Breeder question

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Re: Breeder question UPDATE

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:25 pm

chuckanut wrote:FYI, after I thought long and hard about this I wound up going with a male that wasn't spoken for yet and he's a great little guy. Just didn't want to get into something that complicated right off the bat. I'm pretty happy with the decision. Thanks for all the input folks and sorry it took so long to let you know how things turned out.
I think you made a wise choice.

I am one of those who believes that when I put my hand out with a check for the purchase price, I want the signed registration papers...right then...right there... being handed to me in my other hand...before I let go of the check.

It is a lot easier that way.

RayG

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Re: Breeder question

Post by snips » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:31 pm

phermes1 wrote:Sounds like there was some miscommunication. He should have let you know up front that that was the pup he planned on keeping, or should never have presented it as an option in the first place.
We don't obligate any of our puppy owners to breed their dogs. We know a few breeders that do and, quite frankly, I don't get it. Som even specifically state the stud to be used. They have no idea if the pup in question will even grow up into something that should be bred, let alone if the chosen stud is a good match. IMHO, it's not responsible breeding.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a pup that came with those conditions. As a breeder, I think it's unreasonable and too much to ask of a puppy owner. Breeding a dog is a lot of work and can be risky to the dam's health, and none of that is what 90% of the puppy buyers out there have in mind when they're looking for a dog.
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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:39 pm

I agree. when you buy a pup it should be yours. All the restrictions and other bs is to benefit the breeder not the buyer. Maybe in some cases if agreed before hand it can be good for all. I know a GSP breeder who never sells breeding rights on a bitch pup. He tells you when and with whom to breed. And he takes them to his kennel and whelps. A bit much for me.But he sells a lot of pups and he has been a long time breeder.
We also have buyers that want us to breed and whelp their bitches. I don't like that either.
You did it right. Every thing is not as it seems in the dog world.
Bought a pup from a breeder last summer. I was the first male deposit but he told me up front they were picking first. I got his pick any way because his wife picked a different pup. so every body is happy. good luck

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Re: Breeder question UPDATE

Post by JuliaH » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:50 am

Ditto what you said, and as a breeder I send for papers when those babies are just a few days old. I was dumb enough to buy my first dogs (twice.... hardheaded or real gullible I guess) with the promise papers would soon be sent to me. Lesson learned. I won't ever do it again because I learned that once $$ change hands and pup goes away from the breeder, sometimes the commitment to get papers to new owners goes away as well. I got the papers for both, but it wasn't by being sweet and kind little me :)

I don't withhold any rights from buyers. When they buy, it's their dog. If I want rights to one of my pups, I keep it. I have sold one or two with the right of first refusal if the new owner does not want to keep a pup but that has never even been a written agreement, just an agreement between friends.... I don't like strings on deals very much :)

Julia

RayGubernat wrote:
chuckanut wrote:FYI, after I thought long and hard about this I wound up going with a male that wasn't spoken for yet and he's a great little guy. Just didn't want to get into something that complicated right off the bat. I'm pretty happy with the decision. Thanks for all the input folks and sorry it took so long to let you know how things turned out.
I think you made a wise choice.

I am one of those who believes that when I put my hand out with a check for the purchase price, I want the signed registration papers...right then...right there... being handed to me in my other hand...before I let go of the check.

It is a lot easier that way.

RayG
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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:47 am

ezzy333 wrote:I n\think Robby hit the nail on the head, You people are trying real hrd to make a mole out of a mole hill. I have two pups out somewhere doing there thing now that I asked for breeding right when they were sold. All that means is if they turn out to be what we expect then I might want to use them back into our breeding. No one mentioned co-owned or much of anything else.
Just sounded to me like the breeder thought that particular pup was one he would like to keep in the circle and use at sometime if it works out for them. I sure like to be able to call my buyers friends and not have to have a contract for everything when a hand shake will work just as well.

