Breed Specific Trials

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:11 pm

Why do so many people who trial in the AKC trials not go to American Field trials? So many people who trial, will only trial in breed specific trials, or won't take their dogs to the pointer/setter trials. Why is that? Why do the GSPs/Vizslas/Britts/Weims generally stick to just those breed specific trials? I certainly understand persuing a championship in the AKC venue, and the individual requirements that differ for each breed, but it seems that some folks just won't run their dogs in the pointer/setter trials. How come?
Do they think they won't recieve a fair shake? Are they right? Do they not have the dog to do it?
I know that I would like to see more of my breed folks give it a crack, but don't hear about it much. What about the other breeds?

If so, kudos.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:14 pm

Hold on, let me get my popcorn. Did you lose a bet?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:19 pm

K Nine Tucalota Chance Ed Mayhew & Arlette Hennessey Region 12 Derby (Bill West Derby Classic)
Kingman, Arizona 01/28/2011 First place 16 starters 76546 03/14/2011

Jim has a few more derby placements and just got done going through training so we shall see what he does in adult stakes as he matures

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:24 pm

nikegundog wrote:Hold on, let me get my popcorn. Did you lose a bet?

I was thinking something similar.

OP, Some of it has to do with where you live. Not many AF trials out here, but there are a ton AKC ones. That being said, I do hope to enter a few of the AF trials soon.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:35 pm

Not many AF trials out here

Man, definitely no shortage of AF trials in Cali. Here ya' go for this spring - go get 'em!!:
January 14-15
George Chance Am. SD Classic
Companion Stakes
Host: Fresno BDC
Grounds: Little Panoche WLA, CA
Contact: Dr. Hal Meyer – 209-897-7245

February 3-5
Pete Cunningham Open Puppy Classic
Companion Stakes
Host: West Valley BDC
Grounds: Moonlight Ranch, Valley Springs, CA
Contact: Jan Corbitt – ladymarten@aol.com

February 24-26
Reg. 11 Am. AA Derby Classic
Companion Stakes
Host: Reg. 11 & Antelope Valley BDC
Grounds: Setter Springs Ranch, Maricopa, CA
Contacts: Tom Griffin - 831-722-2444
Bruce Hale – 951-371-3271

March 1-4
California Quail Championship
Jim Ingle Open Derby Classic
Host: Pacific Coast FTC
Grounds: Brooks Ranch, Jamestown, CA
Contact: Jeff Gilbertson - 209-366-3501

March 5-7
West Coast Open Shooting Dog Championship
Host: San Joaquin ESC
Grounds: Brooks Ranch, Jamestown, CA
Contact: Tom Griffin – 831-722-2444
March 24-25
Open and Amateur Stakes
Host: Setter Springs FTC
Grounds: Setter Springs Ranch, Maricopa, CA
Contact: Jerry Erickson – 714-838-1039

March 31- April 1
Open and Amateur Stakes
Host: San Joaquin Valley ESC
Grounds: Narbaitz Ranch, Little Panoche, CA
Contact: Mike Spies – 650-856-9060

April 19 to Completion
Reg. 11 Am. AA Championship
Western Open AA Championship
Western Open SD Championship
Open Derby
Hosts: Region 11
Bay Area BDC
Grounds: Red Rock Valley, Reno, NV
Contacts: Tom Griffin – 831-722-2444
Jared Tappero - 530-284-6801

seems that some folks just won't run their dogs in the pointer/setter trials

Always cracks me up when I hear "pointer/setter trials"...not sure there is such a thing other than maybe the Continental which I believe is limited to only pointer/setters. Maybe if folks didn't refer to them as pointer/setter trials other breeds might be more inclined to show up...and get screwed, worked over, hosed big time, fleeced, and maybe hometowned.

Just kiddin' - I personally enjoy the open breed AF trials the most...it's so much easier to lose when that's the anticipated and expected outcome!!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:41 pm

I think it depends on the part of the country you are in and the community you are involved with. I prefer to run AF walking dog trials because I do not like retrieving callbacks. I entered one AKC trial last year because of where it was and I will put my Shooting Dogs in the trial the AKC club I belong to is holding this spring. By our next trial, we hope to dual sanction as an AF weekend trial along with the AKC sanction. I wouldn't mind trying horseback SD, but the horse I have isn't an appropriate mount.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:54 pm

Arlette, thats great, and I know you compete in NSTRA too; so that's cool. I'm not trying to start an arguement, I didn't lose a bet or anything like that. And this isn't a "my venue is better then your venue", but more of a question of, why aren't we competing more in the AF events with the other pointers/setters?
Location, I can get that. Cost, not really, as they are pretty much the same cost wise.

