Breeder question

chuckanut
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
Location: Northern US Rockies

Breeder question

Post by chuckanut » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:58 am

Hello. I've been lurking around on this site for a while and decided to take the plunge sign up. I need to ask a question of you breeders out there. I have a deposit in on a GSP pup that will be available to take home in a couple weeks. I went out yesterday to make my selection (had first pick of females). When I picked the pup that I want the breeder said that was the one he was considering keeping and said if I wanted it then I needed to agree to 'contract' the dog for one litter. Basically he said he will pay the stud fee, vet bills, etc. and I will get a pup or a fee and a portion of the pup sales. Is this normal? Seems shady to me but that is the pup I want. I told him I'd think about it and get back to him today. Any advice you folks could give me would be great.

User avatar
postoakshorthairs
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Breeder question

Post by postoakshorthairs » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:23 pm

Did the breeder say up front they were included in the pick order? I've seen scenarios where the breeder had the litter to keep a pup out of but they made it known up front that they would have the first choice. I think the scenario you explain would upset me.

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Breeder question

Post by QuailHollow » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:26 pm

Yes, if he feels the dog is important to his line, he will need to find someone to commit to his agreement - or keep the dog himself.

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Breeder question

Post by QuailHollow » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:27 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:Did the breeder say up front they were included in the pick order? I've seen scenarios where the breeder had the litter to keep a pup out of but they made it known up front that they would have the first choice. I think the scenario you explain would pi$$ me off.
It wouldn't bother me. It's his litter. His choice comes first as breeder.

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Breeder question

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:29 pm

It is very common in conformation dogs and some performance dogs, however, ot would be pointless to breed a litter from a bitch he did not own, so I would suspect that contract involves a co-ownership, also. He really should not have presented the hold back pup and may be shopping for a co-owner. Co-ownerships are a freaking nightmare, especially for novice owners. I'd choose a different pup.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Breeder question

Post by QuailHollow » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:31 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:It is very common in conformation dogs and some performance dogs, however, ot would be pointless to breed a litter from a bitch he did not own, so I would suspect that contract involves a co-ownership, also. He really should not have presented the hold back pup and may be shopping for a co-owner. Co-ownerships are a freaking nightmare, especially for novice owners. I'd choose a different pup.
I agree with you completely. I was just thinking of telling the poster to stay well away from this. It isn't worth the trouble - EVER. I outright own all of my dogs, and I sleep well at night.
Last edited by QuailHollow on Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
postoakshorthairs
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Breeder question

Post by postoakshorthairs » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:40 pm

QuailHollow wrote:
postoakshorthairs wrote:Did the breeder say up front they were included in the pick order? I've seen scenarios where the breeder had the litter to keep a pup out of but they made it known up front that they would have the first choice. I think the scenario you explain would pi$$ me off.
It wouldn't bother me. It's his litter. His choice comes first as breeder.
It is absolutely his choice as the breeder BUT he should have let potential buyers know in advance that he was going to pick first. Why not tell the guys before he sees the dogs to make his pick that he's decided to keep one and which one it is? He also didn't say this was the one he was keeping he said it was the one he was considering keeping after the OP chose. I get the feeling he's trying to have his cake and eat it. JMO

chuckanut
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
Location: Northern US Rockies

Re: Breeder question

Post by chuckanut » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:03 pm

Thanks for the input. When I put my deposit down about 8 months ago (and yes, if I back out completely it is non-refundable but can be used for a different litter if I want) he mentioned that sometimes he holds a pup and reserves the right to do so regardless of pick so I can't complain there. But when I came to pick a pup he didn't say anything about it until after I picked that one. I just wish he would have set that one aside and said it wasn't available instead of throwing the 'contract' litter in the mix. The only other female in the litter is really small and I know they're young but she was hanging back with the other pups while the one I wanted was real outgoing and wanted to interact with me. Just didn't get the same vibe. How long do you typically wait to breed a female? Would it be worth it to just do the one litter and then get her fixed and be done with it?

