Range/Trial Question

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:39 am

So my initial intention was to run my ES pup in NSTRA either this Fall or next Spring but I've been taking her out and her range just keeps getting bigger and bigger. She's about 6 months and I took her out yesterday and put a friend's GPS collar on her and she ran out dang near 1/2 mile before I whistled her back. Should I be trying to reign her in or should I be looking for a different trial type?

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:24 am

At that range, sounds like your pup will do well in AKC or AF all age.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:40 am

What was her usual range? 1 big cast is 1 big cast.

solon · Post by **solon** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:27 am

My experience is in the cover dog arena, so it is not directly relevant to you out in Oregon's wide open spaces. That said, the key element is having your dog handle and go with you (ahead of you preferably), whatever the range and whether you are in the woods or prairie. My understanding is NSTRA is run in relatively small bird fields with planted birds, and a dog better handle close or it will run right out of the bird field. Your dog sounds like a good candidate for AF horseback trials. Pups tend to run bigger and bigger as they get older and gain confidence. It is helpful when training a pup, to be near the dog so you know what it is doing and can correct misbehavior. With the big running dogs, the trainers keep up with them on horseback or ATV. For us walking folks, you need to reign in the range. I found that when training the dogs on pen raised birds, they know you have birds and learn how you plant them. Thus they adjust their range accordingly. When I go out with a bird bag full of pigeons for stop to flush drills or back planting, it is all I can do to get my big running dog to take her eyes off me and get to hunting. When working wild birds, they may range as far as they need to in order to find birds.

Moral of the story: bond to the pup, get it handling for you. Adjust the pup's range to your needs and your hunting environment. You may be fighting nature, if you try to change the pup's natural range too much.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:47 am

solon wrote:My experience is in the cover dog arena, so it is not directly relevant to you out in Oregon's wide open spaces. That said, the key element is having your dog handle and go with you (ahead of you preferably), whatever the range and whether you are in the woods or prairie. My understanding is NSTRA is run in relatively small bird fields with planted birds, and a dog better handle close or it will run right out of the bird field. Your dog sounds like a good candidate for AF horseback trials. Pups tend to run bigger and bigger as they get older and gain confidence. It is helpful when training a pup, to be near the dog so you know what it is doing and can correct misbehavior. With the big running dogs, the trainers keep up with them on horseback or ATV. For us walking folks, you need to reign in the range. I found that when training the dogs on pen raised birds, they know you have birds and learn how you plant them. Thus they adjust their range accordingly. When I go out with a bird bag full of pigeons for stop to flush drills or back planting, it is all I can do to get my big running dog to take her eyes off me and get to hunting. When working wild birds, they may range as far as they need to in order to find birds.

Moral of the story: bond to the pup, get it handling for you. Adjust the pup's range to your needs and your hunting environment. You may be fighting nature, if you try to change the pup's natural range too much.

Good post. You will be fighting nature but use lots of birds in close. She's off looking for birds and it's really got going since French Glenn. She found out to find birds, she had to go get them, theey are pulling her. If you train a lot with lots of birds in much smaller areas, it will eventually hold her. You saw how Bodie goes. He does recognize a set up and in a small training area he doesn't leave the area; he knows the birds are there. I don't do enough with him to hold him in so he does what he was bred to do. Gonna start working on them though. Quail will be here no later than March 8th, maybe by the 25th of Feb. Talked to Dave yesterday. I get them and get a call back pen made you can use them also. Only deal is she has to stay on the check cord till we're sure we have her. She's young so it might take awhile.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:04 am

Without question, the most consistently successful AF shooting dog handlers in the country are the Tracys, first "Pap" Gerald and then George and now Mike and Jeannette. Three generations of consistently winning AF shooting dog handlers. They all do their training in much the same ways.

They keep their puppies close and their derbies close when they are working them. As the dogs mature, they(most of them anyway) gain much, if not all of their natural range back, but now they do it with the brakes and the steering not only installed, but tested, tweaked and well adjusted.

