Bias against walking handled dogs

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tenbearsviz
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by tenbearsviz » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:30 am

trueblu wrote:tenbears, however, I do want to be excited by range. Not just huge going, not running off, going with the handler,whether on foot or horseback. I've seen a lot of folks who walk their dogs, don't own horses, don't attend many trials,be very upset because, "my dog had 6 finds and the winner only had 2" or "my dog had so much style but he didn't place" or "man my dog really worked those fields, he listened, turned on the whistle, but he didn't place". Most of those folks don't have clue one what is expected in a trial and many have never hunted a day in their lives. Juddges don't count finds, judges are not impressed with a dog that hunts its rear off 50 yards away, judges aren't impressed with style if the dog yo yo'ed the entire brace, they aren't impressed with a wonderful stylish find dead broke on the horse path. Point is, it's really hard to knock the judging unless one knows what the heck they are looking for and knows dogs themselves AND rides all braces. There are a lot of experts back at camp sitting around telling how much they know!!
You bring up two excellent points. 1... What excites you may or may not excite me or any one else watching or judging. This is a subjective sport... a beauty contest with wheels. and 2.. Unless you see every brace, you cannot judge the stake, End of story.

As for bigsugar's comment above. That statement is completely off base. If a horseback handler is "inconvenienced" by a walking handler then they are in the wrong sport. Walkers are part of the sport. If one cannot handle at the pace of a walker then they should run in AF where there are no walking handlers allowed in some of there events.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by shags » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:03 am

tenbearsviz wrote:As for bigsugar's comment above. That statement is completely off base. If a horseback handler is "inconvenienced" by a walking handler then they are in the wrong sport. Walkers are part of the sport. If one cannot handle at the pace of a walker then they should run in AF where there are no walking handlers allowed in some of there events.
Not so much. In a horseback stake, horseback handling is the norm and to walk throws things off a little bit, so to speak. It's a stake where walkers are allowed, not a walking stake where horseback handling is permitted.

Think if you are braced in a walking stake with a handicapped handler who chooses to ride. How would your performance be affected if you were told "hurry up, you are holding your bracemate back" all the way around the course?

Mixed braces are part of the game and we deal with them. But walkers in horseback stakes are not victims and need to quit whining about how put upon they are by their bracemates, who are also making accomodations that they may not see as "fair" either.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:11 am

Not so much. In a horseback stake, horseback handling is the norm and to walk throws things off a little bit, so to speak. It's a stake where walkers are allowed, not a walking stake where horseback handling is permitted
I may be wrong, but i believe ALL AKC trials are walking stakes and HB handling is permitted. Read the premium. That is how Don Paltani explained it to me.

Doug

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:00 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Not so much. In a horseback stake, horseback handling is the norm and to walk throws things off a little bit, so to speak. It's a stake where walkers are allowed, not a walking stake where horseback handling is permitted
I may be wrong, but i believe ALL AKC trials are walking stakes and HB handling is permitted. Read the premium. That is how Don Paltani explained it to me.

Doug

Doug -

You are absolutely correct. Horseback handling is permitted. The judgers must set a pace that reasonably accomodates the walking handler.

However if the horseback handler has an opportunity to separate themselves from the other handler and dog...theat is what will happen. At the walking handler's first find, it will be bye bye, so long see ya later.

If the horseback handled dog casts out to where it normally would, it will generally carry the other dog out with it. That can be well beyond the range where the walking handler, or their dog is comfortable. The horseback handler is still ten feet tall and the dog sees that and knows that.

Also previously mentioned was the fact that dogs, being the competitive animals they are, will strive to gain the front. When one of the handler's is walking, that means that their dog is out there in front with no handler. The bracing handler or judge is under no obligation to handle the other dog, and that very often means that things will not turn out so well for the dog whose handler is back a quarter mile. For example, if the walking handler's dog goes on point and the horseback handler can guide thieir dog around the pointing dog without the necessity of backing...the judge following the horseback dog may have no option but to leave the dog on point and follow the dog that is to the front. To do otherwise would be unfair to the horseback handled dog.

There are plusses and minuses on both sides, as has been previously noted. The horseback handler is requried to "accomodate" the walking handler in a stake where horseback handling is permitted. However, the horseback handle is only doing what is in their dog's best interest, if they effect a separation from the walking handler and proceed to run their own dog the way they need to.

In reality, the judges are also required to "accomodate" the pace of the walking handler. That can result in negative reactions from the judges. If one of the judges is forced to keep a close rein on their horse in order to stay behind the walker while the other horse is waaaaay out to the front, they might not enjoy that quite so much. Fighting with your horse is not fun and might just make watching the walking handler's dog a bit less pleasant. As hard as one might try to be objective....

What is, is. If it is a walking stake...all the handler's walk. If it is a stake where horseback handling is permitted and you choose to walk...hitch up your shorts, make sure your shoelaces are double knotted, have at it... and good luck to you.