I'm just trying to understand why that these dogs that do so well aren't being run against the pointers/setters...

Again, not trying to start a fight, but just curious why more folks aren't running the AF stuff.

Felicia, that makes sense too. May have more to do with what's close or WHO'S close, I suppose.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:59 pm

Maybe it's because they don't know they can.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:07 am

I'll give this one a stab.... there are only so many weekends in the season, so you have to pick your poison.
If you are working on finishing an AKC FC title, going to an AF event isn't going to help you. If you have finished dogs and are working on being in your breeds Top Ten stats, AF trials don't count.

If you have your dog with a Pro- and if he has AKC clients that are working on finishing dogs, then he's going to go to AKC trials, not many AF trials.

If you have one of the continental breeds, winning a weekend AF trial gives you... a piece of paper that says you won or placed. (and maybe some bragging rites?) But unless it's a Ch, what does it give you?

The AKC folks really have enough of our own events to go to that we just don't have the free weekends to go to AF trials. But to be totally honest- just from reading many of the conversations here on this forum- why would I want to take my dock tailed dog to a long tail trial and not be taken seriously? Too many people out there believe there is no way any of the continentals are as good or could ever be as good as a pointer and they wouldn't/couldn't give the dog a fair shake. It's hard enough as it is, I don't know that I need to try to make believers out of people who don't want to believe. Why waste my time on that? If I wanted to run with pointers, I would own a pointer! Different game, different dog.

It's all good though, I just personally have no need to prove anything to anyone. We will be going to a couple of AF ch events this season,... but for continental breeds.
Fuzz

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:45 am

There are a good handful of trials that are Dual sanctioned...At least in the Brittany Club trials...we just had the western Brittany Championship here in AZ there will be a Brittany Chukar championship over in cal then in April where will be a Brittany Western Shooting dog championship all will be Dual Sanctioned AKC and AF this is just the few west coast there are more across the states

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:05 am

fuzznut wrote:I'll give this one a stab.... there are only so many weekends in the season, so you have to pick your poison.
If you are working on finishing an AKC FC title, going to an AF event isn't going to help you. If you have finished dogs and are working on being in your breeds Top Ten stats, AF trials don't count.

If you have your dog with a Pro- and if he has AKC clients that are working on finishing dogs, then he's going to go to AKC trials, not many AF trials.

If you have one of the continental breeds, winning a weekend AF trial gives you... a piece of paper that says you won or placed. (and maybe some bragging rites?) But unless it's a Ch, what does it give you?

The AKC folks really have enough of our own events to go to that we just don't have the free weekends to go to AF trials. But to be totally honest- just from reading many of the conversations here on this forum- why would I want to take my dock tailed dog to a long tail trial and not be taken seriously? Too many people out there believe there is no way any of the continentals are as good or could ever be as good as a pointer and they wouldn't/couldn't give the dog a fair shake. It's hard enough as it is, I don't know that I need to try to make believers out of people who don't want to believe. Why waste my time on that? If I wanted to run with pointers, I would own a pointer! Different game, different dog.

It's all good though, I just personally have no need to prove anything to anyone. We will be going to a couple of AF ch events this season,... but for continental breeds.
Fuzz

Fuzz, you bring up some excellent points, thank you. I just have a couple of thoughts. Do you ever think some dog's titles are watered down? I mean, I know of a lot of titled dogs that are taken only to certain breed trials because that's the venue they feel like they are most competitive in. So, with that being said, are those titled watered down? They beat quite a few dogs obviously, but, are they beating some of the best?
Second, bragging rights. Yes, a win at a weekend trial only gets you a slip of paper that represents bragging rights, but isn't that all a title is? A slip of paper representing bragging rights? Some areas do have "shooting dog of the year " titles and such as well, so those weekend wins do count for something.
There was a vizsla out west that won an Open AF championship a few years back, and that dog, has my uptmost respect. Along with the judges and the owner. That dog's title is more impressive to me then many of the AKC titled dogs out there because if you look at their wins, well...

