EP vs. GSP why the difference in $?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:09 pm

Changed my mind. Going to let this one run awhile as long as folks stay polite.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:06 pm

gpblitz wrote:
bigsugar wrote:Should A GSP run like a Pointer ? Should a Britt run like a pointer Should a setter run like a pointer ? They are all seperate breeds?
This was posted on another board and I think it's one of the smartest things anyone's every said about birddogs.

My position has always been that there should be a breed known as "good dog"; by that, I mean the best dogs of any breed are more like one another than they are poor examples of their own breeds: A good Brittany is more like a good pointer or setter than it is like a poor Brittany.

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:10 am

simple answer for simple question. obviously the pricing says shorthairs are more valuable and desirable

supply and demand.

gold compared to Aluminum

apples compared to oranges.

doco · Post by **doco** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:50 am

Yeah, now way those brown dogs can keep up with the longtails. We only get lucky once in a while. In fact, I got lucky with Heidi last spring. She placed third in a 23 dog ASD stake at the Lost Pond Club in NY behind Terhaars Elvis and Richfields Silver Belle. We were braced with Thomas Adirondak Ringo another High Caliber dog. It was the first time in 47 years of running that stake that anything other than a Setta/Pointa was placed. Abbey was't too far behind and the judge was quite elated when she went with a bird. Exact words "Nice Dog, I was about to make a very unpopular decision and I was about to get un-invited back here next year" They probably would have ran the judges out of the State if something like that happened.

Anyway to the breeding end of it, I've only had one litter and I went with the advice of some of the best shorthair guys on the east coast for guidance. I bred for 2 puppies for myself and kept three. I charged a high price and got it with a waiting list. I had $2000 in the breeding between Semen, travel, and the insemination. I was not going to give away those caliber of puppies.

You get what you pay for. As an amateur trialer, I would not by a puppy from a pedigree that does not have proven females. PIA with them coming into season come trial time...Yes! But I would rather "Compete" with dogs that are from proven parents. I got lucky! I went looking for a dog out of Ammertal's lines for a hunting dog and only the grandsires were titled, not the parents. I ended up with 2 high powered dogs from that litter.

In terms of getting what you pay for.......please dog't take this as bragging or puffing up the chest, but four trials with my pups and 12 events, and we've come home with 11 pieces of silk. Even beat a high powered Pointa in their first stake leaving him 4th. Again, not bragging just extremely grateful to my buddies that have helped me along the way. So, why pay more......because we play this game to place our dogs, not to waste time.

Doc

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:18 am

Tru it is true that shorthairs will roll I have no problem admitting that. I also have seen some shorthairs that I wouldn't mind having (if they didn't bark so much).

On the other hand I have been to Eureka and watched the shorthairs run there and that is NOT the same caliber dog as a shooting dog or all age pointer. Sorry. Not trying to start an arguement just stating the "facts" as you call them.

They were nice dogs. They would get blown out of the water at the Ozark Shooting Dog Championship or the SW MO Shooting Dog Championship.

I hear this from the continental breed folks all the time. The only way to really tell is to go to the big time championships and run em. There is a reason they don't run them.

I think if the high caliber trial quality shorthair was as readily available as you make them out to be the price would reflect wouldn't you think.

Tru I know you will never admit to the fact that you guys run "American Shorthairs" and it's ok. Go to Germany and buy a shorthair. They don't look like your dogs.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:37 am

trueblu wrote:There are and have always been some 90 lb shorthairs being shown, NOT field dogs. There are now and have always been big running shorthairs. My family has had GSPs for over 50 years, granted trial lined, but they could roll back in 1960 and go with pointers of their era. I hate to break it to those who believe the English Pointer is every breed's standard, it flat isn't true. Attend a few Pointer shooting dog trials, they are AKC GSP gun dogs. All Age dogs ranging 300 yards running in and out of woods, ain't All Age dogs, sorry. Where there have been breeders in all breeds that have felt the need to breed to outside breeds, the GSP trial contingent is the one that passed legislation within the GSPCA to require DNA numbers before any other breed. I'm sure some will give exceptions, as most believe the exceptions are the rule. However, attend a GSPCA or NGSPA nationals and see the dogs, how they run, their conformation, etc. Yes, a very few are bug eyed, bow legged, short eared, round eyed dimwits. But, most fit the standard. And, no they aren't 90 pounds. 90 pounds is outside the standard!! hate to bring facts to the discussion, but sometimes facts are necessary where opinion is being considered factual.

There are a lot of "facts" in here. Youre right they aren't every breeds standards and shouldn't be. The problem is, 90% of the judges judge them so. I have attended a few pointer shooting dog trials, and "sorry to break it to you", they aint no AKC GSP gun dogs. Another thing that a lot of people that don't understand the difference is, the pace of the horses. NIGHT and DAY difference. Not even close. But thank you for the facts you bring to the table.

As far as price, another theory I have to the GSP vs EP deal is, emotional connection. The GSP folks find it way harder to send a dog down the road than pointers. Therefore pointer people won't put more $$ into a dog they know has a less chance of staying. This has nothing to do with quality. That same dog that wouldn't make a pointer string and hits the road, if it was a GSP has a WAY better chance of being fed by original owner. They pay more because they see more long term. There are always pointer derbies for sale. How often do you see GSP derbies for sale? Not to often. Because you fall in love. My grandfather was in the racehorse biz an always told me, you can't fall in love with em. It's true. When you do, your heart makes decision you shouldn't make.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:55 am

From my limited experience with GSP's I have to second what trublu wrote. The bulk of my expereince with the bigger running dogs has been with NGSPA dogs.

