Breed Specific Trials

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:49 pm

John,
I am mobile right now but the information that I posted is just a little of what you can find. Vizslas are closer working dogs that are meant to find both fur and feather. Doesn't man that there aren't some that can range farther out but the original purpose was to be closer working. Pointers that were breed here in America were bred to range father out and cover ground.
No reason to try and blend the two breeds, they do different things and there is no problem with that. Have both and can see the difference. If the vizsla is always pushed to compete in the pointer world, it will lose some of what makes it such a good family dog that so many love. Not knocking et breed but you asked why not more all breed trials, and that its why believe it is important to distinguishthe breeds

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:04 pm

whats run got to do with where the dog sleeps?

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:57 pm

bigsugar wrote:Tru I think the reason you don't see many pointers in akc trials is that if a pointer guy wins then all you hear is "good for you, you beat a bunch of shorthairs" So it wouldn't even matter really.

That sums it up right there. We are looked down upon.

Like Doco said too, he ran his shorthair in a pointer trial and what happened? A pointer failed to back the shorthair and handler has the b*lls to say "I know honey, how do you back a dog with no tail"?! Meanwhile, the shorthair was up front and found the bird first...so what does that say about his pointer then? He obviously got his arse handed to him. And what, a tail finds more birds? Too many stupid comments made from pointer people around here, not all pointer people, but enough where I don't want to be in that situation. You need to run under a great judge to even have your dog looked at! IMHO, you won't get an honest look from most pointer judges because all other dogs are looked down upon. They can keep their "superior" dogs to themselves!

Post by **topher40** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:04 pm

remmy wrote:
bigsugar wrote:Tru I think the reason you don't see many pointers in akc trials is that if a pointer guy wins then all you hear is "good for you, you beat a bunch of shorthairs" So it wouldn't even matter really.
That sums it up right there. We are looked down upon.

Like Doco said too, he ran his shorthair in a pointer trial and what happened? A pointer failed to back the shorthair and handler has the b*lls to say "I know honey, how do you back a dog with no tail"?! Meanwhile, the shorthair was up front and found the bird first...so what does that say about his pointer then? He obviously got his arse handed to him. And what, a tail finds more birds? Too many stupid comments made from pointer people around here, not all pointer people, but enough where I don't want to be in that situation. You need to run under a great judge to even have your dog looked at! IMHO, you won't get an honest look from most pointer judges because all other dogs are looked down upon. They can keep their "superior" dogs to themselves!

I must be a great judge then, thanks Remmy! I really dont care about the tail, breed, sex, ect. I care about the dog when I judge. Maybe that makes me exceptional, maybe not. I have judged Johns dog and I love that little girl. I hope she doesnt do well in the spring though for selfish reasons....

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:06 pm

Remmy I agree with you but it's just the truth of the matter.

I started in dogs with brittanys. I had some fine dogs too from all over the country. I sold my brittanys when I decided to play the AFTCA game and I could not win. It made no difference how nice of a dog I had. I couldn't win. I could sneak a placement in ther every now and again. By no means am I here saying I had every trial in the bag won but I can remember and amt shooting dog half hour stake where I had a brittany (son of Sparky for the brittany folks) who laid the wood on everyone else with a huge race and 4 broke finds. I was third behind a pointer with no birdwork and another pointer with one find. Judge said my old dog hunted too much. I've been on the other side of it too. It's unfortunate but it's just the way it is. I sold the britts and bought a Miller bred dog. He wasn't half the dog I got rid of but he won more. Go figure.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:19 pm

Out here in UT I see pointer/setters all the time at both AF and AKC trials. And they are all FDSB setters/pointers also. I have run my pointer in both and will run my shorthair in both also.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:28 pm

Bare with me now...lets see if I can write this so it's understood. ..I believe Bird dog competitions were established to determine the best dog for breeding purposes.

Scenario #1: We run our Wirehair Pointing Griffons (WPG') in a all breed AF or all Breed AKC event to determine who the best WPG is. Generally, WPG hunt differently than... lets say a pointer. The Pointer wins and we still don't know who the best WPG is. As an owner of a female WPG I still don't know who to breed my dog to. I bred my female WPG to my buddies dog because he says it's good.

Scenario #2: Breed clubs limit events to a specific breed so the people who own that breed can determine who the best breed representatives are. They hold breed specific trials and determine who the best dogs are for that day. Now that those representatives are known other WPG people can breed to them.

With Senario #2 the WPG breed as a whole gets better because the "best" are being bred

No offense to anyone, didn't mean to pick on WPG's, but I had to exagerate to make a point ...and over simplified to keep it simple especially for you pointer owners

Just Kidding!!

Replace "WPG" with your favorite breed

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:28 pm

This right here answers the question. While all-breed trials are great and can be fun, there are too many differences between the dogs for each dog to get a fair shake. The different breeds of dogs are just that because they have differences and were designed to take advantage of those differences. When those dogs are compared against one another those differences are blended and the dogs all start looking the same.
It is important for each breed owner to understand what they have and what that dog is a specialist at. When a vizsla is competing against a pointer, which specialty are you looking for? Please don't say that they are the same type of dog because there are differences. The standards are different and there is a reason for that. There are vizslas that can compete but are they doing what the original purpose was?

