Help me understand

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:05 am

On another thread I was participating in, a poster wrote "Dogs are place oriented". This is not he first time I have heard this. It appears to me that everyone knows this but me.
I don`t understand how a dog that is bred to cover ground, and the more ground it covers, the better the dog,[generally speaking] can be place oriented. Even a closer working dog that is hunting and always moving is not place oriented to me.
If a Pointing dog was place oriented, why do we have to break them? If he is place oriented wouldn`t we actually have to force the dog to move after the shot?
If dogs are place oriented, why do they creep?
If dogs are place oriented, why do we have to steady in the blind?

I think we make them place oriented with Heel, down, and maybe kennel, but I don`t see how anyone can say they are place oriented.
So educate me if you will please.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:48 am

Place oriented would be like the training areas where you constantly go. You ever hear of a dog doing the "mild run" or checking every bush on one ridge where there were birds the last 5 times.

We have to break dogs because of their prey drive and greed (two things that I want to see). They will try and try until they figgure out what you are wanting from them because of course we can't talk to them.... And have them understand.

Dogs creep because of poor training.

You don't have to steady to the blind specifically, just whoa train the dog.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:26 am

Thanks for your post Ultra.
But my place oriented question is derived from given commands. I always here it used in conjunction with Whoa and Heel.
Heel I can understand. It is a place that I want the dog to be, by my side. But I can`t grasp how it relates to stopping a dog at 50 yards or more and never in the same spot twice , in any field or any terrain.

Dogs creep because of poor training.

I am talking about no training. It is very natural for a dog with any amount of desire and prey drive to creep on a pointed bird. Training is required to stop or fix this problem. If a dog is on point and is so place oriented, why would he move?

You don't have to steady to the blind specifically, just whoa train the dog.

I am talking in terms of a Retriever test or a NAVHDA UT or INVitational test. The dogs must remain and not break until commanded to go. They must Honor another dogs retrieve, ect.
If they are so place oriented why does it take so much time and training to get a dog to do this? I would think it would be very natural for them, since they are in their place.

Can anyone tell me where this notion came from? My guess is it comes from some Canine behaviorist that has never owned a bird dog.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:34 am

It could also depend on the specific dog. There are some that will point a bush with the wind blowing up thier butt, no bird in the bush, and will not move. It's prob going to be the same theory but I have observed it with my own two eyes.

From what I understand in NAVHDA is you can whoa a dog for the blind and honor by water. I may be wrong since I don't use whoa, but if you.say it the dog should never move until he is told to

As for the creeping, goes back to training. Dogs are bred to have point and prey drive so when you put the two togeather without training, it seems like a mix of the two.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:36 am

Understand that creeping is an arrested stalk...as is pointing. Roll the tape back....if wild dogs only pointed and never creeped, they would starve. They need the arrested stalk to pounce.

*We* have refined the point instinct...and tried to remove the creep.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:37 am

Vman wrote:On another thread I was participating in, a poster wrote "Dogs are place oriented". This is not he first time I have heard this. It appears to me that everyone knows this but me.
I don`t understand how a dog that is bred to cover ground, and the more ground it covers, the better the dog,[generally speaking] can be place oriented. Even a closer working dog that is hunting and always moving is not place oriented to me.
If a Pointing dog was place oriented, why do we have to break them? If he is place oriented wouldn`t we actually have to force the dog to move after the shot?
If dogs are place oriented, why do they creep?
If dogs are place oriented, why do we have to steady in the blind?

I think we make them place oriented with Heel, down, and maybe kennel, but I don`t see how anyone can say they are place oriented.
So educate me if you will please.

I don't think you understand the definition of "place oriented"

Oriented: intellectually, emotionally, or fuctionally directed.

So, a dog that is "place oriented" is directed by the place it is in. Teach whoa in the yard, then go to a new location and say whoa. 9 times out of 10 the dog won't stop the first time because it doesn't know in this place the same rules apply.
I've never done it so this is an assumtion on my part, but teach whoa using a barrel. Now put the dog on the ground, say whoa and walk away. Does the dog move? If it does, why? Because the ground is not the same "place" as the barrel. Thats why some people use place boards when transitioning to the ground from barrel.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:38 am

I think it's more distraction oriented than place oriented. Nomenclature

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:41 am

Vman wrote:Thanks for your post Ultra.
But my place oriented question is derived from given commands. I always here it used in conjunction with Whoa and Heel.
Heel I can understand. It is a place that I want the dog to be, by my side. But I can`t grasp how it relates to stopping a dog at 50 yards or more and never in the same spot twice , in any field or any terrain.

Dogs creep because of poor training.
I am talking about no training. It is very natural for a dog with any amount of desire and prey drive to creep on a pointed bird. Training is required to stop or fix this problem. If a dog is on point and is so place oriented, why would he move?

