Ethical hunting.

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deke
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Ethical hunting.

Post by deke » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:38 pm

I was reading an article in one of my bow hunting magazines and the author was talking in depth about ethical hunting from his perspective. In bowhunting, i know that i would not shoot past where i am comfortable, dont take shots with other deer behind,........ It got me thinking what are some ethical "rules" that i fallow while bird hunting. I know when phesant hunting we all stay in a line, never shoot close to a dog, dont shoot birds flushed from another group, help guys find downed birds, and so on. Just wondering what all of you think on this issue, and if their is anywhere that this topic has come up? And also what are your ethical rules.

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Angus
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Angus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Very interesting. I've never thought about ethics while Bird hunting. I do the things you mentioned, but feel that is just how it is supposed to be done. My father taught me to be respectful in the field and it just seems natural. I look at hunting ethics more with big game or waterfowl. Very thought provoking. :)

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:56 pm

Don't shoot across the line. If you're group hunting, you've got to leave the ego behind. It's not like it's a quick draw contest or anything and you can bet the other guy sees the bird too.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:29 pm

Use enough gun.
Don't follow up a flushed ruffed grouse more than once.
Do not hunt the late February season for ruffed grouse.
Do not take long shots hoping for a golden BB.
Work to recover the inevitable cripple.
Don't shoot a bird on the ground or in a tree.
If hunters are already in a field you planned to hunt...go somewhere else.
Respect the food value of the bird and the land you hunt upon.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Redfishkilla » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:46 pm

Shooting wild quail on the ground should be punishable by hanging......jmo.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by nikegundog » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:47 pm

I was taught that ethics and the law don't always follow hand in hand. I was always taught to never shoot a duck on the water (I don't mind others doing it), and in those rare occasions when a hen wound up dead, either from a dog or other means that it almost always ended up on someones table. During late season never hunt a birds roosting site late in the day.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by topher40 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:02 pm

Dont hunt coveys late in the day, dont shoot birds out of a small covey. Limit your chasing or taking of birds out of even a large covey especially in in climate weather. If you can tell the difference at flush only shoot the male quail (some of us can tell when they Flush believe it or not) and dont train dogs in the spring during nesting season. Only shoot at a bird when you have a clear shot and BELIEVE you can get a clean kill, try not to wound.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Gertie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:16 pm

I love this topic. Thank you for posting it deke. I agree with everything mentioned here, especially comments regarding respecting nesting seasons, not pushing birds more than once or twice, especially in inclement weather, locating cripples and only taking birds you intend to eat. These things need to happen to keep bird populations stable and to encourage public support for our sport. I would also add that honoring private property and cleaning up after yourself on both public and private lands are very important.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:19 pm

deke,
My ethical Grouse hunting values come form our family traditions and belief in God, respecting his wilderness and wild creatures. Its a lot more to my family than just ethics, this in fact is the traditional Pa upland shooting life, that GBE tried to put into words. GBE did a pretty good job with putting it into words and became famous for it. However he did make a few things up along the way, his thoughts on late season Grouse hunting as an example, were not actually an accepted belief, especially in that era. GBE sometimes put his wishes into print, and led a lot of readers down a path he wanted to walk, at that time of his life. Over all however GBE did a great job of describing our Pa mountain family, traditional upland shooting life style. Most people have no idea that GBE was actually raised in a small town in South West Pa, where his father owned a Taylor shop. GBE grew up and learned the Pa Upland Shooting life from his father who purchased and hunted George Rymans Grouse dogs. He later went on to own his own Ryman dogs, from which he started his Old Hemlock line. The traditions on which GBE wrote are as old as the Pa mountains themselves. They are not just ethics to us, they are a way of life, handed down thru many generations. Pa is famous for this kind of life style, with its God fearing Gun toting ethical and honest mountain people. An example of these type of men, Jimmy Stewart, Elliot Ness, Sam Light, George Ryman and many many others. The Upland Shooting Life still goes on in the Pa mountains even today, especially in Potter County, where my family has lived sense before this was a country.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by rinker » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:33 pm

If you can tell the difference at flush only shoot the male quail (some of us can tell when they Flush believe it or not)
My understanding is that quail are monogamous. So, if you have a covey that has twice as many hens as roosters, those extra hens will not reproduce. Maybe someone that knows more than me can confirm this or tell me that I'm wrong.