RayG

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:21 am

I walked my dog in two HB trials. Only because she wouldn't leave the horse in the very first trial and I used it as a method to get her to range with horses involved. It was tough, due to trying to keep up and not limit the other handler anymore than needed. I did speak to the other handler before the event and let them know my intentions and to see what they felt about it.

I understand where you are coming from. Not everyone is a rider. Seen people who were scared of horses get thrown from a horse that never had an issue. They sense fear and will react. Just the way it is. In most cases a foot dog has different application and expectation. Your dog needs to run the application for the trial you have entered. My pup runs a completely different race when she sees me pull the quad out. If I'm on foot, she changes up a little. It is just the way it is.

Don't give up on trials. Just play the right game for you. If you choose to walk then hit the walking trials. We have them out here often. Just like next month is an all walking trial. Even the open is a walking trial.

Good Luck,

Joe

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by SubMariner » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:40 am

snips wrote:Cheryl we are headed to FL for a walking trial, did not see u guys names there.
Which one? We are entered in the NFGSPC trial up @ M-Town next weekend & will probably be doing some others around FL & possibly some neighbouring states.

BTW, Cheeney is doing awesome in the field. :)
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:41 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Not so much. In a horseback stake, horseback handling is the norm and to walk throws things off a little bit, so to speak. It's a stake where walkers are allowed, not a walking stake where horseback handling is permitted
I may be wrong, but i believe ALL AKC trials are walking stakes and HB handling is permitted. Read the premium. That is how Don Paltani explained it to me.

Doug

Doug -

You are absolutely correct. Horseback handling is permitted. The judgers must set a pace that reasonably accomodates the walking handler.

However if the horseback handler has an opportunity to separate themselves from the other handler and dog...theat is what will happen. At the walking handler's first find, it will be bye bye, so long see ya later.

If the horseback handled dog casts out to where it normally would, it will generally carry the other dog out with it. That can be well beyond the range where the walking handler, or their dog is comfortable. The horseback handler is still ten feet tall and the dog sees that and knows that.

Also previously mentioned was the fact that dogs, being the competitive animals they are, will strive to gain the front. When one of the handler's is walking, that means that their dog is out there in front with no handler. The bracing handler or judge is under no obligation to handle the other dog, and that very often means that things will not turn out so well for the dog whose handler is back a quarter mile. For example, if the walking handler's dog goes on point and the horseback handler can guide thieir dog around the pointing dog without the necessity of backing...the judge following the horseback dog may have no option but to leave the dog on point and follow the dog that is to the front. To do otherwise would be unfair to the horseback handled dog.

There are plusses and minuses on both sides, as has been previously noted. The horseback handler is requried to "accomodate" the walking handler in a stake where horseback handling is permitted. However, the horseback handle is only doing what is in their dog's best interest, if they effect a separation from the walking handler and proceed to run their own dog the way they need to.

In reality, the judges are also required to "accomodate" the pace of the walking handler. That can result in negative reactions from the judges. If one of the judges is forced to keep a close rein on their horse in order to stay behind the walker while the other horse is waaaaay out to the front, they might not enjoy that quite so much. Fighting with your horse is not fun and might just make watching the walking handler's dog a bit less pleasant. As hard as one might try to be objective....

What is, is. If it is a walking stake...all the handler's walk. If it is a stake where horseback handling is permitted and you choose to walk...hitch up your shorts, make sure your shoelaces are double knotted, have at it... and good luck to you.

RayG
Right on Ray, I agree with you 100%. I was just stating the facts. I think there might be some confusion between AKC and AF/AFTCA rules. Maybe not? You won't see me walking at a HB trial. I can barely walk fast enough at a walking trial to keep in front of the judges! :lol: (not really).

Doug

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:45 am

tenbearsviz wrote: As for bigsugar's comment above. That statement is completely off base. If a horseback handler is "inconvenienced" by a walking handler then they are in the wrong sport. Walkers are part of the sport. If one cannot handle at the pace of a walker then they should run in AF where there are no walking handlers allowed in some of there events.
No what's completely off base is the fact that I showed up to a a HORSEBACK all age trial and now I have to suffer because someone who doesn't like horses or can't ride them decides to walk during my brace. We spend so much time trying to accomodate everyone and that's fine to an extent but when accomodating someone starts to incovenience others then its not ok any longer. There are venues where you can walk and handle your dog. Go there and try that and see what you think. I think it's awful narrow mined for you (tenbearsviz) or anyone else to think that because one person isn't getting with the program that everyone else should have to suffer because of it. Like I said earlier I will show up and run my dog the way that it needs to be ran regardless of the other handler. If I separate and take his dog out with me then that's a him problem. Get a horse. I didn't travel and pay fuel and pay for food and buy horses and buy a garmin and buy a nice trailer and pay entry fees and look far and wide to secure good training grounds to make sure the other handler can get a fair shake and run his dog the way he wants to and put me in a bind by doing so. Sorry. Just a dose of reality for you.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by SubMariner » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:28 am

tenbearsviz wrote:Subm and family,

A couple things.. As you and your dogs venture to other grounds then where you traditionally compete, you will see that horseback handling has less advantage then you think.

