Llewellin setter grouse dogs

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t-setter
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Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by t-setter » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:18 pm

I am seeking information on Llewellin English setter breeders who specialize in producing grouse dogs, or info on specific lines of Llewellins that are known to be good grouse dogs. Most of my experience has been with cover dog field trial-bred setters. While I love the style and intensity of the cover dogs, I have struggled with their independence and propensity to range too far for my taste. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by highcotton » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:57 pm

If I wanted a close working Llewellin with nose I would consider Wilbur Williams in Linclon, IL. His breeding program is designed to produce the kind of dog you describe. I will vouch for him as an honest person.

http://www.williams-llewellins.com/

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Bigriver05 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:01 pm

I own a 9 month old setter from Riversides Kennel in Dauphin, Pa. I am very happy with his development on grouse so far. He found 3 yesterday on a ugly, snowy and windy day here in Central Pa. I would recommend their pups to anyone. I also have heard good about Lynn Hill Setters.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by massman » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:15 pm

I just bought a 4 dvd set of the old series "hunting with hank" and "dash in the uplands' its a tv series that used to be on. a guy would hunt upland birds with his llewelin setter. he got his setters from KING LLEWELIN SETTERS dashing bondu lines. also they breed with MOUNTAIN VIEW KENNELS you might want to check them out. http://www.llewellinsetter.8k.com/ :D :D www.llewellin.com/

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:33 pm

High Cotton has some of the best and I would take his recommendation if he suggested where to look. He knows what he talks about.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Hookadooka BirdDogs » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:31 pm

I have purchased two Lews from Bob Bailey @ Bob's Straight Creek kennels in West Liberty, KY. Great close working Grouse Dogs. His dogs are usually $500. m/f and he works his dogs with about 700 quail on prem.
http://www.bobsstraightcreekllewellins.com
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by big steve46 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:31 am

I would recommend Jim YerYar of Midland, Indiana. He's where I got my Llewellin. He actually hunts wild grouse with his dogs. He's honest and reasonable.
big steve

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:46 am

t-Setter,
We always recommend Lynn-Hill here in Pa to our actual Grouse hunting clients, they produce repetative high quality Grouse dog stock, that gets the job done in the Pa woods.
RGD/Dave

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Ruffshooter » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:35 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:t-Setter,
they produce repetative high quality Grouse dog stock, that gets the job done in the Pa woods.
RGD/Dave
They may want to hunt more than just PA. :wink:
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by highcotton » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:54 pm

massman wrote:I just bought a 4 dvd set of the old series "hunting with hank" and "dash in the uplands' its a tv series that used to be on. a guy would hunt upland birds with his llewelin setter. he got his setters from KING LLEWELIN SETTERS dashing bondu lines. also they breed with MOUNTAIN VIEW KENNELS you might want to check them out. http://www.llewellinsetter.8k.com/ :D :D http://www.llewellin.com/
If you ever intend to compete in any trial venue with a Llewellin it must be registered with the FDSB. Llewellins registered with the IPDBA are not recognized by the FDSB, AKC, NLGDC or NSTRA as Llewellin Setters and are not allowed to enter their sanctioned trials.

By the same token if you ever intend to breed an IPDBA registered Llewellin with a FDSB Llewellin the litter cannot be registered as Llewellins.

I'm not saying that you can't get a good dog from the IPDBA registry but they come with the above limitations.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Outlaw » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:05 pm

Anybody know what happened with King and a couple other llewellin guys that caused them to lose FDSB registration?....you can see they bred a ton of generations of dogs in almost all of the FDSB pedigrees out there but then all of a sudden they switched over to the "other" registration that Cotton surmized the limitations on.....I know it was a difference of opinion of sorts with the governing powers that be....but it seems weird that many are still breeding FDSB registerable animals from the stock of these folks that are now not registerable.......just curious myself...always thought LLews were beautiful dogs but I've always been a shorthair guy....maybe as I age I can add a classic double, better bourbons, great cigars and a LLew to my seasoned experience.
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Hookadooka BirdDogs » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:08 am

Outlaw wrote:Anybody know what happened with King and a couple other llewellin guys that caused them to lose FDSB registration?....you can see they bred a ton of generations of dogs in almost all of the FDSB pedigrees out there but then all of a sudden they switched over to the "other" registration that Cotton surmized the limitations on.....I know it was a difference of opinion of sorts with the governing powers that be....but it seems weird that many are still breeding FDSB registerable animals from the stock of these folks that are now not registerable.......just curious myself...always thought LLews were beautiful dogs but I've always been a shorthair guy....maybe as I age I can add a classic double, better bourbons, great cigars and a LLew to my seasoned experience.