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Breeder question

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:06 pm

It wouldn't surprise me if it's not the same deal for every female pup buyer. Someone else gets the work and the if the original breeder doesn't go on the dam's papers, it allows them to avoid multiple litter recordkeeping inspections from AKC.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
postoakshorthairs
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 648
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Breeder question

Post by postoakshorthairs » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:08 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if it's not the same deal for every female pup buyer. Someone else gets the work and the if the original breeder doesn't go on the dam's papers, it allows them to avoid multiple litter recordkeeping inspections from AKC.
+1. that was my thoughts....might have been the same story no matter which female he chose.

art hubbard
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:57 pm
Location: idaho

Re: Breeder question

Post by art hubbard » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:13 pm

When I buy a pup or any dog, that is my dog. If I sell a pup or any dog, it belongs to the new buyer. Period

User avatar
phermes1
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1510
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:15 pm
Location: Tampa, Fl

Re: Breeder question

Post by phermes1 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:30 pm

Sounds like there was some miscommunication. He should have let you know up front that that was the pup he planned on keeping, or should never have presented it as an option in the first place.
We don't obligate any of our puppy owners to breed their dogs. We know a few breeders that do and, quite frankly, I don't get it. Som even specifically state the stud to be used. They have no idea if the pup in question will even grow up into something that should be bred, let alone if the chosen stud is a good match. IMHO, it's not responsible breeding.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a pup that came with those conditions. As a breeder, I think it's unreasonable and too much to ask of a puppy owner. Breeding a dog is a lot of work and can be risky to the dam's health, and none of that is what 90% of the puppy buyers out there have in mind when they're looking for a dog.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:37 pm

I would have a couple concerns here:

1) Why wasn't a co-ownership or a private treaty to breed disclosed ahead of time? Or is it standard for this breeder and disclosed via website or email correspondence earlier?

2) If a breeder is confident in their product then the pick should truly not matter to them...if a litter is consistent as it should be and a breeder plans to keep a pup for themselves, then they should be very content with any puppy they have produced as their own pick.... I usually let everybody pick their preferences and then whatever is left at the end I am perfectly confident to take as my pick pup as my personal dog....if a breeder is doing their job....you should be able to put all of the puppies in a sack and pick one blind folded and they all be that consistent.

I also don't understand "deposits" on a litter, if a breeder is worth their salt and truly has a "waiting list" for pups then no deposit should ever be necessary...if you don't want the pup they simply move to the next on the list and so on, I've never taken a deposit in 20+ years...

3) I'd ask the breeder straight out...why this pup and not another-are you not confident in your other pups? Is this your standard request with your female pups? and if not why did you not apprise me of this earlier?

My guess is when you explain and ask these items you may see clearer the picture....that being said...be ready to say "no thank you" and ask for your deposit back ...things and stories may change at that point. Plenty of quality litters out there...good luck.
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Breeder question

Post by QuailHollow » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:17 pm

Outlaw wrote:I would have a couple concerns here:

1) Why wasn't a co-ownership or a private treaty to breed disclosed ahead of time? Or is it standard for this breeder and disclosed via website or email correspondence earlier?

2) If a breeder is confident in their product then the pick should truly not matter to them...if a litter is consistent as it should be and a breeder plans to keep a pup for themselves, then they should be very content with any puppy they have produced as their own pick.... I usually let everybody pick their preferences and then whatever is left at the end I am perfectly confident to take as my pick pup as my personal dog....if a breeder is doing their job....you should be able to put all of the puppies in a sack and pick one blind folded and they all be that consistent.

I also don't understand "deposits" on a litter, if a breeder is worth their salt and truly has a "waiting list" for pups then no deposit should ever be necessary...if you don't want the pup they simply move to the next on the list and so on, I've never taken a deposit in 20+ years...

3) I'd ask the breeder straight out...why this pup and not another-are you not confident in your other pups? Is this your standard request with your female pups? and if not why did you not apprise me of this earlier?

My guess is when you explain and ask these items you may see clearer the picture....that being said...be ready to say "no thank you" and ask for your deposit back ...things and stories may change at that point. Plenty of quality litters out there...good luck.


EPIC. :roll:
Your dogs are perfect. You're work here is done.

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1876
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Breeder question

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:24 pm

Outlaw wrote:3) I'd ask the breeder straight out...why this pup and not another-are you not confident in your other pups? Is this your standard request with your female pups? and if not why did you not apprise me of this earlier?

My guess is when you explain and ask these items you may see clearer the picture....that being said...be ready to say "no thank you" and ask for your deposit back ...things and stories may change at that point. Plenty of quality litters out there...good luck.
Agreed...if you are not comfortable, walk away...it may only get worse as time goes on and you have this "agreement" hanging over your head.

User avatar
DougB
Rank: Champion
Posts: 344
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Breeder question

Post by DougB » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:50 pm

This should have been discussed before a deposit was collected. Otherwise, there was no meeting of minds over terms and no contract established. What if you don't want to breed the dog? What if you want a different pup? What if the pups don't sell? I guess I am selfish, but when I buy a dog, it's mine. If the breeder wants control, they can keep the dog. I'll find another one with a different outlook.
Why own a dog? There's a danger you know,

You can't own just one, for the craving will grow.