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:08 am

One more thing. I am in no way deminishing AKC titles. I know the difficulty that it takes to get one and getting one in itself is quite the accomplishment. Quite an awesome accomplishment really.
I just sometimes wonder why more people, once they get their titles don't try and "Open" AF trial once in a while. (Is that better terminology DG?

)

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:31 am

It's all about money and how much you want to spend. It would cost me a whole lot more money to run in AF events comp. To AKC. Believe me I want to run in some shooting dog stuff but you gotta have the $ in it if you are going to run. Maybe next year ill have all my research done and ready to run.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:44 am

DC Britt Haven's Blaze of Glory
MD Sporting Dog Association
2nd Place OSD

Woodland's Money Pit
Spruce Run Bird Dog Club
3rd Place ORSD

In fact Chloe (Woodland's Money Pit) is on Jeanette Tracy's field trial string (check her ad in the christmas edition of the Field)

Unfortunately, Brittanys MUST run (and place) in Brittany club trials in order to qualify annually to run in their National Champion stakes. We'll probably need to pull Chloe back to AKC sometime this season or next if we ever want to try our hand at the national championship with her.

We've also found (and we've been running at least a few AF trials a season for several years) that there are a fair amount of AF judges in our area that won't even look at a Brittany, no matter how good the dog is, and I'm betting that holds true for other breeds aside from EP, ES and RS's too. It's an uphill battle, and until there are enough other breeds consistently entering AF trials, it's most definitely a loosing battle.

We like the venue....we like that we can ride, scout and handle our dogs the way we see fit, without the stupid constraints AKC has attempted to force on us. I just wish I wasn't entering the ONLY Brittanys every time we run AF.

As for dual sanctioned trials....that's a joke. Ever try to enter a 2 yr old derby in an AKC derby stake? You think you'll keep your points if you win? HA!! Our "dual sanctioned" National Gun Dog Championship that is SUPPOSE to have 1 real AF judge there had none this year, and I don't expect any next year either. Any dual sanctioned trial is run under AKC rules, NOT AF rules (like walking is allowed in a horseback stake at a dual sanctioned trial...just for starters).

Even the rules for pro vs. amateur are different between organizations. How the heck to do you sort that out?

Anyway, dual sanctioned means AKC rules and the club paid the $90 for the ad in The Field. That's it.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:03 am

V-John, the same can be said about the pointer/setter folks. Pointers and setters are more than welcome in the GSP AKC trials. I only know of ONE GSP trial that is breed specific/breed only, the Sunflower GSP trial rght before out Nationals in the fall, in Eureka, KS. Only reason that it is GSP only is that there are typically 300 dogs entered as it is only a few miles from the Nationals grounds and it is right before our National Amateur Championship begins. However, all other GSP club events in OK, TX, KS, MO, NM, etc. are open to all breeds. As was said, with zillions of weekend AKC trials, The German Pointing Dog, The Pointing Dog, the need to place dogs for nationals, and to finish FC and AFC titles, PLUS our own AF events, The Chicken, NGSPA Nationals at Booneville, Regions-1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc., The Quail, The Hun, The Chukar, there's not enough time in the day for most to run the predominently pointer events. Further, just in Texas, there are 5 or 6 Brit clubs, 3 Weim clubs, a Vizsla club or two,an AKC Setter club. We literally could trial 80 weekends a year, if there were 80 weekends.

If you consider where DFavor lives though. He has had success running shorthairs, Marquardt, etc. has had success running GSPs in pointer/setter championships and weekend AF trials.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:10 am

Karen wrote:DC Britt Haven's Blaze of Glory
MD Sporting Dog Association
2nd Place OSD

Woodland's Money Pit
Spruce Run Bird Dog Club
3rd Place ORSD

In fact Chloe (Woodland's Money Pit) is on Jeanette Tracy's field trial string (check her ad in the christmas edition of the Field)

Unfortunately, Brittanys MUST run (and place) in Brittany club trials in order to qualify annually to run in their National Champion stakes. We'll probably need to pull Chloe back to AKC sometime this season or next if we ever want to try our hand at the national championship with her.