The only way llewellins can be certified by FDSB is through DNA testing. If the test doesn't show direct lineage they won't register them.
As a side note to George Bird Evans Hemlock dogs, maybe 25 years ago I met a 72 year old Gentleman in the Grouse woods of southern Ohio who was hunting with one of George's dogs after having Britts for over 25 years. He was the the classic grouse hunter in the old New England sense. He had the classic double gun, and from the part of Cincinnati he was from, probably drank the better bourbon and smoked those fine Cuban cigars. He was such an interesting guy that I can still remember the exact hill we were on in Brush Creek forest. Anyway, he was so disappointed with his Evan's bred Setter, that I gave him the name of a Brittany Breeder I had used in the past. His problem with an otherwise great dog was that it wouldn't point grouse and he only fired at pointed birds. It would point quail, woodcock, & pheasant but not grouse. He said he hadn't killed a grouse in two years. He also said he wasn't allowed to breed it with any other dogs but GBE's, couldn't sell it unless neutered, etc. etc. I never met him again, but I bet he finished off his hunting days with a Brittany.

Sorry for the edit, but my memory was jogged by these posts. The following year I sat at the same table at the SW Ohio Ruffed Grouse banquet with the Britt breeder. We both had donated dogs to the banquet, he had a Britt donated and I a Gordon Setter pup. I asked him if he had sold a Brittany to an older gentleman from Cincy in the past year and sure enough he had sold my new found friend a Brittany. That old guy is probably in Britt heaven still after pointed grouse. Hope so.
Last edited by Hookadooka BirdDogs on Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Hookadooka BirdDogs » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:26 am

For more info on FDSB registered Llewellins, go to:

http://www.nalba.org/llewellin_setters.htm
Pointed birds: If it's flyin', it's dyin'.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Winchey » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:49 am

Hookadooka BirdDogs wrote:For more info on FDSB registered Llewellins, go to:

http://www.nalba.org/llewellin_setters.htm
Thanks for clearing that up. I found it strange considering it took next to no effort to get my Small Munsterlander FDSB registered.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Fester » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:10 am

King got thrown out of FDSB a few years back over some DNA problems I think it was about the time he found the long lost Russian Llewellins, having said that it is almost impossible to find a Llewellins that don't go directly to his kennel Al King passed back in october RIP I had the oppertunity to visit him 1 last time about 2 months before that and he didn't remember anything it was pitiful and the out of the clear blue he remembered what we had talked about 2 years before, anyway alot of breeder have lost out with FDSB King Miller just to name 2 big ones. I personally think Hank was not a good move for the breeding program he was a TV Star so they breed everything to him, he never won anything
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Outlaw » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:35 am

Thanks guys for all the insight and answers, I was aware of the DNA tracking to confirm rights to "Llew-dom" in registry and how they had always been separated as a "different" setter altogether and I also had read the article and alot of others on the subject...I love to know histories of things especially in the dog world....but it was my understanding that there was a long time personality conflict between King and FDSB ownership that ended in a debate and some flexing of muscles in banning them from registry...I know you'd be hard pressed to find a pedigree that didn't contain somewhere those now "banned" dogs and yet they continue to register in FDSB dogs from those "banned" lines....seems like a big conflict of interest and alot of drama...after 40 years of efforts in a breed program and an aged guy becoming ill, I can only imagine this would have had to have contributed to expediting his passing. I guess we'll never really know if there was any DNA in the woodpile anywhere that does or does not trace back to LLewellin....as I'm pretty sure they tracked pedigrees first to Llewellins dogs long before there was DNA...then assumed those pedigrees of the modern day specimens as genuine and accurate and DNA'd those then current specimens as the standard to judge the future by....Since Llwellin himself created his dogs by crossing lines and breeds, would it be safe to say that had there been DNA back then it would have varied even within his own gene pool? We had a guy (Llewellin) who had a pile of money and time and wanted to create what was in his mind the perfect setter...he spared no exspense, bought a pile of dogs that he liked from around the globe and bred hundreds of dogs until he got what he wanted...then got his new found "line" of dogs named after him...other folks really liked them too and they spread to buyers throughout the world....flash forward 80-100 years and with success in field trials...the USA adopts this "line" as individual from setters as a whole and we only have pedigrees and history notes....then modern science hits the DNA phase and we have only those existing specimens claimed by pedigree to be of this individual strain to be used as a baseline....would this DNA match other "Llewellins" in other parts of the world? What about if someone imported one-would it match ? And what percentages of similarity dictate enough to be "Llewellin" ?? I'm not a genetic scientist by any stretch but always wondered how anyone could prove that as reliable for a baseline ?? If I wanted a Llew, maybe someday I will, I'd want to know who was who in the zoo...and I'd hope I could get some answers...love the history...hate the drama...almost a consperacy theory....I'd also want the best dog from the best line...and I can only imagine that would lead to huge frustration in the search of sorting out those answers...I do know..I'd like a registered dog to be able to breed it should it turn out to be a great animal...but would the "registered" dogs available actually be the best dogs or would the "unregistered" dogs be superior animals....way too much to absorb for me....guess that's why I'm a shorthair guy and thankfully can read German.
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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Winchey » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:05 pm

