Bias against walking handled dogs

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:14 pm

topher40 wrote:Tommyboy-

Again spoken like someone that has never trialed and still has an opinion. You have right to post, although with limited knowledge only coming from what you read on the INTERNET or heard someone else say your right is an exercise in futility. Easy to armchair quarterback when you haven't ever been in the game and that doesn't add any credibility to your arguments.
Electric side by sides also have TONS of expense, insurance, taxes, cost of charging, trailer to haul it, not to mention the initial cost! Do they even make an electric side by side? Even if they do, they couldn't get around most trial grounds. Educate yourself, go to some trials, do some winning, then people will listen. Until then your opinion is about as valid as the BHO's on economics! :roll:

Yes they do make electric side by sides. They term them UTV's. This is just a few of the many manufacturers. Here are some links. If you do the math I am sure the overhead costs are much cheaper than that of owning a horse. You have to have a trailer to haul horses anyway so trailer expense is pretty much null and void. The thing is I would really like to go to some trials just to spectate but have been told by competitors who have invited me that I would need a horse just to spectate in the gallery, either my own or a rented horse, much less to actually compete. It isn't like I haven't checked into it or just read something on the internet. I have spoken with credible competitors who are friends of mine and this is the information I have been given. Just saying if you didn't expect everyone to ride you might be able to get more people interested in the sport but I am sure this is not what "the good ole boy club" really wants. Have a nice day.

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Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:20 pm

Robbie, the topic being discussed is about the bias of trialers against trialers. I agree that some posts are off topic and by people who have no experience in the game and that adds very little to the subject especially when the facts are ignored. But as a whole we have a lot more trialers telling hunters what kind of dog they need, what kind of birds they need, and what training they need than the other way around. Just seems to be human nature to think everyone would be better off if they did things like we do.

Ezzy

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:27 pm

trueblu wrote:I've judged some dogs that were "walked" at horseback trials and have tended to be more impressed with those dogs when they hang on the edges, have speed, stamina, and show just how broke they are when a limb find occurs and it takes the handler a long time to walk to the dog. But, from what I have seen, so many walking handlers at horseback trials are like you, they don't care to ride, which is fine. However, the main area of inconsistency is that so many dogs that are not trained from horseback, tend to be in near shock when the horses are around, and/or these dogs often tend to yo yo back to the handler not having the confidence of most horse handled/trained dogs to go find birds, hit edges and objectives, AND key off the horses direction/heads.

Further, let's face it, horse handled/trained dogs tend to be pushed by their handlers, by their scouts, have been pushed their whole lives, are hunted from trucks and 4 wheelers, and it's about all they know. They tend to be faster, more independent, run bigger, faster, etc etc. NOTHING against your dogs at all. But, if you didn't ride every brace and/or walk, see all braces, it's hard to judge if your dog was the equal of any others. Further, to be able to judge this type of event, you do really need to have the experience of seeing a ton of braces at horseback events. Where the rules clearly state that judges are looking for "effective foot hunting companions", the definition of a foot hunting companion is greatly skewed to..."an effective screaming hard charging wide ranging speed demon who happens on a few birds and points them with great style and manners then screams until the brace has ended, and then some". If the second fake quote happens in a trial I judge AND the handler is on FOOT then I'm loving the walking dog I am judging.

I totally agree with this post. +1

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:29 pm

Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. You could walk in a HB stake to, I mean run. As long as you dont impeded the process of the trial no one cares. I, as of many other people have extra horses that are ALWAYS being offered to folks that will ride. I started out in walking stakes and I have ridden thousands of braces of the years and havent had my own horse till about 4 years ago. It can be done, it is being done, and will continue to be done by folks without a horse. Another comment made with no first hand personal knowledge, on the other hand I have the first hand experience to back it up. Talk about what you know, and learn what you dont.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:39 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:
topher40 wrote:Tommyboy-