You don't have to steady to the blind specifically, just whoa train the dog.
I am talking in terms of a Retriever test or a NAVHDA UT or INVitational test. The dogs must remain and not break until commanded to go. They must Honor another dogs retrieve, ect.
If they are so place oriented why does it take so much time and training to get a dog to do this? I would think it would be very natural for them, since they are in their place.

Can anyone tell me where this notion came from? My guess is it comes from some Canine behaviorist that has never owned a bird dog.

Actually, George Hickox uses the term to refer to the placement of correction, i.e., collar on the flank/belly, vs. on the neck.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:33 am

Thanks for the replies. I think I understand the meaning a little better.
I do understand "place Oriented" in regards to training in the yard vs. training in the field right away. I do see how dogs will do it in the yard but when they are let loose in a field we have to show them that they have too do it there also.
I understand the barrel-placeboard-ground also. Just transition.

Thanks

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:46 am

It means dogs make visual, environmental pictures to remember. They do not generalize behaviors well, naturally. If you teach a command in your bathroom. You might have to also teach it in your porch, down the road, and in the field or at least do a refresher to show the dog the command applies everywhere. If you teach a command while YOU are sitting down, and then you stand up, the picture is new to the dog and you have to reapply the learning to the standing handler. Once they make 2-3 generalizations on the same command they start to catch on and carry that command over to new situations. Conversly, if something BAD happens, they also associate it with that place. If you train in a field and the dog is new and impressionable, and is say, stung my wasp in the face he may avoid that place or be very cautious there for many future trips. Or at the vet if they are always getting bad stuff, they are more likely to associate it with the place, the actual clinic, than the people or situations.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:59 am

I believe dogs are like some autistic people, they are more visually oriented than we are.
They are more specific if you will about visual things. They don't have language to work
with so they concentrate more on visual clues. They are amazing at reading body language
because of this. My dog will walk around and maybe growl
at something in the garage that is not where it was the last time he walked through. Some autistic
people will read off all the numbers of all the lockers in a high school hall way. They can't ignore this
and just walk down the hall.

This leads to the space orientation you refer to. If the environment looks different or the same they
respond in certain ways. I know most bird dogs will go to and hunt areas they have found birds before.

My dog is in a crate in the back of my van every day when I go home. He knows every route back to the house.
So no matter which way I go home he will whine for the last few blocks, knowing that when we get there
he gets to eat.

He once caught his tail in a door. After this he would not go into that hall way for a few weeks. Finally with the temptation of food he got over that.

Mike

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:28 pm

Re: Help me understand

New postby mountaindogs » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:46 pm
It means dogs make visual, environmental pictures to remember. They do not generalize behaviors well, naturally. If you teach a command in your bathroom. You might have to also teach it in your porch, down the road, and in the field or at least do a refresher to show the dog the command applies everywhere. If you teach a command while YOU are sitting down, and then you stand up, the picture is new to the dog and you have to reapply the learning to the standing handler. Once they make 2-3 generalizations on the same command they start to catch on and carry that command over to new situations. Conversly, if something BAD happens, they also associate it with that place. If you train in a field and the dog is new and impressionable, and is say, stung my wasp in the face he may avoid that place or be very cautious there for many future trips. Or at the vet if they are always getting bad stuff, they are more likely to associate it with the place, the actual clinic, than the people or situations.

Thank you, very well put. I get it now.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:42 pm

brad27 wrote:
Vman wrote:On another thread I was participating in, a poster wrote "Dogs are place oriented". This is not he first time I have heard this. It appears to me that everyone knows this but me.
I don`t understand how a dog that is bred to cover ground, and the more ground it covers, the better the dog,[generally speaking] can be place oriented. Even a closer working dog that is hunting and always moving is not place oriented to me.
If a Pointing dog was place oriented, why do we have to break them? If he is place oriented wouldn`t we actually have to force the dog to move after the shot?
If dogs are place oriented, why do they creep?
If dogs are place oriented, why do we have to steady in the blind?

I think we make them place oriented with Heel, down, and maybe kennel, but I don`t see how anyone can say they are place oriented.
So educate me if you will please.
I don't think you understand the definition of "place oriented"

Oriented: intellectually, emotionally, or fuctionally directed.

So, a dog that is "place oriented" is directed by the place it is in. Teach whoa in the yard, then go to a new location and say whoa. 9 times out of 10 the dog won't stop the first time because it doesn't know in this place the same rules apply.
I've never done it so this is an assumtion on my part, but teach whoa using a barrel. Now put the dog on the ground, say whoa and walk away. Does the dog move? If it does, why? Because the ground is not the same "place" as the barrel. Thats why some people use place boards when transitioning to the ground from barrel.

Excellent post Brad. That's how I think of it as well.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:44 pm

I have always known it to mean that dogs generalize poorly compared to us. There have already been lots of good examples of this. Where a person can easily grasp that 2+2 is always 4 no matter where the heck they are or what time it is, a dog would need to find that this is true in several different situations, places etc... before they realize it is always 4.

What was the context the people on the other board were using the definition?