Does anyone know who the banned dogs are? I think pretty well every FDSB Setter can be traced back to Gladstone, I think he was a Llew was he not?

Interesting thread.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Fester » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:37 pm

Traceability is not the problem the problem is it happened and there is no way to fix it, a lot if good dogs fell thru the cracks but there is no going back, Drenda King is still breeding the Bondu dogs along with a few other people but u can't compete them

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by LEWMAN » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:48 pm

Laurel mountian setters ,she just moved to the UP Michigan . I have 2 dogs my brother has 2 from proven lines.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by highcotton » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:20 pm

That pissing match between the Kings and FDSB was no fun for any of us Llewellin people but things have settled down now for the most part.

My personal complaint about the ordeal was the fact that I bought a pup from them just before their suspension. They knew they were going to be suspended and sold me the pup along with his FDSB registration application. When the FDSB denied my registration I tried for days to contact the Kings and they never returned my calls or e-mails.

To me it's not about the quality of the dogs. I will be the first to say that if not for Al King the Llewellin would be on the endangered species list. To me it's all about the caracter of the breeder. "Hunting with Hank" was the best, and worst thing that ever happened to the Llewellin. Although Hank was not the type dog I like he did bring about awareness and peaked interest in the strain. The bad part is that selling $1000 pups will change people. It makes some greedy and rest jealous. Those two qualities will not mix in a world as small as the Llewellin gene pool.

Bottom line, the future of the Llewellin lies with the FDSB because, as someone said "they have bigger britches"

By the way Dna testing can only prove parantage...It's not advanced enough yet to identify breeds much less strains of breeds and will not advance to that stage in my lifetime.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by t-setter » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:19 pm

Thanks for all of the suggestions and interesting follow-ups about the Llewellin lines (battle lines?). I was unaware of all of the controversy surrounding Llews. Perhaps I should look into Ryman-type setters instead. :?

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by mudhunter » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:05 pm

t-setter wrote:Thanks for all of the suggestions and interesting follow-ups about the Llewellin lines (battle lines?). I was unaware of all of the controversy surrounding Llews. Perhaps I should look into Ryman-type setters instead. :?
Check out www.onpointoutfitters.com They are located in southwest PA. The owner, Vince, breeds quality dogs that are really exceptional. I got a Llew from him a few years ago and it is an absolute grouse hunters dream. He runs a nice moderate range in the woods and aggressively seeks birds. He doesn't bump many nor does he sulk around a covert looking for a bird. We were shooting grouse over his points at seven months. Vince breeds dogs that have proven themselves on wild birds and planted, he is also very aware of health issues, he stands behind his dogs.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by JIM K » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:44 pm

t-setter wrote:Thanks for all of the suggestions and interesting follow-ups about the Llewellin lines (battle lines?). I was unaware of all of the controversy surrounding Llews. Perhaps I should look into Ryman-type setters instead. :?
drop RYMAN GUN DOG pm,he has ryman setter.
i like the LEWELLIN for smaller size and they do work closer but i have not seen ryman work ,only what i heard.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by solon » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:18 am

highcotton wrote: By the way Dna testing can only prove parentage...It's not advanced enough yet to identify breeds much less strains of breeds and will not advance to that stage in my lifetime.
What you say about the simple commercial DNA fingerprints offered by dog registries is certainly true.

I am not sure how advanced in age you are, but you are certainly wrong about that statement. You can commercially get your own whole genome sequenced now for $5000 and a complete genome can be sequenced for around $1000, the cost of a CT scan. Given a database of some complete genomes, it would be only a matter of crunching the data in some high powered computers to sort out breed histories and compositions. Actually the computing will be the more expensive aspect of the analysis.