We've also found (and we've been running at least a few AF trials a season for several years) that there are a fair amount of AF judges in our area that won't even look at a Brittany, no matter how good the dog is, and I'm betting that holds true for other breeds aside from EP, ES and RS's too. It's an uphill battle, and until there are enough other breeds consistently entering AF trials, it's most definitely a loosing battle.

We like the venue....we like that we can ride, scout and handle our dogs the way we see fit, without the stupid constraints AKC has attempted to force on us. I just wish I wasn't entering the ONLY Brittanys every time we run AF.

As for dual sanctioned trials....that's a joke. Ever try to enter a 2 yr old derby in an AKC derby stake? You think you'll keep your points if you win? HA!! Our "dual sanctioned" National Gun Dog Championship that is SUPPOSE to have 1 real AF judge there had none this year, and I don't expect any next year either. Any dual sanctioned trial is run under AKC rules, NOT AF rules (like walking is allowed in a horseback stake at a dual sanctioned trial...just for starters).

Even the rules for pro vs. amateur are different between organizations. How the heck to do you sort that out?

Anyway, dual sanctioned means AKC rules and the club paid the $90 for the ad in The Field. That's it.

That's why other breed clubs should limit dogs allowed to run and not include Brittanys.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:14 am

Ultracarry, you totally lost me.

I didn't say that the Brittany club trials were Brittany ONLY trials, just that to qualify to run at our Nationals we have to place at a trial run by a Brittany club. I'm not aware of a single Brittany trial in the Northeast that is closed to other breeds....certainly not the ones we attend, so why would you suggest other breed trials be closed to Brittanys?

And I don't understand how it costs more $$ to run AF than AKC, unless you have to travel much farther for AF. For us, we could run AF or AKC every weekend spring and fall and stay within a 5 hour radius of our home. The AF entry fees are usually a little less than AKC (usually $40 for an amt stake vs. $48 AKC).

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:22 am

I don't know what's happening any more but at one time there were a couple shorthairs out here than did run pointer/setter stakes. The idea for most around this area was that you would simply not get your dog looked at fairly. The AF shooting dogs were running somewhat bigger than a lot of the AKC AA dogs. And a lot of people out here had no use for a trial that didn't include retrieving. But there were several guy's out here, pro's, that ran NGSPA but still stayed away from what John called the pointer/setter trials. Probably a good name for them. Breeds like the Weimaraner were never seen at open AKC trials, they didn't run enough and the Nat Club didn't want them running as most the AKC dog's run. Britt's had regs, as Karen said, to go to a Nat Ch. Seem's to me that they also had to have wins on open class's, DG and AA so those stakes were closed to anyother breed. Haven't followed AF in years but at one time there were a lot of AF Britt trials around, NGSPA has always been active too.

You'll probably never see Wirehairs, Griffons ect in open AF competation, they don't run anywhere near enough and their people like it that way. The DD clud members I doubt would ever run in even AKC much less AF. The people with this group's of dog's are more hunter's than trialers and have little use for dog's that run like trial dogs, reguardless of format. You won't see many if any of them at any open trial. A friend years ago told me I was lucky because I had dogs that would run, he had to teach his to run, he has Wirehairs. If you have to teach a dog to run for AKC, your just out of luck in AF. Funny thing about it is that he was an AKC and AF judge!

At the end of the day, back then all the AKC guy's knew they couldn't run with the AQF dogs. The pro's out here running AF trials did not run in trials with pointer's and setter's. They ran in AF breed specific trials. Even the setter people know that they are not gonna be successful in trials dominated by pointer's, and I can't believe that it's because the setter's can't run with them. A lot of guy's won't do it with setter's because they take so long to mature. The only breed that I know of that can compete at all levels with any dog is the pointer. I think there are GSP's and maybe even a few Britt's around that could but without a taail, they won't get a second chance. Trials are a game, not much more anymore, maybe never were. Kinda like racing cars, you could enter the family sedan in sprint races but your never gonna win or you can take your sprint car to Indy and good luck to you, your not gonna compete. Dog world is no different.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:27 am

Check out California and Arizona on the AKC site. Completely limited to what you can run in. I guess it goes back to having a Brittany win a Brittany event. but I read your post wrong......