I agree...FT has the tendency to "homogenize" the breeds...not always...but to mix it up at the top where the Pointers hold the high ground, a lot of breeds will have to change....smaller for some...slighter for others...longer legs for others....and many of these breeds were never intended to be AA or even 1/4 mile dogs. FT is fine....but when the longtails start dictating what other breeds look like, and perform...its gone to far for me. If I wanted a Pointer, I would get one.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:03 pm

hpvizslas wrote:John,
I am mobile right now but the information that I posted is just a little of what you can find. Vizslas are closer working dogs that are meant to find both fur and feather. Doesn't man that there aren't some that can range farther out but the original purpose was to be closer working. Pointers that were breed here in America were bred to range father out and cover ground.
No reason to try and blend the two breeds, they do different things and there is no problem with that. Have both and can see the difference. If the vizsla is always pushed to compete in the pointer world, it will lose some of what makes it such a good family dog that so many love. Not knocking et breed but you asked why not more all breed trials, and that its why believe it is important to distinguishthe breeds

Field trials, to me, were meant to take the extremes of the breed, the ones that display the most drive, intelligence, and desire and breed those together to provide the best dogs to breed to. To me, to breed the best to the best. Nothing was said about blending the breeds, but rather, competing on a level with the pointer.

I looked at the AKC standard and saw NOTHING about closer working, finding fur, or anything like that. Can you point that out to me in the AKC breed standard?
I did see something in the Australian Vizsla Club standard, but not in the AKC. It did say something in the history of the breed about fur though. But nothing about range.

And, HP, I'm not trying to call you out, I hope you don't take it that way. I know what you are saying.
And to be honest, I don't know anyone who hunts fur with their vizslas anymore. (This is where everyone with a vizsla and a rabbit picture posts it.

)

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:04 pm

Gordon Guy wrote:Bare with me now...lets see if I can write this so it's understood. ..I believe Bird dog competitions were established to determine the best dog for breeding purposes.

Scenario #1: We run our Wirehair Pointing Griffons (WPG') in a all breed AF or all Breed AKC event to determine who the best WPG is. Generally, WPG hunt differently than... lets say a pointer. The Pointer wins and we still don't know who the best WPG is. As an owner of a female WPG I still don't know who to breed my dog to. I bred my female WPG to my buddies dog because he says it's good.

Scenario #2: Breed clubs limit events to a specific breed so the people who own that breed can determine who the best breed representatives are. They hold breed specific trials and determine who the best dogs are for that day. Now that those representatives are known other WPG people can breed to them.

With Senario #2 the WPG breed as a whole gets better because the "best" are being bred

No offense to anyone, didn't mean to pick on WPG's, but I had to exagerate to make a point ...and over simplified to keep it simple especially for you pointer owners Just Kidding!!

Replace "WPG" with your favorite breed

Perfectly said.

I will add my opinion...horse back field trials are not the end all of bird dogs for most people! I like them but the are not the "ultimate" for me!

Maybe if they added a duck search and track I might be more interested...

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:08 pm

birddog1968 wrote:whats run got to do with where the dog sleeps?

I kinda wondered that myself. I know a sixty some year old retired college professor who lives with four pointers and a golden in his house. I have four vizslas laying in bed with me as I type this.

And Kroll, she's back, er healthy, but a bit chunky. Trying to run the fat off of her.

I might not be able to hit as many trials as I'd like with the medical bills and such. How do I get your lifestyle again ?

Mr. Cooper, good point in that I think its very much a "different strokes" for different folks. Just a matter of finding the right breeder who is breeding the type of dog you want, I suppose.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:09 pm

I don't think WPGs can run in AKC trials.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:13 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I don't think WPGs can run in AKC trials.

This made me laugh Felicia. Thanks.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:16 pm

Let me add that dogs like Larue's dog Max and Dr N's CJ are the ultimate for me... dogs that prove their worth in multiple venues including but not only field trials.

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:54 pm

[quot can remember and amt shooting dog half hour stake where I had a brittany (son of Sparky for the brittany folks) who laid the wood on everyone else with a huge race and 4 broke finds. I was third behind a pointer with no birdwork and another pointer with one find. Judge said my old dog hunted too much.e][/quote]
I believe this is the reason that many people choose not to run their dogs in the AF trials. There are many people that believe you should never say that a dog hunts to much! Perhaps some of the other venues focus more on hunting than running. SCK

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:36 pm

V-John wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I don't think WPGs can run in AKC trials.
This made me laugh Felicia. Thanks.

It's not a joke. The parent club won't allow it.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:16 pm

hpvizslas wrote:[quote="fuzznut If I wanted to run with pointers, I would own a pointer! Different game, different dog.