Not very much difference between the better shorthair gundogs andgood pointer or setter shooting dogsn from what I have seen. I have seen a few all age shorthairs and a few all age pointers and, on the grounds where I saw them run...again not much of a difference in terms of application. The grounds where the best comparisons can be made don't really exist near me. The best we got for that is Wye Island, MD which is mostly edge type cover.

The one difference I kept noticing was that when a dog wanted to get from point A to point B and there was a piece of heavy cover in between, the pointer or setter would sometimes whip around it or skin the edges while the shorthair would almost always blast straight through... without hesitation.

RayG

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:43 pm

bigsugar wrote:Tru it is true that shorthairs will roll I have no problem admitting that. I also have seen some shorthairs that I wouldn't mind having (if they didn't bark so much).

On the other hand I have been to Eureka and watched the shorthairs run there and that is NOT the same caliber dog as a shooting dog or all age pointer. Sorry. Not trying to start an arguement just stating the "facts" as you call them.

They were nice dogs. They would get blown out of the water at the Ozark Shooting Dog Championship or the SW MO Shooting Dog Championship.

I hear this from the continental breed folks all the time. The only way to really tell is to go to the big time championships and run em. There is a reason they don't run them.

I think if the high caliber trial quality shorthair was as readily available as you make them out to be the price would reflect wouldn't you think.

Tru I know you will never admit to the fact that you guys run "American Shorthairs" and it's ok. Go to Germany and buy a shorthair. They don't look like your dogs.

again apples and oranges. go to boonsville an af event to make your comparison. you are comparing the akc event to af pointer af events. that's like comparing an all age dog to a walking trial dog akc has different rules with different expectations. eg how long a dog can be out of sight

if you go to boonville this spring and come away with the same opinion then u can compare.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:59 pm

jasonw99 wrote:
bigsugar wrote:Tru it is true that shorthairs will roll I have no problem admitting that. I also have seen some shorthairs that I wouldn't mind having (if they didn't bark so much).

On the other hand I have been to Eureka and watched the shorthairs run there and that is NOT the same caliber dog as a shooting dog or all age pointer. Sorry. Not trying to start an arguement just stating the "facts" as you call them.

They were nice dogs. They would get blown out of the water at the Ozark Shooting Dog Championship or the SW MO Shooting Dog Championship.

I hear this from the continental breed folks all the time. The only way to really tell is to go to the big time championships and run em. There is a reason they don't run them.

I think if the high caliber trial quality shorthair was as readily available as you make them out to be the price would reflect wouldn't you think.

I've been to plenty of AF GSP trials. Even judged the derby portion of that Championship. Its not the same guys! It is so funny. All the GSP guys want/say their dogs are so different yet they compare them all the time. Its not right or wrong. It is just a different game.

Tru I know you will never admit to the fact that you guys run "American Shorthairs" and it's ok. Go to Germany and buy a shorthair. They don't look like your dogs.

again apples and oranges. go to boonsville an af event to make your comparison. you are comparing the akc event to af pointer af events. that's like comparing an all age dog to a walking trial dog akc has different rules with different expectations. eg how long a dog can be out of sight

if you go to boonville this spring and come away with the same opinion then u can compare.

Ive been to plenty AF GSP Championships. Even judged the derby portion of one. It is not the same thing!!! Its not right or wrong, but just not the same. I think it is so interesting. GSP people want/say their dogs are different to pointers, then do nothing but compare them to pointers. I dont get it. They are different animals. Its quarter horses to thouroughbreds. Both horses, different critters.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:36 pm

The same dogs that run at Booneville are the ones running AKC Championships.

If you really want to compare then open the Championship in Booneville to all breeds. Until then I don't want to hear that they are the same dogs. If they are the same then why don't shorthairs win the Sunflower, The Texas Open, The Quality Futurity, The Midwestern States Shooting Dog Futurity, The Quail Classic, The Southwestern Championship, The Stillwater Open All Age Championship and so on and so on. The reason they don't run there let alone win there is because they CAN'T. End of story.

I'll tell you this real quick. Rhonda and I run shooting dogs and have had some success running them in local horseback trials here. Even our shooting dogs are miles away from dogs like Ninnescah Nicole, Merrihill's Carolina, Elhew Hannabell, Nella Running Tab, and so on and so on. There is a reason that my dogs aren't running the same championships as the dogs listed above. They CAN'T COMPETE. I've seen these dogs on the ground at various venues and they are miles above my shooting dogs. The AKC dogs I have seen first hand would have a hard time dealing with my dogs let alone the great SHOOTING DOGS like the ones above. Those shooting dogs above would have a major uphill battle dealing with dogs like Prairieland Pride, Lester's Snowatch, In The Shadow, Sir Lancelot, Distant Shadow, Elhew Sinbad, any of Sean Derrig's string or any of Luke's string. Don't get me wrong the shorthairs of today are nice but they would get dusted off by the big boys listed above. If you think otherwise you're living in fairytale land.

I used to run AKC britts from the best lines of dogs in the country. My dogs ran a bunch and pointed birds. I was barely competitive in AFTCA walking shooting dog stakes with them. Not because the judges were biased. Because I got my "bleep" handed to me by better, bigger running more powerfull dogs. Period end of story. The pointer guys don't have to come to a shorthair venue to see anything. You're chasing us. It's not the other way around. Sorry. Just stating the "facts".