There's no doubt they're addictive, wherein lies the danger.

While living with lots, you'll grow poorer and stranger.



User avatar
RoostersMom
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1755
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: North Central Missouri

Re: Breeder question

Post by RoostersMom » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:37 pm

It doesn't sound shady to me. If the pups are several weeks away from going home, then the breeder might not know which pup he wants to keep. Rooster's breeder kept him and the "other" male pick until they were almost 10 weeks old in order to decide which to keep. You can't even do the conformation testing until they're about 7-8 week old, right? At least that's what I understand - the older they are, the more likely you are to see what you need.

That said, I probably wouldn't want to keep a female that he has the right to breed at his discretion. Not unless you know the guy very well and are co-owners on the dog.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Breeder question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:18 pm

Here's my two cents.

I own each of my dogs outright. Nobody tells me what I can do with my dogs. Nobody.

If the breeder insists on co-ownership or holding the dog's papers...I would walk away. They have control AND your money and can jerk your chain endlessly.

If the breeder signs over the pup's papers and you are the sole owner...you can do what you want...when you want. Posession is nine points of the law, especially if you reside in different states. You may have a written agreement that you agree to have one litter by the stud dog of the breeder's choice, but they cannot tell you you must have that litter within a certain timeframe. Even if they do...how are they going to enforce that without going to waaaay more trouble and expense than it is worth? Dogs come in to heat twice a year...Shucks you just missed it. :D :D

Also, when and if it does come time to have that litter, I would surrender the dog to the breeder for the duration. Let them keep the dog, breed the dog, feed the dog, whelp the litter, vet the litter, vet the female, etc. Why should you do the breeder's work for them?

All you want is your female back when all is said and done.

RayG

User avatar
JuliaH
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Barnesville GA

Re: Breeder question

Post by JuliaH » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:52 pm

Perectly said!! If this particular breeder did not want to sell the female his buyer picked, he should have crated her away from the pups for sale. This is not a breeder I would work with twice. Now the buyer has a deposit that is non-refundable and was not given all the facts up front.

Julia
DougB wrote:This should have been discussed before a deposit was collected. Otherwise, there was no meeting of minds over terms and no contract established. What if you don't want to breed the dog? What if you want a different pup? What if the pups don't sell? I guess I am selfish, but when I buy a dog, it's mine. If the breeder wants control, they can keep the dog. I'll find another one with a different outlook.
Karl & Julia Heidbrink
Buggytown Bird Dogs
Central Georgia

User avatar
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:38 pm
Location: Central Nebraska

Re: Breeder question

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:54 pm

Some people just over react!! Read what the guy has said, he did say the breeder said he might keep one and they talked about breeding rights prior! The breeder doesn't wanna own the dog but see some things in that pup that he likes and would like the option to lease her back to breed at a later time, what is wrong with that??? It isn't going to cost the owner anything. He can get a pup as fee for leasing his bitch or cash! Come on people read!! There isn't anything wrong with this. Maybe the breeder will decide later that he was wrong and doesn't wish to have her in his breeding program. I understand why he wants to do it and it makes sense to me!!!
Robert Myers

Rajin Kennel

308-870-3448

Brittanys are Best enough said...

Image

BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061

Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678

BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869

User avatar
JuliaH
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Barnesville GA

Re: Breeder question

Post by JuliaH » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:56 pm

Oh, I also don't buy on limited registration unless that is what I am looking for and breeding rights don't matter or wait for papers any more.

When I put pups up on an ad on any site, the ones pictured are all for sale and once chosen, I won't remove a pup from that buyer unless the buyer backs out or something serious wrong with the pup.

Julia
Karl & Julia Heidbrink
Buggytown Bird Dogs
Central Georgia

chuckanut
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
Location: Northern US Rockies

Re: Breeder question

Post by chuckanut » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:25 pm

Wow. I had no idea this would be so controversial. I talked to my vet a while ago and she asked a good question "Is he expecting you to sign anything or hold your registration papers until a litter hits the ground?" My answer was no. He hasn't asked for any paperwork (I will be double checking on this) or signed contracts. It seems like it is a 'gentleman's' agreement that, according to my vet, if the time comes and I don't want to do it then I am legally not bound. That being said, I'm going to take some of the information that I've picked up from this topic and have a conversation with the guy and I may just hold out for the next litter. Not sure I want this hanging over my head. Thanks for all the input, makes me feel better about my skepticism but all told, I don't think the guy is a bad guy. Maybe a little lax as far as how he handled this but not intentionally out to rip anyone off or anything.

fuzznut
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 4:52 am
Location: St James City, FL

Re: Breeder question

Post by fuzznut » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:35 pm

This is one reason I don't tell people they have numerical picks. The proverbial pick of the litter is an old wives tale! What I may consider to be the pick puppy you might dislike, and visa versa!