Fuzz

This right here answers the question. While all-breed trials are great and can be fun, there are too many differences between the dogs for each dog to get a fair shake. The different breeds of dogs are just that because they have differences and were designed to take advantage of those differences. When those dogs are compared against one another those differences are blended and the dogs all start looking the same.
It is important for each breed owner to understand what they have and what that dog is a specialist at. When a vizsla is competing against a pointer, which specialty are you looking for? Please don't say that they are the same type of dog because there are differences. The standards are different and there is a reason for that. There are vizslas that can compete but are they doing what the original purpose was?[/quote]

I attended a few trials last fall that I give the club much kudos. Instead of taking my money and giving me heck about what I ran, they limited certain stakes to just their breed. I respect that. The walking am stakes were just for the club breed. The open stakes were just that. Open. I personally feel that if you post a trial and it says open to all pointing breeds then all's fair in love and war. If you don't want your dog judged with a pointer or a setter or a rebel shorthair, you have the right to not run. The problem is that while I am sure most clubs would prefer to run just their breed, they can't get the numbers to run breed specific. Some can but most couldn't.

I will run my dog in both AF and AKC. I have three kids in school and a wife and a job to pay for them. I would love to travel all over the country with a horse, a few dogs, and a dream but not gonna happen. Right near me there are a very few AF trials available, but there are several AKC trials a month. Yes, I have a pointer and yes people will not like seeing me show up, but I will not just run 2 or 3 trials a season just to run breed specific. If I log onto AKC and pull up the trial list and find a trial close and it says open to all pointing breeds, more than likely there will be at least one pointer in the show. If you don't want her there run breed specific.

Joe

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:31 pm

remmy wrote: Like Doco said too, he ran his shorthair in a pointer trial and what happened? A pointer failed to back the shorthair and handler has the b*lls to say "I know honey, how do you back a dog with no tail"?! Meanwhile, the shorthair was up front and found the bird first...so what does that say about his pointer then? He obviously got his arse handed to him. And what, a tail finds more birds? Too many stupid comments made from pointer people around here, not all pointer people, but enough where I don't want to be in that situation. You need to run under a great judge to even have your dog looked at! IMHO, you won't get an honest look from most pointer judges because all other dogs are looked down upon. They can keep their "superior" dogs to themselves!

Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality.

I have run under many "pointer" judges and felt that the look they gave was honest, fair and founded in integrity with the unfaltering belief that they were looking for the best dog that day - without exception. They were also some of the most knowledgeable and giving dog men I have run with.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:39 pm

Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality.

"Winners train, losers complain." MV.

Not calling you or anyone a loser. You want to win? Train for everything.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:52 pm

brad27 wrote:
Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality.
"Winners train, losers complain." MV.

Not calling you or anyone a loser. You want to win? Train for everything.

And if the fellow who is accused of making the excuse for his pointer cares about winning you can bet that before the next weekend he would be training.
I always said that if there was something happened in a trial where my dogs did not know how to conduct themselves it was my fault for not exposing/training them for it. The hard part is anticipating all the various scenarios that can happen.
I was "invited" to come and train for a day on a number of occasions because there were pointer/setter boys who didn't know anyone else with short tailed dogs who was serious about working them. Every training day always included a backing session. My dogs got lots of steadiness practice.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:12 pm

slistoe wrote:
brad27 wrote:
Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality.
"Winners train, losers complain." MV.

Not calling you or anyone a loser. You want to win? Train for everything.
And if the fellow who is accused of making the excuse for his pointer cares about winning you can bet that before the next weekend he would be training.
I always said that if there was something happened in a trial where my dogs did not know how to conduct themselves it was my fault for not exposing/training them for it. The hard part is anticipating all the various scenarios that can happen.
I was "invited" to come and train for a day on a number of occasions because there were pointer/setter boys who didn't know anyone else with short tailed dogs who was serious about working them. Every training day always included a backing session. My dogs got lots of steadiness practice.

Our training days at the club include my pointer, three shorthairs, a red setter, and an english setter. We spend an hour swapping off pointing and then bringing in a backing dog. We change it up everytime. Each of the dogs gets a chance to back a different dog. They don't know not to back a long tail or a short tail. There is a lot that these dogs know naturally and the rest is up to us to teach. If they don't know it and you get burned in a trial, then you need to find a way to fix it. If you don't it's on you.

Joe

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:13 pm

bigsugar wrote: I had a brittany (son of Sparky for the brittany folks)

I had a daughter of Sparky.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:23 pm

I have never even heard of a dog not backing a short tailed dog. A dog on point is a dog on point regardless of tail IMO. I have had both EP's and GSP's for years and have never had a problem or heard of anyone having a problem of dogs not backing dogs because of a tail.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:24 pm

sckwest1 wrote: There are many people that believe you should never say that a dog hunts to much!

Yeah, like the fellow who was livid when I failed his dog in the Field Dog Test. A full 7 minutes I sat watching the dog snuffle through a 5 ft. by 15 ft. willow clump (I may be a little too liberal with the size) all the while listening to "Where's the bird?" "Hunt him out of there." "Get the bird." "Find it boy." with a few interjections to the gunners who were patiently standing by ""bleep" that dog can HUNT!" His complaint to the club was about having "stupid field trial judges".

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I have never even heard of a dog not backing a short tailed dog. A dog on point is a dog on point regardless of tail IMO. I have had both EP's and GSP's for years and have never had a problem or heard of anyone having a problem of dogs not backing dogs because of a tail.

