weimerener

Post Reply
massman
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:59 pm

weimerener

Post by massman » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:41 pm

does anyone have experiance with weimereners,how do they hunt compared to gsp on upland birds?

User avatar
mat b.
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: UTAH

Re: weimerener

Post by mat b. » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:31 pm

Some of them are just as good, some are better, but most are not nearly as good. Do your research and find a good breeder that hunts their dog, and that has proven it's self, and you will have a good chance at getting a good hunting weim.

Mat

User avatar
LincolnAlexander
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: weimerener

Post by LincolnAlexander » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:11 pm

mat b. wrote:Some of them are just as good, some are better, but most are not nearly as good. Do your research and find a good breeder that hunts their dog, and that has proven it's self, and you will have a good chance at getting a good hunting weim.

Mat
+1

Here is a good site/forum for people interested in hunting Weimaraners - http://huntingweimalliance.com/
CanCH Stonepoint's the Missing Link FD, RDX, V (Lincoln)
NorthLink Mattie's Bayou Shade NAVHDA NAII (108) (Shade)
NorthLink's Shaken Not Stirred NAVHDA NAI (112) (Olive)
http://www.northlinkweimaraners.com

totalblitz
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: weimerener

Post by totalblitz » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:19 pm

I have both weims and shorthairs and can say my weims are just as good. Its all about the breeding you have too pay closer attention with weims because alot of the lines have been bred for show. Just make sure it is a good hunting bloodline!

bb560m
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 406
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: weimerener

Post by bb560m » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:36 pm

hard to find a good hunting weim - easy to find a good hunting gsp.

User avatar
chiendog
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:34 pm
Location: Great White North

Re: weimerener

Post by chiendog » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:45 pm

Truth!

Weims are easy to find. There are lots of breeders everywhere.

GOOD hunting Weims on the other hand are not so easy to find. But with a bit of homework, you can find em.

Start with the hunting weim forum mentioned by LincolnAlexander (http://huntingweimalliance.com/). You can also read up on the breed on my blog: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/201 ... art-1.html

tdhusker
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:52 am
Location: Western Nebraska

Re: weimerener

Post by tdhusker » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:46 pm

bb560m wrote:hard to find a good hunting weim - easy to find a good hunting gsp.
Very true. Of the Weims I've been around, I've seen too many that bit people as well. I hunted with a guy who did have an outstanding weim. To be honest, he's the only one.

User avatar
RoostersMom
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1755
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: North Central Missouri

Re: weimerener

Post by RoostersMom » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:56 pm

I've hunted behind 3 of them, wouldn't give a plug nickel for any of them. My dogs have been attacked on 4 separate occassions by weims - I must just attract the bad ones. I've never been around a good one yet. I probably need to get out more!

User avatar
ACooper
GDF Premier Member!
Posts: 3393
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 pm
Location: Sometimes I'm in Oklahoma

Re: weimerener

Post by ACooper » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:10 pm

RoostersMom wrote: My dogs have been attacked on 4 separate occassions by weims.
IMO this is an owner problem, there are owners of many of the more "intense" breeds who let this kind of "bleep" slide, based on the excuse "well he/she is just being a weim" (or other breed). That is a garbage and lazy excuse. IMO

I have owned two weims, one was a really nice all around 100% natural bird dog. The other was a total POS, she was a reflection of what the breed seems to have turned into, except for what a few serious breeders are producing.

germandogs12
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:08 pm

Re: weimerener

Post by germandogs12 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:20 pm

I hunted behind my first one for 10 years and she was superb. Have done foster/rescue for others. I have never seen a biter. Not saying they wont but I have not encountered. Am currently waiting on a draathar pup which will be a first for me.

I will continue to foster/rescue weims. I agree that you need to look closer for hunters than with shorthairs or Draathars because a lot of the back yard breeders stock are for looks not hunting.

tdhusker
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:52 am
Location: Western Nebraska

Re: weimerener

Post by tdhusker » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:15 pm

ACooper wrote:
RoostersMom wrote: My dogs have been attacked on 4 separate occassions by weims.
IMO this is an owner problem, there are owners of many of the more "intense" breeds who let this kind of "bleep" slide, based on the excuse "well he/she is just being a weim" (or other breed). That is a garbage and lazy excuse. IMO

I have owned two weims, one was a really nice all around 100% natural bird dog. The other was a total POS, she was a reflection of what the breed seems to have turned into, except for what a few serious breeders are producing.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I hunted with a guy who had two weims a couple years ago and I don't think they were worth the effort it would take to bury them. Not only were they worthless as bird dogs but one was very aggressive around the pup I had, would come sprinting any time my pup went on point and just steamroll him. It was a long day...

