where the dog is...even without the Satellite.

To tell folks what they SHOULD want in a dog is a little over the top...its their money...they should get what they want.
JKP - We may have had differences of opinion in the past and probably will in the future, BUT I totally agree with absolutely everything you said above.

RayG

User avatar
bigsugar
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 12:00 pm
Location: SE Kansas

Re: Too much dog?

Post by bigsugar » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:11 pm

[quote="doco"]IMO....I blame the Breeder! As a responsible breeder, he/she controls the matchmaking. The breeding was determined to exhibit certain traits. It is our responsibility to place our dogs in the right hands. It's not fair to put the dog in a situation that it is not genetically wired for. [quote]


Tell all of us Doco how in the world you know what an 8 week old pup will become 2 years later.

I know breeders are to blame for cancer, aids, high gases prices, the dollar being weak, inflation, etc.........

A guy who breeds litter of pups in no way controls what kind of environment a pup goes to. There is no way to know if they guy who buys a pup from you is going to kill it 15 minutes after he leaves with it.

Based on your theory you think that just because you breed two big running dogs that you can expect big running dogs in return. This couldn't be further from the truth. There is absolutely no way to predict what a pup will become. It's impossible to gaurantee a guy that he will be getting a close working gundog or a big running trial when they pick them up at 8 weeks.

User avatar
doco
Rank: Champion
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 am
Location: Massena, NY - on the Northermost US/Canadian Border

Re: Too much dog?

Post by doco » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:12 pm

Hey BS,

You are absolutely 100% right. There is no way to guarantee what any dog can do at 8 weeks old. All any of us can do is guess. However, if someone is looking for a footdog, I as a breeder would be more than willing to tell them that the parents run out there 4-800 yards if the terrain allows it. That is what I train for. My dogs do it. I have judged dogs at a trial that don't go more than 50-100 yards. That is the dog that they should be looking for a footdog out of. I don't have to reiterate the fact that there is more involved to a great dog than just run. It has already been overkilled. However, I felt that I graciously said that

"As a responsible breeder, he/she controls the matchmaking. The breeding was determined to exhibit certain traits. It is our responsibility to place our dogs in the right hands. It's not fair to put the dog in a situation that it is not genetically wired for."

I certainly wouldn't buy a Chevy 1500 to pull a 4 horse gooseneck with living quarters over a 3500HD Diesel. It will certainly get the job done, but why put the strain and effort into making something harder than it has to be. In my other post of Hunters vs. Trialers, nobody is to blame, don't pass judgement and buy and train the dog that best suits your needs. The pun on BS was just that. No harm intended, just a little humor.

Doco
Last edited by doco on Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by slistoe » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:14 pm

JKP wrote:
I agree that comeback doesn't mean to come over for a pat on the head.
Who the heck said that??...I didn't. The real variable that is often a test for handlers is the degree of independence....note I said "degree". I believe that some dogs are more independent and others need to know more where a handler is.
I think a lot of folks kid themselves about how independent their dogs are....its easy to find out....just sit down in the field and wait...if you have to go get the truck and start searching because the dog kept going...you know what kind of dog you have. I think most handlers need a dog that keeps track of the handler and can be seen....they are uncomfortable with the dog out of sight...they also like to see the dog work/make game. Experienced handlers don't need to see the dog all the time....they have the sixth sense...remember where the dog was last..the direction...can read the cover...and pretty much know where the dog is...even without the Satellite.

To tell folks what they SHOULD want in a dog is a little over the top...its their money...they should get what they want.
No, you said you didn't understand comeback.
I agree the real test of a dog is to sit down in the field. If the dog won't keep on hunting for as long as you choose to sit there and leave him out hunting then he isn't really a HUNTING dog. As Ray has already said, if he don't comeback he isn't a bird dog either.
I agree completely with your take on the experienced handlers.
To say that folks should get what they want is a little over the top. Folks should get something from which it is possible to make what they want - but there is no way to know if they are the ones that will be able to make it. Not everyone is willing or able to make what they want from the raw potential of a pup.

Many times in the field I have been asked by folks "How do I get my dog to do that?" Most times the answer would be "Start with a different dog" but there are some folks for whom the answer is simply "YOU don't."

JKP
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by JKP » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:38 pm

If the dog won't keep on hunting for as long as you choose to sit there and leave him out hunting then he isn't really a HUNTING dog.
One interpretation....but when I propose that much of the bird dog culture is the handler maintaining contact and following the dog....everyone screams foul. So here we have confirmation that at least some folks are looking for dogs that don't look back and keep going. There is no wrong way...and I am not saying what is better or worse...you have already done that for us.

But here is a prime example .... as a breeder prioritizing dogs that just keep going, it would be necessary to find "hands" that know how to work with such dogs. Very few bad dogs....just bad matches...and IMO that is where the origin of the expression "too much dog" comes from.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by slistoe » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:17 pm

JKP wrote:
If the dog won't keep on hunting for as long as you choose to sit there and leave him out hunting then he isn't really a HUNTING dog.
One interpretation....but when I propose that much of the bird dog culture is the handler maintaining contact and following the dog....everyone screams foul. So here we have confirmation that at least some folks are looking for dogs that don't look back and keep going. There is no wrong way...and I am not saying what is better or worse...you have already done that for us.

But here is a prime example .... as a breeder prioritizing dogs that just keep going, it would be necessary to find "hands" that know how to work with such dogs. Very few bad dogs....just bad matches...and IMO that is where the origin of the expression "too much dog" comes from.
Absolutely nothing in what I wrote indicates that the dog keeps on going and never looks back. That is your bias showing, since I have plainly stated many times that whether you are hunting or trialing, a dog that keeps on going and never looks back is a waste of dog food.

But if I can't stop on the top of the hill and watch the dog hunt through all three willow bottoms scattered in the middle of the quarter section and then have the dog swing to the front as I move off he really isn't doing the job I brought him along for. If he shows up at my feet when I didn't call him he definitely is not doing the job he came along for.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: Too much dog?

Post by slistoe » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:23 pm

JKP wrote:....but when I propose that much of the bird dog culture is the handler maintaining contact and following the dog....everyone screams foul.
The handler does not need to maintain contact and follow the dog. The dog maintains contact and always moves to the front of the handler. Of course it would be foolish of a handler to ignore the dog and not aid in the process.

Post Reply