Merry Christmas
A hand shake is great until there is a misunderstanding The more you have spelled out the better chances you have of keeping your buyers as friends.
We don't try to force a buyer to take a puppy they don't want. If we don't get what they want we give back their deposit unless they want to put it on a future litter.
The welfare of the puppy is what is important to us. Do we really want a buyer taking home a puppy he don't like? Sometimes it seems like we do too much and it gets a little dicey around picking time. But it all works out.
98% percent of our puppies are spayed and neutered. This is what we encourage, but should the buyer decide to breed it is his decision. He will have the necessary papers. With out paying extra, which would be benificial only to me. Also he will not be require to get some sort of expensive title,
which would also only benefit the breeder.
Sorry the sermon got a little long today
Jerry
We are honored to be able to be part of a very happy time in somebodies life but also are aware of the fact it can be devastating for them if something goes wrong.
The best part of breeding has been the opportunity to meet people whom we would never have met from places we will probably never see and the long term friendships.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by highcotton » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:49 pm

I will admit that I am particular about where my pups go....but once the pup is sold it's yours. I'm not going to tell you what to do with it. If my situation ever gets to the point that I need written contracts to sell a pup....I will stop selling pups.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:36 pm

highcotton wrote:I will admit that I am particular about where my pups go....but once the pup is sold it's yours. I'm not going to tell you what to do with it. If my situation ever gets to the point that I need written contracts to sell a pup....I will stop selling pups.
Amen

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Re: Breeder question

Post by 3Britts » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:39 pm

Karen wrote:I own a bitch this way. The breeder (VERY reputable, great eye and 2nd generation in the breed) called me out of the blue and offered me a 9 week old bitch...for FREE. She grew up into everything he thought she would, and more. The deal was pretty simple.

Tess lives with me
Breeder grooms her for shows, handlers her in specialties, board her for free when she's in season or we're away. He was a constant source of support, has given me a dozen grooming lessons, has been there when I've had questions, and has shown Tess to some pretty awesome wins (Best of Winners from the bred by class at our National Specialty, at 20 months old).

For all of this, he wanted 1 litter. It was a TERRIFIC deal for me. I got a much nicer bitch than I could have ever dreamed of, I have 2 puppies at home right now out of her (they're 13 weeks old now), and my step-daughter should start handling Tess in junior showmanship this summer.

I did not have a contract with the breeder. In retrospect I should have, but alls well than ends well.
I am doing the same thing with a pup as well. I talked to a neighbor of mine who was asking about a pup and offered to give the pup to him in exchange for a breeding between the pup and another dog of mine at a later date. I will be keeping a pup from that litter and I get to train the dog for show and trial, and to hunt.
No problems here, as long as the breeder was upfront about what he wanted.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by JuliaH » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:27 am

This is a good thread that cold have gone real bad... There are many different ways that breeders handle things and that is and should be the case :)

The main thing is that we are honest and upfront and true to ourselves. Lots of thought and time and effort goes into every litter that is planned and we are not like too many "breeders" where our dogs are indiscriminately produced (the shelters and pounds see too many of those).

I have a small written contract that is partly just a reminder that my buyers call me first if they cannot keep their pup. I can and will help them move it along. The buyers do sign that contract and they have a copy of it. I have found it helps them as well as me having another written record of where my pups went. There are no strings though.

Only 2 have come back... one to find a new home because of relocation issues, and then they figured it out and came back to get her :) The other was in bad shape. He is fine now and will be moved along to a new home once that is found for him. All the rest are getting along fine as far as I know :)

If I ever sell, or purchase, a dog with strings attached the buyer will know it up front.... and I would expect to know the terms right away. Nothing wrong as long as something doesn't change in the middle of a deal :)
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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:09 am

excellent post.
Interresting to see how everybody does business.