A couple curves... AKC rules allow judges to subjectively judge based on the stake and whether it is horseback or not. Can't tell you the rule book page number but recently the AKC has determined that in a horseback trial, dogs are judged at a horseback expectation... Now what is a horseback expectation? Common fact is that a dog handled on horseback, that is USED to being run on horseback AND wants to hunt with you, will work closer with a walking handler. It is either through natural desire of the dog, or by handling methods. Now... what makes a judge sit up in the saddle and take notice? A dog that uses the course with the best application. IF a judge believes that your dog would better use the course if the course allows that advantage (see first sentence) then he/she is projecting that he was expecting more. It doesn't mean your dog would do better on horseback.

What is "more"? More to me is different then more to others.

So now I'll bring it home. Dogs run at MTown in a horseback trial with horseback mentality bird planters will get an advantage over a closer working walked dog... BUT will also have an advantage over close horseback handled dogs.. Next, take your dog to Lake Wales.. Ever seen a big running walking handled dog blow by birds while the closer dog works birds in it's wake? Happens all the time. Now to Mascotte... Big runners fly out to the center, or under the citrus while the closer working dogs sweep up the finds.

OK.. enough yammering.. not all judges see this game the same. Horse back trials are judged at a different expectation. You should showcase your dogs talents where the judges and the courses best suit his application. Statements that you have heard about doing better off horseback are a projection of that judge's desire to have your dog range excite them. Your means of conveyance is not the issue. It is their excuse.
Great post.

Although we've done other venues in the past (Lake Wales, Mascotte, Quincy) we'll try to widen out even more in the months to come.
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by JKP » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:47 am

No what's completely off base is the fact that I showed up to a a HORSEBACK all age trial and now I have to suffer because someone who doesn't like horses or can't ride them decides to walk during my brace. We spend so much time trying to accomodate everyone and that's fine to an extent but when accomodating someone starts to incovenience others then its not ok any longer.
This sounds like whining...if the sport and the rules allow for walking entrants, then you have to be prepared. Never heard anyone whine on the basketball court because the other team wouldn't play "our" style of ball. Sounds like you need to get the rules changed....til then be prepared for how the game is played. :)

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by shags » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:53 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
Not so much. In a horseback stake, horseback handling is the norm and to walk throws things off a little bit, so to speak. It's a stake where walkers are allowed, not a walking stake where horseback handling is permitted
I may be wrong, but i believe ALL AKC trials are walking stakes and HB handling is permitted. Read the premium. That is how Don Paltani explained it to me.

Doug
The book designates differences in range for HB and walking dogs. If all stakes are walking with HB handling permitted, why would any difference be mentioned? They'd all be walking dogs. If horseback handling is permitted, that makes it a HB stake, just as "no horseback handling permitted" makes it walking.

When I pay my entry fee, I expect to be able to handle my dog to his best advantage, as long as I don't interfere with my bracemate's right to do the same. But I'm not going to hinder my dog because of my bracemate's choices. it's not about getting an advantage over walkers, it's about not being disadvantaged because of them.

All the issues and drama could easily be prevented by allowing walking handlers in HB "permitted" stakes to be braced together. Seems like everyone would be more evenly matched and no one put to disadvantage.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by tenbearsviz » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:54 am

bigsugar wrote:
tenbearsviz wrote: As for bigsugar's comment above. That statement is completely off base. If a horseback handler is "inconvenienced" by a walking handler then they are in the wrong sport. Walkers are part of the sport. If one cannot handle at the pace of a walker then they should run in AF where there are no walking handlers allowed in some of there events.
No what's completely off base is the fact that I showed up to a a HORSEBACK all age trial and now I have to suffer because someone who doesn't like horses or can't ride them decides to walk during my brace. We spend so much time trying to accomodate everyone and that's fine to an extent but when accomodating someone starts to incovenience others then its not ok any longer. There are venues where you can walk and handle your dog. Go there and try that and see what you think. I think it's awful narrow mined for you (tenbearsviz) or anyone else to think that because one person isn't getting with the program that everyone else should have to suffer because of it. Like I said earlier I will show up and run my dog the way that it needs to be ran regardless of the other handler. If I separate and take his dog out with me then that's a him problem. Get a horse. I didn't travel and pay fuel and pay for food and buy horses and buy a garmin and buy a nice trailer and pay entry fees and look far and wide to secure good training grounds to make sure the other handler can get a fair shake and run his dog the way he wants to and put me in a bind by doing so. Sorry. Just a dose of reality for you.
Bigsugar,

If the rules allow it, as they do in AKC trials, which is where submariner runs, then you pay your money and you take your chances. Learn how to handle with a walker and make the best out of it. Rules in AKC are to accommodate the walking handler. Judges set the pace. Go ahead and handle as you need fit. See if the judges don't slow you down. If you get separated, go for it. If his dog goes with you, Yep, his problem. He paid his money and rolls the dice just like you did.

