How old for e-collar?
How old for e-collar?
I was thinking of putting the e-collar on my 5 month old setter just to let her get used to wearing it for a while and then actually starting to use it in 4-6 weeks. The idea is to put it on right before we do something fun (runs, field walks, finding birds, etc.) so she starts to make positive associations with it and then begin using it on basic commands like 'Here' in a month or so. Does this idea seem reasonable to y'all? Can you think of any reasons not to?
Re: How old for e-collar?
Yes, this seems reasonable. My puppies start wearing an ecollar as soon as their necks are big enough. I put it on them and turn it on each time they go to the field, I usually don't even carry the transmitter. i would estimate that they have worn the collar one hundred times before they are ever shocked.
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Stoneface
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Re: How old for e-collar?
I put my collars on my dogs YOUNG. I want them to be used to it. It's not turned on that young, but I put it on them at as young as three months old to let them get used to the weight. I'll leave it on them for days and, sometimes, even weeks. When I do start to activate it, it's already on them when we go in the field so I just get ahold of the dog and turn it on while it's around their neck. The dog doesn't become collar wise because he can't determine when the collar's on or off and, for that matter, doesn't even realize he's wearing an eCollar. Just to caution you, though, if you do this it's important to regularly inspect where the probes make contact with the dog's skin. Some collars will leave sores on dogs. My very first collar was an Innotek and if the dog kep the collar on for more than a day the collar would give him hard, open sores on this throat. Nowadays I have a Tri-Tronics G3 EXP and can leave it on forever and never have a problem with it.
When to start a dog on an eCollar is all dependent on a dog. I think Ronnie Smith could start using an eCollar on some pups at eight weeks (not that he would or that I'm recommending it) because he knows what he's doing and would be able to keep from jacking the dog up. Too many people rely on an eCollar as an easy button and just lay on it like crazy, but it should be nothing more than an extension of the check cord. As far as I'm concerned, if your dog ever yelps or yips, then you're using too much collar. Of course, if you've got a dog that going after another dog or a kid or going towards traffic, then pump that sucker up!
What makes a great trainer a great trainer is how well he can "dance" with his dog. You have to read your dog in the field, know his limitations and being able to react without too much thinking if you want to be a great trainer. If you know your dog, truly know your dog, then you'll be able to ease him into collar work when he's ready. My point is, there's no standard answer for an age. My last Shorthairs was as soft as bread dough and I knew I had to keep the pressure off him as much as possible. Cinna, my Setter, is a soft dog in the house, but in the field she's got a lot of "go" and drive, so I started her real young, but never did too much with the collar.
One final thing to remember is that when it comes to taining any dog, but especially birddogs, you NEVER want to rush things. Putting a dog in a situation he's not ready for can so easily cause problems, ESPECIALLY where the collar's concerned. So often if you would have just waited another month or two your dog will come out much better than you would have hoped for, but if you rush him and cause a problem it could take you months or years to fix it. Best lesson in the world for someone who is less experienced is to JUST TAKE YOUR TIME. There's no hurry! Better to develop your dog properly in a month than to scare his mentality now.
Hope this helps!
When to start a dog on an eCollar is all dependent on a dog. I think Ronnie Smith could start using an eCollar on some pups at eight weeks (not that he would or that I'm recommending it) because he knows what he's doing and would be able to keep from jacking the dog up. Too many people rely on an eCollar as an easy button and just lay on it like crazy, but it should be nothing more than an extension of the check cord. As far as I'm concerned, if your dog ever yelps or yips, then you're using too much collar. Of course, if you've got a dog that going after another dog or a kid or going towards traffic, then pump that sucker up!
What makes a great trainer a great trainer is how well he can "dance" with his dog. You have to read your dog in the field, know his limitations and being able to react without too much thinking if you want to be a great trainer. If you know your dog, truly know your dog, then you'll be able to ease him into collar work when he's ready. My point is, there's no standard answer for an age. My last Shorthairs was as soft as bread dough and I knew I had to keep the pressure off him as much as possible. Cinna, my Setter, is a soft dog in the house, but in the field she's got a lot of "go" and drive, so I started her real young, but never did too much with the collar.