Then you still have some learning and seeing to do. Do you disbelieve the low tail as well? How about lack of intensity/loose head? Seen that one too.

How about a general problem of dogs not backing dogs? Have you heard of that at least? And what was the reason for that - spots on the dog?

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:47 pm

Just had to side track this a bit...

That would be a Great Dane he is Honoring......

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:02 am

Nice pic - nice dog.

doco · Post by **doco** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:16 am

slistoe wrote:Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality

C'mon Slis, A standing dog is a standing dog. White, brown, orange grey, I don't care what color it is. Heidi's tail is as 12:00 it can get, and she stays jacked up with no let down....see below. The dog blew that back at 15 - 20 feet. I'm not cryin foul on the dog, the trainer, or the "Pointer/Setter" guys, just the reality of the attitude that has been carried on through the generations of most. Most being better than 50%, I would never accuse all. I'm not blowing smoke up her butt, just not willing to accept unnecessary grumbling and excuses and reasons for an elite dog not backing.

I've earned the respect of running my shorthairs there, but it's like the ugly duckling walking to the line as I lead her up from the trailer. Yeah man she turns heads, I assume it's because we look that good. :roll: :roll: Good thing I started with a Setter guy there otherwise I am sure I would not have been given the time of day or directions to the breakaway.

As for good dogs. A good dog is a good dog. JCButtry's little pointer was a bootlicker the first time he ran it in a puppy stake at our Club GSP trial and he'll admit the same. We still placed her based on her potential as a future bird dog. What a crackin high tail, absolutely gorgeous and now listen to him and how she runs. The few judging mentors I have gave me some of the best advice. Place dogs that make the hair on your neck stand up, that you want to take home or is worthy of running in a Championship. It certainly puts things in perspective and makes judging a heck of a lot easier when sorting through the field. Every dog has their day.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:26 am

doco wrote:
C'mon Slis, A standing dog is a standing dog.

Yeah, you go with that. It fits your attitude better.

I can only relay what I have seen and know to be true.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:31 am

The only Breed Specific trial I run my Wires in are our Nationals, oh and our Classic which is open to Wires only. Other then that, it's all breed competition. I have run them in a couple dual sanctioned trials as well.There aren't too many Wire only trials or stakes... maybe some puppy or derby, maybe a club will hold a closed gun dog here and there, but it's not many across the country. We have to play in the open pond! And it's made our dogs better!

I understand why breed clubs close stakes and trials to their breeds, I don't like it when I can't go and enter, but I understand it. It really is a double edged sword though. Many of the closed stakes have a lot of dogs in them (to make points) that really are not competitive dogs to begin with. Many of those dogs would never win in any open to all breed competition - so beating them is an easy win for the good dogs, but isn't proving a whole lot. But, it does show those other owners what it takes to have a really good dog and win. You hope that they will endeavor to reach higher and train harder and get themselves a really good dog of their own if they want to be competitive and win.

The thoughts that one breed trials are more social events then anything else might be true, but is that really a bad thing sometimes? Somehow, someway those who are totally new to the sport have to get their feet wet, have to go and see what the dogs are capable of doing, what a good dog is! Club trials open to their breed only is an entry level for some of these folks...... now they want a good puppy, from good breeding, and they want to bring home the blue ribbon. This is a good thing for our sport, and our dogs.

The other side of that sword is the dogs that finish only in those closed trials, against dicey competition, and then go on to brag that they have a FC! It's not difficult to look up where and against what, and those of us want to know- know. In my breed, Im not impressed with a Wire that has gotten the majority of it's wins in Wire only competition because I know what that competition probably was. Or, if that FC doesn't come and run in our National Ch trial....how come? Now remember, I'm talking my breed only. Maybe those other breed people feel different about it. OK with me

And for those of you with Pointers who are double registered... bring em on! Run em. Let the best dog win on that day. If your dog does the best job then he deserves to win, but that works the other way too. If that docked tailed dog does the best, don't be crying. I never cry or moan when I've truly been beat by a better dog, I do moan when I've been beaten by a judge who has an agenda. And we all know they do exist.

I love to watch good pointers!!!!!!!! I love to watch great dogs of all breeds!
Fuzz

doco · Post by **doco** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:59 am

slistoe wrote:Yeah, you go with that. It fits your attitude better.

I wasn't trying to come accross with attitude, and I wasn't trying to offend anyone so I'm not sure what you mean.

slistoe wrote: I can only relay what I have seen and know to be true.

Ditto

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:07 am

I wrote this short piece back in 2004.

The Power of Competition

The view from the back of the gallery was breathtaking. The sun was low in the evening sky, casting long shadows from the horses. A slight breeze fanned the steam rising from the sweating horses. Whispers in the gallery had a sense of excitement. One of the handlers eagerly called his dog on point, quickly we rode to the find hoping not to miss a single second of this performance. The handler dismounted and casually strode to the front of the dog, the bird was flown and all was in order. The dog was sent on, and while the handler moved to the front time was called and the gallery was alive with chatter. "Who's going to beat that?" said one. Somebody else was overheard, "I don't know, that's the best dog I've seen." And so it goes at every field trial that I've had the pleasure of riding. The discussion usually centers around whose dog did the "best" job.