So which program am I not getting? That trials are all walking and some allow horseback? Or maybe I am reading a different rule book.

Thanks for that dose of reality... whoever's version it is.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:12 pm

In AKC horseback handling is permitted. Originally all stakes were walking with horses coming in later. To this day horseback handling is permitted. That is the truth, there is no arguing!!
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by shags » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:17 pm

No where in the AKC rulebook does it say that all trials are walking and in some HB handling is permitted. Foot handlers are permitted in all stakes, but that doesn't make them walking stakes. Look on page 35 - it mentions horseback handling gun dog stakes specifically. Why so if they were all walking?

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:25 pm

shags wrote:No where in the AKC rulebook does it say that all trials are walking and in some HB handling is permitted. Foot handlers are permitted in all stakes, but that doesn't make them walking stakes. Look on page 35 - it mentions horseback handling gun dog stakes specifically. Why so if they were all walking?
Why the need to argue??
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Sharon » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:42 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
shags wrote:No where in the AKC rulebook does it say that all trials are walking and in some HB handling is permitted. Foot handlers are permitted in all stakes, but that doesn't make them walking stakes. Look on page 35 - it mentions horseback handling gun dog stakes specifically. Why so if they were all walking?
Why the need to argue??

Reasons to argue:

1. a need to be right always
2. You want readers to only have the "right" info.
3. You had a fight with your wife.
4. too much coffee, beer, wine
5 You are bored. :)
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Winchey » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:25 pm

All of the above, and because it is fun.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:05 pm

It was nice that the foot handlers decided to allow horse back handling strictly as a means of conveyance, so the pro's or people with several dogs wouldn't have to walk all day but you can see where the oft repeated saying "all good deeds will never go unpunished" comes from. The inmates want to rule the asylum.

People read the rules and then come back and disguss how unfair it is.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ultracarry » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:26 pm

If I'm braced with a walking handler and my dog goes on point ill run the horse over, work the bird and get out before I'm stuck... Judges can make the call on if they will allow it and if they dont I will thank them and pick my dog up.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:27 pm

I guess that I am a little more considerate then to go to a trial and burden another handler and his dog because of my inability or lack of desire to play the game that way it is SUPPOSED to be play by todays standard. Things change Ezzy and you either evolve with it or parish. Just how it is. If you like to walk with your dog then there is a venue for that.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by shags » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:29 pm

LOL walking handlers didn't "allow" anything. The HB handling permitted phrase has to do with whether the club wants to support it, or if it's it permitted on the particular grounds.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:37 pm

Shags you are getting nowhere. Rhonda and I are headed out to run dogs off horse because on our training grounds it's permitted. :lol: And necessary.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ACooper » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:07 pm

Sharon wrote: Reasons to argue:

1. a need to be right always
2. You want readers to only have the "right" info.
3. You had a fight with your wife.
4. too much coffee, beer, wine
5 You are bored. :)
Now that is funny.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:38 pm

shags wrote:LOL walking handlers didn't "allow" anything. The HB handling permitted phrase has to do with whether the club wants to support it, or if it's it permitted on the particular grounds.
You still don't get it.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:12 pm

ezzy333 wrote:It was nice that the foot handlers decided to allow horse back handling strictly as a means of conveyance, so the pro's or people with several dogs wouldn't have to walk all day but you can see where the oft repeated saying "all good deeds will never go unpunished" comes from. The inmates want to rule the asylum.

People read the rules and then come back and disguss how unfair it is.

Ezzy
Where did you get that from? Provide facts... "inmates" really Ezzy...I m with bigsugar, if I enter a horseback trial, I m on horseback and working to show MY dog for the judges...period...if u r on foot, good luck but I m not changing the way I handle for you...period. And don't grip about it. U entered a horseback trial knowing the facts.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:16 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:It was nice that the foot handlers decided to allow horse back handling strictly as a means of conveyance, so the pro's or people with several dogs wouldn't have to walk all day but you can see where the oft repeated saying "all good deeds will never go unpunished" comes from. The inmates want to rule the asylum.

People read the rules and then come back and disguss how unfair it is.