Steve007
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: weimerener

Post by Steve007 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:44 pm

tdhusker wrote:. Not only were they worthless as bird dogs but one was very aggressive around the pup I had, would come sprinting any time my pup went on point and just steamroll him. It was a long day...

Would have been a very short one with me. And not a very pleasant one for the owner of the worthless Weim.

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: weimerener

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 am

Maasman,
The very best gun dog I ever owned was a real German Weimar brought into this country long ago by a breeder in Texas who no longer exists. Unfortunately modern Weimars bred in this country, as a hole are not the same animals. There are some good breeders here in the USA, that are working hard to restore a once great hunting dog to its former place in the gun dog world. Do your home work when purchasing, make sure you purchase from one of the Hunting Weimar breeders, that has a proven record of producing good hunting dogs. I have a very talented Weimar myself, but she has Epoliposy and can only hunt for a very short time period. Gretchen is a prized part of our family and
guards our home and kennel. Having owned many Weimars and GSP dogs both, the good ones are very similar in the field and get the job done, especially in the Pheasant fields. Adam Fogie in Lancaster County way back in the 60's trained & raised some of the very best Weimars, GBE even wrote about hunting behind several of them, one of those great dogs I helped Adam train as I learned from my mentor, it was sold to a regulated shooting grounds in Ohio, you can read about him in one of GBE's fine books. Weimar dogs are not toys, they are still tested in Germany for their guard instinct, people owning them must understand what they are purchasing, and many here in the USA don't. A Weimar dog left on its own starts to revert to it's wild state, the attacks you have read about here are part of what can happen, if you purchase a Weimar dog your responsibility is to train your dog, if not the dog will train you. However Weimars bred in Germany are still very fine V type hunting dogs, and tested to assure they remain that way.
RGD/Dave

User avatar
ultracarry
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2605
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Yucaipa, ca

Re: weimerener

Post by ultracarry » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:16 pm

I saw one last weekend right off the line Sprint and roll another dog. Fastest I saw the weim run the entire brace and the furthest he got from the handler (all of 50 yards).

Some look great on point and prob have a good temperament but I would say those are few and far between. Too many consistant bird dogs to waste time and effort with a bad one.

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: weimerener

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:33 pm

Ultra,
It is a shame the owners of these animals do not realize what they truly own, if the Weimar was a good German dog he would have been carrying the other dog around by the neck and presented it to his master, trying to use a good Weimar dog in a field trial is more than just foolish, the dogs have been tested to standard for 100's of years. Playing these kind of games with a Weimar dog is just a waste of time and can be dangerous for the other animals, a good Weimar versatile hunting dogs should be tested by jumping a 5 rail fence with fox in his mouth, not be playing FT games with other dogs. I blame American AKC breeders and unknowldegable Weimar owners for this kind of foolishness. The real German Weimar dog is capable of running as fully grown Stag to the ground for his master.
Just think about what this Weimar dog used foolishly, in playing Ft games could have done to that FT type dog. Weimar dogs are not
game players, and US people need to understand what they own, when they purchase a Weimar dog. I sat on my log cabin front porch and watched a Weimar breeder lauch a retrieving dummy 1000 yards into the forest at 2 Oclock in the moring, with night vision we watched his Weimar dogs retreive that dummy, before it hardly hit the ground, when a Weimar dog wants to run few animals can keep up with them. However a Weimar dog can become so attached to his master that he will not go 50 yards away from him, the Weimar dog you saw instinctively would not leaved his masters safety zone, many American Weimar dogs become like this.

RGD/Dave

User avatar
Fieldmaster
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:42 pm
Location: Hagerstown,MD

Re: weimerener

Post by Fieldmaster » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:26 pm

I sat on my log cabin front porch and watched a Weimar breeder lauch a retrieving dummy 1000 yards into the forest at 2 Oclock in the moring, with night vision we watched his Weimar dogs retreive that dummy, before it hardly hit the ground

:lol: :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll:
Little to much to drink today Beans !!!!

User avatar
LincolnAlexander
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: weimerener

Post by LincolnAlexander » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:30 pm

A good Weimaraner, should be able to adjust to situations... in big open country (hunting or field trialing) the dog should open up. In the grouse woods, or on pheasent the dog will likely tighten up. To say a good Weimaraner can't run in AKC field trials is untrue (I know some that are VC's or UT prized dogs from NAVHDA who do quite well in a field trial... not a lot, but the number is growing.)

I think what has been said already sums things up... there are a lot of Weims that no longer have hunting ability, but there are still some breeders (and the number seems to be growing) who are producing good hunting/field dogs. If you want a Weim, do some research and you will have a good chance of getting a nice one :).