Again spoken like someone that has never trialed and still has an opinion. You have right to post, although with limited knowledge only coming from what you read on the INTERNET or heard someone else say your right is an exercise in futility. Easy to armchair quarterback when you haven't ever been in the game and that doesn't add any credibility to your arguments.
Electric side by sides also have TONS of expense, insurance, taxes, cost of charging, trailer to haul it, not to mention the initial cost! Do they even make an electric side by side? Even if they do, they couldn't get around most trial grounds. Educate yourself, go to some trials, do some winning, then people will listen. Until then your opinion is about as valid as the BHO's on economics! :roll:
Yes they do make electric side by sides. They term them UTV's. This is just a few of the many manufacturers. Here are some links. If you do the math I am sure the overhead costs are much cheaper than that of owning a horse. You have to have a trailer to haul horses anyway so trailer expense is pretty much null and void. The thing is I would really like to go to some trials just to spectate but have been told by competitors who have invited me that I would need a horse just to spectate in the gallery, either my own or a rented horse, much less to actually compete. It isn't like I haven't checked into it or just read something on the internet. I have spoken with credible competitors who are friends of mine and this is the information I have been given. Just saying if you didn't expect everyone to ride you might be able to get more people interested in the sport but I am sure this is not what "the good ole boy club" really wants. Have a nice day.

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You can come to our trial. We have horses. Mine, my trainer's, and one of the judges is bringing spares. It doesn't cost anything to ride one. The trial itself is an AKC walking trial, but if you have a dog that you would like to enter, FDSB is acceptable and if you place, I'll cover the cross registration. If you have a dog under two years old, enter a Derby stake and you'll get to compete against a show dog and the son of a GSPCA NC. You have to pay for lunch, like everyone else, but dinner is free. You can meet people from all over the spectrum of dogs, but it won't be a "good ole boy club," because the members of our club are mostly ladies with show dogs. Yes, it's a drive, but I'll send you a gas card. One of the judges is from Amarillo and has been instrumental in building trials in that part of the country.

Seriously, the sport needs support. If you want to come, you're welcome.

doco · Post by **doco** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:35 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:How in the world is it a bad thing for a judge to ride while the handler walks?? What your saying makes no sense.....

+10

ElhewPointer wrote:You don't upset me man. You crack me up. If I had that thin of skin that some guy i've never met, that chimes in from time to time bugged me, I'd have a long life ahead of me. Your analogies are hilarious. I have no idea why the distance of which I live from you would matter one bit. Anyway.

tommyboy72 wrote:If the work is too much then don't judge but don't make the competitors adhere to rules and regulations that convenience you as a judge. Perhaps NFL and NCAA football referees ,which are judges, should stop working out like they do since they are in their 50's and 60's and just make all the players play at their pace since it would be more convenient for the judges.

I never stated judges of a AA trial should walk. I stated judges of a walking stake should walk just like the competitors and AA judges should ride just like the competitors. I thought these events were about the dogs and the handlers and owners of these dogs getting out and enjoying a sporting event with their dogs not about adhering to a bunch of rules that don't really seem to apply to the event they are running, guess I was wrong. It is more about professionals training and handling dogs to a placement so that they can sell pups and peddle their training skills based on the performance of the dogs.

That's the kind of love us judges like to hear, I'm getting that warm fuzzy feeling. :roll: :roll:

On the professional end, I'm sure that you mean to sell pups to folks that can brag that their dogs that are out of "Championship Bloodlines" without having any knowledge of what it takes to create those "Championship Bloodlines". I saw some "Champions" in the pedigrees of your dogs. I even think that I saw you braggin up that one of your dogs was from one of the "Champions" in the description. Yeah that Lester guy probably just got lucky with that Snowwatch dog. You probably could have gotten a better price if you bought a dog that didn't come from proven stock.

ezzy333 wrote: But as a whole we have a lot more trialers telling hunters what kind of dog they need, what kind of birds they need, and what training they need than the other way around. Just seems to be human nature to think everyone would be better off if they did things like we do.

Ezzy

I don't know Ez, I think that this statement is a little bit over the top. I know it's a little off topic but WTH. Someone has to title dogs to prove or establish that they are what they are. The "Rules" and titles are in place so that Joe Garage Breeder doesn't sell Miss Sally the Wannabe Hunter (NO OFFENSE LADIES) a dog that is barely worth feeding, let alone a biter or gunshy. There are probably just as many Champions sitting on couches that have never seen a bird or the woods. They just never had the opportunity to prove themselves. Just like the hunters that have dogs that are of Championship caliber that have never had the opportunity to be in a trial. All untapped potential and only ifs. Until a dog is titled, we have no proof of what it really is other than heresay or because "Me and My Friends" said so. The average hunter is lucky to have three or four bird dogs in their lifetime. The trialer or the pro has many more dogs and has much more training experience. I also think that they answer questions or try to give good advice based on their experience. One must remember though, advice is only good if we want to hear it. And we all know what opinions are like

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:52 pm

Well said Doco!