Ezzy
Where did you get that from? Provide facts... "inmates" really Ezzy...I m with bigsugar, if I enter a horseback trial, I m on horseback and working to show MY dog for the judges...period...if u r on foot, good luck but I m not changing the way I handle for you...period. And don't grip about it. U entered a horseback trial knowing the facts.
That isn't what I said or even indicated. The rules cover how everyone whether afootor a horseback is to handle their dogs and it isn't up to either of us to change those.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by trueblu » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Now, that's just not nice at all. We are supposed to make everyone feel welcome so if one person hates horses then we should all walk. C'mon can't we just be friends. I love you, you love me, we're a happy family, with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you love me too".

Just kidding, I'm smoking the foot handler the minute I get the chance. But, I will love them always!!

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by birddogger » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:29 pm

Don't give up on trials. Just play the right game for you. If you choose to walk then hit the walking trials. We have them out here often. Just like next month is an all walking trial. Even the open is a walking trial.

Good Luck,

Joe
Now this is what makes the most sense to me. I would never walk in a HB trial. I just wouldn't feel comfortable, would not want to hinder other compeitors, would not want to work harder and be at that much of a disadvantage, etc. If I wanted to trial, there are enough venues out there that I could find one that fits my and my dogs' style. But that's just me, I have nothing against somebody who chooses to walk vs' riding, I would just think it would be a pain for everybody and would be very difficult to place a dog, given the nature of the venue. I can't speak from experience but I am guessing it has little to do with bias, although there probably is some with certain judges, as there is with almost anything. JMO

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:35 pm

birddogger wrote:
Don't give up on trials. Just play the right game for you. If you choose to walk then hit the walking trials. We have them out here often. Just like next month is an all walking trial. Even the open is a walking trial.

Good Luck,

Joe
Now this is what makes the most sense to me. I would never walk in a HB trial. I just wouldn't feel comfortable, would not want to hinder other compeitors, would not want to work harder and be at that much of a disadvantage, etc. If I wanted to trial, there are enough venues out there that I could find one that fits my and my dogs' style. But that's just me, I have nothing against somebody who chooses to walk vs' riding, I would just think it would be a pain for everybody and would be very difficult to place a dog, given the nature of the venue. I can't speak from experience but I am guessing it has little to do with bias, although there probably is some with certain judges, as there is with almost anything. JMO

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Sharon » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:27 pm

trueblu wrote:Now, that's just not nice at all. We are supposed to make everyone feel welcome so if one person hates horses then we should all walk. C'mon can't we just be friends. I love you, you love me, we're a happy family, with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you love me too".

Just kidding, I'm smoking the foot handler the minute I get the chance. But, I will love them always!!

Lol Exactly, and so should you.
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by tommyboy72 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:51 pm

Sounds like a lot of the effort to covenience people is in order to convenience the judges. If you are judging a walking trial then walk, a HB trial then ride. You don't see NFL referees out there riding a Segway up and down the field, they run, jog, and walk just like the competitors. I guess that is what happens when you allow judges to legislate the rules instead of just judging the handlers and their dogs and interpreting the rules.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by slistoe » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:30 am

Anybody going to believe it if I said I entered a HB trial but chose to walk and the judges admonished me to keep to a reasonable pace? True story.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by PntrRookie » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:36 am

slistoe wrote:Anybody going to believe it if I said I entered a HB trial but chose to walk and the judges admonished me to keep to a reasonable pace? True story.
Sure I believe you, because it is their job to set the pace. If they want you to get going or slow down, they better tell you. Either way I am glad to hear that they stepped up and did their job. I recently ran in a HB stake and was braced with another HB handler and he rode hard to the front and wide to find and move his dog. IMO the judges should have stepped up and said either to me, to get going, or to him to get back n course and keep the pace. It is up to the judges to set the pace.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:16 am

I would believe it. When you go to a trial and it has both walking and HB it is two different courses even on the same course. The size of the course expected is different due to the amount of ground you can cover horseback. The distance that you can cover on horseback in 30 minutes is much greater than what you cover on foot.

You are at a huge disadvantage on foot. The two I chose to walk were puppy events and I went in knowing it was more for training. I had absolutely no expectations of being placed, and my bracemates were aware and fine with it. I also wrote on my entry that I chose to walk those events in the hopes that maybe there was another that chose to walk and they would brace us together. Now I am a big guy. I am a 6'6" 300lb stack of chewed bubble gum. I am not the best rider, nor do I particularly like to ride. I just feel making a horse carry me for 30 minutes borders on abuse. The good thing is it will have a much harder time trying to throw me than most of you smaller scrappier guys, but it is the name of the game. I will continue to ride these events and show my dog. I always do both the walking and riding.

I think that to continue to have trials we all have to show some respect for our fellow trialers, but this also means that if you choose to walk you have to consider what you are possibly putting you bracemate through. In both trials I ran, if my bracemate would have said it was an issue, I would have grabbed a horse. We all pay our money at these events. We put in our time and efforts the same. I personally don't want to hold up anyone nor cause a dog to not show it's full potential.