Edit: A good Weim also should NOT be dog or people agressive. Being protective of its owner should definitely not mean that the Weim cannot run/hunt with other dogs, and in hearing from a couple breeders in Europe, they are working to do away with the stigma that Weim's are aggressive.
CanCH Stonepoint's the Missing Link FD, RDX, V (Lincoln)
NorthLink Mattie's Bayou Shade NAVHDA NAII (108) (Shade)
NorthLink's Shaken Not Stirred NAVHDA NAI (112) (Olive)
http://www.northlinkweimaraners.com

Trekmoor
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1878
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:09 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: weimerener

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:24 am

You seem to be having the same troubles with this breed that we have here. Too many are bred for the show ring and for pet homes. We also have our share of biters among this breed. Biters of other dogs and biters of people. The last dog that bit me was about 15 years ago and that was a weimy on a training day. I have yet to see one of this breed that I'd want to own as a worker although I have been told there are a few good ones. The weims I have seen all pointed readily but were slow to medium in pace and very close to medium close in range. Most of them were a bit too interested in ground scenting for my liking.

I'd play safe and get a GSP.

Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: weimerener

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:39 am

FM,
The jack was definitely good, maybe you should concentrate on adding something useful to the conversation,
rather than messing with another member. Looks like you have a GSP in your Avatar, add your thoughts on them
verses the Weimar as the man requested.

Alexander,
Nobody said a good Weimar could not adjust to the hunting situations, they adapt to just about every situation they are trained for, and many do participate in the AKC hunting tests, however using a Weimar in FT type competitions is no what the dog was bred for, you know very well that Weimar dogs are tested to standard, not used in FT type games. In Germany they still have the aggression test in their standard testing, granted here in the USA, AKC does not test in this manner. However 100's of years of breeding is not going to be altered in just a few generations, the USA breeders trying to change the dogs guard instincts have a long road a head of them. Frankly that guard instinct was one of the big reasons my deaf daughters constant companion was a beautiful female Weimar, her hearing dog was also her security, and one heck of a Grouse Pheasant dog also.

RGD/Dave
Last edited by Ryman Gun Dog on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ruffshooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Maine

Re: weimerener

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:07 am

If I remember correctly, (which I may not be): Were they not primarily a big game hunting dog. Hogs, deer, cats? I believe it was not to long ago, (In the history of dogs) that they turned more towards birds simply because hunting changed in Eastern Europe.

So it is no wonder that their breedings which turned them more towards bird dogs is not that strong.. Then you get the people that buy them simply because they are neat looking, and show but no hunting.

I commend those that breed for the hunt. Keep up the good work. I have seen a few work. One was great, one serviceable, the other 3 not so much, but only one of those was dog aggressive.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: weimerener

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:29 am

Ladies & Gentlemen,
Please do not get me wrong, I love Weimar dogs, have owned them most of my life. My intention was to make sure any prospective owner investigate and purchase a good Weimar dog, from a breeder who is repetatively producing good hunting Weimar stock.

Ruff,
Weimar dogs are Versatile hunting dogs, fur and feather, named for the Weimar kings of Germany, who bred them.
The Weimar Kings hunted both big game and upland game with their chosen breed, further their dogs were bred with a guard instinct to protect the Castles they lived in, along with the masters both at home and in the field. They were also used to protect and befriend the Weimar famlies deaf children. The Weimar dogs were not just a big game animal during the age of Weimar Kings, they were a true V dog, and lived as part of the Weimar family. Many of these prize Weimar animals lived better lives than most of the people of the age of Kings.

RGD/Dave

User avatar
GrayDawg
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: New England

Re: weimerener

Post by GrayDawg » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:34 am

totalblitz wrote:I have both weims and shorthairs and can say my weims are just as good. Its all about the breeding you have too pay closer attention with weims because alot of the lines have been bred for show. Just make sure it is a good hunting bloodline!
One question- do your weims exhibit the same range as your GSPs when hunting more open cover?

Rob
May all your dog's points be productive & your arrows avoid all timber

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: weimerener

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:02 am

[Playing these kind of games with a Weimar dog is just a waste of time and can be dangerous for the other animals, a good Weimar versatile hunting dogs should be tested by jumping a 5 rail fence with fox in his mouth, not be playing FT games with other dogs./quote]



Well there was a nice pro couple out west last week who sure enjoyed trailing with Weims and they are from your neck of the woods...you just offended them because you are rude.

I sat on my log cabin front porch and watched a Weimar breeder lauch a retrieving dummy 1000 yards into the forest at 2 Oclock in the moring, with night vision we watched his Weimar dogs retreive that dummy, before it hardly hit the ground
How stupid do you think people are? You cannot see a dog in the woods around your cabin at 200 yards with night vision let alone 1000 yards. From the ATN website
You can always see further on a night where the moon and stars are out, then if it is cloudy and overcast. We typically state that you can tell the difference between a male and a female or a dog and a deer at about 75 to 100 yards. However, if you were looking across an open field and there was a half moon out you could see a barn or a house 500 yards away.