One final thing to remember is that when it comes to taining any dog, but especially birddogs, you NEVER want to rush things. Putting a dog in a situation he's not ready for can so easily cause problems, ESPECIALLY where the collar's concerned. So often if you would have just waited another month or two your dog will come out much better than you would have hoped for, but if you rush him and cause a problem it could take you months or years to fix it. Best lesson in the world for someone who is less experienced is to JUST TAKE YOUR TIME. There's no hurry! Better to develop your dog properly in a month than to scare his mentality now.
Hope this helps!
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
Re: How old for e-collar?
Does your dog need a collar. We've broke dogs to wing and shot without ever putting a collar on them.
Re: How old for e-collar?
This is my first upland dog so I'm still learning but here is what I'm seeing out of this pup so far: She's very independent and is ranging out up to 200 yards in open cover already, which I am encouraging. She's handling well as far as turning on the whistle and staying in front of me but her recall definitely leaves something to be desired. I keep a check cord on her most of the time and don't give the 'Here' command unless I can get to the cc and make her come. The other thing is that like most pups, she gets into dead stuff. I've taught her the 'off' command and she's really good as long as I am in range to enforce the command but if I'm not she bolts and does what she wants. I'm not demanding much and not putting any kind of pressure on her as far as birds go or anything like that but 'here' and 'off' are two commands that I want obeyed EVERY time and I think the collar might be the best way to deal with it if I want her to be able to range out. Like I said, I'm new but that is my thought process.
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Stoneface
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Re: How old for e-collar?
Man, I'm the same way. If I tell a dog to come, they better come and I mean RIGHT NOW. I was surprised when all the field trial folks told me, "you want to barely be able to catch them at the end of a brace." The reasoning is that you don't want to hinder the dog's run any, but before my current Pointer I've had dogs that would eat up some ground and a good, solid recall never shortened their range an inch.
I go at it real gentle, because there's no need to go at it hard. It's better to teach a dog to recall after he knows he's allowed to run, but, and this is a HUGE "but", recall your dog very, very sparingly. When you are ready to start training the dog to recall, do it in the yard or some more controled place like a yard. I just turn them loose and let them do their thing. I always let the dogs out to use the bathroom one last time before bed and that's a great time to start. When you're ready to go inside, just put the collar on the absolute lowest level you can and call him in. I use my dog's name as the command to come instead of "here" or "come". They already usually know their name, so it's not hard to get their attention. I'll just holler at the dog and then repeat their name in a happy tone while I hold continuous on the transmitter (again, on the lowest level). Most likely the dog will not even pay you the time of day on the lowest level. Be sure not to be too demanding or try to get the dog's attention. Give it a minute, but as soon as it's obvious the dog doesn't even feel the stimulation, go to the next level and keep saying his name. No pressure. The MOMENT he shows any sign of noticing the stimulation, that's the level you want to bookmark in your head. Stay on that level and keep the stimulation on until the dog comes to you. He realizes you're a safe zone, so when he feels that stimulation he'll naturally run to you for relief and when he's well on his way to you, take off the stimulation. If he turns and starts away, put the stimulation back on again and start calling him again. You're not rewarding him for "getting" to you, you're rewarding him - by removing the stimulation - for making up his mind to come to you. That's why you take of the stimulation when he shows a dedicated effort to come to you, even if he's not there yet.
The key here is low, low level stimulation. If he yips, yelps or anything then the collar is WAY too hot. You want the stimulation not to "shock" him, but just to bother him a little - like a fly that won't go away. If you've never used an eCollar before, you may want to put it on another dog first, like a pet, and try it out on them. You'll reinforce their recall and get an idea of how to read a dog when the collar's on. Keep a good eye on them when you hit the button so you can notice the slight change in body language when they feel the stimulation. They'll pick up their pace a little, turn their head like they're trying to bit a fly that's on their neck or they may even hop or jump or something. You should be able to notice pretty quick.