As for the two I speak of, in both cases, our bracemate took first and second. My walking didn't hinder any results for the competition. The bracemate even stayed with us and never seperated. I know these really don't compare, they were just puppy events. My point is that if you choose to walk in what is a HB event, then you need to expect in some cases to get some back lash. it was stated before, that if you continue to walk, you will start to see some resistance in the future. Just don't know if it is really what you will want to have your name associated with being a problem. I know that i wouldn't want to show up at an event and have people hoping not to be braced with me.

Check the AF events also, I am going to one on Feb 4th. It is walking on Sat and HB on Sunday. You can find the events all over. You will be much happier and enjoy the trials more if you work on the walking trials. You will even make more friends.


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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by doco » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:30 am

tommyboy72 wrote:Sounds like a lot of the effort to covenience people is in order to convenience the judges. If you are judging a walking trial then walk, a HB trial then ride. I guess that is what happens when you allow judges to legislate the rules instead of just judging the handlers and their dogs and interpreting the rules.
Now I know why there are so many willing Judges out there. It's because you should have to walk for 2 -3 days non-stop, you get a free dinner, all the water and coffee you can drink, maybe a dog leash or a $25 Gift Card, maybe 2 or 3 handshakes, and all the appreciation from the rest of the of the non placing handlers.

It would probably work out better that way. I usually miss the free dinner because we run til dark and I feel it necessary to care for my horses and dogs. They worked harder than I did and deserve to be fed and kept warm.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by slistoe » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:34 am

jcbuttry8 wrote:I would believe it. When you go to a trial and it has both walking and HB it is two different courses even on the same course. The size of the course expected is different due to the amount of ground you can cover horseback. The distance that you can cover on horseback in 30 minutes is much greater than what you cover on foot.
I don't know if you understand the story - it wasn't really clear. I was the walking handler, the other fellow mounted. I was asked to slow down to a reasonable pace. I was walking - not running.
Now it may be different where you are, but there has never been an expectation of a different course for walkers vs riders in the same stake around here.
I ran GPS on the courses for the whole of one season. The 1/2 hour HB courses averaged 2.3 miles in length. The 1/2 hour Walking courses averaged 2.1 miles in length. Some handlers in both venues couldn't finish the course, others ran out of course.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Chief_dog » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:47 pm

trueblu wrote:Now, that's just not nice at all. We are supposed to make everyone feel welcome so if one person hates horses then we should all walk. C'mon can't we just be friends. I love you, you love me, we're a happy family, with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you love me too".

Just kidding, I'm smoking the foot handler the minute I get the chance. But, I will love them always!!
LOL. You crack me up Blake. Even in a walking stake, I am going to separate from the other handler the minute I get the chance. It's a competition, and you gotta do what you gotta do.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:20 pm

slistoe wrote:
jcbuttry8 wrote:I would believe it. When you go to a trial and it has both walking and HB it is two different courses even on the same course. The size of the course expected is different due to the amount of ground you can cover horseback. The distance that you can cover on horseback in 30 minutes is much greater than what you cover on foot.
I don't know if you understand the story - it wasn't really clear. I was the walking handler, the other fellow mounted. I was asked to slow down to a reasonable pace. I was walking - not running.
Now it may be different where you are, but there has never been an expectation of a different course for walkers vs riders in the same stake around here.
I ran GPS on the courses for the whole of one season. The 1/2 hour HB courses averaged 2.3 miles in length. The 1/2 hour Walking courses averaged 2.1 miles in length. Some handlers in both venues couldn't finish the course, others ran out of course.
Now I got it. Seems a little strange. What I meant by my comment was that the pace can be much faster.

Now as for the judges and horses, I have to go with Doc. These guys, the few that actually come and judge work their a$$es off all day, rarely see much appreciation, are accused of being biased or placing dogs that didn't deserve it, catch heck for not making it right back to the line quick enough for the next brace. I think that covers most of it. Oh, last one, given a little heck when they want to actually run their own dog instead of judging the next event. Now, I think we got them all. The least we can do is give them a horse to work off of. This also gives them a better ability to see the dogs work at a distance.

I used to coach pop warner football when my son was younger and I used to get fathers all the time come up and complain about a play call or " If you would have had my son in ........" I would tell them all the time, We will be accepting coaching applications next year and would love for you to come out. Think the same applies here. Maybe more should step up and judge. I'm sure some of these judges would love to have a break and see others do a little judging.

Joe

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:17 am

doco wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Sounds like a lot of the effort to covenience people is in order to convenience the judges. If you are judging a walking trial then walk, a HB trial then ride. I guess that is what happens when you allow judges to legislate the rules instead of just judging the handlers and their dogs and interpreting the rules.
Now I know why there are so many willing Judges out there. It's because you should have to walk for 2 -3 days non-stop, you get a free dinner, all the water and coffee you can drink, maybe a dog leash or a $25 Gift Card, maybe 2 or 3 handshakes, and all the appreciation from the rest of the of the non placing handlers.