Pheasants are not monogamous, I think that I read some where that it takes one rooster for every seventeen hens for all of the hens to nest.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:05 pm

DogNewbie wrote:Don't shoot across the line. If you're group hunting, you've got to leave the ego behind. It's not like it's a quick draw contest or anything and you can bet the other guy sees the bird too.
ROFLMBO - too funny - picturing quick draw McGraw.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:07 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Use enough gun.
Don't follow up a flushed ruffed grouse more than once.
Do not hunt the late February season for ruffed grouse.
Do not take long shots hoping for a golden BB.
Work to recover the inevitable cripple.
Don't shoot a bird on the ground or in a tree.
If hunters are already in a field you planned to hunt...go somewhere else.
Respect the food value of the bird and the land you hunt upon.

Excellent post.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Johng918 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:14 pm

It's funny how you read about how Ethical people are hunting but when your in the field you rarely see it.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DonF » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:15 pm

A very frustrating subject for me. I have found on other site's that anything that is legal, is ethical. I do not agree with that one bit. Lot of good things on here. I never handle someone else'a dog. I don't walk with other hunters with a loaded gun, I break it open and leave the shells in the chamber. If I still hunted with pump's or auto's, I'd keep the action open with two shells in the maqgazine. I don't go into a field someone else is in. I don't leave fired hulls on the ground. I get tired of seeing that, especially after dove season. Large piles of fired hulls everywhere!
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by gspguy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:11 pm

My only real rule is to not shoot at a bird that is more than 40 yds out. Most people have no business shooting beyond that range as they aren't good enough to consistently and reliably kill birds beyond that range... ahem... that includes me :oops: .

I absolutely can't stand hunting in groups so the line thing I don't care about. I prefer to hunt alone or with 1 partner.
Last edited by gspguy on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by deke » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:12 pm

great responses guys and gals. What brought this up was a long discussion with one of my hunting buddies who was brought into hunting the way i was. We were talking about one of our friends who was self taught, and never went with an adult who instilled rules in him. His first year bowhunting he took a shot around seventy five yards, I have passed up bucks at 60 yards and I have been doing this for a few years longer than him. It made us start to realize that not everyone is an ethical hunter, and some people are in it for the kill, not the hunt. Which then led us to bird hunting and what we thought was the correct way to go about it, and what the rules actually were. Everyone on here seems to be an ethical hunter and i would like to commend all of you, escpecially those of you who are teaching kids the same thing.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by fishvik » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:GBE did a pretty good job with putting it into words and became famous for it.
Dave, GBE was a relative of yours? I'm showing my ignorance, I know, but what relation to you? What do the initials GBE stand for and where can you find his writings? I teach Hunter Ed and I really work with the kids on ethics and GBE's writings might be helpful. Thanks, fishvik

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:37 pm

fishvik wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:GBE did a pretty good job with putting it into words and became famous for it.
Dave, GBE was a relative of yours? I'm showing my ignorance, I know, but what relation to you? What do the initials GBE stand for and where can you find his writings? I teach Hunter Ed and I really work with the kids on ethics and GBE's writings might be helpful. Thanks, fishvik
George Byrd Evans wrote many books and raised the Old Hemlock Setter line. Lived in W.Virginia most of his life. He wrote about Grouse Hunting primarily since that was the hunting they had their locally. I loved his work but saw nothing that set his ethics any different from a lot of us. And I think you will be hard pressed to seperate PA from the rest of the world too. Ethics do vary according to the individual and type of hunting they do to some extent but do not change that I have seen by location. People are people no matter where they live and hunt.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:47 pm

fishvik wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:GBE did a pretty good job with putting it into words and became famous for it.
Dave, GBE was a relative of yours? I'm showing my ignorance, I know, but what relation to you? What do the initials GBE stand for and where can you find his writings? I teach Hunter Ed and I really work with the kids on ethics and GBE's writings might be helpful. Thanks, fishvik
Before the torrential Potter BS begins. :roll:

George Bird Evans.
There is a biography, Life of a Shooting Gentleman by Catherine Harper.
The comment about GBE, "make a few things up along the way" is the height of irony, and inaccuracy, considering it was delivered by RGD....GBE was well ahead of the curve as regards thoughts on ruffed grouse in his section of the Appalachians.
As to ethics, GBE and Kay were able to live a life that they designed, not a common occurence then or now, ranging from their view on ethical hunting behavior and well beyond.
I can't quite see that either George or Kay had any lock on ethical behavior tho.
Many saw some elitism in GBE while others less informed saw past the surface to a pair of very unique individuals whose lives truely revolved around their setters, Old Hemlock and a Life together.
The website http://www.oldhemlock.org is available.