Remember, that the purpose of an NVD is to see in the dark not necessarily at a long distance like a binocular.
MY GOD SOMETIMES I HATE THE INTERNET AND I LOATHE MYSELF FOR READING THIS GARBAGE.

User avatar
ultracarry
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2605
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Yucaipa, ca

Re: weimerener

Post by ultracarry » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:13 am

A lot of weim pros were out west for the western regionals.... Doesn't narrow it down at all. It is sad chukar. Imagine some people train their dog from what they read on a forum too.

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: weimerener

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:19 am

I omitted their names purposely...I really doubt they would take the time to engage in a forum as they are true dog people day light to dark in the week I watched them, and I doubt they would take the time to engage in this mindless dribble, let alone respond to Dave. However, I would feel horrible if per chance I offended them by using the as an example. They did some nice things with the dogs, but admitted openly that it was often a challenge with Weims to start them and instill the drive for birds that is far more built in in the GSP world. I think that is the type of information that is useful to the original poster.

Not a bunch of BS and lies about 2AM with Jason Bourne, James Bond and Seal Team Six on a front porch in rural Pennsylvania

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: weimerener

Post by Garrison » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:37 am

Gentleman

You have not experienced a challenge nor laid your eyes on a fine gun dog, until you have seen a Weim working a badger on a walking point in the Pennsylvania woods at 2 am with night vision goggles on. It is a tradition passed down from generation to generation and the absolute pinnacle of fine dog work.

On a side note I saw a few dogs get picked up for a walking point this weekend.

User avatar
mcbosco
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3577
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:22 pm
Location: Monmouth County NJ

Re: weimerener

Post by mcbosco » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:44 am

Garrison wrote:Gentleman

You have not experienced a challenge nor laid your eyes on a fine gun dog, until you have seen a Weim working a badger on a walking point in the Pennsylvania woods at 2 am with night vision goggles on. It is a tradition passed down from generation to generation and the absolute pinnacle of fine dog work.

On a side note I saw a few dogs get picked up for a walking point this weekend.
Don't you mean Ground Hogs? I have heard of this badger tradition since I live in NJ but that was many decades ago. I doubt there is a badger left in PA.

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: weimerener

Post by Garrison » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:49 am

By next week it will be Grizzly Bears!

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: weimerener

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:03 pm

ultracarry wrote:A lot of weim pros were out west for the western regionals.... Doesn't narrow it down at all. It is sad chukar. Imagine some people train their dog from what they read on a forum too.
Bu you have to remember a lot of what they are reading is what you are writing.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
ultracarry
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2605
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Yucaipa, ca

Re: weimerener

Post by ultracarry » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:14 pm

If that's referencing the post above... About the dog rolling the other I didn't have any skin in the game. If it was my dog getting rolled I would have let them know that if it was done again I would run thier dog over with the horse. I was pissed for the other owner and handler of the dog that got rolled.

If it was my dog that rolled another I would run it over myself before I picked it up and then have a come to Jesus meeting with it. I Think a lot of people whould do the same but others are ignorant and believe thier dog didn't mean it or isn't mean. They just had incidental contact. I call BS, ill give a fair warning and if the handler doesn't do the right thing they can sue me after all in California you are either an attorney or you have one.

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: weimerener

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:44 pm

Garrison wrote:Gentleman

You have not experienced a challenge nor laid your eyes on a fine gun dog, until you have seen a Weim working a badger on a walking point in the Pennsylvania woods at 2 am with night vision goggles on. It is a tradition passed down from generation to generation and the absolute pinnacle of fine dog work.

On a side note I saw a few dogs get picked up for a walking point this weekend.
Did you run your pup? I'm heading to Rhode Island in a month to run Starky in his 2nd trial. I don't think there is a Puppy stake so I'll have to run in a Derby throwdown trial. It will be interesting to say the least. Then off the quail and back to puppy for the rest of the spring. Then Puppy and Derby in the fall since they will be all wild bird trials.

