Gun Dog Forum

Just wondering, from field trialers, what their opinions are about the "line" between AA and SD. It seems that there are A LOT of dogs that are making that transition easy. If you look at Travis Gellhaus' string and Luke Eisenhart's string, they are both doing well. Heck I think Luke is ahead in handler of the year. Also, the dog that won the National Open SD Championship last year just won the Florida AA with 90 dogs. Elhew Sinbad is another dog that went from SD to AA and has won. I always read about the "old times", where AA dogs were renagades. Are these days gone? Will we see again that there are just puppy, derby and broke dog stakes, no SD and AA? Just wondering what the trialers on here think. Thanks.

Good question. I'm not involved in AF trials but as far as AKC ive noticed it depends a lot on where the dog runs. and how the course is set up and how many birds. Minimum birds and wide open and mine will range. Put her in the Midwest on tree lines and you will only find her when she is on point (if you find her).

Last year I had to enter based upon where she was running.

Where we run most of the time you can run an AA dog, but only if they turn with you. It separates the men form the boys for sure.

I think AA is a lot of perception too. I and my friends run big gundogs or shooting dogs in AF. At least that is what we think so

However, we took them to a britt trial and they told us we had the dogs in the wrong stakes and they should have run AA. From what I know and have seen our dogs did not put down a true AA run.

I have seen a very small handful of dogs put down real AA runs.

So, to answer your question, I would have a SD that adapts to the terrain and cover and mode of transportation. I want a smart dog who minds me, but knows his job and does it well with little input from me. Did I mention stylish too?

IMHO it does have most to do with grounds and the dog. A prairie all age pointer is a heck of a lot different from an all age GSP which is a heck of a lot different from an all age brit which is a heck of a lot different from an all age weim. However, in some areas, a shooting dog pointer is more like a nice gun dog GSP. Then factor in grounds, Canada prairies versus Booneville. Ames versus the White Mountains. An all age dog at Ames is a gun dog in the White Mountains. An all age dog should push the grounds somewhat past their limit for the duration of the stake. A shooting dog should hang on edges and be near the limit of the grounds. A gun dog should hang but can still hunt more of the cover. It's all about the grounds, the stake, and how the judges choose to define the stake specifications and, if they so choose, the breed being run under their judgement. Personally, if I judge an all age brittany championship, the dogs better push the grounds. I judge them with the grounds in mind and what I expect an all age dog to do. I don't judge them as all age brits, but all age dogs, period.

The above is my opinion, not stated as facts. But, my own opinion from my own limited experience.

trueblu wrote:IMHO it does have most to do with grounds and the dog. A prairie all age pointer is a heck of a lot different from an all age GSP which is a heck of a lot different from an all age brit which is a heck of a lot different from an all age weim. However, in some areas, a shooting dog pointer is more like a nice gun dog GSP. Then factor in grounds, Canada prairies versus Booneville. Ames versus the White Mountains. An all age dog at Ames is a gun dog in the White Mountains. An all age dog should push the grounds somewhat past their limit for the duration of the stake. A shooting dog should hang on edges and be near the limit of the grounds. A gun dog should hang but can still hunt more of the cover. It's all about the grounds, the stake, and how the judges choose to define the stake specifications and, if they so choose, the breed being run under their judgement. Personally, if I judge an all age brittany championship, the dogs better push the grounds. I judge them with the grounds in mind and what I expect an all age dog to do. I don't judge them as all age brits, but all age dogs, period.

The above is my opinion, not stated as facts. But, my own opinion from my own limited experience.

I used to have conversation's with AKC AA people and take the same stand you did here. Nobody wanted to hear it! What they were looking for mostly was a dog that ran off and was found on point somewhere. I had a really nice AA dog in my Lefty, my wife ran him. I had no desire to be involved it something that was so miss understood by so many, probably including myself. I was critized about my Lefty's performance quite often, they said he hunted cover he should have busted thru without slowing down! They said he handled like a gun dog. They claimed he wasn't gone enough. I think he was an ideal of what an AA dog should have been. He was very good at going to objectives, he ran very very big, and he did handle like a gun dog. He had a lot of intensity on birds, so much so that most people watching him the first time didn't believe he'd stand the birds. In AKC we had what people called the "gray area" dog. To much run for GD and not enough for AA. They called them an AF shooting dog. I could never understand why there was a no mans land, to much for gundog and not enough for all age? That dog only existed in the minds of people. In my opinion the gray area dog was an honest all age.