So, I'm not sure that the value of GBE's writing lies in the teaching of any personal ethics, tho that can be implied I reckon, but rather the value lies in the solid and rich description of an individual's time and place in upland appalachian birdhunting that is gone to never return.
Much can be learned from GBE even now....perhaps as important as his long study of "his" ruffed grouse was his ability to remain a gentleman in the face of idiots.
I, personally, have a lot I can learn from GBE re idiots.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:51 pm

...GEEZ
Thanks Mountaineer....I really feel low now. :D

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:52 pm

DonF wrote:A very frustrating subject for me. I have found on other site's that anything that is legal, is ethical. I do not agree with that one bit. Lot of good things on here. I never handle someone else'a dog. I don't walk with other hunters with a loaded gun, I break it open and leave the shells in the chamber. If I still hunted with pump's or auto's, I'd keep the action open with two shells in the maqgazine. I don't go into a field someone else is in. I don't leave fired hulls on the ground. I get tired of seeing that, especially after dove season. Large piles of fired hulls everywhere!

That is so true about people in general. Some never get past the "if it's legal do it" level.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:55 pm

Chukar12 wrote:...GEEZ
Thanks Mountaineer....I really feel low now. :D

Ostracized from live chat and now brow beaten into self improvement when I just want to lie about dogs

Not sure what you mean, C. :?:
I answered a question and made note of a lie told as regards GBE.

You, or anyone, finds whatever path forward that works for you....no one has a lock on any way or on any rationalization of personal ethics....if you think I believe differently, you are very mistaken.
Lie away...most of us speak highly of our dogs.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:00 pm

I was just fooling around...

Giving you credit for bringing out that there is something to be learned from a life lived well for all of us, and more or less admitting that I spend too little time pondering those lessons...

I liked your post

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by dreamerofdreams » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:01 pm

deke wrote:great responses guys and gals. What brought this up was a long discussion with one of my hunting buddies who was brought into hunting the way i was. We were talking about one of our friends who was self taught, and never went with an adult who instilled rules in him. His first year bowhunting he took a shot around seventy five yards, I have passed up bucks at 60 yards and I have been doing this for a few years longer than him. It made us start to realize that not everyone is an ethical hunter, and some people are in it for the kill, not the hunt. Which then led us to bird hunting and what we thought was the correct way to go about it, and what the rules actually were. Everyone on here seems to be an ethical hunter and i would like to commend all of you, escpecially those of you who are teaching kids the same thing.
Just wondering, was that a failure of his personal ethics or his knowledge about hunting? I'm in a similar situation - never raised as a hunter, getting into as an adult without much, if any, guidance outside of the game regs. Every so often I run across something that never would have occurred to me as being wrong or bad, simply because I wasn't brought up in the culture. Forums like this have been very helpful to me, but I still don't feel that I understand some of these things in the way that others do.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:04 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I was just fooling around...

Giving you credit for bringing out that there is something to be learned from a life lived well for all of us, and more or less admitting that I spend too little time pondering those lessons...

I liked your post

regards,

joe
I'm sorry..I am a bit slow on the uptake at times. :oops:

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by deke » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:34 pm

I believe it is his hunting ethics. I have known him for 6 years and actually own one of his dogs he bred. He would do anything for you, and if asked would give you the shirt off his back. But when it comes to hunting he has no common sense. Ie shooting over dogs ONCE trying to control other peoples dogs, taking to long of shots, safety off, simple things that can be avoided once you bring them to his attention. On one occasion he shot a bird on the ground infront of my year old lab, he said he had a clear shot so why not take it. I explained to him in very few words that if he ever did taht kind of stuff again he would not be welcome to hunt with us. I think alot of the problem is that he was raised in a family with nobody hunting, and what i think of as common sense, he never had to think of it taht way.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:46 pm