User avatar
Ruffshooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Maine

Re: weimerener

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:57 pm

Weimaraner
The Weimaraner's coat colour led to its nickname of "the Grey Ghost".
Other names Weimaraner Vorstehhund
Nicknames Weim
Grey Ghost
Country of origin Germany
[hide]Traits
Weight Male 32–37 kg (71–82 lb)
Female 25–32 kg (55–71 lb)
Height Male 63–68 cm (25–27 in)
Female 58–63 cm (23–25 in)

[show]Classification and standards
FCI Group 7 Section 1 #099 standard
AKC Sporting standard
ANKC Group 3 (Gun dogs) standard
CKC Group 1 - Sporting standard
KC (UK) Gundogs standard
NZKC Gundogs standard
UKC Gun Dogs standard

Dog (Canis lupus familiaris)

The Weimaraner (English pronunciation: /ˈvaɪmərɑːnər/ vy-mə-rah-nər) is a dog that was originally bred for hunting in the early 19th century. Early Weimaraners were used by royalty for hunting large game such as boar, bear, and deer. As the popularity of large game hunting began to decline, Weimaraners were used for hunting smaller animals like fowl, rabbits, and foxes. Weimaraners are great water dogs as evidenced by their webbed toes.

The Weimaraner is an all purpose gun dog. The name comes from the Grand Duke of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Karl August, whose court, based in the city of Weimar (now in modern day Germany), enjoyed hunting.

Thanks Dave; Guess I remembered in two seperate parts.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: weimerener

Post by Garrison » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Winchey wrote:
Garrison wrote:Gentleman

You have not experienced a challenge nor laid your eyes on a fine gun dog, until you have seen a Weim working a badger on a walking point in the Pennsylvania woods at 2 am with night vision goggles on. It is a tradition passed down from generation to generation and the absolute pinnacle of fine dog work.

On a side note I saw a few dogs get picked up for a walking point this weekend.
Did you run your pup? I'm heading to Rhode Island in a month to run Starky in his 2nd trial. I don't think there is a Puppy stake so I'll have to run in a Derby throwdown trial. It will be interesting to say the least. Then off the quail and back to puppy for the rest of the spring. Then Puppy and Derby in the fall since they will be all wild bird trials.
Ran him the first time this weekend no ribbons but had a great time and without further interruption back to Weims!

orbirdhunter
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:43 am
Location: Spokane washington

Re: weimerener

Post by orbirdhunter » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:34 pm

If, and IF you can find a solid hunting breeder then they are pretty comparable in my book. Here in oregon i've actually seen quite a few weims out and about and i have seen some pretty nice ones, I saw a pair of really nice ones chukar hunting one day, they were hard charging 300yd dogs that pegged alot of birds that day, nice temperments etc. Good dogs.
I just think that it takes alot more research and there are a ALOT fewer really good hunting weim kennels compared to say a GSP. But if you like the breed then i am sure with some research you could find a nice dog.

User avatar
chiendog
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:34 pm
Location: Great White North

Re: weimerener

Post by chiendog » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:27 pm

I think that we can all agree that the Weim's main problem outside of its native land is the fact that way too many non-hunting breeders are producing way too many grey couch potatoes with questionable abilities and questionable characters. But the question is why? How did a breed that was originally created and designed in virtually the exact same way as most other German pointing breeds, end up as the butt of so many jokes around hunters' camp fires?

I believe that the answer is money.

You see, in the 1930s, as soon as the first imported Weims got off the boat, North American promoters applied a very thick coating of bullsh** propaganda, myth and outright fairy tales to achieve their main goal: the creation of a market hungry for cute grey pups. Reading the old magazines and newspapers from the 1940s through to the 1960s it is clear that no other breed was ever given as much Madison Avenue spin as the Weim... and no other breed has suffered as much as a result.

You really have to read some of that stuff to understand how crazy it was. And it is incredible that it worked, I mean it was so far fetched, people should have seen right through it. What is even more incredible is that so many people STILL believe it. Despite all the advances we have made in that last few decades, despite the internet, google, facebook and all the other means we have at our disposal to find reliable information on the breed, there are still a lot of people, breeders, breed enthusiasts, club members, even folks who have had Weims for 50+ years that still drink the "bleep" Kool-aid.

I could go on and on about all of this, but it is getting late and my grey dogs need to visit the backyard one more time before we all hit the sack. So let me just touch on some of major points:

The Weim was NOT developed by the Grand Duke Karl August. In all likelihood the guy never saw a Weim in his entire life and if he did, he would have had no clue what it was. More info here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ghost.html

The Weim was NOT developed to "hunt bear, boar and deer" and then "changed" into a bird dog. It was developed in the same way as the GSP: tracking dogs called Leithunde in German (Lymers or leash hounds in English) were crossed with Pointers and Setters as German hunters sought to create their own national breeds of pointing dogs...mainly because it was fashionable at the time, not because they suddenly had no more big game to hunt and turned their attention to huns and pheasants. To this day, the average German hunter with a pointing breed rarely, if ever, hunts upland birds. He/she mainly uses his/her dogs to either drive big game to the guns and/or track wounded game.

