English Setter

Essoclub · Post by **Essoclub** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:53 pm

New member looking for advice on English setters. I am currently looking into a dual English setter and have a few questions concerning the breed. Would this be a good dog primarily for the home? My wife and I really like what we've read online about the Ryman type setters and want to be informed before making a decision. How do they relate temperament wise to say a lab? I am looking for a family pet that socializes well with other people and dogs that is not wound up and bouncing off the wall. Does anyone have feedback/reviews on Flanagan springs kennel? I have searched for reviews online but haven't found anything? I appreciate the help.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:50 pm

You've got a private message in your inbox.

You're gonna get a lot of replies saying that "it's not the breed, it's the dog - every individual is different". I'm far from any kind of authority on Setters, but I've had three and I'll tell you the experience I've had with mine.

I've had one rescue dog (Tommy), one cover-dog bred Setter (Jack) and one AA bred Setter (Cinna, puppy). All three dogs are very companionable and enjoy attention, but all three are exceptionally soft. They are all three slow learners and stayed puppies for a long time, except Jack who was a slow developer, but not exceedingly slow like the other two.

None of my Setters have been outgoing. They are each aloof with close contact and maybe best described as a little "shy" as opposed to standoffish. They do very well with other dogs. Something that has really eaten me up about them is that each had major problems with house breaking. Cinna is six-and-half months and had a HUGE accident just two days ago whereas my Pointer and Shepherd were both totally housebroke in a month or so. Cinna knows to go to the door, but it's almost like her system is jacked up. All three dogs were barkers and have an ornery streak from... well, let's just say they have a bit of an ornery streak.

I really enjoy how they seem to need me more than most other dogs I've had, though. There is a real deep attachment they pinned on me not long after coming into the home. They are just something to look at when they lock up, too. Photos just don't do it justice. The way they carry themselves and act. They exude elegance and regality. All of them have not just been friendly, but sweetheartedness.

I'm really excited to see the phases Cinna goes through as she gets older. She's the only Setter I will have brought on from puppy hood. She's really filling out and is very photogenic. Here's some photos of her.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... aStand.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... Stand2.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... naPose.jpg

QuailHollow · Post by **QuailHollow** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:34 am

I have never personally owned a Setter, but have a friend who raises Gordon setters. The biggest gripe I hear from her is regarding temperament. They are often soft and 'worry' about things. She has noted that while they are this way at home, when she gets them out the open up. That's about all I can really add. I have English Pointers.

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:12 am

If you meant Flanaghan Grouse Ridge Kennels, I have plenty of experience helping a buddy train their 30 or so of their puppy and derbies for the last 4 years. These ES's have been awesome dogs, bidability, birdwork and calm in the house. My buddy has 4-5 in the house. Calm to say the least. At least compared to the 5 GSP's I have in my house. Straight up though, if you any questions PM me. I don't have any stake in any of these dogs or the Kennel itself, just experience with their stock.

solon · Post by **solon** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:44 am

Essoclub,
You don't mention where you live nor do you say anything about hunting your future setter.

Grouse Ridge Kennel owned by the Flanagans in NY raises cover dog setters with some in flux of horse back dogs and they have been in business for a several of generations. These are field bred setters, not Ryman type, and their pups or started dogs would be very good choices for hunters.

I don't know much about Ryman setters and the so called dual setter is a misnomer. Good article on that subject at the Foster Award site by Ryan Frame:

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... #Dual_Dogs_

I stand corrected if I get this wrong, but the Ryman type setter, (George Ryman being deceased so the true Ryman no longer exists), are setters used primarily for hunting, not for conformation shows, but their conformations are more like show dogs, at least how they were in the past. That is they are a larger and longer haired setter than field types.

I know a good breeder of Ryman type setters here in Vermont: Fireside Setters owned by LynnDee Gaylee: https://plus.google.com/105731217876143969368/posts
I think she has a litter on the way. LynnDee keeps around 5 of them in the house, so you can conclude they do fine as pet/companion dogs in the home.

Essoclub · Post by **Essoclub** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:29 am

Thanks for all of the replies. I live in south carolina and do not plan to hunt with the dog often. The breeder I was looking at is Flanagan Springs Kennel in Kentucky, flanaganspringskennel.com, and it appears most of the dams/sires are from DeCoverly and Pinecobble bloodlines.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:12 am

Essoclub -

I can't speak to many other setter breeders, but Pete and Katie Flanagan have some of the best bred setters for the hunter that you could ask for. Pete runs his dogs in walking field trials and does quite well. The Flanagans have been breeding and raising quality setters for as long as Bob Whele raised pointers.