It would probably work out better that way. I usually miss the free dinner because we run til dark and I feel it necessary to care for my horses and dogs. They worked harder than I did and deserve to be fed and kept warm.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.
If the work is too much then don't judge but don't make the competitors adhere to rules and regulations that convenience you as a judge. Perhaps NFL and NCAA football referees ,which are judges, should stop working out like they do since they are in their 50's and 60's and just make all the players play at their pace since it would be more convenient for the judges.

I never stated judges of a AA trial should walk. I stated judges of a walking stake should walk just like the competitors and AA judges should ride just like the competitors. I thought these events were about the dogs and the handlers and owners of these dogs getting out and enjoying a sporting event with their dogs not about adhering to a bunch of rules that don't really seem to apply to the event they are running, guess I was wrong. It is more about professionals training and handling dogs to a placement so that they can sell pups and peddle their training skills based on the performance of the dogs.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:25 am

tommyboy72 wrote:
doco wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Sounds like a lot of the effort to covenience people is in order to convenience the judges. If you are judging a walking trial then walk, a HB trial then ride. I guess that is what happens when you allow judges to legislate the rules instead of just judging the handlers and their dogs and interpreting the rules.
Now I know why there are so many willing Judges out there. It's because you should have to walk for 2 -3 days non-stop, you get a free dinner, all the water and coffee you can drink, maybe a dog leash or a $25 Gift Card, maybe 2 or 3 handshakes, and all the appreciation from the rest of the of the non placing handlers.

It would probably work out better that way. I usually miss the free dinner because we run til dark and I feel it necessary to care for my horses and dogs. They worked harder than I did and deserve to be fed and kept warm.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.
If the work is too much then don't judge but don't make the competitors adhere to rules and regulations that convenience you as a judge. Perhaps NFL and NCAA football referees ,which are judges, should stop working out like they do since they are in their 50's and 60's and just make all the players play at their pace since it would be more convenient for the judges.

I never stated judges of a AA trial should walk. I stated judges of a walking stake should walk just like the competitors and AA judges should ride just like the competitors. I thought these events were about the dogs and the handlers and owners of these dogs getting out and enjoying a sporting event with their dogs not about adhering to a bunch of rules that don't really seem to apply to the event they are running, guess I was wrong. It is more about professionals training and handling dogs to a placement so that they can sell pups and peddle their training skills based on the performance of the dogs.
Since you start most of your posts with, I don't field trial but, why are you commenting on something you know admittingly nothing about?

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:30 am

Tommy with all due respect what are you going on and on about?!? How in the world is it a bad thing for a judge to ride while the handler walks?? What your saying makes no sense...

O and I have judged walking trials and horseback, how about you....
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ultracarry » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:30 am

What better way to know what your doing wrong then to ask someone who doesn't have a clue....

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by LincolnAlexander » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:31 am

tommyboy72 wrote:Perhaps NFL and NCAA football referees ,which are judges, should stop working out like they do since they are in their 50's and 60's and just make all the players play at their pace since it would be more convenient for the judges.
NFL & NCAA football referees get paid correct? The judges for Field events are essentially volunteering their time for very little... bit of a difference. I appreciate the effort judges put into events, without them and their volunteered time, where would we be?
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by tommyboy72 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:02 am

"Since you start most of your posts with, I don't field trial but, why are you commenting on something you know admittingly nothing about?"

First off Vagas I have just as much right to post on here as you. You post all the time on things you know nothing about and you seem to take particular pleasure in antagonizing me, probably because you live so far from me. :evil: Secondly sometimes the best way of getting a fresh perspective on the way things are percieved is to have an outside opinion on the way things look to someone who has limited experience with a subject. Thirdly I understand that NFL refs are paid and your judges are volunteers. I simply stated that if you did not like what you were volunteering for then don't volunteer or you could just change the rules so they fit your idea of how they should be. Maybe I will go volunteer at the church tomorrow to fix a meal for the homeless but only if the cook the food I think they should cook, prepare it the way I think it should be prepared, and serve it on the dishes I think it should be served on. Perhaps judges should be allowed to use electric side by sides to help cut down on the cost of their volunteer efforts. No horses, no feed, no boarding costs, no horse trailers, that would make it a lot more convenient. I guess I will go back to shutting my mouth and not posting now since Vagas Mathison has spoken and I am sure this post will be deleted just like all the posts where him and I have conversation and I will be waiting for my administative PM warning me not to upset Vagas anymore just like usual.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:29 am

tommyboy72 wrote:
doco wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:Sounds like a lot of the effort to covenience people is in order to convenience the judges. If you are judging a walking trial then walk, a HB trial then ride. I guess that is what happens when you allow judges to legislate the rules instead of just judging the handlers and their dogs and interpreting the rules.
Now I know why there are so many willing Judges out there. It's because you should have to walk for 2 -3 days non-stop, you get a free dinner, all the water and coffee you can drink, maybe a dog leash or a $25 Gift Card, maybe 2 or 3 handshakes, and all the appreciation from the rest of the of the non placing handlers.