If the dogs are good they should be able to win no matter what breed of dogs are entered.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:38 am

Karen,

I am trying to get started in AKC trials here in the midwest , and have been looking at the AKC website quite a bit at events, and I can tell you that at least in the state of IL there are several Britt only trials put on. That is not saying all of them because I intend to run my GSP pup in a britt club trial at the end of Feb. I guess my point is, of all the trials I have looked at and considered, the only breed specific trials i have seen in a 5 state area have been britt trials.

Jim

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:42 am

Tru I think the reason you don't see many pointers in akc trials is that if a pointer guy wins then all you hear is "good for you, you beat a bunch of shorthairs" So it wouldn't even matter really.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:44 am

ultracarry wrote:Check out California and Arizona on the AKC site. Completely limited to what you can run in. I guess it goes back to having a Brittany win a Brittany event. but I read your post wrong......

If the dogs are good they should be able to win no matter what breed of dogs are entered.

Here you go again!!

It has been told to you before that our lowly brittanys have to qualify every year for there nationals. Out here we run closed trials and run 150 dogs in a weekend trial on two courses! Its hard enough to run that many dogs in a weekend why open it up and work our arses off and run closer too 200? It doesnt make sense to run more dogs. Why??? Explain please.

Orginally yes brittany trials were closed more so because they couldnt compete, but we have bred enough pointer blood in that that just isnt the case anymore!!!!!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:54 am

ultracarry wrote:Check out California and Arizona on the AKC site. Completely limited to what you can run in. I guess it goes back to having a Brittany win a Brittany event. but I read your post wrong......

If the dogs are good they should be able to win no matter what breed of dogs are entered.

Yep when a dogs does good it can beat other breeds....and I know you can attest to that

..to bad rusty wasn't going for the set up call back

I heard he did another good job in the open but gave the paw and tail on the call back for retrieve on the second day...Gotta Love dogs :roll:

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:55 am

V-John, there are a plethora of reasons most of them touched on in the body of the thread. Speaking generally, I think Fuzz and Karen are accurate for the masses. Breed specific club trials become a very social deal over time, if you follow the western Brittany circuit and eat what is made in the tent every night you will gain 26 pounds per season. Folks get comfortable in a venue, set their goals based on what they know and there they stay...85.7% of the competitors involved would like to win but their definition of success is theirs alone and in most in doesn't rise to the need of excessive recognition, and beating Twer, Robertson, Steinshower, Hansen, Kelly, Favor (especially Favor), etc..is not on their radar.

It can be intimidating to show up at an open AF trial and your level of success depends on the trial, you and your dog. It is my opinion that there are miles of difference between a 30 minute and a 1 hour dog in any venue. When you add to that the inarguable athletic differences built into genetics in 100 random pointers v 100 random dogs of any other breed you have an uphill battle. I am a brittany guy...but when you ride up to a point and a big white pointer with a 12.00 tail and a bit of head crank, and a stub of any breed next to it with equal intensity, you still have an uphill battle. There are many things to judge in a dogs performance and a good dog in any breed has a chance but we must be realistic, and unless we are, we tend to get bitter quick and blame it on something other than "I GOT MY GLUTEOUS MAXIMUS HANDED TO ME" (Doug, you are a Dr. is that spelled correctly?)

I will be at some of the trials that Favor listed in Ca., and I will take a bet with the proper odds of course that I end up with a placement every couple of years...but it will be based on my the same philosopphy as my shooting...put enough pellets in the air and you will hit something...I am a huge fan of winning by default.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:57 am

Karen here is Blazes AFTCA record link http://www.aftca.org/winners/winners_li ... e+of+Glory

and Choloe's http://www.aftca.org/winners/winners_li ... +Money+Pit

here is the link for K Nine's Tucalota Chance aka Jim http://www.aftca.org/winners/winners_li ... For=k+nine

then Here is Chukar12s dogs wins http://www.aftca.org/winners/winners_li ... or=spanish hmm they do not have his NAFC win posted yet

But yes you take a brittany to a primarily Pointer based AF trial it is up hill and that Bunny as Jim has been called better make some big moves that make the judge take note

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:02 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:Karen,

I am trying to get started in AKC trials here in the midwest , and have been looking at the AKC website quite a bit at events, and I can tell you that at least in the state of IL there are several Britt only trials put on. That is not saying all of them because I intend to run my GSP pup in a britt club trial at the end of Feb. I guess my point is, of all the trials I have looked at and considered, the only breed specific trials i have seen in a 5 state area have been britt trials.