This isn't a this dog is better then that dog deal. The dogs are different and designed for different things.
I like all dogs. As long as he a goodun.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:02 pm

I've owned Shorthairs for just under 15 years and have had five personal dogs(I'm guilty of not being easy to send my dogs down the line). On top of that I've put my hands on a number more in training or just being around. I've had three Setters and am on my first Pointer. I've been around Pointers only for the past year.

In my opinion Pointers are just freaks of nature. I mean, the dogs are just insane. There had to have been some kind of genetic mutation in a puppy a ways back that just gave that dog the ability to reach higher gears than the rest. And, that dog had to be the fountainhead of today's Pointer.

Shorthairs are great, wonderful dogs. I've loved each one of my Shorthairs very much and my first one is still the standard to which I measure all my dogs. Not just in the field, but as a buddy, etc. He was a big running Shorthair - biggest-running dog I've ver owned so far. But, he would still get his butt handed to him by Pointers. All my Shorthairs and any Shorthair I've seen ran with Pointers could not go as long, as far, as fast as the Pointer. It's like Shorthairs have a 350 cid engine, and that's great, but Pointer has a 454.

There's nothing wrong, though, with a dog that can't go as long, as far and as fast as Pointer. If you want that, maybe you should own Pointers. Moxy's a natural retriever, but is still spades away from being anywhere near my Shorthairs when it comes to hunting dead or retrieving. Shorthairs, in my opinion, are easier to have as pets, too. I've seen a few Pointers in the house and they're just like Moxy. Moxy's a great dog and wonderful to have in the house, but if she's not sleeping then she's on the warpath for something. If I turn her out in the front yard I have to watch her and make sure she's not long gone whereas I could open my front door and let my Shorthair go out on his own and he'd just sun bathe in the front yard.

Nothing wrong with with a choice, if that's what you want. Some folks like Fords, some like Chevys. Some folks like Shorthairs, some like Pointers. Neither is better overall, both are better in one way or another and each is distinct enough to have a substantial following.

Like BS said, it's whether you want a quarter horse or a thoroughbred, a trail horse or a race horse, a off-roader or a dragster. Whichever suits your fancy.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:33 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:I have recently been looking at some ads online for FT pups just to kill time mostly and it seems like you can buy a really nicely bred FT EP for sufficiently less than what you can buy a compareable GSP for... Why? You often hear people say that you can pick up well bred EPs for short money compared to some of the other breeds. Im not looking to start a Whizzin' match here and am not trying to stir the pot. I am simply curious.....

Jim

I don't much follow field trial litters, so since it hasn't been said, what's the price difference between a FT EP and a FT GSP puppy? And don't give the extremes please. There's always somebody giving them away and somebody robbing.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:37 pm

A futurity nominated pointer pup 5-600.

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:33 pm

you don't see shorthairs in your pointer events because people feel they don't need to prove anything to the pointer people. and why would I run a dog in a pointer trial instead of running a shorthair trial?? doesn't make sense.

it's funny in one breath people say shorthairs are pointers with their tails docked and in the next breath they are inferior to pointers.

if I took an all age pointer cut his tail off called him a shorthair would you be in awe when you watched him run or would you say pointers are better?

maybe I am wrong but I think if I entered a shorthair in a pointer trial the odds of me winning regardless of how the dog ran would not be in my favor.

If memory serves me correctly steger won some pointer championships with shorthairs. granted they was a while ago.

but back to the topic of the post. it's supply and demand and what the market will pay. anything more than 700 or 800 for a shorthair seems steep. there are exceptions to the rule

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:46 pm

We don't run "pointer" trials. We run all breed trials. Other then that good post.

I might add too that you do have something to prove if you are out there pounding your chest saying that all age shorthairs can compete with all age pointers and that akc gundog shorthairs are the equivilent to horseback shooting dogs.

If I come on here and make a statement about my dogs being good enough to run at ames and beat the big boys then I better have something to go on to back that up. I better be able to qualify them and show up. Same can be said for the folks who claim things that can be proven or disproven for that matter.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:01 pm

I have read many times that the winning dogs in multibreed trials is in the same proportion as the numbered entered. The big boy trials where 10 pointers are entered to One Gsp will have pointers winning 10 times to every one time the GSP wins. It is interesting how the quality of the breeds change depending on the circumstanes being discussed. I would be willing to bet that the price of the puppies is determined very much by the demand for the pups in the local area they are born in or in the group you are marketing them in.

Ezzy

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:28 pm

wems2371 wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:I have recently been looking at some ads online for FT pups just to kill time mostly and it seems like you can buy a really nicely bred FT EP for sufficiently less than what you can buy a compareable GSP for... Why? You often hear people say that you can pick up well bred EPs for short money compared to some of the other breeds. Im not looking to start a Whizzin' match here and am not trying to stir the pot. I am simply curious.....

Jim

I don't much follow field trial litters, so since it hasn't been said, what's the price difference between a FT EP and a FT GSP puppy? And don't give the extremes please. There's always somebody giving them away and somebody robbing.

From the little looking ive done It seemel like $500-600 for an EP and $500-1000 for a GSP. I will say I have not looked a ton so these figures may not be accurate across the board just what i have seen

Jim

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:26 pm

elhew, what NGSPA events have you ridden ALL braces and what championships have you ridden ALL braces? Did you ride some tiny Region back east or did you ride all braces at the Quail, Region 7, Region 8, The Hun, The Chukar, NGSPA Nationals, etc.?? You say you judged an NGSPA derby classic, so most likely you looked at 8-10 young dogs? In what part of the country?