Our buyers expect to sign a contract. We gaurantee our puppies for life against genetic problems. We need some way to track the dogs. Also require our kennel in the name. But we don't name.
All this means nothing if both parties aren't basically honest.
Having been involved in a deal where a puppy we bought got parvo and died two days after we got her home I know what it is like to be on the buyer's side. We just have a small investment, but the buyer has the waiting time, emotion and finances involved.
GSP ofA rules for ethical breeders require a contract as do most breed clubs.
take care j

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Ralph Ford » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:28 am

Show me a breeder who already has plans on breeding an 8 week old pup later in life, and I'll show you a breeder that has average dogs!

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Karen » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:41 am

Breeding rights is WAY different than breeding plans.
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Re: Breeder question

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:47 am

chuckanut wrote:Hello. I've been lurking around on this site for a while and decided to take the plunge sign up. I need to ask a question of you breeders out there. I have a deposit in on a GSP pup that will be available to take home in a couple weeks. I went out yesterday to make my selection (had first pick of females). When I picked the pup that I want the breeder :x said that was the one he was considering keeping and said if I wanted it then I needed to agree to 'contract' the dog for one litter. Basically he said he will pay the stud fee, vet bills, etc. and I will get a pup or a fee and a portion of the pup sales. Is this normal? Seems shady to me but that is the pup I want. I told him I'd think about it and get back to him today. Any advice you folks could give me would be great.
The breeder does have the say and the choice.... However he when you paid the deposit he knew you wanted a female and therefore should have told you how he wanted to work. The fact that he first took the deposit without explaining how he works, well that is shady !

Sure you can wait, I would take my money and run. If he was not honest from the start how sure are you the pups had all their jabs etc.these breeders give the breed and sport a bad name.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Ralph Ford » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:33 am

Karen wrote:Breeding rights is WAY different than breeding plans.
Yes, it is. In fact, it is quite clever to retain some kind of access to breeding possibilities with certain pups or even litters that you have invested highly in.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:21 pm

It gives breeders a chance to control their lines, With out having to maintain a huge no. of dogs and is the best way to keep track of track dogs you may want to breed in the future. Breeders who don't have an idea that they might want to breed this pup later, when the pup is eight weeks old, probably don't have a long range plan. We are always looking three years down the road
The average AKC breeder last 4 years.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or dishonest about this practice if the buyer is aware up front. We try to place our best female pups with people who are willing to do that for us. We can't keep them all until the breed or not decision is made.
My long time GSP breeding friend has done this for forty or more years. He names the litters alphabetically and does not sell breeding rights on females. He also gaurantees the pup to be free of genetic problems and to be a suitable companion and hunting dog for the life of the dog. I find that a little frightening since I don't control the training. If you make the dog gunshy he takes it back no questions asked.
He will breed your female with the dog of his choice, whelp her, raise the pups and sell the pups.
You get a pup or the price of a pup. If you own the male you get 2X that. I personally thing the bitch should be worth more than the dog because it takes much more out of her. It can be a good deal for some people if it is all spelled out to begin with. It gives him a chance to control his linebreeding.
Much better than the breeder who says if you want to breed the dog you have to pay X- dollars for the papers after the dog is old enough for x-rays and has a title that I spent the money to get. That is not helping the breed that is helping the breeder.
good luck :D
jerry

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:25 pm

Ralph Ford wrote:Show me a breeder who already has plans on breeding an 8 week old pup later in life, and I'll show you a breeder that has average dogs!
I think exactly the opposite

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Re: Breeder question

Post by 3Britts » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:48 pm

cjhills wrote:
Ralph Ford wrote:Show me a breeder who already has plans on breeding an 8 week old pup later in life, and I'll show you a breeder that has average dogs!
I think exactly the opposite
It has been my experience that the best breeders have a good idea of how good a pup will be. They evaluate the pups
for perspective owners and for trial or show prospects. If a breeder cannot give me some idea of what a pup will be like
at an early age, I worry.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by 3Britts » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:43 pm

gpblitz wrote:Contracts , why not just hand out toliet paper. I'll give a female pup to someone and get a pup back down the road.
Too true, as most contracts are not worth the paper they are written on. I think that the contracts do serve to remind the new owner that there is someone who will always be there for them and the pup should something go wrong. In my case, I will be a co-owner until the unwritten contract is met, then I will sign over full ownership to my neighbor. He and I have talked over this and he is good with this.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by highcotton » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:14 pm