Jim

And the reason is there more Britts being entered than they can run in a weekend. Areas where they can open them up have but with time constraits and so many Britts being trialed they have had to keep them breed specific to keep the club members happy.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:04 am

...Knine, they don't have my Jim Ingle derby classic either...now I am peeved
probably going to quit field trialing if they don't put my name on lists that my parents can go read and tell the old people about

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:06 am

ezzy333 wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Karen,

I am trying to get started in AKC trials here in the midwest , and have been looking at the AKC website quite a bit at events, and I can tell you that at least in the state of IL there are several Britt only trials put on. That is not saying all of them because I intend to run my GSP pup in a britt club trial at the end of Feb. I guess my point is, of all the trials I have looked at and considered, the only breed specific trials i have seen in a 5 state area have been britt trials.

Jim

And the reason is there more Britts being entered than they can run in a weekend. Areas where they can open them up have but with time constraits and so many Britts being trialed they have had to keep them breed specific to keep the club members happy.

Ezzy

the trails that were held here that last few weeks we had one trainer that was running 19 dogs and another they was running 22 dogs in the trial and yes with the time constraints they did close the open formats to Brittanys only

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:07 am

Chukar12 wrote:...Knine, they don't have my Jim Ingle derby classic either...now I am peeved
probably going to quit field trialing if they don't put my name on lists that my parents can go read and tell the old people about

they are a bit slow..You might email them and ask..I know I had to email about a typo in jims reg number and that took a LONG time to get corrected

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:09 am

NO I WON'T E-MAIL THEM...
because I don't care

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:10 am

Chukar12 wrote:NO I WON'T E-MAIL THEM...
because I don't care

LMAO

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:10 am

[quote="fuzznut If I wanted to run with pointers, I would own a pointer! Different game, different dog.

Fuzz[/quote]

This right here answers the question. While all-breed trials are great and can be fun, there are too many differences between the dogs for each dog to get a fair shake. The different breeds of dogs are just that because they have differences and were designed to take advantage of those differences. When those dogs are compared against one another those differences are blended and the dogs all start looking the same.
It is important for each breed owner to understand what they have and what that dog is a specialist at. When a vizsla is competing against a pointer, which specialty are you looking for? Please don't say that they are the same type of dog because there are differences. The standards are different and there is a reason for that. There are vizslas that can compete but are they doing what the original purpose was?

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:18 am

We have no CKC pointing breed trials in ON anymore . Amercican field is what we have and that suits me fine. I ran a GSP for several years- only Gsp around and he did well.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:24 am

Of course this can and will be argued, but I don't really want a Britt that hunts or runs like a Pointer. I would love to have the best britt around but if I want something to compete with a Pointer then I would buy a Pointer. Over time, the mind set has been that the Pointers are the ultimate and all breeds should do away with all of the genetics they have been given and become Pointers. I love Pointers for what they do but I love the Britts for what they do also and I sure don't see one being better than the other overall, as they each have areas where they outshine the others.

It is always fun to beat the other guy, especially when it is their gane, but it just isn't worth giving up the things the Britt does better just to brag that we beat someone else. And the worst of it is all we really beat was some man made set of rules designed for the game of trialing.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:31 am

AHA! Take this Arlette, look what just arrived in the mail.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 am

Chukar12 wrote:AHA! Take this Arlette, look what just arrived in the mail.

And you don't have it framed yet...

That is totally SWEEET Congratulations on that win...Way too cool

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:38 am

There will be no framing, and while I appreciate the accolades...I am over it.
The same dog pointed in the Western Open a week ago and as I rode up chased like a puppy. I have decided to take the certificate put it back in the tube they sent it in and use it to beat the dog for transgressions, you see...I am practical about these things.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:43 am

kninebirddog wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Check out California and Arizona on the AKC site. Completely limited to what you can run in. I guess it goes back to having a Brittany win a Brittany event. but I read your post wrong......

If the dogs are good they should be able to win no matter what breed of dogs are entered.

Yep when a dogs does good it can beat other breeds....and I know you can attest to that ..to bad rusty wasn't going for the set up call back I heard he did another good job in the open but gave the paw and tail on the call back for retrieve on the second day...Gotta Love dogs :roll:

Yep!