I can only go on my own limited experience...ridden for around 10 days in Kansas at hour all age pointer championships, ridden another 10 plus days at pointer shooting dog championships in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, judged several pointer all age derby stakes, ridden somewhere around a zillion braces of AKC and AF shorthair, brittany, viszla, weim, weekend trials and championships, judged around 70 AKC stakes, ridden most all GSP nationals for the past 14 years. I have seen enough to have formed an educated opinion in THIS part of the US. The All Age prairie pointer has NO equal, no argument no debate, period, end of story. The average weekend gun dog in most breeds is barely a usable west Texas wild quail dog, but most have never seen a wild bird. The top 20% of the weekend GSP gun dogs are every bit as good, if not better, than the average shooting dog pointer. The very best all age GSP is still nowhere near the best AA prairie pointer.

elhew, this is not to compare resumes, we may just have to agree to disagree. But, I would at least like to confirm that you have at least the same level of experience on similar type dogs or the argument may be a "non apples to apples" comparison.

I have known Ray for a lot of years, and for now, I tend to listen to him as I know he has experience in what he speaks.

Finally, we can have the same argument as to the whys and why nots of shorthairs at pointer championships But, with two national championships, many many region and species championships, AKC Pointing Dog, German Pointing Dog, a million weekend trials, the need to finish field champions for qualifying and purely for clients. Do you really think a pro is going to pull his string and go run pointer trials? Yes, it's all about pure fear.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:18 am

Bigsugar, after spending the last two years in KY and the only horseback trails are AF that is what we did. We ran against Pointers, ES and depending if it was Central or Western KY we saw a few Red Setters. I had the only GPSs. I was never blown away by any of the Pointers or Setters to the point where I would say GSPs could not compete with them on a level playing field. The first dog I ran in KY was a derby dog that smoked her bracemate, had two nice finds and great style(her bracemate won) and all I got when I asked the judges about the winner and my dog was "she'd be a nice dog if her tail was longer" I knew this was going to be fun. I did see some nice Pointers and the advantage was in handling more than the dogs race or style. I have only see one AA Pointer run in big country (a White Miller dog) and he rolled around nice but did not knock my socks off.
So getting back to the difference in the two breeds I don't think there is a great difference in performance and in terms of cost you have GSP people who pour tons of money into health testing and this drives the cost up because people are looking for a ROI. The part of the country you are in also makes a difference like horses in KY I could buy good TWHs all day for what would be give away prices in other parts of the country, my daughter paid $75 for a nice filly. Show Pointers are very high priced much more than a GSP. My wife bought a Show Pointer about 8 years ago and it was the most expensive dog we have ever bought. Since FDSB pointer don't have to deal with any of that crap I think that also keeps their prices lower. If you look at what Lester charges for a stud fee on his AA studs it is less than an National winning GSP stud.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:54 am

I personally think the gsp has a huge hype that appeals to the weekend hunter that's looking to have a family dog that "points ". I think alot of people see the gsp as more of a family dog and the ep as more of a hyper hunting 1 dementional dog! This allows breeders to ask more for there pups. Supply and demand! I'll stick with my pointers!

I hunt the east and the upper midwest....I practically never see a Pointer....I'm talking over the past 16 years since I've been going to ND. In all that time, I have sen ONE hunter on horseback and that was a guy with setters. I have seen a lot of "week end" hunters who come out and beat the heck out of their dogs for two weeks (the length of the ND license) to get the most out of their trip...like me, ducks in the morning and birds after 10am. The predominate breed is the Lab followd by the GSP...and then the rest of the various Vdog breeds...a few setters. I agree that the vast majority of folks want a dog that is dual purpose...hunting and family dog...but I don't see the expectations as being any less, if that was your inference.

Ultimately folks pay for what they want and consider to have value. Much of the lower price for Pointers is based on a perception that these dogs are big running specialists which may not be the perceived need that the buyer may have. It is reinforced by tales of dogs being found on point 1 mile away or pictures of the GPS pinned at 800 yds...and such, which advocates for the breed take great pride in. The Pointer has a perception problem beyond the abundant supply....JMHO. I KNOW that I can take any well bred Pointer and make it into a nice foot hunting dog...no one needs to convince me of that...but I honestly don't see that side of the breed being presented...hunters on foot with longtails working 75-200 yds ahead. Setters seem to enjoy that perception.

The other possibility is that FT is the predominate format for Pointers....how many pups have to be bred to produce a truly big time dog. Isn't that really the goal? Could it be that the numbers that need to be bred and started necessitate the oversupply of pups?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:34 pm

JKP wrote:Ultimately folks pay for what they want and consider to have value. Much of the lower price for Pointers is based on a perception that these dogs are big running specialists which may not be the perceived need that the buyer may have. It is reinforced by tales of dogs being found on point 1 mile away or pictures of the GPS pinned at 800 yds...and such, which advocates for the breed take great pride in. The Pointer has a perception problem beyond the abundant supply....JMHO. I KNOW that I can take any well bred Pointer and make it into a nice foot hunting dog...no one needs to convince me of that...but I honestly don't see that side of the breed being presented...hunters on foot with longtails working 75-200 yds ahead. Setters seem to enjoy that perception.

The other possibility is that FT is the predominate format for Pointers....how many pups have to be bred to produce a truly big time dog. Isn't that really the goal? Could it be that the numbers that need to be bred and started necessitate the oversupply of pups?