I am a pointer person, but if I were looking for a setter as a hunting companion, Grouse Ridge would be near the top of the list.

RayG

solon · Post by **solon** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:25 am

Essoclub wrote:Thanks for all of the replies. I live in south carolina and do not plan to hunt with the dog often. The breeder I was looking at is Flanagan Springs Kennel in Kentucky, flanaganspringskennel.com, and it appears most of the dams/sires are from DeCoverly and Pinecobble bloodlines.

Yes, I did a Google search after posting and found the Flanagan Spring's web page. I have no knowledge of their operation, but the web page suggests that they are a reasonable source of the Ryman type setter. I am not so sure I like their health guarantee. It is ok for hip dysplasia, but it only allows a couple of months for the OFA certification to be done. 36 months might be better. Also, there is no coverage for other heritable health problems that might be severe. Many of these might not manifest symptoms for up to years after birth. Heritable epilepsy being one example. This not to say that these breeders don't make every effort to breed healthy pups, I believe they do. I am also curious as to what the purchase price of these Ryman type setter pups is. I didn't find it on the web site. You can get a well bred field trial type setter for between $500 and $800 with some being more or less than that range. Generally there is a premium if both sire and dam are champions.

If you are not a serious hunter, then perhaps the field trial type setter is not for you. It would likely have more range and "horsepower" than would fit your dog training skills. It is most important to get a dog that fits your needs. One advantage of the modern field trial bred setter that I have noticed is that they develop early, that is point birds at young ages and advance rapidly through training.

Just for your information though, the field trial type setter in my experience is not a hyperactive dog in the home and I find them easier to house than the labs I have had or known. My preference is for a medium size dog, like less than 55 lbs, and you can get that in labs or setters, even some Rymans could come in that small. My son has a couple of labs, about 80 lb dogs, and when they get to romping around, you best be careful you don't end up with a blown out knee. I have seen them take him down when they got to chasing each other and gave him a chop block. Of course such generalizations of breeds or lines don't cover every individual. Most any athletic sporting dog does best with some regular exercise. Give them some run time each day and they can happily be couch potatoes the rest of the day.

Good luck with your new dog.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:52 am

Essoclub,
Ryman type Setters are great hunting and family pets, bred by George Ryman to be layed back in the home and great Grouse hunters in the woods. Lynn Dee has good Ryman Grouse dog, along with Andy Sorg and a few others. We have developed
a Ryman Breeders list that we work form in our Grouse dog training business. Make sure the breeder you pick has a repetative
HD testing program, and Guarantees the health of the dog along with the hunting instinct. Make sure the breeder will replace the dog if it developes HD. If you would like to know more about the Ryman breeders list drop me a private message or e-mail me at Pine-Creek@live.com
RGD/Dave

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:27 pm

Why don't you find a rescue if you're not going to hunt with the dog? I can't stand the thought of well-bred hunting dogs going to houses that don't hunt, not fair to the dog, IMHO.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:00 pm

x2

( You can't work with a more experienced/ pleasant breeder than Pete Flanagan.)

buckshot0074 · Post by **buckshot0074** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:18 pm

Stoneface wrote:You've got a private message in your inbox.

You're gonna get a lot of replies saying that "it's not the breed, it's the dog - every individual is different". I'm far from any kind of authority on Setters, but I've had three and I'll tell you the experience I've had with mine.

I've had one rescue dog (Tommy), one cover-dog bred Setter (Jack) and one AA bred Setter (Cinna, puppy). All three dogs are very companionable and enjoy attention, but all three are exceptionally soft. They are all three slow learners and stayed puppies for a long time, except Jack who was a slow developer, but not exceedingly slow like the other two.

None of my Setters have been outgoing. They are each aloof with close contact and maybe best described as a little "shy" as opposed to standoffish. They do very well with other dogs. Something that has really eaten me up about them is that each had major problems with house breaking. Cinna is six-and-half months and had a HUGE accident just two days ago whereas my Pointer and Shepherd were both totally housebroke in a month or so. Cinna knows to go to the door, but it's almost like her system is jacked up. All three dogs were barkers and have an ornery streak from... well, let's just say they have a bit of an ornery streak.

I really enjoy how they seem to need me more than most other dogs I've had, though. There is a real deep attachment they pinned on me not long after coming into the home. They are just something to look at when they lock up, too. Photos just don't do it justice. The way they carry themselves and act. They exude elegance and regality. All of them have not just been friendly, but sweetheartedness.