In my opinion, picking a puppy at 5 or 6 wks old is too early. They change so much in the next couple of weeks that all you are choosing on for the most part is color or markings. Not a great reason to choose a dog. Going to see them, making mental notes on the ones you like is one thing, making a definite decision is not a great idea. I would wait to make my final decision when they are 8 wks and ready to go.

Many breeders will do breeding contracts with bitch puppy buyers, or offer it. it's a good way for a small breeder to continue their program without having to keep a bunch of bitches around. If you trust the breeder, if their dogs are good and proven, it's also a good way for you to get your next dog from a good stud. That is IF you trust the breeder! If you don't trust them, why would you want to buy a dog from them with or without any strings?

Ray, what you are suggesting is telling this guy to agree to something and then not do it. That's horrible! As a breeder myself, if I make a deal with a puppy buyer I certainly hope they would keep up their end of the bargain, just like they expect me to keep mine. If they don't want to do what the breeder is suggesting, then just say no, I don't think I want to do that. Then the breeder has a decision to make. But to suggest someone lie to the breeder????? I've had that happen to me in the past and it's soured me greatly.

Bottom line, breeder gets to keep whatever puppy he wants. I would bet(or hope) that this was conveyed during conversations way back when the original deposit was sent in. People have selective memories and the OP may have simply forgotten, or not heard that part. Or maybe the breeder didn't even think about it 8 months ago?

I think you can choose to look at this in a positive light. You get a nice puppy, that if and when she proves herself to be worthy to be bred you get the benefit of an experienced breeder. If you choose to do this, get it all on paper! Ask every question you can think of. It can be a good deal. Or choose a different puppy and be done with it.

Different breeders have different reasons for breeding. Not all can keep a dozen dogs, so making alliances with puppy buyers is a good way to go.Others don't want anything to do with a puppy once the check is cashed and out the door. Both can work.
Fuzz
Home of NAFC/DC Ariel's Justa Gotta Go Now- 2010 AKC Gun Dog 1 hr. CH R/U
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/

User avatar
JuliaH
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Barnesville GA

Re: Breeder question

Post by JuliaH » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:54 pm

I think the bottom line here is that the buyer and the seller need to be up front and CLEAR on their wants and needs.... only then can any deal work. I learned early, for instance, to not believe the "papers have not arrived from AKC and I will send them in a couple of days" line... buyers don't always know the ins and outs, but those quick, hard lessons don't always leave a good taste.

I believe it is important to spend time talking with the prospective buyer. Then we know what to expect. I have taken deposits and I have taken people's word, and both work because plenty of time is spent to know what to expect. Is anything foolproof? NO, and it never will be. Breeders know what a litter outta be from the choices of parents and watching pups interact with each other, and with people, can affirm or deny the wisdom of that breeding.

Buyers know what they want in a pup, too often it is color and to me that outta be the last item to choose by, but I listen to the criteria and then try to help with the decision. A conversation or two will generally help the breeder and the buyer come together on their respective wants and needs, and then disagreements are fewer. And, a pup in a bad situation is never a good thing...

I also believe the last place to air dirty laundry is the forum, whether the buyer is upset or the breeder is upset. All of us have had experiences that taught us hard lessons and if we learn from those we are better for the education. :)

Julia
Karl & Julia Heidbrink
Buggytown Bird Dogs
Central Georgia

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:08 pm

wow....guess I struck a nerve?
Last edited by Outlaw on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
dan v
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:33 pm
Location: Central MN

Re: Breeder question

Post by dan v » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:42 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:It is very common in conformation dogs and some performance dogs, however, ot would be pointless to breed a litter from a bitch he did not own, so I would suspect that contract involves a co-ownership, also. He really should not have presented the hold back pup and may be shopping for a co-owner. Co-ownerships are a freaking nightmare, especially for novice owners. I'd choose a different pup.
I know I'm late to this party, but why would it be pointless for the breeder to have a litter by a female he didn't own? The original breeder could enter into a lease agreement with said owner of the female being bred.
Dan