On a different note it was mentioned earlier that some people need a leg up on the competition. Is it wrong to want run against the best dogs in the stake. Haveing a good dog on the ground to beat is much better than a trotting show dog. If I'm braced against a handler and I say good luck I would hope they know I'm genuine and wouldn't do anything on purpose to get a leg up. I want the best competition that I can get because winning or placing with dogs that aren't good doesn't say much. I have a friend and have told him more then once that I get a knot in my stomach when I see his dogs in the running order. When they beat me or vice versa its a good day and you learn something new every time you go out. It's all about having fun, good friends, new people, good food and if your lucky good whiskey.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:24 pm

topher40 wrote:Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. You could walk in a HB stake to, I mean run. As long as you dont impeded the process of the trial no one cares. I, as of many other people have extra horses that are ALWAYS being offered to folks that will ride. I started out in walking stakes and I have ridden thousands of braces of the years and havent had my own horse till about 4 years ago. It can be done, it is being done, and will continue to be done by folks without a horse. Another comment made with no first hand personal knowledge, on the other hand I have the first hand experience to back it up. Talk about what you know, and learn what you dont.

This is good to know that people actually do this. Before I even had a pointing dog, about 5 years ago, my husband and I attempted to watch a local walking trial. We met some guys at the field entrance, just a couple minutes before the brace. They laughed when we asked if we could walk, and said yeah if we could keep up. Figured it was a lost cause then, and being we didn't even have a dog yet, we packed up and left. I'd like to walk a few to watch, learn, see if it's something I'm even interested in, and shoot some photos. Guessing I'll still be odd man out in doing so, but maybe I'll give it a try again. I've had horses all my life, and know how to ride, but I don't care to ride other folks horses. I'm horseless at the moment, for the first time ever, and not sure if I even care to fix that.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:33 pm

ultracarry wrote:Well said Doco!

On a different note it was mentioned earlier that some people need a leg up on the competition. Is it wrong to want run against the best dogs in the stake. Haveing a good dog on the ground to beat is much better than a trotting show dog. If I'm braced against a handler and I say good luck I would hope they know I'm genuine and wouldn't do anything on purpose to get a leg up. I want the best competition that I can get because winning or placing with dogs that aren't good doesn't say much. I have a friend and have told him more then once that I get a knot in my stomach when I see his dogs in the running order. When they beat me or vice versa its a good day and you learn something new every time you go out. It's all about having fun, good friends, new people, good food and if your lucky good whiskey.

+1

Doug

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 pm

wems2371 wrote:Guessing I'll still be odd man out in doing so, but maybe I'll give it a try again. I've had horses all my life, and know how to ride, but I don't care to ride other folks horses. I'm horseless at the moment, for the first time ever, and not sure if I even care to fix that.

Wems-
don't be to proud, scared, or to good to ride someone else's horse. This is the only way your going to learn, other than walking and riding is much easier. I havent had (to many) problems with field trial horses when someone offers a mount. Only ones I have had a problem with the owners told me they were a horse to watch out for so I know what I was getting into. Usually to the newbies the slowest gentlest horses are offered. Like my old gelding that my year old rides, he is the first horse offered to ANYONE that needs a ride.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote: But as a whole we have a lot more trialers telling hunters what kind of dog they need, what kind of birds they need, and what training they need than the other way around.
Ezzy

You must be reading a different discussion than I am.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:49 pm

topher40 wrote:
wems2371 wrote:Guessing I'll still be odd man out in doing so, but maybe I'll give it a try again. I've had horses all my life, and know how to ride, but I don't care to ride other folks horses. I'm horseless at the moment, for the first time ever, and not sure if I even care to fix that.

Wems-
don't be to proud, scared, or to good to ride someone else's horse. This is the only way your going to learn, other than walking and riding is much easier. I havent had (to many) problems with field trial horses when someone offers a mount. Only ones I have had a problem with the owners told me they were a horse to watch out for so I know what I was getting into. Usually to the newbies the slowest gentlest horses are offered. Like my old gelding that my year old rides, he is the first horse offered to ANYONE that needs a ride.