I bred one of my females this very morning to a male dog I sold as a pup. I paid the man a stud fee to breed to HIS dog.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

gpblitz wrote:I'm old school. hand shake covers it. I won't even co-own a dog with my wife. If a dog isn't up to my expectations it's sold without having to deal with a second party.
I'm with you, Howie.

I had a thought the other day (yep - my one for the week): If a buyer bought a male pup from you and put some titles on him (UT, CGC minimum), and if the pup was representative of what you were after as a breeder, would it be worth a pup from a future litter as a stud fee if you (or another breeder for that matter) used the dog at stud? I like the idea of having an incentive to chase a few titles - perhaps a pup a few years down the road??

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Ralph Ford » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:32 pm

3Britts wrote:
cjhills wrote:
Ralph Ford wrote:Show me a breeder who already has plans on breeding an 8 week old pup later in life, and I'll show you a breeder that has average dogs!
I think exactly the opposite
It has been my experience that the best breeders have a good idea of how good a pup will be. They evaluate the pups
for perspective owners and for trial or show prospects. If a breeder cannot give me some idea of what a pup will be like
at an early age, I worry.

When we clarify by stating "the best breeders", I would tend to agree more, they have a better eye for early talent. The situation I have seen many times though is a fella having a pup out of successful lines and determining right then and there he is going to breed that dog when it's old enough. The rose colored shades go on, and that dog could be an average candidate at best, but he gets bred. You get average puppies.
Now I'm not saying average is bad. Truth is, the average bird dog has more skills than most can take advantage of anyway.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:22 pm

This is starting to make my head hurt.
To Howie: Whatever trips your trigger. We like our contract because it lets the buyer know what we expect from him and what he can expect from us. It has nothing to do with co-owner or anything else. It has never been a issue. Perhaps because it is all covered up front. It works for us and our clients.

To azdoggin and who ever else: Why would you not expect to pay the owner of the stud dog a stud fee to breed your bitch. Whether he bought it from you or any body else. We do that regularly.
The old breeder who I made reference to chooses not to sell females as breeding stock. He is big on line breeding and does this to protect his mother lines. If you buy a female from him it is either spayed or on limited papers it is not co-owned. He controls the breeding.
I don't necessarily agree or disagree but if you buy a female pup from him that is what you agree to do. It is clearly explained and he has sold probably hundreds of dogs in that manner over the last 50 yrs. All old german breeders did this same thing. He has had some very good titled dogs and has a class operation.
Thanks for your time Jerry

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Re: Breeder question

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:45 pm

Jerry - I don't expect anything ---- my question was that if I owned a stud dog that a breeder deemed worthy to sire a litter, would it be reasonable to ask for a pup as the fee? I didn't word my question very clearly...

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:15 pm

That is pretty much how it works. either a puppy or the price of a puppy. Which in his case is $1200.
If you own the stud dog and the bitch both you get that 2x. I feel like the bitch should be worth more than the stud but it works for him. it is definitely not what I would want to do but some people have got some very good dogs out of the deal. If you like line breeding and his lines it is a oretty good way to go. My friend has a dog and a bitch from him which they have bred twice. He takes the bitch home at about a month and whelps her and deals with the pups.
Howie is right most contracts would not hold up in court. But I seen a case where his did.