You know I have always put George Byrd Evans in the same basket as Aldo Leopold. Different objectives but handle very much alike. Both great men of their times. Would be wonderful to see more of that today as well as tomorrow. There have been some wonderful teachers that have passed what they learned to us and now it is our turn to pass it on to our younger companions in the field.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:48 pm

Just wondering, was that a failure of his personal ethics or his knowledge about hunting? I'm in a similar situation - never raised as a hunter, getting into as an adult without much, if any, guidance outside of the game regs. Every so often I run across something that never would have occurred to me as being wrong or bad, simply because I wasn't brought up in the culture. Forums like this have been very helpful to me, but I still don't feel that I understand some of these things in the way that others do.
I personally think that is quite astute...you clearly have a better thought process about it than most...well done
Many adults, especially men, have an ego block whenever someone tries to educate us on, or heaven forbid correct us for a transgression, on something we desperately want to be in the know about. It happens to me occasionally in a trial, I will do something and have the error pointed out to me...if I am not careful, the hurt feeling sticks with me rather than the lesson. I am less than forgiving around live ammo, and having spent some time guiding I can assure you that many grown men of means that lack the background with firearms tend to be of the "calculated risk" type. IMO it cannot be allowed with live firearms around humans or dogs. During the hunt, something often ends up dead, there is no level of manners that should supercede making sure its something that we intend to kill, and to kill it cleanly.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by northern cajun » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:54 pm

its all relative.

I remember my hearing in my youth wait tell they land we can't waste shells we don't have enough money. i.e. let them hit the water and then shoot.

I don't feel bad about that at all, it was a cultural thing when hunting really was to put food on the table and if you shot at them before they landed you don't get to go on next hunt period. Now that may seem unethical to some but it seemed morally wrong to the older gentlemen to not put meat on the table to feed there families.

And the other thing I remember is when creeping geese use to be illegal and lots of people got fined, put in jail or both and now you can freaking use electronic callers shoot ungodly daily limits under the term "conservation hunts".

The times they are a changing.

An interesting perceptive on hunting ethics
http://www.huntfairchase.com/docs/7aa88a58.pdf or Beyond Fair Chase by Jim Posewitz
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by buckshot0074 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:Shooting wild quail on the ground should be punishable by hanging......jmo.
the first thing I tell guys that hunt with me (if its the first time) "do NOT any under circumstance shoot a bird on the ground !"

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by northern cajun » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:27 pm

buckshot0074 wrote:
Redfishkilla wrote:Shooting wild quail on the ground should be punishable by hanging......jmo.
the first thing I tell guys that hunt with me (if its the first time) "do NOT any under circumstance shoot a bird on the ground !"

Man then how do you shoot those spring turkeys :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Georgia Boy » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:08 pm

To me it is about ethical recovery of all shot or wounded game, which requires a well trained dog and some persistence. I have found most people dont have the dog required and or dont put forth the effort required to do so.
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by mobeasto123 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Since I'm new to gun dogs and hunting with it ( 2 seasons) now I have to admit that sometimes my friend and also My own father laugh at me and simply treat me like a fool when I told them that we have to Shoot only pointed birds and have to shoot it on the wing for the ethic of the sport.. I'm at it for 2 season now and really found a new sport.. Here I don't know a lot of people that shoot a flying grouse, Everybody I know shoot it in the head with .22cal or an old full choke .410. I'm guilty of having done it that way since I was young but now I'm 30 and hunting with my dog and don't shoot on the ground anymore only in the air, now that's the real thing.. I can tell you that my father simply refuse to come to hunt with me cause he just don't understand the thing, For him hunting is to put some meat in the fridge not to spend an afternoon flushing 4-5 birds and maybe shot at 2-3 and bag maybe 1 or 2 maybe 0 .. Let me tell you that I don't have a lot of friend that understand that too. I don't care I prefer to hunt alone anyway.. I'm sorry for my past but I have a lot of years in front of me to bet back to the right track. In fact I've read The Upland Shooting life and also the Grouse hunter's guide and I totally agree about the fact that If we could take a bird the same way we take a trout in a lake and put it back for the future I would do it.