The judge even commented to me later and asked why Kimber wasn't being herself. She didn't run half as well as she usually does but I'm not complaining. Even on an off day to get second isn't all that bad.

Brush... I didn't say you had to run extra dogs just open it up and close when you reach your 150 dog max.. its understandable if you want a Brittany to win, that's why you close it in the first place. Nothing is bad about competition unless you need to win.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:45 am

Chukar12 wrote:There will be no framing, and while I appreciate the accolades...I am over it.
The same dog pointed in the Western Open a week ago and as I rode up chased like a puppy. I have decided to take the certificate put it back in the tube they sent it in and use it to beat the dog for transgressions, you see...I am practical about these things.

Oh your not over it..There still is a party that has to be planned LOL

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:46 am

Chukar12 wrote:There will be no framing, and while I appreciate the accolades...I am over it.
The same dog pointed in the Western Open a week ago and as I rode up chased like a puppy. I have decided to take the certificate put it back in the tube they sent it in and use it to beat the dog for transgressions, you see...I am practical about these things.

Oh and didn't a well seasoned dog also do a beautiful retrieve to hand?

Sonny is still very young he is just reminding you of that

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:56 am

quote="Chukar12"]There will be no framing, and while I appreciate the accolades...I am over it.
The same dog pointed in the Western Open a week ago and as I rode up chased like a puppy. I have decided to take the certificate put it back in the tube they sent it in and use it to beat the dog for transgressions, you see...I am practical about these things.[/quote][/quote]

Too funny.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:28 pm

I guess being around Conformation peeps changes my perspective some, but I don't see why people can't just pick a game, bring a dog that can play, and be happy with it.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:17 pm

nikegundog wrote:Hold on, let me get my popcorn. Did you lose a bet?

Just got on this thread and was thinking the same thing. I've only got 45 mins left for lunch, don't know if I should start reading or not. I'm thinking this might take a 6 pack to get through.

Here goes nothin.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:45 pm

Some very good replies, thanks.

It's interesting to read a couple of folks stating that if they wanted a pointer, they would just buy a pointer.
Notably, Ezzy, Hpvizslas... And you said that you want your breed to remain what it is, and do what it is that it does best...
What is it, in your mind, that Britts do best? I'm just curious here. Is it what is written in the Brittany standard?

And Hp, what in your mind is what the original purpose is? I mean, what is do you think is the purpose; their jobs?
I guess it all goes back to what people want out of their dogs and what the purpose of the field trial is.

Please, HP/Ezzy, I'm not trying to call you guys out, but I just kinda wanted your opinion on what you think that your particular breed is to do, I guess. I don't know if I'm quite wording it correctly but...

Regardless, thanks all for the replies. Very good ones.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:52 pm

bigsugar wrote:Tru I think the reason you don't see many pointers in akc trials is that if a pointer guy wins then all you hear is "good for you, you beat a bunch of shorthairs" So it wouldn't even matter really.

That's the spirit! The ugly demon always shows it's head when called upon.

1) Had an AF "Pointer/Setter" judge say to my "Setter" mentor's son "Why is your father running that Brown N*zi Piece of S**t" right at the break away of a "Pointer/Setter" trial. Open Derby and she smoked the course. Owner of the grounds comes up afterwards and said your dog couldn't be placed, she had 3 collars on. Didn't know it was a rule at the time, part of my learning curve.

2) Same grounds, same dog, broke dog stake, Longtail blows the back, handler says "I know honey..How do you back a dog with no tail?" Stacks his dog up, non productive for me..pile of feathers from prior braces. I couldn't have been happier, I took the NP with a big smile and moved on.

3) Same grounds, same dog, following year, 3rd in a 23 dog shooting dog stake...1st time in 47 years anything other than a longtail even placed on those grounds.

Moral of the story......you have to come big, numerous times and have thick skin.