We just are better off without misunderstandings. Some of the big kennels we have dealt with have been the worst. Once they get there hands on your deposit it is gone. Especially if they tell you how honest they are.
Thanks again I think I've rode this old pony far enough for one day.
Jerry

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:44 pm

I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder that gave me any stipulations whatsoever. I also would not sign a contract, its my dog and I can breed it to a poodle if I want to, or train it to do whatever I want it to do. I agree with a breeder being selective to whom he sells a dog to, but once money exchanges hands its mine to do with what I want. JMO

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Re: Breeder question

Post by huntcrazed » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:02 pm

The breeder in question is not a pro.
Get a dog from someone else ,you will probably have better chances to get a better dog.
This behavior suggests a breeder that is not experienced to know what he has and also a breeder that does not know how to be proper in relationship to his customers.
Anyone that gets a dog from a breeder with this kind of arrangement runs the chance to get the short end.
It is not a two way street and good breeders do not make loose( after the fact of deposit and offer to pick) deals of that sort unless they are relating to personal friends that are breeders also.
At six weeks a good breeder can tell the conformation the dog will have when grown and the rest should be from what his line is in genes.
Since he does not know because his is not a pro he wants to have his customers to participate in breeding.....not a pro practice.
Ask him to get the pup you want under your initial agreement and breed it if you want to in the future on your call or get your money back and go else where.
If he does not agree and wants to keep your money while you get nothing you can prevail since it is only fair.
Flaky breeders breed bad dogs.
My 2 cents

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Re: Breeder question

Post by huntcrazed » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:02 pm

The breeder in question is not a pro.
Get a dog from someone else ,you will probably have better chances to get a better dog.
This behavior suggests a breeder that is not experienced to know what he has and also a breeder that does not know how to be proper in relationship to his customers.
Anyone that gets a dog from a breeder with this kind of arrangement runs the chance to get the short end.
It is not a two way street and good breeders do not make loose( after the fact of deposit and offer to pick) deals of that sort unless they are relating to personal friends that are breeders also.
At six weeks a good breeder can tell the conformation the dog will have when grown and the rest should be from what his line is in genes.
Since he does not know because his is not a pro he wants to have his customers to participate in breeding.....not a pro practice.
Ask him to get the pup you want under your initial agreement and breed it if you want to in the future on your call or get your money back and go else where.
If he does not agree and wants to keep your money while you get nothing you can prevail since it is only fair.
Flaky breeders breed bad dogs.
My 2 cents

Mario

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:12 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I personally would never buy a dog from a breeder that gave me any stipulations whatsoever. I also would not sign a contract, its my dog and I can breed it to a poodle if I want to, or train it to do whatever I want it to do. I agree with a breeder being selective to whom he sells a dog to, but once money exchanges hands its mine to do with what I want. JMO
If the dog gets dysplasia or congenital heart failure other genetic problems in a few years is it still yours.
I bought two puppies last summer one with a signed agreement and one without. I feel alot more comfortable with the one with agreement If something goes wrong
Last edited by cjhills on Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:14 pm

Of course. I would not expect to be held accountable for some random disease years down the road. My 10 year old GSP died this year from kidney failure, should I hold the guy I bought him from responsible?

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:18 pm

No. that's not genetic. thats a disease

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:20 pm

cjhills wrote:No. that's not genetic. thats a disease
Kidney disease can be genetic, so can cancer. So if I bought a pup from you and at age 5 and it died of cancer you would replace it for me?

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Re: Breeder question

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:39 pm

huntcrazed wrote:At six weeks a good breeder can tell the conformation the dog will have when grown and the rest should be from what his line is in genes.
Mario
Gee, wish you hadn't told me this. Here I have been doing this for 50 some years and not only do I not qualify but I don't know any that do. Know a slug of breeders I thought were good but -----------------------------------

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Re: Breeder question

Post by 3Britts » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
huntcrazed wrote:At six weeks a good breeder can tell the conformation the dog will have when grown and the rest should be from what his line is in genes.
Mario
Gee, wish you hadn't told me this. Here I have been doing this for 50 some years and not only do I not qualify but I don't know any that do. Know a slug of breeders I thought were good but -----------------------------------