Weims have NOT been "tested for hundreds of years". The breed was only formally recognized in 1897 and almost went extinct twice, once before the First World War and once just after. Systematic testing only resumed in the 1960s.

Weimaraners were NOT jealously guarded by the royalty and sold only to other aristocrats. Classified ads in newspapers from the time clearly reveal that breeders would sell a pup to anyone willing to pay the asking price which was about average for a continental pointing breed, about half what good Pointers or Setters were going for.

Weimaraners, or any other German breed of pointing dog for that matter were never, EVER, expected drag down full grown stags for their masters. I mean c'mon...whiskey tango foxtrot! A full grown stag (latin:Cervus elaphus, German: Rotwild) can weigh up to a 1000 pounds! Any dog, of any size that tries to "bring one down" without two dozen pack mates and a few armed guys on horseback is suicidal.

Field trials for Weims are NOT "foolish", until NAVHDA came along, field trials were the ONLY thing keeping the hunt alive in the breed. Today, field trials, hunt tests and NAVHDA are the best things anyone can do with their weim... besides hunt with it of course!

The reason I bring this up is that if we want to turn things around for the breed in North America, we have to stop treating it as if it were something radically different from all the other German pointing breeds. It is not. Breed good ones to good ones and you get more good ones. Breed crap to crap and guess what you get? Look, other than its color, there are very few practical differences between a Weim and a GSP or a GLP (for the longhaired version) and if we had more dedicated field trial and NAVHDA breeders breeding them, there would be a LOT more top knotch Weims around. But anyway, I wrote about the whole "so very different" angle here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... t-way.html

If you'd like to see some eye candy of a Weim, check this out: http://www.craigkoshykphoto.ca/p759258469#h13627e70 The photos are of my dog Souris. She is out of 100% US field trial stock, has hunted birds for 12 seasons and still runs like a three year old. Oh, and in case you are wondering, my friends who breed Weims in Germany have hunted over her on many occasions. They have nothing but good things to say about her as a hunting dog.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: weimerener

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:04 pm

You see, in the 1930s, as soon as the first imported Weims got off the boat, North American promoters applied a very thick coating of bullsh** propaganda, myth and outright fairy tales to achieve their main goal: the creation of a market hungry for cute grey pups. Reading the old magazines and newspapers from the 1940s through to the 1960s it is clear that no other breed was ever given as much Madison Avenue spin as the Weim... and no other breed has suffered as much as a result.


Exactly true. The og nwas built up to be a super dog and no dog could have lived up to the hype. People got them and were terribly disappointed because they were just an average dog but they expected so much more they just gave up on them for field work and the rest is history. There are some pretty good ones out here in the average hunters hands anymore but they were so over sold they just couldn't succeed with trialers.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Ryman Gun Dog
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 am
Location: Endless Mountains of Pa

Re: weimerener

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:15 pm

Chien Dog,
113 years is a long time, for a dog to be bred and tested, and that is just what they have record on, so hundreds of years is correct.
I also love these all knowing people who have never launched a retrieving dummy down over a mountain side and doubt a dog can find it in the dark, and retrieve it to hand, a 1000 yards down over a mountain side is nothing at all, a good Weimar dog thinks its just a game.
However playing FT games with a good Weimar dogs is more than foolish, it borders on dog abuse. FT people never kept the Weimar breed alive, the Weimar breed is very much alive and well in Germany. However it is to bad what has been done to them here in the USA.
Got some news for you on the Deer hunting with Weimar dog, the boys in the LA swamps hunt Deer with them all the time and their Weimar dogs run the Deer to the ground even here in the USA. Got to admit the Hogs they also hunt with them are real tough on the Weimar dogs.
There was a man who bred Weimar dogs right outside of Slidell, La in the late 70's, bred his Weimar dogs specifically for hunting Deer.
I purchased one of his Weimar dogs, never did hunt Deer with her however, was one great gun dog, on everything for TX Quail to Turkey.

I do have to admit the new modern breeders are trying hard to reclomate the Weimar breed, but turning the Weimar into just a
bird dog is not doing the Weimar dog justice.

RGD/Dave

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: weimerener

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:58 pm

...But you said....I thought....well if you re-read....it's just above....
Oh never mind...
Good come back Dave!

User avatar
GrayDawg
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: New England

Re: weimerener

Post by GrayDawg » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:02 am

chiendog wrote:I think that we can all agree that the Weim's main problem outside of its native land is the fact that way too many non-hunting breeders are producing way too many grey couch potatoes with questionable abilities and questionable characters. But the question is why?
As someone who owned/bred Weims for the field back in the early 90's, I'll simply offer this..........