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Breeder question

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:51 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It is very common in conformation dogs and some performance dogs, however, ot would be pointless to breed a litter from a bitch he did not own, so I would suspect that contract involves a co-ownership, also. He really should not have presented the hold back pup and may be shopping for a co-owner. Co-ownerships are a freaking nightmare, especially for novice owners. I'd choose a different pup.
I know I'm late to this party, but why would it be pointless for the breeder to have a litter by a female he didn't own? The original breeder could enter into a lease agreement with said owner of the female being bred.
You are correct that the dam's breeder would be credited with breeding the litter if he leased her. I didn't understand that to be the case here and didn't complicate the situation by mentioning it.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:19 pm

Howie , I figured you would be in agreement with me -I know you and I share alot the same philosophies on breeding proven genetics and a focus on consistent production or not breeding at all.
Last edited by Outlaw on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:21 pm

QuailHollow wrote:
Outlaw wrote:I would have a couple concerns here:

1) Why wasn't a co-ownership or a private treaty to breed disclosed ahead of time? Or is it standard for this breeder and disclosed via website or email correspondence earlier?

2) If a breeder is confident in their product then the pick should truly not matter to them...if a litter is consistent as it should be and a breeder plans to keep a pup for themselves, then they should be very content with any puppy they have produced as their own pick.... I usually let everybody pick their preferences and then whatever is left at the end I am perfectly confident to take as my pick pup as my personal dog....if a breeder is doing their job....you should be able to put all of the puppies in a sack and pick one blind folded and they all be that consistent.

I also don't understand "deposits" on a litter, if a breeder is worth their salt and truly has a "waiting list" for pups then no deposit should ever be necessary...if you don't want the pup they simply move to the next on the list and so on, I've never taken a deposit in 20+ years...

3) I'd ask the breeder straight out...why this pup and not another-are you not confident in your other pups? Is this your standard request with your female pups? and if not why did you not apprise me of this earlier?

My guess is when you explain and ask these items you may see clearer the picture....that being said...be ready to say "no thank you" and ask for your deposit back ...things and stories may change at that point. Plenty of quality litters out there...good luck.


EPIC. :roll:
Your dogs are perfect. You're work here is done.
Really ???? There is no "perfect" dog, at least I have never seen one, and, I certainly didn't insinuate that anyones were....my point was..and I would only hope as a breeder you would agree, that any responsible breeder should have the confidence in ANY litter they are putting on the ground to accept ANY pup from that litter as there own personal dog or they shouldn't be breeding that litter in the first place. That being said...it really shouldn't matter which pup the breeder takes as there own and if it does...then inconsistencies of that magnatude in the litter would dictate that the breeding likely shouldn't have occurred in the first place. Sure there are slightly better pups from individual litters but as a whole...the breeder should have enough pride, confidence and skill in their breeding program that they shouldn't be jockying for position on a single select pup from one of their litters, and, if that is truly the case and they are... then they wouldn't garner my confidence in what they are producing. An ethical breeder wants to produce the best possible pups to better the breed...and also wants those high quality pups placed among those that appreciate them for just that purpose...the breeder simply wouldn't be respected by anyone if they kept the only "good ones" that they "accidentally" produced for only themselves. Nuff said.
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:14 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Outlaw wrote:Howie , I figured you would be in agreement with me -I know you and I share alot the same philosophies on breeding proven genetics and a focus on consistent production or not breeding at all
I don't if we would totally agree on philosophies or not. When I announced my litter 14mths. ago I was handed 2 deposits on females. The next day 2 more on males. If I would have said I was taking first pick of either sex, that's the way it would be!!!

Agreed, but the point was you did not have to...and if you had, you would have done so ethically and for a specific reason, to add a specific sex, etc. to your program whatever that might have been....in this case you have confidence in your genetics and surety in what you have produced that I'd assume you wouldn't hesitate for one minute to be comfortable taking any pup from any litter you have had as your own personal dog and that was my point on being an ethical breeder with the breeds best interest at heart. That was my quote you pasted, not Casey's or Quail Hollows.
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

fuzznut
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 4:52 am
Location: St James City, FL

Re: Breeder question

Post by fuzznut » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:25 pm

Outlaw, can't disagree with your theory, except for one thing. Most puppies go to families who want hunting dogs and family companions. Most will want to spay the bitches. In that case, we as breeders aren't doing much to better the breed if the truly good bitches in a litter go off and are spayed. If all the bitches are sold off and spayed, that's the end of the line.

And it sure would be great if every single puppy in every litter were little carbon copies of each other in temperament, conformation and abilities, and if that is what you get.... please send the recipee! I'll agree that the basic abilities should be there in each of the little darlings, but are they all the same and equal?