Best. That's quite a term. Best for what? Best for a Pointer? Best for a Gordon Setter? Or, as seems to be the case today, best for a pointing dog. There seems to be an unwritten standard by which all pointing dogs are to be judged. I'd like to quote two paragraphs from the Melting Pot, an editorial written by Craig Doherty.

"When we get to the aesthetic values of a competitive performance there is a set of universal criteria that all seem to agree on. We admire a dog that goes to the objectives with a fast and fluid gait. We expect the dog to work to the front and have eye appeal both in motion and on point. A dog that hits its bird hard and has great style on point is going to be more impressive than a dog that slows and potters around before it finally points. We want a dog that will handle even at extreme distance. A dog that goes out on a limb and holds bird until found is also going to impress the majority. And possibly most important, we want to see the dog finish its hour going away."

"If this trend continues, the distinctions between the breeds will diminish to the point where the only way you can tell the difference between an Irish, Gordon or English setter will be by the color of it's hair, while the only way you'll be able to tell the difference between an English and German pointer will be the length of its tail. From the perspective of someone breeding show dogs, this is a serious problem - for the rest, it may just be the final step in the naturalization of the various continental breeds to becoming American dogs. Although the melting pot theory of explaining the history of the United States may be extreme suspect when it come to people, open and fair field trial competition may turn out to be a true melting pot for bird dogs."

If Mr. Doherty is correct, and I believe he is, there is an unwritten standard to which all pointing dogs are judged. These unique breeds share one common feature, pointing upland birds. Isn't it odd that unique breeds, originally bred for specific terrain, climate or working manner are all judged to the same unwritten standard? They should not be subjected to some arbitrary standard in the field that covers all pointing breeds. As an example, the Spinone Italiano recognized by the AKC in 2000, has been characterized as a dog "...that does not hunt for themselves but for their master" and is "not too fast in their speed while searching out game." (source SCOA) While the AKC breed standard states, "He has a remarkable tendency for an extended and fast trotting gait." Now, how will that measure up to the unwritten standard applied in an all-breed stake? Well the answer will be, it doesn't. Should people that have Spinone's really care if their dogs can win in all pointing breed competition? I rather think, they don't.

Are restricted breed trials the answer? Well, yes and no. Conceivably restricted breed trials face a problem, lack of dogs in the area. What does a person do if the their area of the country doesn't have enough of "their" breed to hold a trial, or maybe there is a small group of dogs but not enough to make a major stake? In the AKC a dog needs a win in a stake that has 13 or more starters, without a major a Championship cannot be awarded. All-breed trials would then be their only venue. Yes, there will be individuals that manage to hold their own in all pointing breed competition and these very dogs, when entered in restricted breed trials, can help keep the bar high when entered in the restricted breed trial.

Looking back at the Spinone example, how will they fair in all-breed competition? It's quite possible that in an area of a larger population of dogs, enough to have Spinone only trials, dogs of lesser caliber could become Field Champions. Dogs of higher caliber in areas with smaller populations competing in all-breed trials may not be able to finish titles. The dog world is pretty fickle when it comes to breeding dogs. Most people seem unable to see the quality of the dog unless it has a title. I'm not advocating making it easier to finish Field Champions, just that in the scope of dog breeding, advances may be brought about faster by breeding to the better dogs and a restricted breed stake (ie: setter only stakes) can identify those animals and help accomplish that goal.

In a perfect world we could have competitive field trials and award Field Championships without having a "Melting Pot" effect. Is such a system conceivable? I guess it is, but I rather doubt it ever could be practical. Judges would have to be versed in each breed's working standard and not reward dogs that trend to the unwritten standard that is in use today.

In closing, a couple questions need to be answered. Is the only method for breed improvement through all-breed competition or can the breed be improved through a restricted breed format? Are there performance qualities unique to Gordon Setters? And if so, isn't it time that we put that to paper. By doing nothing we stand to lose some of the qualities that we hold dear, and that my friend, will be a sad day.

© 2004 Dan Voss

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:16 am

If I show up at the local bar in a 3 piece suit I will turn heads. If I complain that everyone was staring at me, they don't have a problem.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:39 am

There are several britt clubs in our area who hold britt only trials. In fact the one time they did open their trial to all breeds they nearly got sweeped by red dogs, so they decided as a club to close the trail once more to britts and we are no longer able to run, except for in a 3 stake - 2 of which are walking. The Buckeye Brittany closes its trials and the Ohio Brittany closes most of their stakes. So Karen, if you consider Ohio to be in the Northeast then you must not go to those trials. ???

Also, I think the whole business about competing in an all-breed trial and not getting a fair shake is bunk. We don't get better dogs by continually competing against the same old same old. The idea of the field trial is to push the envelope and get better breeding stock for the future of the breed. I am not content with what some people THINK a vizsla should do. No sir. I want a good brid dog. i don't care how long their fur is, how long their tail is and what color of coat they have. i expect pretty much the same kind of performance from all of them. Different characteristics on how they accomplish this, yes - but a good performance can be a big-ranging shooting dog or a good gundog run that is a little closer.