And they win.

As an amateur with one dog, you can do it any way you like because, unlike the pros, you have a relatively unlimited amount of time, energy and interest in that one dog. You can make the dog do things the pro simply cannot because you have the time and the interest. The pro is on the clock and the client wants results becasue they are paying by the month. it is far easier for the pro to send a dog home that is not keeping up with the program and fill in that spot with another dog. That is generally an option that the amateur wants to avoid.

However, it does make sense to examine and at least in some ways, try to emulate those who have demonstrated success in your field of interest.

RayG

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:10 am

Thanks for the responses folks. It sounds like I've got some work to do if I want to do NSTRA but it can be done. That particular cast was exceptionally big but she's getting out there 400 yards pretty consistently these days. Don, I think you're right, I think that since she started finding birds way out there that she just keeps running to find more. I like the idea of stocking a smaller field with birds to keep her in. Seems to be intuitive considering the probable reason she's running out so far.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:24 am

I think you could go in either. The dog needs to point all birds and hold until you get there. The birds won't be out there a half a mile in NASTRA. In NASTRa, they may only be planted 50 +- yards out there. AF AA is a whole other game but your dog should be able to compete in AF Shooting Dog stakes.

That's the beauty of a well trained dog. I participated in NASTRA with a big running dog and in AF Shooting Dog qnd can go out for grouse the next day .

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:50 pm

Gertie there are a lot of factors that will affect your dogs range before it's all said and done. I wouldn't be too caught up on your dogs range at this point. You may break this dog and the dog may shorten up on you and never go back to running at all. You never know what's gonna happen with them.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:44 pm

bigsugar wrote:Gertie there are a lot of factors that will affect your dogs range before it's all said and done. I wouldn't be too caught up on your dogs range at this point. You may break this dog and the dog may shorten up on you and never go back to running at all. You never know what's gonna happen with them.

What method of breaking your dogs do you use?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:55 am

bigsugar wrote:Gertie there are a lot of factors that will affect your dogs range before it's all said and done. I wouldn't be too caught up on your dogs range at this point. You may break this dog and the dog may shorten up on you and never go back to running at all. You never know what's gonna happen with them.

+1

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:55 am

I would run her in NSTRA and AF stuff.
NSTRA there are no less than 5 birds in that 40 acre or so field. Later in the trial there may be more. Your dog needs to handle to keep it in bounds. If you dog blows by all the birds, you will loose. But if you dog likes birds it will learn to pay attention to its nose. You do not have to break her range IMO. Teach her to be an honest bird dog. Then when you do want to run in AF, AKC shooting dog trials you can. Your dog will adapt.IMO

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:50 am

Ruffshooter wrote:I would run her in NSTRA and AF stuff.

I would agree to try that but... in my experience with both... your dog will come unglued running NSTRA. Too may opportunities to pick up bad habits that will get you picked up quicker than snot in AF. Like... the opportunity to retrieve, only have to be STF (you think they are broke until they break

), having to only back once, etc. Go for it and find out which you like best...

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:25 am

Garrison I don't have a set method really. I've taken some ideas from here and there and adapted it to fit what I like.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:51 am

What part of the method you like, causes the "never going back to running at all" part?

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:28 pm

Its been my experience that some dogs only like to run "on their terms" and when you go to get a handle on them or put manners on them they can no longer do it on their terms so they will shorten up. I've seen some dogs too that once you broke them they went from running to hunting and that shortened them up considerably. You often find that if you go to put a handle on a big running youngster they will get sticky because they're a little confused or because they don't want to make you unhappy. Some dogs never come out of this. Most do though. Again just my observation.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:31 pm

Garrison let me add too that its the dogs makeup that causes him to shorten. Not the method of training.

I'll also say this. You don't have to push a big going dog. He goes through the country because he wants to not because you're making him.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:01 pm

bigsugar wrote:Garrison let me add too that its the dogs makeup that causes him to shorten. Not the method of training.