Heck, I've seen repeat breedings where the first litter didn't even appear to be related to the second litter. Ahhhh, if only we could line those darn genes up just perfectly every time..... we keep trying!
Fuzz
Home of NAFC/DC Ariel's Justa Gotta Go Now- 2010 AKC Gun Dog 1 hr. CH R/U
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:37 pm

Fuzz, Amen...I agree whole heartedly...in a perfect world right? See my post on the Culled Puppy thread :). Funny thing is, all of this arduous verbiage was merely to suggest to the OP...know your breeder better, don't be affraid to ask why and make sure they are ethical and that they are solid on what they produce ....nothing more. Always a challenge to get a half hour conversation into a couple sentences !! :)
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
Karen
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1647
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:03 am
Location: Analomink, PA

Re: Breeder question

Post by Karen » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:38 pm

I own a bitch this way. The breeder (VERY reputable, great eye and 2nd generation in the breed) called me out of the blue and offered me a 9 week old bitch...for FREE. She grew up into everything he thought she would, and more. The deal was pretty simple.

Tess lives with me
Breeder grooms her for shows, handlers her in specialties, board her for free when she's in season or we're away. He was a constant source of support, has given me a dozen grooming lessons, has been there when I've had questions, and has shown Tess to some pretty awesome wins (Best of Winners from the bred by class at our National Specialty, at 20 months old).

For all of this, he wanted 1 litter. It was a TERRIFIC deal for me. I got a much nicer bitch than I could have ever dreamed of, I have 2 puppies at home right now out of her (they're 13 weeks old now), and my step-daughter should start handling Tess in junior showmanship this summer.

I did not have a contract with the breeder. In retrospect I should have, but alls well than ends well.
ImageImage
Woodland's Spirit of Big Oaks & Woodland's Money Pit

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeder question

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:05 pm

fuzznut wrote:Outlaw, can't disagree with your theory, except for one thing. Most puppies go to families who want hunting dogs and family companions. Most will want to spay the bitches. In that case, we as breeders aren't doing much to better the breed if the truly good bitches in a litter go off and are spayed. If all the bitches are sold off and spayed, that's the end of the line.

And it sure would be great if every single puppy in every litter were little carbon copies of each other in temperament, conformation and abilities, and if that is what you get.... please send the recipee! I'll agree that the basic abilities should be there in each of the little darlings, but are they all the same and equal?

Heck, I've seen repeat breedings where the first litter didn't even appear to be related to the second litter. Ahhhh, if only we could line those darn genes up just perfectly every time..... we keep trying!
Fuzz
So true

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
nikegundog
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
Location: SW Minnesota

Re: Breeder question

Post by nikegundog » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:38 pm

Every time these discissions come up it seems that the breeders terms are NEVER spelled out on there website. If all these practices are so common why not put it on the puppy page of your webpage instead of trying to backdoor your buyers? IMO breeders don't spell it out on there webpages is because buyers wouldn't agree to all there terms, however once they get the "non-refundable deposite" they pull out all their unspecified conditions. After reading all these threads I have come to the conclusion that any breeder who does not list ALL their conditions on their webpage are unethical breeders, worse than the puppy mills, and backyard breeders they are always complaining about. That goes for limited registration, breeding rights, naming rights, selection rights, etc, if you feel you have a right to any of it, spell it out front and center so the buyer can decide if its worth doing business with you.

chuckanut
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
Location: Northern US Rockies

Re: Breeder question

Post by chuckanut » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:24 am

Long story short, I had a conversation with the guy this evening and we're gonna go ahead and take the pup. I did let him know that I was a little less than impressed with how the whole thing came about and he apologized and said he thought I was clear on how he operated... miscommunication I guess. Anyway, we're going to hold off on any paperwork until she's two or three, see how she's coming along as far as ability and conformation and go from there. Good lesson to learn I suppose and in the future I'm going to ask a heck of a lot more questions before I give a breeder a deposit. Crossing my fingers that it'll all work out.

fuzznut
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 4:52 am
Location: St James City, FL

Re: Breeder question

Post by fuzznut » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:42 am

Nike, I think you can find those types of spelled out terms and conditions out there in internet land. Many of those breeders also take credit cards and will ship you a puppy sight unseen and never have to talk to you. They are out there if that is what makes you comfortable.

Heck, there is one kennel out there that will sell you one of the following 8 wk olds....
STANDARD pup $750.00 ___________
PERFORMANCE pup $900.00 ___________
SUPREME pup $1250.00 ___________
ITE pup $1500.00 ___________
ULTIMA pup $2500.00 ___________
STARTED & TRAINED $3000.00+ ___________

just put your check mark next to what you want, put your check in the mail, fill out the order form, and wella---- you'll get your dog.