Well I'm certainly not too proud or too good to do anything--I dig ditches for a living, literally.

I'm sure there are many more great safe mounts out there, than not, but at this point I'm more willing to walk. Maybe if you offered me your gelding I'd change my mind.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:58 pm

If the guys running their dogs are walking I certainly can't imagine what would keep anyone from walking in the gallery and keeping up. You say it was a Walking Trial wasn't it? It is unfortunate you met a joker at the gate.

Whenever I entered a Walking Trial I walked every single brace except the ones just prior to my dogs running. Heck, what can be wrong with 6 or 7 hours of 4+ mph in a day

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:57 pm

Walking trial this weekend would be 6+ hours for amature gun dog and 5-6 for open gun dog. A whole lotta walking to be done for some of the guys that want to go in southern California. Not to mention there's going to be some really good food.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:26 pm

Wems I walked at the Gateway Trial last year, and it was'nt to bad ; I don't think you will have any trouble keeping up, after all it is a walking trial.
And I learned something also, the Judges even answered some questions for me.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:17 pm

All of this is nothing more or less than what you make it. Nobody has to change the game or their approach for you. If I choose to get off and walk an amateur or juvenile stake with a new person to make them more comfortable, that's up to me. .. ( a championship stake or an open i need...you are probably on your own) and of course it is better to have judges on horseback, the sight advantage alone is reason enough. Add to that of course the ridiculous level of exhaustion that would hit many of them walking six or seven hours....is that really an argument?

The legitimate complaint in field trials is those who complain. I like to win...but I intend to win the way I want to...this little habit is not curing incur able diseases, feeding my family, paying for college, or reversing the aging process.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:42 pm

Thanks Casey I appreciate the invite and would love to come over and attend just to experience what a trial is all about.

Topher once again you choose to glean from my comments what you want. For what it is worth I will explain this to you very slowly so you can understand it better. I do have experience because that is what I was told to my face by those competing in the event I wanted to go watch. Flat out I don't like horses. I am not afraid of them and grew up my entire life with my family owning, breeding, and raising horses on a small scale out of well known QH bloodlines. I learned to ride at an early age and grew out of it as I matured. Flat out I do not like horses the same way some people don't like baggy pants or hats turned sideways on a persons head or loud music blaring out of a car. No particular reason I just do not like them.

Doco I have nothing against trialers and they have fantastic dogs. Once again someone on this forum has chosen to take part of what I typed and misinterpreted it to mean something totally different. I never said I disliked trialers or trial dogs. Now I see why many of the people that I know who are winning and very successful trialers, much more successful than most of the board members will ever be, will not even venture to post on this board. Too cliquee they say. Hmmmm wonder where they got that idea. Also, the pup I have out of a son of Lesters Snowwatch was given to me free from a member of this board for helping them with an issue they had. Thanks again Mark. Perhaps you and topher and Ezzy should pull all your heads out of Vagas' you know what and it might be a bit easier to understand me.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:51 pm

Tommy, you can ride the dog wagon if you'd like to come and don't wish to horseback it. The offer stands, dinner is pot roast, mac & cheese, and God knows what else, but you won't have to worry about an attack of vegans.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:09 pm

Tom you have been told somethings that are both correct and incorrect.

Let me clarify.

You can walk at a horseback trial if you want. You will not see anything at all if you do. You'll be so far behind in a matter of minutes that it would be pointless. You will only be able to keep up on a horse.

In a walking trial you can walk and watch the dogs and you can see for the most part exactly what the handler sees. It wouldn't be much fun in my opinion.

As far as riding atvs or the like Chris is right in saying that you wouldn't be able to get through most courses on an atv or utv. The crossings on some courses are only cow trails through the creek. If you want to go you can make it happen. If you don't then that's ok too. Trialing isn't for everyone.

AN

Post by **topher40** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:35 pm

Tommy-
Like a wise man once told me, "You can change a mans perception but you cant ever change one's belief". Believe what you want with your extensive experience and your friends opinions that are to accomplished to post on the net. I will bow out of any further conversation since I am tired of beating my head against the proverbial wall. :roll: (Pullling my head out, hope you feel better now Vagas. My one true man crush!