I'm really excited to see the phases Cinna goes through as she gets older. She's the only Setter I will have brought on from puppy hood. She's really filling out and is very photogenic. Here's some photos of her.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... aStand.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... Stand2.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo27 ... naPose.jpg

I own my second setter, (first as an adult, had one as a kid. He is almost exactly as described above (w/o the potty accidents, we have a doggy door)

He is very attached to our family, he seems to know who is having a 'bad day' and seeks out that persons attention, and has been great in the field as well

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:27 pm

Are you looking for an 8 week old puppy, a started dog, a young housebroke dog, doesn't matter, etc....there is so much out there as you can tell by most of the opinions you're receiving?

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:40 pm

I have a 5 month old ES and I just love her. She learns quickly and is very 'birdy'. She's also really affectionate, social and outgoing and was 100% house-trained in about a month after I got her (crate training is miraculous). She's my first setter and first upland dog (had labs in the past). It's definitely a whole different ball game than my labs. I suppose she would be considered 'soft' in comparison with my labs but it works for me because I employ positive training until I know for sure the dog understands what is expected when a command is given before I use any corrections/discipline. She's a great house dog as well. She has not chewed anything that she wasn't supposed to in the house (I offer lots of chew options including bully sticks, greenies, nylabones, ropes, tennis balls and kongs) and she's really mellow as long as she gets her exercise. I started her at 8 weeks with short field walks (15 minutes) and have built up to 2 hour field walks or 3-5 mile runs on or off leash. Like I said, I've never had any other kind of upland dog so I don't have much frame of reference but I'm real happy with her. Anyway, my two cents. Best wishes to you whatever you decide.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:12 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:Why don't you find a rescue if you're not going to hunt with the dog? I can't stand the thought of well-bred hunting dogs going to houses that don't hunt, not fair to the dog, IMHO.

Exactly what I was going to suggest. There are some GREAT setters in rescue right now with the economy. And if it's not going to really be a hunting dog, then you can likely find one that fits right in your family and really needs a home. Here's just two from about 2 minutes of searching. Good alternative if you're really not looking for a high-powered hunting machine.

big_jacka1840-23.jpg

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:07 pm

I have had a fair number of Setters, Irish, Red, Gordon, English/Llewellin. They have all been inside the house dogs. All have been very easy to house break ( but you have to do your part).

Ryman types are not real plentiful in this part of the country, but I have seen a few, and they were nice dogs.

Essoclub · Post by **Essoclub** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:58 pm

Thank you for the replies. I have looked into adoptions for the past year. I look at the site where those pictures where pulled, ACES, and it seems they have an extensive adoption process with adoption fees of $300 - $350 for a dog that has been brought to them for any number of reasons. Why not get a dog with a known temperament and guarantee for $200 more. It's a pretty big investment. Thanks again.

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:01 am

Most rescues are not there because there's something wrong with them, they're there because the owner didn't know what he was getting or $$$ etc. You can spend time (a lot over multiple visits if you want) with any dog you're considering to get a solid feel for temperament etc. The reason you should get a rescue is not to save money but to save a dog that has a good chance of being everything you want without wasting the talents of a high powered bird dog pup who should go to a hunting home.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:41 am

Another vote for a rescue, here. I have three setters that we bought as puppies, and have had two rescues in with them. The thing with the rescues, you know what you're getting. You know the temperament, health issues, activity level, etc, that is all a crap shoot with a puppy. I can tell you that both my rescue girls fit in perfectly here because we were able to choose exactly what we wanted to complement our little pack. Whereas two of the three we purchased as puppies are the kind of dogs that would drive us absolutely crazy if we didn't have the appropriate resources of time and area to keep them heavily exercised and tired.

One of our rescues was a 'private adoption'. The previous owner had died and left his wife with a kennel full of dogs to place. There was no adoption fee or home inspection etc. but we paid for vaccinations, spaying, and surgery for mammary tumors when we brought her home, around $1200.. Our other rescue girl came from Petfinders, and we drove 600 miles one way to get her. She was spayed and up to date on all vaccinations, heartworm meds, and flea preve atives. The $300 adoption fee was less than than the series of vaccinations etc for the ones we got as puppies.