Here in America, back in the early 80's, a bunch of silver-haired ladies who never hunted a day in their lives decided that the gray coat of the Weimaraner was beautiful and they were going to develop lines strictly for the bench and kept a very narrow focus of their breeding program for confirmation. They decided that "function would follow form". After 10 years of this, with everyone trying to keep up with the Jones' and this trend building momentum like a wildfire- the Weimaraner, a breed here in America that already was behind the 8-ball in regards to a wide and/or deep gene pool, was in dire straits with respect to the amount of breeders who were really focused on producing field quality dogs. Please understand- when I refer to the term "field quality", I'm not limiting this term to describe dogs who only could compete in field trials- I'm including the wider spectrum of field venues (NAVHDA, AKC Field Trials, NSTRA......)

I'm also not saying that there weren't "some" breeders of field quality Weims by the early 90's, there were. But there were so few, in order to maintain an appropriate amount of hunt/prey drive/point in their breedings, they were forced to breed fairly tight which ultimately led to the health issues that the breed is facing today (predisposition to bloat, epilepsy.......).

I was talking to a man one day in the late 90's at a hunt test, his dog- the #2 producing Sire in the country the year before (WCA), had sired a litter whose puppies were going to run in a JH test as 9 month olds. The man, told me- without hesitation that he could only hunt his dog for 30 minutes at a time before he needed to give him water then put him up because the dog was "prone to bloat". I asked him why in the world he & his wife continued to breed this dog if he was known to bloat. His answer, "He's so sound conformationally, we need to keep his genes in the gene pool."

That mentality my friends, is why the Weimaraner is where it is today.

Rob
Last edited by GrayDawg on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
May all your dog's points be productive & your arrows avoid all timber

User avatar
Winchey
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:22 am
Location: Oromocto New Brunswick, Canada

Re: weimerener

Post by Winchey » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:06 am

Dave you should write a book. I am not kidding when I say I would be first in line to buy a copy. You are a facinating man.

User avatar
chiendog
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 222
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:34 pm
Location: Great White North

Re: weimerener

Post by chiendog » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:04 am

Here in America, back in the early 80's, a bunch of silver-haired ladies who never hunted a day in their lives decided that the gary coat of the Weimaraner was beautiful and they were going to develop lines strictly for the bench and kept a very narrow focus of their breeding program for confirmation.
Let's not forget that they were given a huge boost for their market by the photographer William Wegman. His photographs, books, t-shirts, mouse-pads, calendars etc. etc. feature humiliated Weims dressed up as freakin Cinderella and Red Riding Hood. They've have made him (and the show matrons) boat loads of money and pushed the breed further down the slippery slope of doom.

User avatar
GrayDawg
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: New England

Re: weimerener

Post by GrayDawg » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:16 am

chiendog wrote:
Here in America, back in the early 80's, a bunch of silver-haired ladies who never hunted a day in their lives decided that the gray coat of the Weimaraner was beautiful and they were going to develop lines strictly for the bench and kept a very narrow focus of their breeding program for confirmation.
Let's not forget that they were given a huge boost for their market by the photographer William Wegman. His photographs, books, t-shirts, mouse-pads, calendars etc. etc. feature humiliated Weims dressed up as freakin Cinderella and Red Riding Hood. They've have made him (and the show matrons) boat loads of money and pushed the breed further down the slippery slope of doom.
Craig,
I couldn't agree more.......... I've really tried to repress those f@#king pictures from my memory- makes me sick to my stomach. :evil:

Rob
May all your dog's points be productive & your arrows avoid all timber

User avatar
LincolnAlexander
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: weimerener

Post by LincolnAlexander » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:26 am

Just to clarify... there is an aggression test that is part of the JGHV testing for Weimaraners in Germany... however that test is to ensure that the Weimaraner is NOT aggressive; the purpose of the test is to ensure that a Weim remains calm and confident, if they do show aggression, fear, etc they fail. I know quite a few hunters with Weims, and hunting Weim breeders and none of them want an aggressive dog.

Hunting ability, temperment, health, are all part of the same package... do your research, find a good breeder and you will have just as a good a chance as with other breeds of getting a good dog (I would do the same type of research buying a hunting dog from any breed, granted it is tougher with Weimaraners for the reasons already mentioned in this thread.)
CanCH Stonepoint's the Missing Link FD, RDX, V (Lincoln)
NorthLink Mattie's Bayou Shade NAVHDA NAII (108) (Shade)
NorthLink's Shaken Not Stirred NAVHDA NAI (112) (Olive)
http://www.northlinkweimaraners.com

User avatar
GrayDawg
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 712
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 12:14 pm
Location: New England

Re: weimerener

Post by GrayDawg » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:38 am

Lincoln,
Are you any relation to Virginia Alexander?