I hate running in all vizsla trials and usually the only one I run in is the nationals. I run in a circuit of trials that has some of the best talent in this area, and those are gsp's, pointers, setters, britts, weims and others. I LOVE IT! My dogs are better for it. I am better for it. The sport is better for it and believe it or not, in my opinion so are the breeds. But I am only one ma with one opinion.

Justin

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:43 am

Breed specific does not mean different breed standards. If the brits run a brit only event and there are 22 all age dogs entered, and I am judging, I judge based on the all age standard. I do NOT judge on a pointer standard. Whatever the grounds, the dogs had better punch the horizon if possible, the dogs had better have extreme speed and power, and they had better at least run to the limits of the grounds, PERIOD. I don't see anywhere written the brittany all age standard nor do I recognize that fictitious standard. There are NO Weim all age or gun dog standards. There are standards for each stake. If a judge doesn't understand those standards, then he/she should not be judging!!

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:48 am

True dat trublue

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:12 am

Ohio is not in our Eastern region (they fall into the East Central region for us). I went through AKC's website of scheduled Brittany field trials this coming season and here are the brittany trials listed that open at least some of their stakes to all breeds. The ones listed first (hopefully in red) are the trials I found to have all of their stakes open to all breeds. We're not all "exclusionists". I say bring it on. If your dog puts down a performance that beats mine, good for you! We ride lots to watch good dogs, regardless of breed.

Hudson Valley Brittany Club opens their stakes
Southern New England Brittany Club opens theirs
Central New England Brittany Club opens theirs
North Jersey Brittany Club opens theirs (except their "classic" OLGD stake that runs during the week in the spring)
Delvaly Brittany club opens theirs
Anthracite Brittany Club opens theirs
Maryland Brittany Club opens theirs
Mid Florida Brittany Club opens theirs
Susquehanna Brittany Club opens their gundog stakes to all breeds
Grand Canyon Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Central New Mexico Brittany club opens all stakes to all breeds
California Brittany Club has all stakes open
Midwest Brittany Club opens all their stakes to all breeds
Western Michigan Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Skyline Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Greater Milwaukee Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Brittany club of upper new york open all stakes to all breeds
Idaho Brittany Club opens alls takes to all breeds
St. Croix Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Wasatch Front Brittany Club opens all stakes to all breeds
Illinois Brittany Club has all stakes open
Northern VA Brittany Club opens all but 2 stakes to all breeds
Sahauro Brittany Club opens at least some of their stakes
Greater Phoenix Brittay club opens at least some of their stakes
Fort Worth Brittany Club opens all but 1 stake to all breeds
Volunteer Brittany Club closes 2 of their stakes
Georgia Brittany Club has 2 stakes open to all breeds (ALGD and OLDG)
San Diego Brittnay Club has 1 stake (AGD) open to all breeds
La Salle Brittany Club has 1 stake (AGD) open to all breeds
Bama Brittany club has all but 1 stake (OAA) open to all breeds
Northern Oklahoma Brittany Club has all but 1 stake (OAA) open to all breeds
Blue Bonnet Brittany Club has all but their AA stakes open to all breeds
Buckeye Brittany Club opens WP, WD and OLGD to all breeds (at least this season)
Iowa Brittany Club opens all their stakes to all breeds at some of their trials
Southern Kansas opens 2 of their stakes to all breeds
Oregon Brittany Club opens amt. stakes to all breeds
Missouri Valley Brittany Club opens some of their stakes to all breeds

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:19 am

Unless the club opens all stakes, I don't see much reason to go when I have multiple dogs on the string.

I agree with you Karen, but the local Brittany clubs here in Ohio do not. What a bummer. The onyl reason they open the Open Gun dog stakes is to attract more pro entries and the walking stakes are nice, but I really prefer the horseback stakes. It's just too bad any club at all sees the need to close their trials. Brittany or any other.

Oh well, guess I am just on an island

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:23 am

Justin, the V's trial entry is growing great guns! Why do you think that is? Back in the 80's there were a lot of V's trialing, and then it seemed to dwindle, but is now growing again. Good for them and for the breed, just wondering why?

Agree that in general, all breed competition is best to determine the best dogs out there. Even if someone never wanted to trial, they sure can learn a lot by watching the best dogs run and do their thing. Those that never do, and then complain about trial dogs are missing the bigger picture in my opinion. It's like me not wanting a pointer, but I sure can learn a lot of what a dog is capable of by watching them!

Fuzz

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:25 am

Lol one stake open to all breeds doesn't count.

Plus some trials on AKC website are posted as open but when you call the secretary they will tell you it is closed to Brittany only.