Not to mention there's just something about taking in a recue that's the proper fit. They just touch your heart in a certain way, and they let you into theirs.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:00 pm

I agree that you should consider a rescue. I didn't notice the post that said you didn't plan to hunt often. A friend of mine has two setters that were rescues and both are great dogs. They have a very active family and the dogs go everywhere with them from mountain biking to vacations on the coast. They're wonderful family dogs that love the kids. I'd take either one of them in a minute for a family pet and I think with a little work either one could be a good hunting dog for the occasional hunter. There are some great dogs out there that just got into situations that didn't work out.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:12 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:Most rescues are not there because there's something wrong with them, they're there because the owner didn't know what he was getting or $$$ etc. You can spend time (a lot over multiple visits if you want) with any dog you're considering to get a solid feel for temperament etc. The reason you should get a rescue is not to save money but to save a dog that has a good chance of being everything you want without wasting the talents of a high powered bird dog pup who should go to a hunting home.

To be fair to the poster though , there are no promises. At our shelter you can't bring the dog back if it doesn't work out. Two of the rescues I had , I had to put down due to viciousness/fear biter. Buying from a reputable breeder comes with certain benefits that a shelter doesn't offer.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:31 pm

My son rescued a Doberman male a couple of years ago from a Dobbie
rescue group. He was an amazing, big guy. Very well mannered, very easy to be around.

He was 96 lbs of muscle and yet a real sweet guy.

He unfortunately passed away suddenly of the genetic heart thing that many Dobbies have.
They were devastated, of course.

I felt an immediate liking and bond with him. He needed a good permanent home, and they
loved him from first sight. There is something special about the rescued dogs.

Mike

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Sharon wrote: To be fair to the poster though , there are no promises. At our shelter you can't bring the dog back if it doesn't work out. Two of the rescues I had , I had to put down due to viciousness/fear biter. Buying from a reputable breeder comes with certain benefits that a shelter doesn't offer.

There are no promises with any dog you get. Knowing the puppies bloodlines can help and I'm all for buying from a reputable breeder when you NEED a specific thing. I wouldn't ever bash anyone from going to a good reputable breeder and buying a good hunting dog if that's what they were going to do with the dog, or herding, or retrieving, or trialing, or showing....

But I will tell you that in all the years I've fostered and in the ones I've kept or placed through the years (at least fostered over 50 birddogs) I have NEVER had an issue with temperament that couldn't be solved by more socialization. I've never had a fear biter and I do not know any reputable rescue that would rehome a biter (or even take one in). All the birddog rescues I've dealt with have strict policies on dogs with a bite history - they just don't make it to the adoptable list. Even our local hick shelter will put down a dog that has a bite history and not offer it for adoption. All dogs are temperament tested. In this day and age of the internet, you can find almost exactly the dog you want in rescue. We got a young male chessie last year from a shelter in Utah....had to work out transport, but it ended up being well worth it!

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:52 pm

Ys , i think it is my shelter that is the problem . In 5 minutes you can be out of there with a dog. Both those dogs were give 2 years but became such a liability that the vet recommended putting them down. I guess i was just unlucky.

buckshot0074 · Post by **buckshot0074** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Essoclub wrote:Thank you for the replies. I have looked into adoptions for the past year. I look at the site where those pictures where pulled, ACES, and it seems they have an extensive adoption process with adoption fees of $300 - $350 for a dog that has been brought to them for any number of reasons. Why not get a dog with a known temperament and guarantee for $200 more. It's a pretty big investment. Thanks again.

I tried to get a rescue puppy, after they did my background check and came to my house to see this was a suitable place I was approved. Then things went downhill ! My daughter (who was 10 at the time) picked out a puppy from their website (there was a few puppies available) we were told that pup was already spoken for. So she picked out another, HUH that pup wasn't available. All along the rescue was trying to steer us to take this one specific pup, that my daughter didn't want. In the end we had picked out three different dogs and were 'denied'.

It cost $350 through this rescue to adopt and if something happens to pup (lost, sick, etc ....) you have to notify the rescue FIRST before you do anything (their rules). So after the runaround I found pup and bought him $550 (including crate and shipping).

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:57 am

Essoclub,
I agree with the rescue dog also, if you never plan to hunt. You can find a nice Setter in a rescue shelter for minimal money,
and save the dogs life. Owning a Ryman gun dog and not hunting is a sin in itself.
RGD/Dave

BirdBuster · Post by **BirdBuster** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:33 pm

If you plan on hunting with the dog, I would get a pup from a good hunting breed. I think the price the rescue is charging, is bull. I am a setter person, but if I lived any further south, I would look into a short hair dog. The long haired ones will get hotter quicker in the woods. Since you want a house dog, a GSP from a hunting line may fit what you are looking for, better. A English Pointer may be a little to hyper. Hope you enjoy your new pup. Let the fun times begin.

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