Man, truer words were never spoken! Until I bought Moxy I had never so much as laid hands on a Pointer. Shorthairs, Vizslas, Setters, Britts... but not a single Pointer. I'd heard that any given Pointer is a hard-headed kennel dog that doesn't give a doggone about people or companionship and aren't good for anything besides eating up ground and licking the horizon. It's back to that quarter horse vs. thoroughbred analogy. People see Pointers as wild, with their mind always on pumping out another mile. They see them as unbridleable, race-bred thoroughbred. Why would a pleasure riding ever want a wild, race-bred thoroughbred? That image, in my opinion, is why Pointers get a bad rap. On top of that I think the majority of Pointer folks lock the dog up in a kennel and the dog only ever knows kennel, dog box, chain gange. So, they turn into unstable dogs and when someone does happen across them they look like, go figure, unstable, whacked-out dogs.

Pointers just aren't typically given the chance to become great companions, usually.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:21 pm

Stoneface wrote:On top of that I think the majority of Pointer folks lock the dog up in a kennel and the dog only ever knows kennel, dog box, chain gange. So, they turn into unstable dogs and when someone does happen across them they look like, go figure, unstable, whacked-out dogs.

Pointers just aren't typically given the chance to become great companions, usually.

What is this nonsense based on Rowdy? Your vast experience with field trial guys that run pointers? Sorry man I like you a bunch this is just garbage. Come on Rowdy.

The all age pointer has to be the most cooperative dog in the world Rowdy. If he isn't then how do you expect him to be handled at all. I have been around many a major circuit guy and seen many of them roll into the trial grounds with an all age champion or a dog from their string riding in the front seat of the truck Rowdy. Those guys probably try harder to build rapport with a dog then anyone else because those big running dogs absolutely need that to be successful.

AN

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:30 pm

bigsugar wrote:
Stoneface wrote:On top of that I think the majority of Pointer folks lock the dog up in a kennel and the dog only ever knows kennel, dog box, chain gange. So, they turn into unstable dogs and when someone does happen across them they look like, go figure, unstable, whacked-out dogs.

Pointers just aren't typically given the chance to become great companions, usually.

What is this nonsense based on Rowdy? Your vast experience with field trial guys that run pointers? Sorry man I like you a bunch this is just garbage. Come on Rowdy.

The all age pointer has to be the most cooperative dog in the world Rowdy. If he isn't then how do you expect him to be handled at all. I have been around many a major circuit guy and seen many of them roll into the trial grounds with an all age champion or a dog from their string riding in the front seat of the truck Rowdy. Those guys probably try harder to build rapport with a dog then anyone else because those big running dogs absolutely need that to be successful.

AN

Makes sense to me.

Charlie

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:50 pm

Ya! What bigsurgar said..

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Stoneface only said how pointers are percieved and he is right. And the reason is that is the way the pointer people talk about the dogs. Just read this thread and all you see is how big they run, how fast they are, how all of the other breeds are just chop liver compared to them. If you want the perception of the pointer to more closely resemble what they really are then start talkong about them correct;y. They are nice dogs and great pets that hunt. Dogs that have a lot of natural ability that are easily trained. Dogs that work well at a closer range with weekend foot hunter. They are dogs that can compete with the GSP in the field as well as in the house.

If people had been hearing an accurate description of them they would with out a doubt be more popular.

Ezzy

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:54 pm

Ezzy no one ever got on here and said they keep them kenneled their entire lives with no contact thus turning them into wierdos. No one ever got on here and said they aren't good companion dogs and they are aloof idiots. No one ever got on here and said that pointers weren't just as loyal as the next dog and make great inside dogs just like anyone else. Rowdy made that nonsense up on his own and it isn't based on fact at all. It's based on nonsense. He has no experience to go on when making a silly assessment like that. I've been to trials with Rowdy and he's a good kid. His above opinion is in no way based on fact and is garbage. Sorry.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:56 pm

Stoneface wrote:
JKP wrote:Ultimately folks pay for what they want and consider to have value. Much of the lower price for Pointers is based on a perception that these dogs are big running specialists which may not be the perceived need that the buyer may have. It is reinforced by tales of dogs being found on point 1 mile away or pictures of the GPS pinned at 800 yds...and such, which advocates for the breed take great pride in. The Pointer has a perception problem beyond the abundant supply....JMHO. I KNOW that I can take any well bred Pointer and make it into a nice foot hunting dog...no one needs to convince me of that...but I honestly don't see that side of the breed being presented...hunters on foot with longtails working 75-200 yds ahead. Setters seem to enjoy that perception.

The other possibility is that FT is the predominate format for Pointers....how many pups have to be bred to produce a truly big time dog. Isn't that really the goal? Could it be that the numbers that need to be bred and started necessitate the oversupply of pups?
Man, truer words were never spoken! Until I bought Moxy I had never so much as laid hands on a Pointer. Shorthairs, Vizslas, Setters, Britts... but not a single Pointer. I'd heard that any given Pointer is a hard-headed kennel dog that doesn't give a doggone about people or companionship and aren't good for anything besides eating up ground and licking the horizon. It's back to that quarter horse vs. thoroughbred analogy. People see Pointers as wild, with their mind always on pumping out another mile. They see them as unbridleable, race-bred thoroughbred. Why would a pleasure riding ever want a wild, race-bred thoroughbred? That image, in my opinion, is why Pointers get a bad rap. On top of that I think the majority of Pointer folks lock the dog up in a kennel and the dog only ever knows kennel, dog box, chain gange. So, they turn into unstable dogs and when someone does happen across them they look like, go figure, unstable, whacked-out dogs.

Pointers just aren't typically given the chance to become great companions, usually.