Also, do not underestimate the importance of a more controlled environment. If he's out in the field and out of site and is on point or something and you bump him with the collar, that's not a good thing... and doing anything like this when he's way out makes it pretty much impossible to read his body language sometimes.
When your dog comes to you and you've loved him up and made a fool out of yourself baby talking him, bring him inside. Just do it once. Do it again later in the day or the next day, but just remember to do it SPARINGLY. Too much will teach a dog that you want him by you and he could start to pull in his range a little... or a lot. When you go back for a second time, don't jump right to the level of stimulation you used the first time. Start a level or so lower. Often times my dogs will change the intensity level they required depending on different variables. For example, in the yard Moxy is good at level one or one-and-half, but if we're in the field she's more of a two to a three (out of five). Once you get acclimated with your dogs, you'll be able to jump right to the appropriate level.
Once your dog is recalling real well in the yard - and it won't take long - you can start in the field. But - and this is another big but - do not recall them unless it is absolutely necessary. If you're by a road, fine. If you're getting ready to leave, fine. But, if he's just headed in the wrong direction, or if you want to practice his recall, resist the tempatation... at least for a couple months.
What kind of collar do you use? How's your pup bred?
I go at it real gentle, because there's no need to go at it hard. It's better to teach a dog to recall after he knows he's allowed to run, but, and this is a HUGE "but", recall your dog very, very sparingly. When you are ready to start training the dog to recall, do it in the yard or some more controled place like a yard. I just turn them loose and let them do their thing. I always let the dogs out to use the bathroom one last time before bed and that's a great time to start. When you're ready to go inside, just put the collar on the absolute lowest level you can and call him in. I use my dog's name as the command to come instead of "here" or "come". They already usually know their name, so it's not hard to get their attention. I'll just holler at the dog and then repeat their name in a happy tone while I hold continuous on the transmitter (again, on the lowest level). Most likely the dog will not even pay you the time of day on the lowest level. Be sure not to be too demanding or try to get the dog's attention. Give it a minute, but as soon as it's obvious the dog doesn't even feel the stimulation, go to the next level and keep saying his name. No pressure. The MOMENT he shows any sign of noticing the stimulation, that's the level you want to bookmark in your head. Stay on that level and keep the stimulation on until the dog comes to you. He realizes you're a safe zone, so when he feels that stimulation he'll naturally run to you for relief and when he's well on his way to you, take off the stimulation. If he turns and starts away, put the stimulation back on again and start calling him again. You're not rewarding him for "getting" to you, you're rewarding him - by removing the stimulation - for making up his mind to come to you. That's why you take of the stimulation when he shows a dedicated effort to come to you, even if he's not there yet.
The key here is low, low level stimulation. If he yips, yelps or anything then the collar is WAY too hot. You want the stimulation not to "shock" him, but just to bother him a little - like a fly that won't go away. If you've never used an eCollar before, you may want to put it on another dog first, like a pet, and try it out on them. You'll reinforce their recall and get an idea of how to read a dog when the collar's on. Keep a good eye on them when you hit the button so you can notice the slight change in body language when they feel the stimulation. They'll pick up their pace a little, turn their head like they're trying to bit a fly that's on their neck or they may even hop or jump or something. You should be able to notice pretty quick.
Also, do not underestimate the importance of a more controlled environment. If he's out in the field and out of site and is on point or something and you bump him with the collar, that's not a good thing... and doing anything like this when he's way out makes it pretty much impossible to read his body language sometimes.
When your dog comes to you and you've loved him up and made a fool out of yourself baby talking him, bring him inside. Just do it once. Do it again later in the day or the next day, but just remember to do it SPARINGLY. Too much will teach a dog that you want him by you and he could start to pull in his range a little... or a lot. When you go back for a second time, don't jump right to the level of stimulation you used the first time. Start a level or so lower. Often times my dogs will change the intensity level they required depending on different variables. For example, in the yard Moxy is good at level one or one-and-half, but if we're in the field she's more of a two to a three (out of five). Once you get acclimated with your dogs, you'll be able to jump right to the appropriate level.