It's understandable for the weim clubs, vizsla clubs, Brittany clubs, etc. To have a closed trial prior to or after a national event, but every weekend ? Come on. There has to be some sort of reciprocity for the other breeds opening their events to all breeds.

hpvizslas · Post by **hpvizslas** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:29 am

V-John wrote:
hpvizslas wrote:John,
I am mobile right now but the information that I posted is just a little of what you can find. Vizslas are closer working dogs that are meant to find both fur and feather. Doesn't man that there aren't some that can range farther out but the original purpose was to be closer working. Pointers that were breed here in America were bred to range father out and cover ground.
No reason to try and blend the two breeds, they do different things and there is no problem with that. Have both and can see the difference. If the vizsla is always pushed to compete in the pointer world, it will lose some of what makes it such a good family dog that so many love. Not knocking et breed but you asked why not more all breed trials, and that its why believe it is important to distinguishthe breeds
Field trials, to me, were meant to take the extremes of the breed, the ones that display the most drive, intelligence, and desire and breed those together to provide the best dogs to breed to. To me, to breed the best to the best. Nothing was said about blending the breeds, but rather, competing on a level with the pointer.

I looked at the AKC standard and saw NOTHING about closer working, finding fur, or anything like that. Can you point that out to me in the AKC breed standard?
I did see something in the Australian Vizsla Club standard, but not in the AKC. It did say something in the history of the breed about fur though. But nothing about range.

And, HP, I'm not trying to call you out, I hope you don't take it that way. I know what you are saying.
And to be honest, I don't know anyone who hunts fur with their vizslas anymore. (This is where everyone with a vizsla and a rabbit picture posts it. )

John,
Discussing with you is like someone trying to discuss with me. We won't back down from our opinion without solid proof.

The AKC breed standard has been changed since the original in 1960, it changes to fit what the current trend of the VCA is at that time and can be changed something like every five years. I am not talking about the current standard but the original purpose of the breed.
I am also not saying that there should not be all breed trials. They are a great way to get out and compete with your dog, if you enjoy it than continue. And I think everyone should go to these trials and have a good time. However, you yourself have called them "Pointer Trials" several times. The pointers are at the top of the game, a wise man told me that you will go through hundreds of "your breed here" to find one that can compete with Pointers on a high level. The chances of finding a good pointer are greater than finding a good "YBH". Pointers have less of an uphill battle to climb because they are not handicapped by not being a pointer.
I have heard that you have a special Vizsla that can compete and there are several others that are out there but until they win the "Big One" multiple times at Aimes, the Pointer will still be at the top. And so breeders look for ways to "blend" the breeds to get them to that level.
Good luck in the future and have fun at this game.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:14 am

I would agree with closed trials IF the judges judged against the standard of each stake and didn't put up the best of what they saw. Putting a short gun dog up with three clean finds does not make the dog an all age dog, it just makes the dog the best of what the judges saw, and lowers the overall quality of the breed by a small part. Judge against the standard and all breeds would get stronger in time. Because an X breed was the stakes best means squat. The dog should WARRANT championship points!! Meaning it had better fit the standard of the stake, no argument, unless breeds want their dog to go backward.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:16 am

I can't put my finger on why there are more v's competing than in the past. I know we have seen a down turn locally in the total number, however the total number of what I consider to be comptetive has definitely increased. People appear to be breeding better or training better and when you ar emore competitive it definitely makes the whole experience more enjoyable - which may be one of the reasons why numbers are up.

I know in the midwest there is a large number of vizslas and they traditionally have large entries. I think breeders are doing a good job of pulling new participants in. I know MOST trials I go to are a LOT of fun to be at, win or lose. While competitive, they are very social events where we like to hang out, catch up, eat good food, drink good drink and generall have fun. There are your outcasts and a-holes, but they are definitely the minority.

Ultra - I agree. One stake open is not opening the trial. It's a slap in the face. The way I handle it is this. They ask me to judge. i ask if I can run dogs, since I am campaigning my dogs. If they say no. I say no. The vast majority of judges are starting to do this in our area.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:49 am

slistoe wrote:Nice pic - nice dog.

X2.... I had problems with my dog honoring Brittanys. She couldn't tell if they were on point or not. As previously said we had to do some training with Brits.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:14 pm

doco wrote:
slistoe wrote:Except for the simple fact that to a good many dogs a tail does make all the difference in a backing situation. There are short tailed dogs who won't back a low tailed dog unless trained and experienced with it. There are long tailed dogs who won't back short tailed dogs unless trained and experienced with it. So you can cry foul and stomp with righteous indignation if you want, but the simple fact is the statement is founded in reality
C'mon Slis, A standing dog is a standing dog. White, brown, orange grey, I don't care what color it is. Heidi's tail is as 12:00 it can get, and she stays jacked up with no let down....see below. The dog blew that back at 15 - 20 feet. I'm not cryin foul on the dog, the trainer, or the "Pointer/Setter" guys, just the reality of the attitude that has been carried on through the generations of most. Most being better than 50%, I would never accuse all. I'm not blowing smoke up her butt, just not willing to accept unnecessary grumbling and excuses and reasons for an elite dog not backing.

I've earned the respect of running my shorthairs there, but it's like the ugly duckling walking to the line as I lead her up from the trailer. Yeah man she turns heads, I assume it's because we look that good. :roll: :roll: Good thing I started with a Setter guy there otherwise I am sure I would not have been given the time of day or directions to the breakaway.