)

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:57 am

Tommy, I actually thought you were kidding when you said that judges should walk in walking trials. I assumed you were kidding as it made no sense whatsoever and I assumed you were an active trialer who doubled as a marathon runner. Be realistic, in our part of the US, each brace covers 3 plus miles, judge all day in even one stake, large gun dog stake for example, 15 braces, 30 minutes each, 45 miles of walking AND be expected to judge the dogs. 99% of all of us would have stroked out about brace 4. Judges have to not just ride along down the horsepath, but in nearly every brace we have to be able to traverse the course to ride to finds, see great moves, etc. etc. So, realistically, we may ride 50 miles in a day if we ride aggressively at all.

Ezzy, the argument has been made for years and years, as long as the internet was around, that trialers are telling people they must buy our pups, that only trial bred dogs can be hunting dogs, that our game is the best, etc. etc. It flat is NOT true!! Truth is...non-trialers, ones who have never ridden a brace, even been on the grounds of a trial, love to tell us that our dogs are run-offs, aren't birddogs, that we bred greyhounds, mindless idiots that are only good for winning ribbons. When we make the point that we do hunt our dogs on wild birds every year, that our trial idiots do actually handle, are house pets, etc. we are called liars. This all coming from those who do not know us or our dogs. I have never seen a single post where a trialer told anyone what they must do. I have seen a lot of attacks on these sites, ALL by non-trialers with uneducated uninformed opinions about trialing!! I've asked these folks, remember our buddy from Indiana, if he had ever even ridden a brace. Answer was, "I don't owe you an explanation". Translation, "I'm speaking out my rear and don't have clue one". Even tried to get him to meet me and hunt against my dogs, and he then claimed I was afraid of HIS bet.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:09 am

trueblu wrote: each brace covers 3 plus miles,

Have you clocked that with GPS? That means walking faster than 6 mph.
Even the National Amateur Chicken Championship on the prairie in Sask. ran 5 miles on a one hour course. General travel speed with the horses was 6 1/4 mph.

But yeah, it is ridiculous to assume that you would find enough folks who are fit enough to walk every brace as a judge.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:12 am

trueblu wrote: Ezzy, the argument has been made for years and years, as long as the internet was around, that trialers are telling people they must buy our pups, that only trial bred dogs can be hunting dogs, that our game is the best, etc. etc. It flat is NOT true!! Truth is...non-trialers, ones who have never ridden a brace, even been on the grounds of a trial, love to tell us that our dogs are run-offs, aren't birddogs, that we bred greyhounds, mindless idiots that are only good for winning ribbons. When we make the point that we do hunt our dogs on wild birds every year, that our trial idiots do actually handle, are house pets, etc. we are called liars.

Good luck trying to get Ezzy to admit that one.
The only ones talking smack on these forums are the anti-trialer hunters. When someone who hunts with trial quality dogs defends what they do they are accused of talking every one else down.
BS.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:30 am

May have exaggerated a little, however, at the gym I know I walk at 3.8-4.2 mph for 30 minutes, and I feel like I'm headed for a massive heart attack. So, on foot, riding hard, chasing shooting dogs, I would say that pace is realistic, so 3 miles per brace seems pretty close. But, again, even if it's 2 miles per hour and 15 braces, it's 30 miles.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:54 am

The point is no one can walk at the required pace and still be in a position to see what is happening with the dogs while doing it for an hour or a day.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:31 am

ezzy333 wrote:The point is no one can walk at the required pace and still be in a position to see what is happening with the dogs while doing it for an hour or a day.

Ezzy

I have and might again. But then some folks claimed they rode the gallery just so they could watch me walk.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:36 am

slistoe wrote: The only ones talking smack on these forums are the anti-trialer hunters.

The only ones? Come onnnnn

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:38 am

These dogs have not been bred for these many years to be couch potatoes ONLY or to be running partners ONLY or to be pets ONLY or to be trial dogs ONLY. They have been selectively bred to be hunted one way or another, period. I don't believe I have ever read a post from a trialer who degraded a hunter for hunting his dogs, but I assure you there have been thousands of posts of self-proclaimed experts who spend an inordinate amount of time attacking the sport of field trialing. Many assuming trialers don't hunt their dogs. Assume the dogs are locked in kennels 23 hours a day and run for an hour at championships. Assume they are lunatic run offs that no one cares about unless they put hardware on the mantels. All of these beliefs are from those with the least practical knowledge and experience in the sport.