It would probably work out better that way. I usually miss the free dinner because we run til dark and I feel it necessary to care for my horses and dogs. They worked harder than I did and deserve to be fed and kept warm.

Thanks for the kind thoughts.
If the work is too much then don't judge but don't make the competitors adhere to rules and regulations that convenience you as a judge. Perhaps NFL and NCAA football referees ,which are judges, should stop working out like they do since they are in their 50's and 60's and just make all the players play at their pace since it would be more convenient for the judges.

I never stated judges of a AA trial should walk. I stated judges of a walking stake should walk just like the competitors and AA judges should ride just like the competitors. I thought these events were about the dogs and the handlers and owners of these dogs getting out and enjoying a sporting event with their dogs not about adhering to a bunch of rules that don't really seem to apply to the event they are running, guess I was wrong. It is more about professionals training and handling dogs to a placement so that they can sell pups and peddle their training skills based on the performance of the dogs.
Good thing is neither the judges or the people who don't participate set the rules. The rules are in place in trials just like every place else to set a level playing field for everyone.

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Buckeye_V » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:34 am

Let me quote a few words for you from the "book" Chew on them a bit.

"Judges discretion" "Judges decision is final."

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:38 am

tommyboy72 wrote:"Since you start most of your posts with, I don't field trial but, why are you commenting on something you know admittingly nothing about?"

First off Vagas I have just as much right to post on here as you. You post all the time on things you know nothing about and you seem to take particular pleasure in antagonizing me, probably because you live so far from me. :evil: Secondly sometimes the best way of getting a fresh perspective on the way things are percieved is to have an outside opinion on the way things look to someone who has limited experience with a subject. Thirdly I understand that NFL refs are paid and your judges are volunteers. I simply stated that if you did not like what you were volunteering for then don't volunteer or you could just change the rules so they fit your idea of how they should be. Maybe I will go volunteer at the church tomorrow to fix a meal for the homeless but only if the cook the food I think they should cook, prepare it the way I think it should be prepared, and serve it on the dishes I think it should be served on. Perhaps judges should be allowed to use electric side by sides to help cut down on the cost of their volunteer efforts. No horses, no feed, no boarding costs, no horse trailers, that would make it a lot more convenient. I guess I will go back to shutting my mouth and not posting now since Vagas Mathison has spoken and I am sure this post will be deleted just like all the posts where him and I have conversation and I will be waiting for my administative PM warning me not to upset Vagas anymore just like usual.
You don't upset me man. You crack me up. If I had that thin of skin that some guy i've never met, that chimes in from time to time bugged me, I'd have a long life ahead of me. Your analogies are hilarious. I have no idea why the distance of which I live from you would matter one bit. Anyway.

jcbuttry, I think you hit the nail right on the head. If you had a dog that wouldn't go because the horses, you did the right thing, 100%. Talked with the other handler, etc.....

This topic brought something to mind. The oppisite of this happend a pretty much ruined the NBHA. It obviously gave the handler quite the advantage. Opinions?

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by topher40 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:46 am

Tommyboy-

Again spoken like someone that has never trialed and still has an opinion. You have right to post, although with limited knowledge only coming from what you read on the INTERNET or heard someone else say your right is an exercise in futility. Easy to armchair quarterback when you haven't ever been in the game and that doesn't add any credibility to your arguments.
Electric side by sides also have TONS of expense, insurance, taxes, cost of charging, trailer to haul it, not to mention the initial cost! Do they even make an electric side by side? Even if they do, they couldn't get around most trial grounds. Educate yourself, go to some trials, do some winning, then people will listen. Until then your opinion is about as valid as the BHO's on economics! :roll:
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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by ymepointer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:54 am

I would think the handler would hope for any advantage they could get, so I don't see why the horseback handler would gripe about the walking handler. I think I would prefer the extra benefit of being able to see better and get to my dog faster :D

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Re: Bias against walking handled dogs

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:58 am

Here is my problem... it seems like every thread that gets started on this forum turns into someone without any experience telling people with experience how to fix problems that arent problems!!!! Are trials perfect? No! So what its what some of us enjoy. I don't get whats so hard about that!! I hunt, I trial and by god I have a good time doing both. I possibly enjoy trialing more because of the social aspect of it and I enjoy riding horses aswell.

I just dont get why those that dont know or understand trialing can't try to learn about it instead of making assumptions and always trying to "fix" it!!!

My point is sit back and listen first, there is alot that could be learned on this site if people would just try to learn for one minute....

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