I will preface my comments by stating that I have never been on a course where a true all age dog could differentiate itself from what I like to call a big running shooting dog. There were a couple of courses that came close to being able to showcase the difference, but nothing like the expanses out West.

I agree that it is more about the courses today and the courses are smaller and tighter. You cannot win with a lost dog and a truly ambitious dog will run out of most courses I have seen. Not run off... but run OUT. To me there is a difference. When a course makes a ninety or a one hundred eighty degree turn, the truly ambitious dog, the all age freak will, more often than not...miss the turn and keep on keepin' on. They are hunting and seeking, but by the time they realize their handler is not following, they may be so far off that they cannot get back to the front. Either that or they find game and are lost on point, not becase they did anything wrong, but because they went off the man made course and found birds like they were supposed to.

I also think that a part of it is the expectations of some owners. They are laying out big bucks...more than ever before, and they want results. The all age dog of years past was expected not to be in judgement most of the time...because they were very often OUT THERE. The owners and patrons of years past expected that and were comfortable with that. I think that some current owners have a lower threshold for that sort of thing and, for the pros, it is a business and a livelihood. If you do not give your owners what they want...you won't be in business too awful long.

Interesting topic. I would really enjoy hearing the opinions of those who do a lot of all age competing.

RayG

trueblu wrote:IMHO it does have most to do with grounds and the dog. A prairie all age pointer is a heck of a lot different from an all age GSP which is a heck of a lot different from an all age brit which is a heck of a lot different from an all age weim. However, in some areas, a shooting dog pointer is more like a nice gun dog GSP. Then factor in grounds, Canada prairies versus Booneville. Ames versus the White Mountains. An all age dog at Ames is a gun dog in the White Mountains. An all age dog should push the grounds somewhat past their limit for the duration of the stake. A shooting dog should hang on edges and be near the limit of the grounds. A gun dog should hang but can still hunt more of the cover. It's all about the grounds, the stake, and how the judges choose to define the stake specifications and, if they so choose, the breed being run under their judgement. Personally, if I judge an all age brittany championship, the dogs better push the grounds. I judge them with the grounds in mind and what I expect an all age dog to do. I don't judge them as all age brits, but all age dogs, period.

The above is my opinion, not stated as facts. But, my own opinion from my own limited experience.

You bring up some good points, but my original post was intended to say/mean, why are these shooting dogs winning AA trials? Has the line changed? I know you mention grounds, but Luke's and Travis' SD strings won up on the prairies(Big AA country). So I the grounds really aren't factoring in IMO.

ElhewPointer wrote:...my original post was intended to say/mean, why are these shooting dogs winning AA trials? Has the line changed? I know you mention grounds, but Luke's and Travis' SD strings won up on the prairies(Big AA country). So I the grounds really aren't factoring in IMO.

Both Luke and Travis have made the decision to run AA dogs. The trials that they run are set on grounds that (hopefully) suit an AA dog and handler. The grounds are always a factor. Have you considered that they are letting the dogs run an AA race? They are also responding to owners that want - and are providing/sponsoring AA dogs. In Travis' case he has been running young dogs and derbies in the AA stakes that I have seen him in. These are AA hopefuls, and in some cases they are winning. So maybe the dogs and the handlers have changed to suit the game.

I think the lines have indeed changed to accommodate the dogs that have been entered in the given stakes. Surely a dog that wins a SD stake one day but then wins the AA the next a line does have to be blurred does it not?

Wenaha wrote:

ElhewPointer wrote:...my original post was intended to say/mean, why are these shooting dogs winning AA trials? Has the line changed? I know you mention grounds, but Luke's and Travis' SD strings won up on the prairies(Big AA country). So I the grounds really aren't factoring in IMO.

Both Luke and Travis have made the decision to run AA dogs. The trials that they run are set on grounds that (hopefully) suit an AA dog and handler. The grounds are always a factor. Have you considered that they are letting the dogs run an AA race? They are also responding to owners that want - and are providing/sponsoring AA dogs. In Travis' case he has been running young dogs and derbies in the AA stakes that I have seen him in. These are AA hopefuls, and in some cases they are winning. So maybe the dogs and the handlers have changed to suit the game.