Ezzy
Now Ezzy, stop that. We are not supposed to agree.
I have been doing this for a good while and the one thing that I can tell you at 6 weeks is that the conformation maybe has or maybe hasn't shown itself yet. I can tell you if the dog has a big personality, a shy nature or somewhere in between. But conformation, no.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:46 am

Elkhunter wrote:
cjhills wrote:No. that's not genetic. thats a disease
Kidney disease can be genetic, so can cancer. So if I bought a pup from you and at age 5 and it died of cancer you would replace it for me?
Yes. If our vets agree that it is genetic. We will refund your purchase price. Generally we are talking genetic disease we can test for.
We replaced one that got hit by a car. just thought it was the right thing to do.
jerry

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Re: Breeder question

Post by Jiminla » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:53 am

Do not do this. Think of 2 things-who will whelp this litter and will it tie up your female during hunting season? I would not agree to breed my jip unless it's under my conditions.

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Re: Breeder question UPDATE

Post by RoostersMom » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:46 am

chuckanut wrote:FYI, after I thought long and hard about this I wound up going with a male that wasn't spoken for yet and he's a great little guy. Just didn't want to get into something that complicated right off the bat. I'm pretty happy with the decision. Thanks for all the input folks and sorry it took so long to let you know how things turned out.
The OP has already made his choice on the pup. He doesn't need any more advice on what to do about this situation. Not to say the discussion that has continued isn't good. Just saying that he doesn't need the advice about what to do anymore, since he has already got a great little male pup (which I do not see pictures of yet - so how can I send the "ohh what a cutie" posts back to him).

It is very interesting to me in reading the continuing posts how much breeders vary in what they are requiring of a good dog owner. Kudos to those that really have the welfare of the pup in mind - making sure he goes to the best home and isn't out there breeding with poodles :D .

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Re: Breeder question

Post by cjhills » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:28 am

You are absolutely right. Sorry I might have led things a little the wrong direction. But I found it very interresting.
The problem with old school is there are not many left and we have to deal with new school. They like to know what to expect and have some support. Not just give me the puppy and the registration take the money and run.
Thanks to everybody for your input . It has been interresting Jerry

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Re: Breeder question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:50 pm

I apologize in advance for something that is pretty much off topic, but was batted back and forth a bit. Conformation at an early age.

I am most definitely not a conformation person, but I understand that there is a school of thought that a puppy, at exactly eight weeks of age, is, a miniature of what it will be as an adult in terms of conformation.

As I understand it, the proportions are the same at exactly eight weeks as they will be when the dog is fully grown.

I actually saw a VHS tape of the evaluation procedures once, a looong time ago. I believe there was a couple who were contracrtedby variioujs b reeders to perform these evaluations on their litters.

Now I don't know it this was a pile of cowdung or if it had some validity. Has anyone else heard of this??

The other thing I would like to comment breifly on is the Volhard Puppy aptitude test. I have used it several times to select the boldest, most independent puppy out of litter. It has identified those youngsters.

The testing also includes a fetching type test as a measure of the puppy's willingness to work with and for you. I understand that the folks who run guide dogs for the blind started using a variation of this typoe test when selecting candidatesfor guide dogs. Apparently using this test to select puppies has made a major positive impact on the extremely high rate of failure for guide dogs.

So, I do think there are things you can dog with fairly young dogs to improve your odds of getting the kind of dog you want.

RayG

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Re: Breeder question

Post by 3Britts » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:18 pm

The problem with judging a dog for conformation at 8 weeks is that they may or may not grow too little or too much, they can also grow too long or too short in body length. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.
I always plan to show a pup at 8 weeks but wait to make a firm decision until about 4 months. Just my way.

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Re: Breeder question

Post by JIM K » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if it's not the same deal for every female pup buyer. Someone else gets the work and the if the original breeder doesn't go on the dam's papers, it allows them to avoid multiple litter recordkeeping inspections from AKC.
+1. that was my thoughts....might have been the same story no matter which female he chose.
i agree also.

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