Once your dog is recalling real well in the yard - and it won't take long - you can start in the field. But - and this is another big but - do not recall them unless it is absolutely necessary. If you're by a road, fine. If you're getting ready to leave, fine. But, if he's just headed in the wrong direction, or if you want to practice his recall, resist the tempatation... at least for a couple months.
What kind of collar do you use? How's your pup bred?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
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Stoneface
- Rank: 5X Champion
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- Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
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Re: How old for e-collar?
Something else I'll add, and I may be in the minority here, is that if you don't keep your dog in the house, you should start doing it at least a little while each day. House dogs and dogs that are able to build a closer relationship are ten times easier to train than kennel dogs. Take the dog to the store with you, take him fishin' or bring him in at night while you're watching TV before bed. That relationship goes a long, LONG way and you will not be dissabpointed... as long as you keep the dominance.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
Re: How old for e-collar?
Wow. Thanks for all the information. I'll definitely use it. Gert's a house dog and she gets lots of lovin' from everyone (except the cat) and especially me. We've got a really good bond and she's already my little partner in crime 
. She's very confident and I don't want to ruin that so the e-collar experience will be ventured into very carefully. I'll also be testing out the collar on myself just to check out the difference in stimulation levels. I'm sure that'll be lots of fun. Again, thanks. I appreciate the advice.
. She's very confident and I don't want to ruin that so the e-collar experience will be ventured into very carefully. I'll also be testing out the collar on myself just to check out the difference in stimulation levels. I'm sure that'll be lots of fun. Again, thanks. I appreciate the advice.-
Stoneface
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Re: How old for e-collar?
That's great, man. Every trainer should wear an eCollar before they use one. It's not as bad as you think... at least not the first couple levels. After than just make sure you have a vomit bucket near by.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
Re: How old for e-collar?
Maybe I'm just lucky but i have never had a dog wear a training collar for weeeks before I used it.I just transition to it from the cc.
Never had a dog I trained from day 1, ecollar shy either. Did have one i bought at 2 years of age , fear the collar. Took many months to bring her along. From what I tread here though, it is common practise to have the dog wear the collar without correction for .....................Is that true?
When deciding what level to use, you are looking for a sign : ears perk, head jerks up etc. , not any reaction of crying out.
How old? When pup starts ignoring me in the field, it is time.
PS I never use a correction on a dog i can't see.
Never had a dog I trained from day 1, ecollar shy either. Did have one i bought at 2 years of age , fear the collar. Took many months to bring her along. From what I tread here though, it is common practise to have the dog wear the collar without correction for .....................Is that true?
When deciding what level to use, you are looking for a sign : ears perk, head jerks up etc. , not any reaction of crying out.
How old? When pup starts ignoring me in the field, it is time.
PS I never use a correction on a dog i can't see.
Last edited by Sharon on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stoneface
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Re: How old for e-collar?
I don't think it is the norm. I just keep my collars on my dogs almost permanently. It's on them more than it's off them so at the moment they decide to buck me I can correct them and they make no association between the collar and the correction. As far as they are concerned I'm able to magically reach a hundred feet or a hundred yards or whatever and correct them, so they don't jack with me. Kennel dogs may be different, but my dogs are house dogs. That being said, I try not to use it unless I have to. For example, Moxy snuck by my dad and got outside a few months ago and we realized it about twenty minutes later. I went out on the front porch and yelled for her. She didn't come, so I bumped her with the collar and she was barelling down the street to get to me about a half a minute later. Turned a possibly horrible situation into a phenomenal training experience and she had no notion to associate it with the collar.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
Re: How old for e-collar?
I'm not completely sold on the idea of non association. They know where it came from. They just may not know how. I have used my ecollar for several months now. With a pup as young as yours, I would start with the beep on the collar. On mine it is the side button. More times than not it is all I need. I have used much higher for trash breaking but only for that. Your pup will be fine. Most collars come with a book for tips.