I would say that the handlers have changed, but I don't feel that the dogs have changed that much. JMO

I don't compete in any all Age competion so my opinion of all age dog would be meaningless. What I can tell you is that I have seen Luke's Shooting dog string a number of times and they were always some of the biggest running shooting dogs in the stake, he already knew how to handle a big going dog.

I always read about the "old times", where AA dogs were renagades. Are these days gone?

I have to think that a big difference is the tools available nowadays. You talk to the folks from the "renegade" era and they get a glazed look in their eye and nervous twitch. You hear stories of all sorts of crazy things they did to "handle" those dogs. The tales almost always required their best horse ridden at break neck speeds to even just get their hands on said renegade - maybe. After catching the hound the tales vary to involve things like reins, flushing whips, near drownings, dog bites, 8 D-cell batteries, etc. but end with the "from that day on we was a team..." or "turned him loose, never saw him again". Usually the recipe for success had the statement "if he finished, he'd win everytime"...but the dog almost never finished. Nowadays of course we've got some pretty intricate devices that not only allow us to know where our dogs are at ridiculous ranges but also allow us to pretty significantly alter their behavior at those distances. You can put "shooting dog handle" on an AA application much easier these days...or even influence or put AA application on a SD although noone is really giving me the secret to that one. It doesn't take long in trialing to figure out that if the dog doesn't finish, you don't win - renegades don't often finish. Why go thru the heartache and roller coaster ride (exciting?? you bet!! everyone enjoys a roller coaster at some point whether it be during the ride or the relief of surviving and getting off!) of the renegades and blackhearts if, utilizing "new" training methods you can more consistently get a dog from point A to point B in a fashion acceptable to the standard of the stake whether it be SD one day, AA the next. Most successful folks realize the dogs don't often/always have to run the biggest/farthest/deepest in the country to win in either SD or AA...the dog typically just has to "run enough" to satisfy the judges standard for the stake, get to the end, and do a whole lotta other stuff right along the way.

I don't read the write ups typically but I suspect Luke is getting a fair percentage of dogs from point A to point B with acceptable race, good bird work, etc. - putting himself in contention consistently.

The days of the true all age type dog are probably behind us. Like Vagas said you have puppies, derbies, and adults.

Chris makes a valid point with dogs winning the open all age on Saturday and the open shooting dog on Sunday. There is really no separation in the two now in my opinion. Having seen some really nice examples of both here lately, they look the same.

Are any of those SD that have won AA , winning on big western grounds on wild birds?

birddog1968 wrote:Are any of those SD that have won AA , winning on big western grounds on wild birds?

I don't know. I don't care really. They're winning here and that's all that matters to me.

bigsugar wrote: There is really no separation in the two now in my opinion. Having seen some really nice examples of both here lately, they look the same.

I'm not following this, If you have seen examples of both then wouldnt there be a difference

Well if the SD's aren't winning on the prairie on wild birds and the prairie winners are also winning in the south on tight courses then that to me tells a tale.

I'm not following this, If you have seen examples of both then wouldnt there be a difference

C'mon man, this is birddog stuff, logic and reason not allowed!!

There's money to be made running shooting dogs. Tracy and Kinkelaar know that. If everyone continues to leave then they'll be the only ones left. You don't see Tracy run a dog outside of the east coast really either for that matter.

Let me rephrase and say I have seen really nice dogs entered in the shooting dog and really nice dogs entered in the all age. They looked interchangeable to me.

Any fancy black and white pictures for us Dougie?

birddog1968 wrote:Well if the SD's aren't winning on the prairie on wild birds and the prairie winners are also winning in the south on tight courses then that to me tells a tale.

Yes, I know Travis has won up in the NW and Luke got a piece of the All-American Prairie Ch. off the top of my head. But to answer you, yes they are winning on AA grounds.

rockyridge kennels wrote:Tracy and Kinkelaar must think there is a difference, because I never see there SD dogs entered in AA stakes.............

This isnt GSP's, you dont play both ways in this game!!!!

Never a topic where someone isn't crowing about their game being better or their breed being better. People crack me up. I have seen some pretty impressive AA GSPs.

kbshorthairs wrote: Never a topic where someone isn't crowing about their game being better or their breed being better. People crack me up. I have seen some pretty impressive AA GSPs.