Read this thread only, you have people who are not really trialers, telling trialers to walk with them and that the way they play the game doesn't meet their needs. Now, who is wanting it THEIR way??

larue · Post by **larue** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:09 pm

I have not read the entire thread,so I could be repeating.
But first off you can walk in any akc event,be it horseback allowed or not.
If and when you get separarted from the other handler,your judge will stay with you,and your dog throughout the entire event.
There can be some significant disadvantages,especially if your dog is competitive and runs foward with the other dog.
For example,your dog has a piece of birdwork,in which your bracemates keeps going foward.Now after you work the bird,your dog runs to the front,catching up
with the other handler.So now you are way behind,while your dog is way ahead,if you had a horse you could catch up without alot of problem,but now you are in a tough place.
The biggest problem handlers who only walk is this,there dogs do not learn to handle off of the horses,which causes the dog to come back much closer
to the handler,than a dog who just keys off the gallery or the handlers horse.
This is what separates most walking only dogs from horseback trained dogs.
I once watched a 60 year old guy walk an hour ngspa event and keep up.It was unbelieveable.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:45 pm

topher40 wrote:Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. .

Chris is spot on. I don't have a horse, and my experience on them is limited, but I'm trying to learn. I walk a lot of braces. I will start out with the judges or behind them, but EVERY TIME I've been told to go on and walk next to the handlers, or at the very least, in front of the judges. I guess I want their permission before I do anything like walk in the vacinity of the handlers. I've walked several braces in a row, and can usually see exactly what is going on. Mouth shut, eyes open, you'll see quite a bit and learn alot.

And every time, I've been offered a horse to ride to. Especially if it's a multi-course trial and a gallery member is getting ready to run his dog. Someone needs to ride the horse...

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:55 pm

V-John wrote:
topher40 wrote:Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. .
Chris is spot on. I don't have a horse, and my experience on them is limited, but I'm trying to learn. I walk a lot of braces. I will start out with the judges or behind them, but EVERY TIME I've been told to go on and walk next to the handlers, or at the very least, in front of the judges. I guess I want their permission before I do anything like walk in the vacinity of the handlers. I've walked several braces in a row, and can usually see exactly what is going on. Mouth shut, eyes open, you'll see quite a bit and learn alot. And every time, I've been offered a horse to ride to. Especially if it's a multi-course trial and a gallery member is getting ready to run his dog. Someone needs to ride the horse...

I don't know you from Adam, but you may be the smartest man alive. Great post from a great perspective. Thanks

Post by **topher40** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:10 pm

I taught him everything he knows.......

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:12 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
V-John wrote:
topher40 wrote:Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. .

Chris

..................................................................................................

Wow. We certainly dare not walk next to the handlers or judges in our trials. Actually if you fall behind the gallery , it's amazing what you might see.

SubMariner · Post by **SubMariner** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:05 pm

Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. .

Wow. We certainly dare not walk next to the handlers or judges in our trials. Actually if you fall behind the gallery , it's amazing what you might see.

Down here the protocol is handlers, judges, then gallery (walking or horseback). One particular judge didn't even want us walking off the road; if they & the handlers went off, we had to parallel them on the road. When they came back, we were allowed to fall in behind again. But then that was only that particular judge.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:08 pm

SubMariner wrote:
Tommy-
You can walk in a walking trial in the gallery to watch. I am not sure who you are talking to but they obviously dont know much. Routinely we have guys walk in the gallery at my trial for example ( one of many ). If people dont believe me ask V-John on here, he walks a TON. Walkers in the gallery are almost always encouraged to walk next to the handlers instead of behind a horse so they can see. .

Wow. We certainly dare not walk next to the handlers or judges in our trials. Actually if you fall behind the gallery , it's amazing what you might see.
Down here the protocol is handlers, judges, then gallery (walking or horseback). One particular judge didn't even want us walking off the road; if they & the handlers went off, we had to parallel them on the road. When they came back, we were allowed to fall in behind again. But then that was only that particular judge.