I'll also say this. You don't have to push a big going dog. He goes through the country because he wants to not because you're making him.

Amen Bigsugar. Method doesnt really have much to do with it, It seems to me Garrison that your laying a trap to get bs cop to being to hard on a dog to get into a p*ssing match about methods. JMO. I have seen the way BS trains his dogs and have helped, ran with, and witnessed plenty of the methods. he is correct in his statements.

GUNSMOKE · Post by **GUNSMOKE** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:22 pm

Especially with Setters you never know what they're going to do or what they're going to be like after you break them. I could name some top contenders from a big name setter kennel ( but I won't ) that had some really nice winning derbies, then came time to breakem and they couldn't handle it. They've run off into the sunset never to be heard from again.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:37 pm

bigsugar wrote:He goes through the country because he wants to not because you're making him.

+1 - Any dog you MAKE do anything will not last long in competition.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:52 pm

No method pisssing contest here, just trying to learn what not to do to go from broke to broken?

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:11 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:I would run her in NSTRA and AF stuff.
NSTRA there are no less than 5 birds in that 40 acre or so field. Later in the trial there may be more. Your dog needs to handle to keep it in bounds. If you dog blows by all the birds, you will loose. But if you dog likes birds it will learn to pay attention to its nose. You do not have to break her range IMO. Teach her to be an honest bird dog. Then when you do want to run in AF, AKC shooting dog trials you can. Your dog will adapt.IMO

I like this idea. Keeps the options open and will allow the talent to develop where it may and she'll probably be a better hunting dog for it too. I'll keep my eye out for some walking trails (don't have a horse yet but wouldn't mind getting one some time in the future). Thanks for the discussion folks. As always, I learn a lot from y'all.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:44 pm

Garrison I have just found that a dog is what he is and the method you use to break doesn't make him one way or another.

I'll give you an example. Topher40 had a nice little dog that was everything you wanted in a dog until he went to break her and she couldn't stand up to it. It didn't make a difference how you would have went about it the dog just wasn't cut out for what he wanted to do with it.

I find that in dogs typically they will shorten up when you put a handle on them and again when you break them all the way out.

A guy once told me (a trainer friend whom I greatly respect) that if you go to tighten the screws on him and he shortens up on you don't worry. If he's meant to run he'll go back to running. If he doesn't then he wasn't meant to run. That little nugget has helped me tremendously.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:07 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
bigsugar wrote:He goes through the country because he wants to not because you're making him.
+1 - Any dog you MAKE do anything will not last long in competition.

This a great point proven several times by GSP dogs. Now don't start yelling at me because I'm hatin on the shorthair but there are some great man made shorthairs out there that win like crazy for awhile and then fizzle and are never heard from again.

With any dog, breaking is a big thing. Some handle it well and others are never the same. Same reason you see great derby dogs that win like crazy and blow up everything they get into. Then they get broke and dissapear off the face of the earth. The all around dog that can last from puppy to shooting dog or AA is a hard dog to find. I believe this is the gost dog that BigSugar talks about often. They are out there but super hard to find. When you do, hold on. It will be a heck of a ride.

Joe

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:23 pm

Kind of seems harder for some and easier for some trainers. Is Kona still wearing that pink sweater to the puppy trials or just Blue Ribbons?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:46 pm

This a great point proven several times by GSP dogs. Now don't start yelling at me because I'm hatin on the shorthair but there are some great man made shorthairs out there that win like crazy for awhile and then fizzle and are never heard from again.

With any dog, breaking is a big thing. Some handle it well and others are never the same. Same reason you see great derby dogs that win like crazy and blow up everything they get into. Then they get broke and dissapear off the face of the earth. The all around dog that can last from puppy to shooting dog or AA is a hard dog to find. I believe this is the gost dog that BigSugar talks about often. They are out there but super hard to find. When you do, hold on. It will be a heck of a ride.

My curiousity always gets me into trouble Joe but how did you arrive at the above conclusions?? I may be wrong but I swear I saw you just ran your first puppy stake in another thread...sorry if I'm mistaken, wouldn't be my first time!!