As for good dogs. A good dog is a good dog. JCButtry's little pointer was a bootlicker the first time he ran it in a puppy stake at our Club GSP trial and he'll admit the same. We still placed her based on her potential as a future bird dog. What a crackin high tail, absolutely gorgeous and now listen to him and how she runs. The few judging mentors I have gave me some of the best advice. Place dogs that make the hair on your neck stand up, that you want to take home or is worthy of running in a Championship. It certainly puts things in perspective and makes judging a heck of a lot easier when sorting through the field. Every dog has their day.

Come on Doc, She was a hoof licker. I have been to enough trials which still isn't that many to be able to tell talent. I have ran my pup with dogs that were definitely better than what I had. There were definitely dogs that couldn't hang that didn't make it and upset owners that thought they had more than they really did. You still have to put your dog in every situation possible. I have taken my little boot licker and ran her in just about everyway possible with just about every type of dog that I can run her with just to show her that we ain't picky, we will play with anyone. She is learning that when a dog is stopped she stops. I now run her off the quad a day or two and then off of foot a day a week. Last time out on foot the garmin said 500 to 700 yards. Whether right or not, I didn't see her much. When I did the tail was popping and the white streak was moving. All dogs have talents. Some more than others, but we have to help bring them along. My pup will probably get bigger on her own but me taking the steps I have and running her with older bigger running dogs has helped bring out the run and show her the better way to manage a tree line and how to take a corner and make it work.

I just ran her tuesday with two GSP's. The owner of those dogs couldn't believe that she is just 10 mos old and that she ran 1.5 hours solid without drooping her tail or slowing off the quad. She seems to think my little girl will be pi#$ing off people this year in the AKC trials. She didn't get there overnight and she didn't do it on her own. It has been several months worth of work. I have learned so far in this game that if you keep your mouth shut and your eyes open and train, train, and even train some more that you can end up with something real nice, but you definitely have to have something there to start with.

Joe

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:41 pm

Sharon wrote:
slistoe wrote:Nice pic - nice dog.

X2.... I had problems with my dog honoring Brittanys. She couldn't tell if they were on point or not. As previously said we had to do some training with Brits.

I use brittanies when training my setter to back.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:52 pm

I go to the pet store and buy hampsters....... Makes backing the larger ones easy.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:58 pm

Groundhog Ultracarry....they call them groundhogs! Geesh!

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:23 pm

I thought it was "Swamp Collies"? Though that "Bunny" comment was pretty cute. I for one, don't give a rat's a$$ what Breed a good dog is, it's a good dog period

That Dane just represents the ridiculous extreme that you MUST take training to when you compete in games, whether they are Test or Trials. Once they are a Broke dog, it all becomes polish and what the heck kind of curve ball can we throw at them next. I start with a Brit silhouette and once they have the basics down, will throw every dog I can get my hands on in front of them. Funny as heck also, you should see the amount of bird drive a Dane has and the resultant chase when a 100# woman is trying to hold onto a lead!

My thoughts:
Running All Breed AF stuff can be a tough row to hoe. There are Judges out there with an opinion like mine, in that they don't care what the Breed is if it gets the job done. However, as often demonstrated on this very board, there are also preconceived notions of what is, or isn't a good dog based on Breed and going under those types of Judges will be an exercise in futility and frustration. That's money better spent playing where you know you get a fair shake. Once that FC or AFC is done though? What the heck, why not give it a whirl if you're not going for Rank?

As to the closed Stakes, I recognize and understand why some Breeds such as the Brit do, to get Qualifying for Nationals and I often wonder, if this doesn't sell those Breeds short of what they are actually capable of? Why not eliminate the Annual Qualifier in exchange for a 1 time Qualifier? How many of those dogs that Qualify 1 year, aren't finished within the next year or 2 anyway and once they are a FC/AFC; in my opinion they should have earned the right to participate year in and year out; but perhaps there is more that I'm not familiar with within the Breed. Educate me? I also wonder how often folks will avoid said Breed Trials that are Open Breed in some or all stakes, because of again, preconceived notions of what kind of shake they may get from the routine of normally closed stakes within said Breed? I gotta say from that list that Karen posted earlier of Brit Clubs in the NE Region.... Dayum do you have a boat load of Breed Clubs! That is AWESOME to see that kind of participation and involvement! So with that many Clubs, Why not open them up? Surely the Brits winning/placing in All Breed competition deserve to be in the Nationals!

Great read Mr. Voss, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:52 pm

The ABC's priorities are a little warped, if you ask me. They reserve 4 whole days to run their National open gun dog championship (with a few days after that to run the amt. gun dog championship) so they have to do something to keep entries low enough to finish it in those 4 days....so they force requalification annually, except for prior year winners (they're qualified for life). This also forces anyone wanting to qualify for nationals to spend their dollars entering Brittany club trials, regardless of judging quality or distance, and allows many clubs to use the same judges over and over and over again, again, regardless of quality. They know they'll have a full trial anyway, so they don't have to work at it, nor do they have to play fair.

The ABC runs their AA nationals over Thanksgiving (amt. the week before, open the week after, with the specialty show sandwiched in between), in Booneville Arkansas! On what I'm told are shooting dog grounds, NOT AA grounds.

They run the annual board meeting DURING the National specialty show, so the directors are by and far AA field trialers because they're already in Booneville, and not in the show ring. Does any of this sound good for the breed?