Never a topic where GSP people arent crying either. READ THE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!! AKC pros have both AA and SD on there string!!!!! That doesn't happen in the pointer world. Quit crying. This has nothing to do with comparing the breed. It's like you guys just love the crying. Geesh

AKC pros have both AA and SD on there string!!!!! That doesn't happen in the pointer world.

Why not?

This is a serious question. It's not loaded.

Any fancy black and white pictures for us Dougie?

Nothin' fancy, bagged this sharpie Sunday over a nice find by Trixie doin' her hunting/shooting dog thang:


Personally, I wouldn't have a problem doing away with the SD/AA classifications and just have one classification - call it whatever you like. Judge 'em on the best application for the country and game available...whatever that is.

you dont play both ways in this game!!!!

Aww, cmon, plenty of examples of dogs winning in both. Granted you aren't likely to see a pro run the same dog in an AA Ch and SD Ch at same venue on same week. I've been braced with dogs and competed against dogs in SD championships that had just returned from competing at Ames in the Nat'l. Of course we just do whatever the heck we want out here sometimes grabbing dogs off the street just to get enough to make a championship!!

**reread this stuff and think I misinterpreted - were your referring to the handlers playing both ways SD & AA?? If that was the deal then yes, IME, I'd agree most pro handlers typically stick to one or the other.

I would suggest you follow your own advice elhew, I read back over the thread, there isn't one single bit of so called "crying" from any GSP person in the thread. Didn't really see any "other breed" crying either. Why make statements that are just not fact?

Reality is...there should be a difference in shooting dogs and all age dogs. However, most judges put up a nice shooting dog race with stylish finds in all age stakes and then put up dogs that are only seen three times, on point, in an hour shooting dog stake. Yes, the lines are blurred due to the dogs being run and the judging criterion, or lack thereof.

rockyridge kennels wrote:

ElhewPointer wrote:

rockyridge kennels wrote:Tracy and Kinkelaar must think there is a difference, because I never see there SD dogs entered in AA stakes.............

This isnt GSP's, you dont play both ways in this game!!!!

Thanks Vagas, I guess I have a lot to learn about how you big boys play :roll:

But I'm pretty sure you said Luke took his shooting dog string and went to AA so which is it you do or you dont "play both way's.

And BTW your shorthair comments are about wearin me out seriously. Hopefully this spring I will get to see your string of "world beaters"

Easy boys, he was just saying at most gsp trials there is SD and AA offered. At "pointer" championships it is either SD or AA, not both. Nothing against GSP's just stating the difference in the stakes offered at most trials.

Sorry,

Thats not the way I read it. But yes I would agree with that.

Guys can we not have a conversation that stays on topic and without attacks. In AF handlers are SD handlers or AA handlers. Luke just recently switch from SD to AA. AKC is a different world! Vagas wasn't ever saying pointers are better, it has nothing to do with that. And last time I checked Vagas owned part of a pretty nice GSP also....


Here is my train of thought on SD vs AA. For me I don't think a SD or gundog in AKC terms, can run too big. The difference for me is I wanna see that SD more than that AA dog. When you really think about it how can you not say that a bigger running SD is affecttively hunting more? The bigger running dog will cover more ground. So for me there isn't all that big of difference, except I don't want that shooting dog to be gone for to long.... Right or wrong that's my train of thought!

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:Guys can we not have a conversation that stays on topic and without attacks. In AF handlers are SD handlers or AA handlers. Luke just recently switch from SD to AA. AKC is a different world! Vagas wasn't ever saying pointers are better, it has nothing to do with that. And last time I checked Vagas owned part of a pretty nice GSP also....


Here is my train of thought on SD vs AA. For me I don't think a SD or gundog in AKC terms, can run too big. The difference for me is I wanna see that SD more than that AA dog. When you really think about it how can you not say that a bigger running SD is affecttively hunting more? The bigger running dog will cover more ground. So for me there isn't all that big of difference, except I don't want that shooting dog to be gone for to long.... Right or wrong that's my train of thought!

Good points. Hadle on the dog is a big factor. I think there is a lot more handle on AA dogs of present compared to past. Training methods have helped/hindered that.

And thank you for bringing the post back to as it was intended.

trueblu wrote:Reality is...there should be a difference in shooting dogs and all age dogs. However, most judges put up a nice shooting dog race with stylish finds in all age stakes and then put up dogs that are only seen three times, on point, in an hour shooting dog stake. Yes, the lines are blurred due to the dogs being run and the judging criterion, or lack thereof.