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:59 pm

That would have been my first puppy stake in AF. Had a few in the AKC last season. Been around bird dogs all my life. I know the difference in natural talent that is bred into it and a dog that was forced to run. Sure I may not be a trial expert like yourself but don't where a helmet every day either, but thanks for trying to call me out.

I work with several dogs right now that were just that. They have dog of the year awards and have championships and ran like nothing you ever saw. Now they won't mess with a bird. Can't get them to run and you wouldn't believe the video on them from just a few years ago. They were man made. I know that because I work now with the man that made them. They were forced to do what they did. Are you saying it is not true and that it doesn't happen?

As for my breaking comment above, it isn't only trial dogs. Seen plenty of dogs on my grandpa's farm meet their maker after breaking. Some dogs just can't handle it. Just the way it works.

Joe

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:05 pm

Garrison wrote:Kind of seems harder for some and easier for some trainers. Is Kona still wearing that pink sweater to the puppy trials or just Blue Ribbons?

The pink sweater. She just loves the way it brings out her eyes. I am still learning the ropes of the trialing thing but training a dog is training a dog. There are things that come to some that others are pushed to do. Hence, the robot comments on here.

If I upset some on here for my comments, then let me know and I will try to help you find thicker skin.

Joe

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:47 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:That would have been my first puppy stake in AF. Had a few in the AKC last season. Been around bird dogs all my life. I know the difference in natural talent that is bred into it and a dog that was forced to run. Sure I may not be a trial expert like yourself but don't where a helmet every day either, but thanks for trying to call me out.

I work with several dogs right now that were just that. They have dog of the year awards and have championships and ran like nothing you ever saw. Now they won't mess with a bird. Can't get them to run and you wouldn't believe the video on them from just a few years ago. They were man made. I know that because I work now with the man that made them. They were forced to do what they did. Are you saying it is not true and that it doesn't happen?

As for my breaking comment above, it isn't only trial dogs. Seen plenty of dogs on my grandpa's farm meet their maker after breaking. Some dogs just can't handle it. Just the way it works.

Joe

I have found that dogs that don't handle being broke says a lot more about the trainer than it does the dog. And I am very unclear about the dogs that are forced to run or man made as you say. Don't think I have ever seen that and have no idea how you would force one to run. I think given time and experience you may change your mind on some of that.

Ezzy

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:53 pm

I am of the belief that not all dogs are capable of being broke.

Ezzy you've never heard of a "whip and run?" It's way more common then you think. I just don't think you're in the right arena to really know what goes on.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:11 pm

See I told you my curiousity gets me into trouble!!

That would have been my first puppy stake in AF. Had a few in the AKC last season.

Sounds good! I'm just trying to establish the baseline for what it takes to be an expert!!

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:14 pm

They have dog of the year awards and have championships and ran like nothing you ever saw. Now they won't mess with a bird. Can't get them to run and you wouldn't believe the video on them from just a few years ago. They were man made. I know that because I work now with the man that made them. They were forced to do what they did. Are you saying it is not true and that it doesn't happen?

These dogs sound more ruined by somebody than man made.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:25 pm

A guy once told me (a trainer friend whom I greatly respect) that if you go to tighten the screws on him and he shortens up on you don't worry. If he's meant to run he'll go back to running. If he doesn't then he wasn't meant to run. That little nugget has helped me tremendously.

When this subject comes up, I usally get called on it from a few, but I have always said one needs to get a dog that ranges according to the venue you are interested in, [whether it be hunting or one of the trial venues] rather than trying to train one to range the way you want. The majority of the time you will never be happy with the latter.

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:31 pm

bigsugar wrote:I am of the belief that not all dogs are capable of being broke.

Interesting thought. I've never had a dog that i would say "was not capable of being broke." I've been a trainer occasionally who didn't have the insight/skill to "break" a dog , necessitating it being handed on to a pro - who was successful.