I'm not saying all are like that but there certainly is more prejudice out there than there are judges and handlers willing to accept other breeds. I'll still be going back there, year after year for my whoopins.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:10 pm

Doco I don't share that opinion but that's what gets said. Beating a good dog is beating a good dog to me.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:19 pm

Doco, your dogs get called Brown N*zi Piece of S**t, ours get called groundhogs. We still have a couple placements at longtail trials, despite the name calling, and Jeanette calls me every few weeks to tell me what a great time she's having with Chloe (ok, last time she was somehow attaching a tail on her and calling her a setter, I'm assuming to get her looked at more), but still having a good time.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:25 pm

My small, dark Shooting Dog was braced with what turned out to be the winner in a stake. Afterward, we were talking and he told me my dog did a good job, but he wasn't happy to see him come to the line because he didn't know if his his dog would see mine in time to back him. I offered to buy him a can of paint for his backing dummy. We had quite a discussion covering genetics, breeding, development and fried okra. We came to the conclusion, regarding the backing issue, that since my dog hauled wide and went birdless, it probably made his dog look that much better.

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:34 pm

The vizsla's forebears may have included breeds that the Magyars collected as they swarmed across Europe before settling in Hungary over a thousand years ago. Writings on falconry from the Middle Ages describe dogs of vizsla type. The Hungarian plains were rich in game, and hunters wanted a fast but close-working dog that could not only point and retrieve birds but trail mammals over thick ground cover. The breed was unquestionably established by the 18th century, having found special favor with barons and warlords of the time. By the end of the 19th century, however, the breed had greatly declined in numbers. He was revived through the discovery and careful breeding of about a dozen good specimens. World War II spread the vizsla throughout the world. Hungarians fleeing Russian occupation took their pointing dogs to various other countries, including America, where their handsome appearance and exceptional hunting abilities were soon appreciated. AKC recognition came in 1960. Once again, the vizsla quickly gained admirers, and the breed is now regularly seen in the field, show ring and home. He is also sometimes called the Hungarian vizsla or Hungarian pointer.

The earliest pointers were used in the 17th century not to point birds, but to point hare, which coursing greyhounds were then unleashed to pursue. When wing-shooting became popular in the 18th century, the pointer found his place as an adept bird locator. The ideal dog would find game, indicate its location and remain still until the hunter could get ready to shoot, a task that was somewhat slow with the old flintlock guns. The early pointer probably included in his genetic makeup some of the most talented breeds in existence: greyhounds, foxhounds and bloodhounds, as well as an old type of setting spaniel. Different countries developed different pointer breeds. The large, ponderous Spanish pointer was crossed with the English pointer to increase pointing ability, but at the expense of agility. With the advent of self-loading guns in the 19th century, the slower working traits of the Spanish pointer became undesirable, so the crosses were discontinued. In the 19th century, crosses with setters were made, perhaps to improve disposition and make the dogs more amenable to training and less prone to try to catch the game. Pointers became popular for recreational hunting on large estates. Ideally, two pointers were used so that the hunter could locate the bird precisely by cross-referencing the dogs' points. When dog shows came in vogue in the late 19th century, pointers were among the most prominent of the breeds shown. Pointers remain very popular as competitive field trial dogs and recreational hunters; however, they are not as popular as pets as many other sporting breeds.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Moral of the story......you have to come big, numerous times and have thick skin.

Well sheesh, that sounds a heckuva lot more noble than my approach which is to stumble and bumble thru with a bird and hope the rest of the field sucks!! No shame in winnin' ugly!!

I've been thinking about this, back to when I started doing these things, and fact is I didn't know any better, didn't know my GSP's didn't belong at AF trials. Nobody referred to the trials as pointer/setter trials and the premiums certainly didn't mention any breed restrictions. Showed up (and heartily welcomed by all BTW) with my young GSP that had been hunted, hunted, and hunted some more - entered him in the AA derby and the SD derby since I really didn't know the difference. Took 3rd in the SD Derby (had a find on a pair of huns) and 3rd in the AA - judge said he had the AA won but I squallered/begged/pleaded him off a big finishing cast a minute before time because I thought I was supposed to have him at time - freakin' newbie. Judges gave me one of the best compliments (I guess...) I can get for any of my dogs - "looks like he's been hunted alot".

Didn't hurt that at this first AF trial I went and competed in, Dan Hoke was there running his GSP's in the championship and taking RU I think with Ben. Just seemed like the way it was - if you don't know you don't belong, you don't feel out of place! So I guess I just sort of Beverly Hillbillied my way into it - blissful ignorance, the embarrassing cousin that shows up at holidays. Show up, run, do your best, repeat.

I do wonder, if they had been called pointer/setter trials as they seem to be referred to here if I'd have ever gone...?