Rob
May all your dog's points be productive & your arrows avoid all timber

User avatar
LincolnAlexander
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: weimerener

Post by LincolnAlexander » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:48 am

GrayDawg,
I am not, Lincoln is actually my Weims name, and I made a joke a long while back that his middle name was Alexander and it stuck; never even thought about how it might look like Ginny's name, lol. My real first name is J.R. (or Jon-Ross):).
CanCH Stonepoint's the Missing Link FD, RDX, V (Lincoln)
NorthLink Mattie's Bayou Shade NAVHDA NAII (108) (Shade)
NorthLink's Shaken Not Stirred NAVHDA NAI (112) (Olive)
http://www.northlinkweimaraners.com

User avatar
Garrison
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Winchester CA

Re: weimerener

Post by Garrison » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:54 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Chien Dog,
113 years is a long time, for a dog to be bred and tested, and that is just what they have record on, so hundreds of years is correct.
I also love these all knowing people who have never launched a retrieving dummy down over a mountain side and doubt a dog can find it in the dark, and retrieve it to hand, a 1000 yards down over a mountain side is nothing at all, a good Weimar dog thinks its just a game.

RGD/Dave
I don't think that anybody doubts the dog or the 1000yard howitzer dummy launcher, I think it was the part about you staying awake past 8:00 that was kind of hard to believe! :D

User avatar
SHORTFAT
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:25 pm
Location: northwest Pa.

Re: weimerener

Post by SHORTFAT » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:00 pm

Good Lord, but this thread is a CLASSIC!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: my gut hurts! :mrgreen: I have experience with only one Weim & I can honestly say I like the dog better than it's master... It has a wonderful disposition, works well with other dogs and is very staunch on point with a real nose for feathers... 8) But from all I've heard it is the exception to the rule, and I do at least give the owner credit for alot of work and time in training the dog to be a fine gun and family dog. That being said, unless you are just in love with the breed (nothing wrong with that), there are way too many fine and consistant breeds out there to choose from! Why risk time and money on a project that could bring a ton of grief? :?:
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
- Mark Twain.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
-Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
LincolnAlexander
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm
Location: Southern Ontario

Re: weimerener

Post by LincolnAlexander » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:48 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:That being said, unless you are just in love with the breed (nothing wrong with that), there are way too many fine and consistant breeds out there to choose from! Why risk time and money on a project that could bring a ton of grief? :?:
I can agree with this to an extent, because if you don't do any/much research you would be far more likely end up with a good hunting GSP/Brittney/PP/etc vs Weim... but on the other hand, if you do research it, you have just as much chance with any other breed. Of course it will probably end up costing you more for a Weim :D .
CanCH Stonepoint's the Missing Link FD, RDX, V (Lincoln)
NorthLink Mattie's Bayou Shade NAVHDA NAII (108) (Shade)
NorthLink's Shaken Not Stirred NAVHDA NAI (112) (Olive)
http://www.northlinkweimaraners.com

User avatar
CherrystoneWeims
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: S. Carolina

Re: weimerener

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:28 pm

Chien's post is spot on for describing and giving history of the breed.

There are still quite a few breeders of Weims who have no concern for hunt and only show their dogs. Just last week a breeder told me that she has no interest in field work with her dogs but she is absolutely SURE that her dogs still have field ability. When I questioned her and asked her how she knew this if she isn't doing field work she mentioned ONE dog from her breeding who has a JH title! :roll: To which I replied that a JH tells me nothing. She promptly defriended me on FB after saying a few other things. I so wanted to tell her to go and breed Yorkies!

There are some of us who are truly breeding for field ability, conformation, health, temperament, ETC. WATCH OUT FOR BREEDERS WHO ARE ONLY BREEDING PARENTS BECAUSE OF THEIR TITLES!!!!! These breeders are not hunters and have NO clue as to what a great dog in the field looks like. I'm seeing some MH Weims that I would not want to hunt behind due to lack of drive IMHO. Go out and WATCH the parents if possible. Check out what they are producing for offspring also.

A good breeder is going to be going to the National Championship to check out dogs and will have dogs that are all-breed competitive. (YEP Weims can definitely be all-breed competitive!)
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners
Breeding for Conformation and Performance
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine De Pearl
CH Cherystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX,BROM
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH

totalblitz
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: weimerener

Post by totalblitz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:02 pm

[/quote
One question- do your weims exhibit the same range as your GSPs when hunting more open cover?

Rob[/quote
Range yes foot speed no. I own three weims and three shorthairs. Only one of my weims compares in foot speed. With that said my friend has weims that he runs in all breed trials and does very well. They are big big running weims and his weims as mine all have great temperments!

Post Reply