What would be the characteristics/behaviour of a dog who "wasn't able to be broke"?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:33 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:
I work with several dogs right now that were just that. They have dog of the year awards and have championships and ran like nothing you ever saw. Now they won't mess with a bird. Can't get them to run and you wouldn't believe the video on them from just a few years ago. They were man made. I know that because I work now with the man that made them. They were forced to do what they did. Are you saying it is not true and that it doesn't happen?
Joe

I'd say you need to find someone else to work with.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:38 pm

What..what...what? It makes no difference ehow they are broke, but a blinking dog is man made? How does that work?

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:42 pm

Chukar12 wrote:What..what...what? It makes no difference ehow they are broke, but a blinking dog is man made? How does that work?

I think what was meant was makes no difference if your Grandpa has enough room behind the wood shed.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:43 pm

DGFavor wrote: See I told you my curiousity gets me into trouble!!

That would have been my first puppy stake in AF. Had a few in the AKC last season.
Sounds good! I'm just trying to establish the baseline for what it takes to be an expert!!

Long way from being an expert. Just making a comment on a forum about what I had seen. Guessing I must have stepped on your short tail?

Joe

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:10 pm

bigsugar wrote:I am of the belief that not all dogs are capable of being broke.

Ezzy you've never heard of a "whip and run?" It's way more common then you think. I just don't think you're in the right arena to really know what goes on.

Probably true. Sorry I entered my uninformed opinion. Maybe when I grow up and have as much experience as you I will finally get it. I have already started searching for that perfect dog so I won't have to do any training. That way no one will ever know all of my shortcomings. But I will have the satisfaction of knowing my culls are better than any one else's dogs. That won't make Ron R feel good though knowing we both have culls better than his dogs.
:roll: :roll:

Ezzy

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:21 am

Let me know when you achieve that Ezzy, I'll switch to Britts in a heartbeat.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:33 am

DGFavor wrote: See I told you my curiousity gets me into trouble!!

That would have been my first puppy stake in AF. Had a few in the AKC last season.
Sounds good! I'm just trying to establish the baseline for what it takes to be an expert!!

Not much!

Doug

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:09 am

PntrRookie wrote:
Ruffshooter wrote:I would run her in NSTRA and AF stuff.
I would agree to try that but... in my experience with both... your dog will come unglued running NSTRA. Too may opportunities to pick up bad habits that will get you picked up quicker than snot in AF. Like... the opportunity to retrieve, only have to be STF (you think they are broke until they break ), having to only back once, etc. Go for it and find out which you like best...

Keeping in mind I do not run AF shooting dog; I do AKC Open Gun dog on occasion and NAVHDA and AKC hunt test and NSTRA. All of which I understand are way different than the AF open country trials. You all certainly have seen it all so the following is and observation and what I have done.
I train my dogs to be Steady till sent.
My dogs are trained to do their work properly and hold steady etc. I run those same dogs in NSTRA and I keep them Steady till sent. Although in these NSTRA trials they will run 200 yards many times to the end of an edge or to the end of the working field, sometimes more, they are running the range they always did as 1 year olds. I think most of us let the dogs develop their own natural range and independence then teach them to handle manually if we need. Some of our early training is about the dog keeping some form of acknowledgement of us during their hunt so that is mostly conditioned by our actions or ques in the field.
So I keep my dogs full steady in the NSTRA trials. I do not loose enough time (except once maybe) that it effects the score or finds. Have I had a dog break in the NSTRAtrials? Yes. When I head for an AKC event I do a couple weeks of Tune ups. Have actually found that if the dog is rock solid in the NSTRA trial and I do myu work that the AKC event usuall goes really well. Have I had the opposite happen? yup. That would happen if I did not put the time in prior to an AKC event to tune her up and Mercy liked the fact that on occassion I would let her break at the shot. That is where constistancy is the key.
Big sugar:
As far as shortening up because they have been steadied up. That does not make sense to me. Maybe I mis understood. I do understand that during the Steadying process a dog has a tendancy to shorten up but it seems that once they understand their job they go back to their natural run. Now again I am not used to a dog consistently running a 1/2 mile or more out. So maybe the shortening up is nin a percentage tthat I do not notice.