Never a good idea to make broad generalizations. Pic shows one of my besr trial dogs.She has certainly been allowed to be all she can be and prefers the couch.

[IMG]http://i55.photobucket

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:36 pm

bigsugar wrote:Ezzy no one ever got on here and said they keep them kenneled their entire lives with no contact thus turning them into wierdos. No one ever got on here and said they aren't good companion dogs and they are aloof idiots. No one ever got on here and said that pointers weren't just as loyal as the next dog and make great inside dogs just like anyone else. Rowdy made that nonsense up on his own and it isn't based on fact at all. It's based on nonsense. He has no experience to go on when making a silly assessment like that. I've been to trials with Rowdy and he's a good kid. His above opinion is in no way based on fact and is garbage. Sorry.

I didn't say it was on here but what he wrote is what people believe. I said it was wrong but if you want people to think differently you are going to have to start selling the pointer for what it really is rather than try to convince people they are a hunting machine. They have so much more to offer.

Ezzy

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:46 pm

EP vs. GSP why the difference in $?

The GSP people are better marketers

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:02 pm

Sugar, you're absolutely, positively wrong. Read what Ezzy wrote about my post then go back and re-read what I wrote. Like I SAID in my last post, until I bought Moxy I had never so much as laid hands on a Pointer. But, I HEARD plenty about Pointers. That's my point. It's that image. When you think of a thoroughbred you think of a horse rounding the turn at Churchill Downs. When you think of a quarterhorse you think of a cutting horse, a pleasure horse, a trail horse or even Ol' Faithful, your aunt's horse that's out in her pasture. Shorthairs are much more associated with being pets/hunters, house dogs/hunters and family dogs/hunters than are Pointers. Pointers are typically thought of as the dog that goes from kennel to dog box to chain gang and is only cut loose to run. Heck, just yesterday I was talking to a guy who runs Pointers and said you want your dog to be out of control or you'll never win anything. A guy a the Fairview trial saw how much control I had on my dogs and basically said the same thing. I've heard that a lot. The weekend after the Fairview trial I ran Moxy in a puppy stake in Arkansas and of the four puppies, two had to be ran down on a four wheeler and one came back on his own after a couple hours.

I don't know much about you and for all I know you could have 50 years of experience in training all breeds in all venues, but it's not showing throug in some of your posts. I met you at a trial and you're a good kid. Your above statements are made against facts and are garbage. Sorry.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:04 pm

This is all I'm saying.

ezzy333 wrote:I didn't say it was on here but what he wrote is what people believe. I said it was wrong but if you want people to think differently you are going to have to start selling the pointer for what it really is rather than try to convince people they are a hunting machine. They have so much more to offer.

Sharon, I'm in the same boat as you. My dogs share my bed, coach and car with me. Heck, the only thing we don't share is dinner! I think our dogs are in the vast minority, though.

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:11 pm

I'm a newb to the sport but wanted to add my perspective. I rencently acquired my first pointing dog about 6 months ago. When I initially began looking for a dog I was totally clueless and open to any breed. When I got serious about looking I thought I would like a Vizsla, Setter or Brittany (primarily based on appearance..ha, yes I was that clueless). After a lot of reading, searching and speaking to breeders, hunters, etc., they helped me ask the right questions about what breed fits what I need. One of the piece of advice that stuck with me came from a hunter/trialer living down the street from where I grew up. He said that there are phenomial dogs in every breed...every breed is capable of producing those special, once in a lifetime brag dogs, but in his opinion, I would have the highest probablity of sucess if I went with a well-bred EP.

I was shocked to find out that I could get a great pup for ~$500 it just seemed too cheap to me!

I've owned and trained several retrievers and still have a nice female Boykin. Boykins are wonderful dogs, maybe one of the best in the dove field (I think a clipped boykin handles the 100 degree September heat better than a big lab), but the labs are going to beat a boykin 9/10 when it comes to overall retrieving -- Maybe it's the same way with GSP's v. Pointers? I really don't know. Boykins in my neck of the desert are tough to come by and fetch a premium (over $1,000 for a pup), while a lab great lab would cost less than 500 bones.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Heck, the only thing we don't share is dinner!

Had a pro once tell me a FT dog isnt a FT dog until it can eat off a fork.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:25 am

Brad, I have no idea what that means.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:56 am

Its funny how much knowledge of big running pointers you have all the sudden. Go watch an all age championship and come back and report what you saw. You'll be surprised.

You have a lot to learn rowdy.

AN

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:21 am

I just figure I am bad at marketing dogs, I can't hardly sell either.

I bred a litter over a year ago, 2 of those pups are running the national derby circuit, and it would have been 3 (one died). They were all sold for less than $500, and I am trying to give away their brothers on the started dog page. It doesn't make any sense

I always breed my Pointer females to classy bird finding champions. I usually sell those pups for around $500. I usually do AI, and so when it is all said and done I should have just saved my money, but I love those pups

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:35 am

Stoneface wrote:Brad, I have no idea what that means.

nd you never will until you have a field trial dog....

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:36 am

Alright, I'll reiterate it one more time then bow out of the discussion... I have ZERO experience with AA-type dogs. That's my point. You're misreading my posts and making it look like I'm making statements about Pointer. I'm not. I'm making statements about conceptions of Pointers.

I have zero.... zero.... zero experience with AA Pointers and not too much experience with Pointers, period. I have, though, heard people talk and talk and talk about how Pointers are nothing but runoffs - hard-headed, no-minded, stubborn, callous, cold, frigid runnoffs. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION. This is, for a fact, how Pointers are viewed by non-Pointer people.