It's a pretty slick operation and probably what most would love to see... just like ordering a new car. Pick the options you want. Just not sure that in reality the consumer should purchase a living breathing critter in this way. But then again.... it sure would be easier for the breeder too!

Fuzz
Home of NAFC/DC Ariel's Justa Gotta Go Now- 2010 AKC Gun Dog 1 hr. CH R/U
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Breeder question

Post by QuailHollow » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:33 am

Outlaw wrote:
QuailHollow wrote:
Outlaw wrote:I would have a couple concerns here:

1) Why wasn't a co-ownership or a private treaty to breed disclosed ahead of time? Or is it standard for this breeder and disclosed via website or email correspondence earlier?

2) If a breeder is confident in their product then the pick should truly not matter to them...if a litter is consistent as it should be and a breeder plans to keep a pup for themselves, then they should be very content with any puppy they have produced as their own pick.... I usually let everybody pick their preferences and then whatever is left at the end I am perfectly confident to take as my pick pup as my personal dog....if a breeder is doing their job....you should be able to put all of the puppies in a sack and pick one blind folded and they all be that consistent.

I also don't understand "deposits" on a litter, if a breeder is worth their salt and truly has a "waiting list" for pups then no deposit should ever be necessary...if you don't want the pup they simply move to the next on the list and so on, I've never taken a deposit in 20+ years...

3) I'd ask the breeder straight out...why this pup and not another-are you not confident in your other pups? Is this your standard request with your female pups? and if not why did you not apprise me of this earlier?

My guess is when you explain and ask these items you may see clearer the picture....that being said...be ready to say "no thank you" and ask for your deposit back ...things and stories may change at that point. Plenty of quality litters out there...good luck.


EPIC. :roll:
Your dogs are perfect. You're work here is done.
Really ???? There is no "perfect" dog, at least I have never seen one, and, I certainly didn't insinuate that anyones were....my point was..and I would only hope as a breeder you would agree, that any responsible breeder should have the confidence in ANY litter they are putting on the ground to accept ANY pup from that litter as there own personal dog or they shouldn't be breeding that litter in the first place. That being said...it really shouldn't matter which pup the breeder takes as there own and if it does...then inconsistencies of that magnatude in the litter would dictate that the breeding likely shouldn't have occurred in the first place. Sure there are slightly better pups from individual litters but as a whole...the breeder should have enough pride, confidence and skill in their breeding program that they shouldn't be jockying for position on a single select pup from one of their litters, and, if that is truly the case and they are... then they wouldn't garner my confidence in what they are producing. An ethical breeder wants to produce the best possible pups to better the breed...and also wants those high quality pups placed among those that appreciate them for just that purpose...the breeder simply wouldn't be respected by anyone if they kept the only "good ones" that they "accidentally" produced for only themselves. Nuff said.
Yes, as you have redefined your point - I am with you on this. I am sorry, was having a bad day.

User avatar
Outlaw
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:21 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Breeder question

Post by Outlaw » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:08 pm

No worries at all Quail...it happens to the best of us...I hope your day is better and I wish you and yours a VERY Merry Christmas !!!
"Most certainly there are no things in this world can equal the love of God, Family, Friends and a great Bird Dog."
www.OutlawGundogs.com

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Breeder question

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:17 pm

chuckanut wrote:Long story short, I had a conversation with the guy this evening and we're gonna go ahead and take the pup. I did let him know that I was a little less than impressed with how the whole thing came about and he apologized and said he thought I was clear on how he operated... miscommunication I guess. Anyway, we're going to hold off on any paperwork until she's two or three, see how she's coming along as far as ability and conformation and go from there. Good lesson to learn I suppose and in the future I'm going to ask a heck of a lot more questions before I give a breeder a deposit. Crossing my fingers that it'll all work out.
I think you'll be fine and may have the opportunity to take your involvement with the breed to a more formal level. Nice to see that the breeder was willing to work on the relationship. Good luck with the pup.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
tfbirddog2
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 842
Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 7:56 pm
Location: Colby,KS

Re: Breeder question

Post by tfbirddog2 » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:39 pm

If it were me if I were to do that, I wouldnt do a co ownership, I would just have a contract for setting up the first litter and exspenses ect.., if I werent keeping it myself and was selling it to someone. I would try to get that pup bought by a friend to keep it uncomplicated! It to me just gets a little to over the top businessy to be asking for a contract like that. Thats why on my litters I reserve right to stud fee(pup trade) or, my pick then open to buyers.
" Everyone makes fun of a redneck till their car breaks down"Larry the Cable Guy

User avatar
nikegundog
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
Location: SW Minnesota

Re: Breeder question

Post by nikegundog » Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:39 pm

In these arrangements what happens when you have your dog trained for a year,then it dies during labor? How much does the breeder owe you $3000/$4000?