Anyway just some thoughts and observations.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:55 am

ezzy333 wrote:
bigsugar wrote:I am of the belief that not all dogs are capable of being broke.

Ezzy you've never heard of a "whip and run?" It's way more common then you think. I just don't think you're in the right arena to really know what goes on.
Probably true. Sorry I entered my uninformed opinion. Maybe when I grow up and have as much experience as you I will finally get it. I have already started searching for that perfect dog so I won't have to do any training. That way no one will ever know all of my shortcomings. But I will have the satisfaction of knowing my culls are better than any one else's dogs. That won't make Ron R feel good though knowing we both have culls better than his dogs.
:roll: :roll:

Ezzy

Ezzy -

For what it is worth, I have seen a fair bunch of dogs that were "encouraged" to run. A very large percentage of them were GSP's. Maybe it is a regional thing...I don't know.
I am of the opinion that their owners/trainers/handlers felt it necessary to push them out and they did so, mostly, I think, by chasing them and pushing them with 4 wheelers. I see them at trials and they run through the course and look like a million dollars doing it...but they mostly go birdless. They contrast rather starkly with the GSP's that hunt their way out and find the birds the other dogs blew right by.

There are an fair number of shorthairs I have seen which could go through the country and be hunting...both at the same time. Those generally get my attention. I tend to think that while some of it is obviously genetics, some of it has to be training, because the same folks seem to have the same kind of dogs, year after year.

RayG

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:14 am

bigsugar wrote:Garrison I have just found that a dog is what he is and the method you use to break doesn't make him one way or another.

I'll give you an example. Topher40 had a nice little dog that was everything you wanted in a dog until he went to break her and she couldn't stand up to it. It didn't make a difference how you would have went about it the dog just wasn't cut out for what he wanted to do with it.

I find that in dogs typically they will shorten up when you put a handle on them and again when you break them all the way out.

A guy once told me (a trainer friend whom I greatly respect) that if you go to tighten the screws on him and he shortens up on you don't worry. If he's meant to run he'll go back to running. If he doesn't then he wasn't meant to run. That little nugget has helped me tremendously.

Interesting, so how many dogs have you used this with and what accomplishments did you make with the dog? How many culls did you have in the process? Please state placements and years!

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:19 am

I don't think it's the dogs - most likely the trainer applying too much pressure. Jon Hann takes some very soft dogs in his videos and doesn't shut them down at all.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:45 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
bigsugar wrote:I am of the belief that not all dogs are capable of being broke.

Ezzy you've never heard of a "whip and run?" It's way more common then you think. I just don't think you're in the right arena to really know what goes on.
Probably true. Sorry I entered my uninformed opinion. Maybe when I grow up and have as much experience as you I will finally get it. I have already started searching for that perfect dog so I won't have to do any training. That way no one will ever know all of my shortcomings. But I will have the satisfaction of knowing my culls are better than any one else's dogs. That won't make Ron R feel good though knowing we both have culls better than his dogs.
:roll: :roll:

Ezzy

Ezzy -

For what it is worth, I have seen a fair bunch of dogs that were "encouraged" to run. A very large percentage of them were GSP's. Maybe it is a regional thing...I don't know.
I am of the opinion that their owners/trainers/handlers felt it necessary to push them out and they did so, mostly, I think, by chasing them and pushing them with 4 wheelers. I see them at trials and they run through the course and look like a million dollars doing it...but they mostly go birdless. They contrast rather starkly with the GSP's that hunt their way out and find the birds the other dogs blew right by.

There are an fair number of shorthairs I have seen which could go through the country and be hunting...both at the same time. Those generally get my attention. I tend to think that while some of it is obviously genetics, some of it has to be training, because the same folks seem to have the same kind of dogs, year after year.