Just to recap how I have NOT tried to demonstrated "how much knowledge of big running pointers I have all the sudden...." let me put it back into context. If you could tell me where I said I have so "much knowledge of big running pointers" that'd be great.

Until I bought Moxy I had never so much as laid hands on a Pointer.

I'd heard that any given Pointer is a hard-headed kennel dog that doesn't give a doggone about people or companionship and aren't good for anything besides eating up ground and licking the horizon.

Like I SAID in my last post, until I bought Moxy I had never so much as laid hands on a Pointer. But, I HEARD plenty about Pointers. That's my point. It's that image.

Shorthairs are much more associated with being pets/hunters, house dogs/hunters and family dogs/hunters than are Pointers. Pointers are typically thought of as the dog that goes from kennel to dog box to chain gang and is only cut loose to run.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:41 am

One more thing. This is on the website of a professional trainer that lives here in Missouri. He's a Shorthair guy and says what spades of conteninetal folks believe. This man and I have very, very different opinions about breeds and genetics it's not even funny, but he is a very, very nice guy.

Over many generations the English Pointer has been a working dog only. Not a companion dog. In other words there are not many English Pointers that are pets. They have been kennel dogs for many generations. In this process a genetic trait has been developed in the English Pointer. The trait being that in general an English Pointer (or just Pointer) does not care whether you pet them or not. They don't have an inherent genetic tendency to want to please. Overall and typically you train an English Pointer by punishing them for doing the wrong thing to teach them to do the right thing. They do not do what they do because they want to please you. They tend to be self employed....

I say all this to say that the main genetic difference in the German Shorthair Pointer is the desire to please. The Shorthair was selectively bred for certain characteristics, one being companion and/or guard dog qualities.

In my opinion what makes the German Shorthair Pointer a better or best selection of the pointing dog breeds is mainly this train ability and desire to please that is inherent in them. They want to be liked and they want to please.....

One time we were Quail hunting some wide open prairie over in Kansas and here comes this Pointer. She was wearing a shock collar and where she was headed who could say. She was definitely headed somewhere and it wasn't to check back in. The shock collar needed to be a tracking collar if anyone was ever going to see her again. GENETICS....

My friend had this story.....

He was just fixing to start into a large uncut milo field hunting Pheasant out in Kansas, when along came a truck of hunters. They offered to join in to hunt this big milo field with Skip and Jeff. He said sure, why not. He said they let out four English Pointers with all kinds of gadgets around their necks. When they started out across the field Skip said it went like this..... BEEP, BEEP, TWEET, TWEET, YIPE, YIPE, and "SPOT GET BACK IN HERE". He said he must have heard "Spot get back in here" twenty-five times. When they got to the other end of the field the dogs had ran all the birds out without a shot. He said the fellows were all excited and wanted to know where they were going next. He said he thought he was headed to town for lunch,( 10:00 AM ). He said he just couldn't resist....he looked at the one fellow and said..."what did you say your dogs name was?" GENETICS....

To end up this short course on Genetics and inherent traits....I must finish with this note. Mr. Robert Wehle, of English Pointer breeding fame, also recognized the need to genetically improve the mind set of the English Pointer ( or just Pointer) and utilizing the German Shorthair Pointer in his breeding efforts certainly made great strides in turning the tide for the whole of the Pointer breed....or so it has been rumored. Wehle spelled backward being Elhew of course

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:50 am

Stoneface wrote:Alright, I'll reiterate it one more time then bow out of the discussion... I have ZERO experience with AA-type dogs. That's my point. You're misreading my posts and making it look like I'm making statements about Pointer. I'm not. I'm making statements about conceptions of Pointers.

I have zero.... zero.... zero experience with AA Pointers and not too much experience with Pointers, period. I have, though, heard people talk and talk and talk about how Pointers are nothing but runoffs - hard-headed, no-minded, stubborn, callous, cold, frigid runnoffs. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION. This is, for a fact, how Pointers are viewed by non-Pointer people.

Here's where I think the rubber meets the road, as to why some are upset.

Rowdy, you outright state you have no knowledge of AA Pointers, yet you repeat as fact what other "non-Pointer" think. Do the other "non-Pointer" people have any first hand knowledge of the AA pointer? Most likely not, yet you give their opinion some weight....and then you repeat that opinion.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:54 am

This has turned into a GSP vs Pointer pissing match. If you don't have anything to add to the ORIGINAL topic, don't post.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:01 am

...yeah, I gotta go with Wyndancer on this. I am a non-pointer guy and I don't have the perception as described.
...oops and it is simply supply and demand. (this was edited so that Greg doesn't give me 40 lashes)

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:08 am

Did I freaking mumble?

No more off topic posts.

EDIT: Wink added to clarify intended humor. But seriously. Keep it on topic.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:37 am

Petroplex Hunter wrote: I've owned and trained several retrievers and still have a nice female Boykin. Boykins are wonderful dogs, maybe one of the best in the dove field (I think a clipped boykin handles the 100 degree September heat better than a big lab), but the labs are going to beat a boykin 9/10 when it comes to overall retrieving -- Maybe it's the same way with GSP's v. Pointers? I really don't know. Boykins in my neck of the desert are tough to come by and fetch a premium (over $1,000 for a pup), while a lab great lab would cost less than 500 bones.

I will say first that it is common here to find good hunting labs here that are going to be fine for 80% of hunters with NO health clearance for $300. When you say a GREAT lab for less than $500 please send me the pedigrees for the pups because I been looking for one, if the female is a FC the pups are generally priced $3000 and up with a few as low as $2000.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:29 pm

It was obviously a joke...