User avatar
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:38 pm
Location: Central Nebraska

Re: Breeder question

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:16 pm

seriously how many dogs die during labor??

You all are making this whole deal into soemthing its NOT!! Merry Christmas!!!
Robert Myers

Rajin Kennel

308-870-3448

Brittanys are Best enough said...

Image

BBD's Ca-Ching
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1061

Brushbustin's Ebbie SH
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=678

BNJ's Dirty Dozen Dixie
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=869

User avatar
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Central Iowa

Re: Breeder question

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:49 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:Some people just over react!! Read what the guy has said, he did say the breeder said he might keep one and they talked about breeding rights prior! The breeder doesn't wanna own the dog but see some things in that pup that he likes and would like the option to lease her back to breed at a later time, what is wrong with that??? It isn't going to cost the owner anything. He can get a pup as fee for leasing his bitch or cash! Come on people read!! There isn't anything wrong with this. Maybe the breeder will decide later that he was wrong and doesn't wish to have her in his breeding program. I understand why he wants to do it and it makes sense to me!!!
+1. I wouldn't co-own, but a lease a couple years down the road sounds OK to me. I would bet that he will help you train that pup, just so he can keep an eye on her progress.

Doug

User avatar
JuliaH
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:12 pm
Location: Barnesville GA

Re: Breeder question

Post by JuliaH » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:01 pm

Probably not many, but there is much to consider in co-owning dogs! Who pays for what.... what happens if the owners want to breed to different dogs? What happens if one owner wants a show dog and a JH title and the other owner wants something different such as field trialing? Who pays for what in the costs of showing, Hunt Testing, Trialing? Who is going to be the trainer, or is the dog to be handled by one or the other of the owners? And so on......

Co-owning is a dangerous proposition. Even between (or among) good friends, it is easy to have disagreements over the smallest things.

And, what if something happens to the dog? Who pays for what?

It is not something to be entered into lightly, and I don't do it at all. There are just too many ways it can go wrong....

Julia
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:seriously how many dogs die during labor??

You all are making this whole deal into soemthing its NOT!! Merry Christmas!!!
Karl & Julia Heidbrink
Buggytown Bird Dogs
Central Georgia

User avatar
terrym
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Bradford, Ontario

Re: Breeder question

Post by terrym » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:49 am

I would never co own a dog. Now entering into an agreement with the breeder about having a pick of my litter if I was planning on breeding her anyway wouldn't bother me assuming I was in agreement with the potential sire. I understand the breeder wanting to work on his bloodline and if I'm buying a pup from him I obviously have faith in his breeding.
I don't like people who don't like dogs......

Wild Mtn muddy toes Tucker
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=3772

User avatar
nikegundog
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:21 am
Location: SW Minnesota

Re: Breeder question

Post by nikegundog » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:15 am

Why would any breeder want to breed to a puppy they had no idea how it performed? Pretty tough to find a proper stud dog to go with the traits/faults of a dog they haven't seen since it was 8 weeks old. Sounds like this guy doesn't know anything about breeding, not the guy I would want to go into a breeding contract with. I guess if its all about the money and nothing about the betterment of the breed, I would say go for it.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Breeder question

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:51 am

I n\think Robby hit the nail on the head, You people are trying real hrd to make a mole out of a mole hill. I have two pups out somewhere doing there thing now that I asked for breeding right when they were sold. All that means is if they turn out to be what we expect then I might want to use them back into our breeding. No one mentioned co-owned or much of anything else. Just sounded to me like the breeder thought that particular pup was one he would like to keep in the circle and use at sometime if it works out for them. I sure like to be able to call my buyers friends and not have to have a contract for everything when a hand shake will work just as well.

Merry Christmas
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
bossman
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: McKinney, Tx

Re: Breeder question

Post by bossman » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:10 am

How old are the pups? Lot's can change in a couple of weeks. I'd go back and take a second look at the other female if this is the breeding you want. Her personality might have changed. If not...I'd simply say "thank you very much but I'm out of here". When I buy a pup, it's my pup...Good luck

chuckanut
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:19 am
Location: Northern US Rockies

Re: Breeder question UPDATE

Post by chuckanut » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:58 pm

FYI, after I thought long and hard about this I wound up going with a male that wasn't spoken for yet and he's a great little guy. Just didn't want to get into something that complicated right off the bat. I'm pretty happy with the decision. Thanks for all the input folks and sorry it took so long to let you know how things turned out.

Post Reply