RayG

Ray, I can't think of any trial dog that hasn't been encouraged. It is what ewe both call training. And I have seen dogs that run instead of hunting and most if not all have been bred to do that. I think we are finally coming back from the run era and are looking for dogs that do more hunting but takes some time to correct the mistakes we made in the past. But even yet there are the people who want the dog to run before anything else and those I believe are the dogs you refer to as pushed. Probably the difference in what we are saying is the translation of the word pushed.

Ezzy

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Ray, I can't think of any trial dog that hasn't been encouraged. It is what ewe both call training. And I have seen dogs that run instead of hunting and most if not all have been bred to do that. I think we are finally coming back from the run era and are looking for dogs that do more hunting but takes some time to correct the mistakes we made in the past. But even yet there are the people who want the dog to run before anything else and those I believe are the dogs you refer to as pushed. Probably the difference in what we are saying is the translation of the word pushed.

Ezzy

Actually. My mentors have instilled in me keeping the dog under control in training and NOT to encorage them to run. We breed dogs that run and they will run when we allow them but we do not train them to run. I run East coast Shooting dogs and the people that taught me do win alot and at major levels.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:45 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
RayG

Ray, I can't think of any trial dog that hasn't been encouraged. It is what ewe both call training. And I have seen dogs that run instead of hunting and most if not all have been bred to do that. I think we are finally coming back from the run era and are looking for dogs that do more hunting but takes some time to correct the mistakes we made in the past. But even yet there are the people who want the dog to run before anything else and those I believe are the dogs you refer to as pushed. Probably the difference in what we are saying is the translation of the word pushed.

Ezzy[/quote]

I define being "pushed" this way:

Dog is running free. Handler on quad blows whistle, aims quad at dog gooses the engine and runs directly at the dog. If dog does not get going it stands the risk of getting run over. The instant the dog slows down, the handler takes another run at the dog with the quad. Dog goes into the woodline...it gets nicked with the e-collar. Dog goes out into the open field , it gets nicked with the e-collar and herded in with the quad.

Dog stays glued to the edge in front of racing quad, it does not get nicked, it does not get run down.

In the "old days" trainers accomplished the very same thing on horseback with a .22 cal revolver loaded with rat shot. Dog was too close...it got stung in the butt with #12 shot. I read somewhere that one trainer used a slingshot with marbles. I guess he was a lot better with a slingshot than I ever was.

BTW, just because I know how...that is NOT what I choose to do.

RayG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:09 pm

People have been saying for years that you can take run out but not put it in? Hmmm

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:32 pm

I guess it is the definition of run that is paramount...a dog that runs because they instinctively believe that an aggressive approach to seeking game gets them game they will run and seek game, and that is just what it will look like. A dog that runs because he is afraid to be near you, will run and display behavior that looks like...he is afraid to be near you.

Some of this baffles me and I am sure part of it is semantics...but I just flat don't want to win bad enough to have to put much in and I darned sure don't want to train in a manner that takes too much out. I strongly disagree that breaking a dog regardless of temperment has the same inevitable outcomes that it did thirty years ago. Techniques and the tools to apply them are far better as is the ability to share information, which should in fact shorten the learning curve for all but the most bull headed.

A dog that won "championships" and now blinks birds, should be of the utmost rarity and I would sure like to know how they got there. Asking me to believe that there are a number of dogs in this fraternity is more than I can comprehend. I absolutely understand the professional point of view where effort will far surpass reward, and the need for them to cut their losses, but that does not mean the dog cannot be broke...and by the by, what are there a dozen, fifteen, seventeen handlers in the Nationals? Most of us ain't them fellers.

The thread has taken a twist as most do...IMO Gertie, if NSTRA is your game, find a successful multi-dog, multi-year competitor and get your nose in their derrier and they will show you how to make that dog work in that venue...I still believe you can take it out, but you can only maximize, not change what is already in there (in terms of range). That being said, if you want to try other venues it appears you have options, but my advice is the same...fetch up a mentor while the dog is young.