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:21 pm

Rowdy, you outright state you have no knowledge of AA Pointers, yet you repeat as fact what other "non-Pointer" think. Do the other "non-Pointer" people have any first hand knowledge of the AA pointer? Most likely not, yet you give their opinion some weight....and then you repeat that opinion.

I think you are missing the point....perceptions exist and they are based on evidence....people don't draw perceptions from thin air. There is no CI (Corporate Intelligence) campaign against the Pointer.

The "picture" presented of the Pointer....the priorities as expressed by those who champion the breed...is that of a big running, high drive, (sometimes) out of sight dog. NOTICE...I did not say run off...don't make up words for me. What I am trying to say is that what is valuable as presented by the Pointer enthusiasts is not what many gun dog owners can digest and understand. Again...when someone posts with pride a picture of his GPS pinned at 800 yds to the northwest, you are speaking to relatively few of the bird hunting public.

The difficulty is that fellow Pointer breeders/enthusiasts would (I suspect) not be overjoyed to put a Youtube video online of their dogs acting like a 1-200yd foothunters dog which is about the comfort limit for most bird hunters. You have a perception problem....which I don't think you're too interested in correcting...you would rather maintain the crown of the king of the bird dogs, going faster and farther than all others...the 200yd "plodder" I suspect would be an embarrassment. Could be what is stopping the expansion of the Pointer as the family/hunting dog...you really don't make much effort to present it as such.

To reiterate...I believe COMPLETELY that I can take an AA bred Pointer and make a very nice 50-300 yd walk up bird dog...but then I have been training dogs for 41 years. Show the public horses, dogs being found by the spotter, a GPS pinned at 800 yds and those with little experience are automatically going to make assumptions...on the basis of what you're touting. I know that most dogs aren't born running 800 yds ahead and that dogs can be "conditioned" for what you want...but that's not what is being presented.

Whether my opinion has am impact on prices....I wouldn't say for sure....but the market pretty much regulates itself given supply, perception of value and demand.

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:26 pm

Maybe this will help...got it off the AKC web,pointing dog ancestry
Pointer History
The Pointer was the first dog, so far as we know, used to stand game in the sense in which we use the term today, and was developed as a distinct breed much earlier than any of the setters. It seems likely that Pointers came into general use in Spain, Portugal, throughout Eastern Europe and in the British Isles at approximately the same time, although the development of the English Pointer took place in Great Britain. The first Pointers appeared in England around 1650, some time before wing-shooting with guns became popular, and Pointers were often used to locate and point hares in conjunction with Greyhound coursing. However, by the 18th century, wing-shooting had come into vogue, and the "shorthair" has been considered by the majority of sportsmen the equal, if not the superior, of any of the gun dogs.

How many sportsman wing shooters do you think are in the US????

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:53 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Petroplex Hunter wrote: I've owned and trained several retrievers and still have a nice female Boykin. Boykins are wonderful dogs, maybe one of the best in the dove field (I think a clipped boykin handles the 100 degree September heat better than a big lab), but the labs are going to beat a boykin 9/10 when it comes to overall retrieving -- Maybe it's the same way with GSP's v. Pointers? I really don't know. Boykins in my neck of the desert are tough to come by and fetch a premium (over $1,000 for a pup), while a lab great lab would cost less than 500 bones.
I will say first that it is common here to find good hunting labs here that are going to be fine for 80% of hunters with NO health clearance for $300. When you say a GREAT lab for less than $500 please send me the pedigrees for the pups because I been looking for one, if the female is a FC the pups are generally priced $3000 and up with a few as low as $2000.

Sorry, I should have clarified, I am speaking about proven hunting labs with good hips and eyes. Unfortunately, I've never attended a retriever field trial or hunt test...I'm sure those pups are much more expensive with proven title winners on both sides. I may have just been lucky, but most of the dogs that I've owned were pups that came from friends I hunt with. I've been hunting with the same group of guys since I started shooting birds so I have a good idea of what the parents were capable of in the field...what's even better, the last two dogs I've had were given to me as gifts and they have been wonderful hunting dogs that were free. Between dove, duck, quail and woodcock season I get to hunt 45-50 days a year and would personally rather hunt than trial dogs, although I think I would enjoy trialing at some point in my life. I have nice hunting dogs, but I'm sure a champion could probably perform on a higher level than my freebies.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:20 pm

The Pointer was the first dog, so far as we know, used to stand game in the sense in which we use the term today, and was developed as a distinct breed much earlier than any of the setters. It seems likely that Pointers came into general use in Spain, Portugal, throughout Eastern Europe and in the British Isles at approximately the same time, although the development of the English Pointer took place in Great Britain. The first Pointers appeared in England around 1650, some time before wing-shooting with guns became popular, and Pointers were often used to locate and point hares in conjunction with Greyhound coursing. However, by the 18th century, wing-shooting had come into vogue, and the "shorthair" has been considered by the majority of sportsmen the equal, if not the superior, of any of the gun dogs.

Is that the AKC Pointer or the FDSB Pointer.....we all agree there is a difference. The working Pointer in England was/is a walk up gentleman's shooting dog. The working Pointer in the US has been redefined as a horseback big country dog...two different dogs in appearance and style.

gspguy · Post by **gspguy** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:54 pm

There's a coverdog pointer litter in MN right now that is priced at over $1000 per pup. I can get a pretty good gsp pup out of FT lines for a fair amount less than that.