I believe some folks do not have a sufficiently well developed sense of humor. Oh well. no big deal either way. If I am judging and there is a walking gallery, as long as I can see what I need to, why not let the walking gallery get a good look also? If I am riding and there are walkers in the gallery, I have no problem staying behind them unless they fall waaay far behind. If I am scouting, I want to be behind the gallery anyway, anyhow... so I can "disappear" and then "reappear" if I need to.

As to the suggestion that judges be allowed to ride ATV's or UTV's, electric or otherwise:

First, the American Field prohibits use of off road type vehicles for judging in the continental US.

Second, in just about every state in the Union, unlicensed vehicles are not allowed on Wildlife Management Areas, State Parks and State Forests. I am not sure about federal lands. Since most field trials are held on state lands, ATV or UTV use is not an option. On private ground you may, of course, do what the landowner permits. The USCSDA allows use of of road vehicles for handicapped handlers as a first option, where permitted. Their backup option is horseback. I believe the USCSDA also permits judging from 4 wheelers but I am not positive of that.

RayG

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:37 am

I have never been to a Walking Trial that the walking gallery walks in front..Matter of fact they are usually eating the dust from the riding gallery, which I think is very rude. I think walkers should be before the riders....

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:46 am

The AKC added a walking trial as an additional event that would get more people running their dogs. However, these events are not "walking events". The trial accomodates the walking handler but all others have the right to ride or walk, including scouts. These trials are more of an excuse to run a third event for the folks who are trialers. As most know, in fact, the third trial can now be walking or horseback. Just shows that in reality the horsebackers are the ones who are paying the bills, so really they are the ones who are, and will be, accomodated. Sounds like I'm an advocate of accomodating walkers, handlers or gallery. I actually believe that if one wants to play the game, they can do like the rest of us, buy a horse, buy a trailer, spend a ton of money, or yes, just walk. But, whether anyone wants to say it or not, the game is about horseback dog competition. If you don't like the game, you have many other venues that will "accomodate" your wants and needs.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:01 am

I don't think clubs are obligated to offer horseback handling at AKC trials. If they hold the full slate, one trial must be walking, I think. But, that's from memory. They don't have to offer retrieving stakes, either.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:22 am

Cajun, clubs are not obligated to offer horseback handling, these are horseback trials. By no means does the club have to offer loaner or rental horses. And, no a club does not have to run a walking trial at all. Nor does a club have to offer a single horseback event, all can be walking. AKC clubs can have four trials per year. All four events can be walking or three horseback(maximum) and one walking.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:25 am

trueblu wrote:Cajun, clubs are not obligated to offer horseback handling, these are horseback trials. By no means does the club have to offer loaner or rental horses. And, no a club does not have to run a walking trial at all. Nor does a club have to offer a single horseback event, all can be walking. AKC clubs can have four trials per year. All four events can be walking or three horseback(maximum) and one walking.

That's what I thought the latest edict said. Thanks. If we ever get crazy enough to do a horseback, you're invited. To judge.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:26 am

snips wrote:I have never been to a Walking Trial that the walking gallery walks in front..Matter of fact they are usually eating the dust from the riding gallery, which I think is very rude. I think walkers should be before the riders....

I agree. If someone is willing to walk a brace, they should be afforded a reasonable opportunity to see something besides a horse's rump.

Fair is fair.

I cannot say that, if I were judging, I would allow folks in the gallery to walk ahead. Perhaps even with the judges and to the side, but not ahead...mostly because that might be unfair to the handlers. I would probably give most of the path th the walkers,,,but it all depends. But if there was a gallery of one or two and they were walking...?? They are probably there to watch and support one of the dogs and handlers...probably family too.

RayG

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:28 pm

I've been to cover dog trials where the judges walked every brace and others where the judges road horses for all or part of every brace. These braces are 1 hour long and cover uneven and unimproved "trails" through the woods. I've been to several planted bird trials where the judges, bird planters and even the gallery are on 4-wheelers. Having a bunch of 4-wheelers right behind you makes it more difficult for me to work my dog around the course. It is worse when the handlers are separated and one has to work his/her way to the handler up front. The gallery splits between the handlers and the one in the back now has to deal those noise makers on both sides.