This whole bit about genetic purity is nonsense, a left over bad idea from the eugenics of the early 20 th century and taken to a ridiculous and tragic level by the Nazis. Too much emphasis on some genetic purity of a line only leads to a downhill course of diminishing genetic diversity.

For humans, it turns out that unless you are from Africa, your own DNA is "contaminated" with some sequences from the extinct Neanderthal, as a result of cross breeding between modern H. sapiens and the Neanderthal about 30,000 or more years ago. There was also another another extinct human in Asia called the Danisovans that contributed sequences to modern humans, mainly in Asia.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... ecies.html

Because evolution preserved the DNA contributed by cross breeding, it no doubt served a useful purpose in man's survival. Dog breeds having been created in only a few centuries from cross breeding would show genomes with mixtures of sequences from multiple sources, eventually tracing back to the wolf ancestors. Approximately 25% of males in Asia have Y chromosomes that trace back to a progenitor, most likely Genghis Khan. You might call that a popular sire syndrome. Researchers are sequencing everything in sight these days. They are going to do 30,000 human genomes. Many dog genomes are being sequenced.

Moral of this story is you buy the dog, not the paper. Good bird dogs are good bird dogs and to produce them, it is best to have bred proven good dogs.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by highcotton » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:06 am

Thanks, I learned something from you. So you are saying the process would be very expensive and the results could be inaccurate but it is possible?

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:27 am

t-Setter,
Please understand I love all different type Setters, have owned FT type and Ryman type, all are great dogs. You need to refine what you are looking for however. If you want a Cover type Setter there are some very good dogs available, just watched a video featuring Dave Huges and his dog Grouse hunting, some real nice dog work in deed. If you are more into dual standard type, Ryman Grouse dogs we have a breeders list that we have developed over the years to pick from. I am currently looking at the Red & White Setters, who are just beautiful and very talented Grouse finders. Their style is different from most other Setter dogs however. You might also consider some incredible Gordon Grouse dog stock, from Holly at Tartana, or Dan Thomason at Sure Thing. There are simply different type Setter Grouse dogs, I was raised around George Rymans original gun dogs, so I happen to favor dual type Setter dogs, who meet breed standard. This is just my personal preference however. Each Setter line has its own way of hunting, I like a long legged dog who floats thru the Grouse woods, even in the serious snow we have in Potter County, Pa. Others like a very quick moving Llew Grouse dog that covers massive Ground quickly. Before you purchase I suggest you hunt behind several of the different Setter breed lines and decide which type Setter you actually prefer, each individaul owner has different qualifications for his life style, pick the Setter dog that
best fits your life style and hunting needs. Do your home work as to Pedigree, health testing and guarantees such as dog replacement before you purchase.
Good luck with acquiring your Setter
RGD/Dave

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by solon » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:47 am

highcotton wrote:Thanks, I learned something from you. So you are saying the process would be very expensive and the results could be inaccurate but it is possible?
Expense is relative. I think it costs $3 billion to do the first human genome and now the costs are approaching $1000. That is still expensive from the perspective of the owner that wants info on an individual dog, about the cost of a puppy. And it is way more info than one would want. But as the database is increased, it would be very very accurate.

A study I found particularly interesting was one where two parents and two children were fully sequenced. The children had known genetic disease and one point of the study was to see if genomic sequencing could identify the mutated genes. It did narrow the options down to about 4 genes, which included the ones known already to be mutated in those children. Older mapping techniques have much bigger problems with false positives in gene searches. Another interesting fact from that study is that the kids showed about 70 cross over events where the parental chromosomes had recombined and mixed maternal and paternal sections of DNA. I hadn't seen before where how much of this recombination was actually happening. It is a technology that should make it easier to identify the genes that specify a given trait, dogs, humans, or other species.

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:03 pm

t-Setter,
Here is a man who has a quality repeat Grouse dog breeding and I believe he may still have a pup or two.
I worked with Justins Evans pup from the mating of these two ES dogs, the pup I saw is one of the best Llew dogs I have seen in the Grouse woods in many years, has some Ryman blood back 3-4 generations and is a biddable serious bird finding machine.
Riverside Kennels, in Pa 717-921-0104.
good luck,
RGD/Dave

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Re: Llewellin setter grouse dogs

Post by JIM K » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:23 pm

the different colors of setters are nice.
his prices are good too at 700 pup.
when i was looking and talking to LYNNHILL for pup,had pick of litter on orange beltonpup.i like the orange/chestnut color best.

they were 1,000 dollars a pup.
there is another breeder , i wish i could remember his name that has nice HUNTING setter lines.
just cant remember his kennel. i met him at warriormarks trails last year and his dogs scored very high .

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