Good Luck,
Joe
Good Luck,
Joe
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Stoneface
- Rank: 5X Champion
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- Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas
Re: How old for e-collar?
I think you're right, J. If the guy can get away using a beep or vibration, there's absolutely no reason to use stimulation. I do wish the G3 offered vibration.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
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chukarmandoo
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Re: How old for e-collar?
When the pup can run faster than me the e-collar goes on and that's not very old. Peace of mind and thats it. My guns are loaded and so is the e-collar. When I'm doing yardwork with the pup it's with a cc. When I know he knows the commands then it's the cc and the e-collar. I give command. He doesn't respond- gets nicked, then followed with cc correction. That easy. When I'm just running him in the field and we're not training he has the e-collar on. I don't require much. I don't give any commands. He's a pup. BUT if things go south he Basically hits the end of his leash. No harsh words and no babying and no big deal. My dogs get trash broke pretty much same way. I don't set them up. If it happens, it happens. The e-collar is a great tool and it needs to be used much of the time just for the safety of the pup. There isn't many things that are as fun to watch as a pup running in the field, whether ranging or just stretching out but you still need control.
It's just a long leash. No mystery. Just put it on him and use it. You'll find it doesn't take much. Pups are new to the world and used right they go" WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT".
To put things in perspective, you can do damage to a pup with any training aid. We in general don't understand electricity. We can't see it so therefore it is a form of witchcraft. Find someone that loves their dogs and uses a e-collar and have them help you, and you'll be good as gold. Get a collar that has tone or buzzer. Most of the time that is all you'll need. It beats yelling commands. I'm no trainer but it works for all my dogs, and their soft. Brittany's you know.
It's just a long leash. No mystery. Just put it on him and use it. You'll find it doesn't take much. Pups are new to the world and used right they go" WHAT THE HECK WAS THAT".
To put things in perspective, you can do damage to a pup with any training aid. We in general don't understand electricity. We can't see it so therefore it is a form of witchcraft. Find someone that loves their dogs and uses a e-collar and have them help you, and you'll be good as gold. Get a collar that has tone or buzzer. Most of the time that is all you'll need. It beats yelling commands. I'm no trainer but it works for all my dogs, and their soft. Brittany's you know.
Re: How old for e-collar?
There is a lot of info posted before this reply...so much that I'm probably reiterating but what the heck. I'm not in the mood for reading much right now. What works for me is to make sure that the dog knows the basic commands (both in the home and afield) like the back of her/his paw. I then intro avoidence training w/ the e-collar. From there it's been smooth sailing for me and my partner. My PP picks up whatever I want her to in a heart beat. I know I had to check myself every once in awhile to avoid using it as the initial training tool. I never want to get into the fram of mind. Patience and time should produce the results you seek.
Re: How old for e-collar?
[quote="Stoneface"]House dogs and dogs that are able to build a closer relationship are ten times easier to train than kennel dogs. [quote]
What evidence do you have of this Rowdy. Trainability is born into a dog. Its not nurtured by bringing them in the house and it's not hindered by keeping them in a kennel. One of the nicer dogs we've fooled with over the last couple of years we brought in the house all the time because she liked it. We had a good relationship with her and she with us. She was a nightmare to break. She was so bird crazy that she just couldn't stand holding birds until Andy got to her and got off his horse. She loved to see them fly and at ANY cost. That fact that she would lay on the couch with us for hours didn't fix this in the least bit.
What evidence do you have of this Rowdy. Trainability is born into a dog. Its not nurtured by bringing them in the house and it's not hindered by keeping them in a kennel. One of the nicer dogs we've fooled with over the last couple of years we brought in the house all the time because she liked it. We had a good relationship with her and she with us. She was a nightmare to break. She was so bird crazy that she just couldn't stand holding birds until Andy got to her and got off his horse. She loved to see them fly and at ANY cost. That fact that she would lay on the couch with us for hours didn't fix this in the least bit.
Re: How old for e-collar?
I think a lot of folks use a collar as a crutch because they didn't do sufficient yard work with the dog when it needed to be done.