Good point!! Judging is the key IMO.

I think Ferrel started the trend of all age dogs handling like that. He was something to watch. He could gather a dog anywhere anytime and send him where he wanted him to go.

AA vs SD=3 hours vs 1 1/2 hours. They all playing to play the big game at the end, that's where the difference is apparent, up until that point to many variables. IMO

bigsugar wrote:I think Ferrel started the trend of all age dogs handling like that. He was something to watch. He could gather a dog anywhere anytime and send him where he wanted him to go.

Now that is the truth. Except one time I saw him turn White Powder loose and just let him roll. Not sure if that was on purpose or not.

I would agree on the handle topic. I've seen very few shorthairs with mile range, WITH HANDLE, who will hang there. I've seen a grand total of two prairie AA pointer trials and what amazed me was the handle on the dogs. Dog is a mile out and the handler just turned his horse and the dog turned or just barely "yipped" and the dog turned. Most shorthairs at that range are doing it for themselves and ain't gonna turn with the handler. Most shorthairs that are considered all age dogs are more run offs who happen to go the way the course is going or are stopped by birds. OR, many of the shorthairs that are winning are bigger shooting dogs but are big enough that judges will use them.

I saw dateline leave him once too. That was an impressive animal.

With the use of a garmin we now know the mile is really a half mile!!

myerstenn wrote:With the use of a garmin we now know the mile is really a half mile!!

Lol.

I have been researching this topic for years now, have read everything I can and talk to any pro or amateur who will give guidance and share their experience. One thing I have found constant across all the pro's over the past couple of years I have talked to (pointer, britt and gsp) is that the dog has to handle without exception. Most of the pro's I have talked with have told me that they do not let their AA dogs run like AA dogs in training and their focus is making them handle and stay close like a gun dog and that in a trial situation they ALWAYS stretch back out to a big forward race. Looking back to when I first starting trying to understand this, when I would see AA dogs in training, they would stretch out and NOT handle like a gun dog...this is a huge change in the overall approach AA pro's are taking with their dogs based on "MY CONVERSATIONS".

By putting the focus on handle and training to control range when needed, I believe they are much better able to take an AA dog and show em well as a SD and in the end if you don't have the dog at the end of the stake you can't win. One "big name" AA pro I talked to about this said he may wash out a few more dogs with this approach to training because they won't range anymore in a trial, but those dogs that do make it through the program sure do win more. I think as the dogs get better and better and training techniques evolve the line will blur even more...

myerstenn wrote:With the use of a garmin we now know the mile is really a half mile!!

There have always been folks who knew when a mile was a mile. If you want to have a good idea of the range of dogs you can read the write ups on the trials in Region 14 ( http://www.region14aftca.com ). These are some of the biggest running shooting dog and all age dogs in the country running on grounds that allow them to range to the max. Many of the reporters of the stakes saw fit to include comments on range of the dog in their write-ups. These are from folks who know the grounds, know the markers - if they say a mile it is a mile, if they say 250 yards you can bet it wasn't 300.

edit: Looks like many of the older reports are gone. Check the 2003 write ups.

I have always heard that the main difference is in application. The AA dog will see an objective and hunt that objective, then will find a new objective and hunt that. The SD will hunt from objective to objective covering the ground in between. Would this be the case of why we are seeing more of a blur between the two. The bigger ranging dog would logistically be the AA as they are covering more ground moving from objective to objective, the SD is hunting between those objectives. JMO

A mile is a mile in Eureka KS or the NE sandhills or Freer TX or the White Mountains. A mile in GA or FL or TN ain't a mile. This is not to say we southerners can't "do no math", more of a tight verus open deal.

hpvizslas wrote:I have always heard that the main difference is in application. The AA dog will see an objective and hunt that objective, then will find a new objective and hunt that. The SD will hunt from objective to objective covering the ground in between. Would this be the case of why we are seeing more of a blur between the two. The bigger ranging dog would logistically be the AA as they are covering more ground moving from objective to objective, the SD is hunting between those objectives. JMO

Jim Avent's description is that the AA dog is supposed to be "hunting as he goes despite his speed, power and extended range".

If an All Age dog starts toward an objective he WILL get there. If an All Age dog grabs an edge he WILL finish it. Shooting dogs .... not so much. If the course is such that there is always an objective within reach of a Shooting Dog it will become very difficult to tell the difference.