As far as where the gallery walks during the trial I've always been told to stay behind the judges who in return stay behind the handlers. If the handlers get split up then the gallery often splits as well but they are still behind the judge. The bird planter on single course trials stays behind the gallery and plants birds for the next brace.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:02 pm

I've walked, and had to stay behind the Judges and agree with this, in my opinion this is correct, I would'nt want to hinder the Judges view of seeing the dogs that thier judging or interfering with the handlers ability to control thier dog. And in doing so I don't feel like I really ever missed anything. JMO.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:10 pm

snips wrote:I have never been to a Walking Trial that the walking gallery walks in front..Matter of fact they are usually eating the dust from the riding gallery, which I think is very rude. I think walkers should be before the riders....

All our event premiums state walking gallery is up front - can't say it always happens in practice, though.

Per someone's later question - a club can hold 4 trials per year, one of them has to be walking. ALL 4 can be walking if the club so chooses, but all 4 can NOT be horseback.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:54 pm

I agree in part to having walkers in front.

We were at a walking trial this weekend and tried to let walkers in the gallery go behind the judges. I don't have a problem with that at all as long as the keep up with the judges. When they start falling behind the judges I am going to catch up to the judges. If they catch back up during the bird work they can go in front again. Luckily when it isn't a real narrow course I just ride out to the side and let them have room. People forget the handlers aren't walking and talking, they are running a dog and usually walk faster than a normal pace. You can't go for a stroll and keep up. You also have 1 or 2 people trying to scout. That can be hard to do if you are 100yds behind following walkers who don't keep up. We also tried to let walkers in front some but they wanted anyone on HB to go by. Some people are uneasy around horses and would rather not have horses in front and behind them which I can understand.

Obviously I would encourage people who want to walk braces to do it. Before I had a horse I would run a dog in 1-2 braces and walk 6-8 more each day. You aren't going to learn much sitting back at camp, but you will if you are watching braces. Now the only braces I don't ride is the one right before I run, and whoever is scouting for me rides it. I don't know what to train for if I don't know whats beating me or what I did better than another dog if I didn't see it run.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:46 am

I can see if the walking gallery has one or two people in it to allow them to be up front during bird work, maybe. But, when I'm judging I am there to watch dogs and not have to fight to have my horse step on a walking gallery member, keep tabs on them, etc. Further, when a dog goes on point, I need to be able to watch the dog from the time I see him on point until birds are flushed. Often, I dismount to see the stupid running pen birds in thick cover, or ride around to the back of a thicket to see the birds fly out or walk out while trying to watch the dogs at the same time. Should I really have to ask the gallery to move when they are blocking my view of what I am trying to judge? If you are going to walk at ANY trial get a horse, stay behind, or live with what you get.

tenbearsviz · Post by **tenbearsviz** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:15 am

Some of the local trials mandate the horseback gallery stay behind the walking gallery.

I offer to scout for every brace I can then.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:13 am

One more thing I want to clarify.

1. When I walk, I make sure I am at a respectable distance behind the handlers. Make no mistake about it, I am no where near their hip pocket, that's for sure. 2. I make sure that I am invited up there to walk in front of the judges BY THE JUDGES. 90% of the time, they are the ones that tell me, to get up there so where I can see. I stand 6'5 and the judges still can see over me, so I assume it's fine. Then when something happens? I get the heck out of the judges way, if he needs to come off of his horse. I'll hold the horse if necessary, but it's usually not.

But, you won't learn anything from the clubhouse though, that's for sure. You gotta get involved to learn.

(Thank you for the compliment ElhewPointer though, it means a lot.)

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:40 pm

V-John wrote:I make sure that I am invited up there to walk in front of the judges BY THE JUDGES. 90% of the time, they are the ones that tell me, to get up there so where I can see.

Good for you VJohn. I have done that as a judge, numerous times. More often than not it is usually during a Walking Puppy or Derby Stake and I will invite someone up if they are with the handler so they can see. As a judge, if I can't see a dog because of a person walking in front of me while I'm on a horse, then that dog must behind the handler and not where it should be. I too will usually get off my horse to watch the flush most of the time if the handler is having a hard time finding a bird. If the spectator is unaware of their boundaries, it is just as easy to say something nicely (while they respect you)

,then to act like a jerk and yell.