Apart the fact that we were shooting on the ground. we had and and still have a lot of ethic around hunting
we put a lot of emphasis around gun and security.
Always keep an eye on each other to avoid shooting on our partner( love blaze orange for that)
We don't hunt where there are already other hunters
We don't hunt around Big game spot ( in big game season)
Always keep the used shell for us and not for the woods
Respect of hunting hours.
Enjoy the woods as it wood be your last time in it.

Thanks
David & ''Hunter ''

Why put off until tomorrow a thing that we could do next week , next month or next year !!!

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:52 pm

mobeasto123 wrote:Since I'm new to gun dogs and hunting with it ( 2 seasons) now I have to admit that sometimes my friend and also My own father laugh at me and simply treat me like a fool when I told them that we have to Shoot only pointed birds and have to shoot it on the wing for the ethic of the sport.. I'm at it for 2 season now and really found a new sport.. Here I don't know a lot of people that shoot a flying grouse, Everybody I know shoot it in the head with .22cal or an old full choke .410. I'm guilty of having done it that way since I was young but now I'm 30 and hunting with my dog and don't shoot on the ground anymore only in the air, now that's the real thing.. I can tell you that my father simply refuse to come to hunt with me cause he just don't understand the thing, For him hunting is to put some meat in the fridge not to spend an afternoon flushing 4-5 birds and maybe shot at 2-3 and bag maybe 1 or 2 maybe 0 .. Let me tell you that I don't have a lot of friend that understand that too. I don't care I prefer to hunt alone anyway.. I'm sorry for my past but I have a lot of years in front of me to bet back to the right track. In fact I've read The Upland Shooting life and also the Grouse hunter's guide and I totally agree about the fact that If we could take a bird the same way we take a trout in a lake and put it back for the future I would do it.

Apart the fact that we were shooting on the ground. we had and and still have a lot of ethic around hunting
we put a lot of emphasis around gun and security.
Always keep an eye on each other to avoid shooting on our partner( love blaze orange for that)
We don't hunt where there are already other hunters
We don't hunt around Big game spot ( in big game season)
Always keep the used shell for us and not for the woods
Respect of hunting hours.
Enjoy the woods as it wood be your last time in it.

Thanks

I'm proud of you.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by fishvik » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:43 am

Thanks you all for the information on GBE. fishvik

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DogNewbie
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:17 am

Just for the sake of conversation, how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird. Yes more birds get away unharmed when flushed but more birds are also wasted by bad shooting. Just playing devils advocate.

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Gordon Guy
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:05 am

Here are a couple other personal ethical rules that I follow that haven't been previously mentioned:
1) When I'm driving to a hunting spot and birds cross the road in front of me I don't consider stopping and going for it, because that's not "Hunting". To me it's like taking advantage, there's no skill in that. For me It's purely the act of obtaining of food.
2) I consider crippled birds not retreived as a part of my bag limit.
3) Generally, shoot only one bird on a covey rise, and retreive that bird before looking for another. I loose to many birds/cripples when I take my eye's off the spot of where the bird fell.
Tom

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nikegundog
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by nikegundog » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:08 am

DogNewbie wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird. Yes more birds get away unharmed when flushed but more birds are also wasted by bad shooting. Just playing devils advocate.
Its called fair chase, opinions on it very greatly, basically if the hunting method is almost guaranteed some are taught that its not a fair chase.

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Redfishkilla
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by Redfishkilla » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:46 am

" how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird."

Think of it as the difference between using a fly rod to catch fish versus a stick of dynamite. One is sporty and fun (the point of the endeavor) the other is not. If you are out hunting wild quail for strictly food, you'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by nldd » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:25 am

quote]
the first thing I tell guys that hunt with me (if its the first time) "do NOT any under circumstance shoot a bird on the ground !"[/quote]
this is first one for me also,,,,but a very close second for me would have to be ,if you pack it in pack it out, im sick of looking at garbage left behind by hunters\ fishers :twisted:

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DogNewbie
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:55 am

nikegundog wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird. Yes more birds get away unharmed when flushed but more birds are also wasted by bad shooting. Just playing devils advocate.
Its called fair chase, opinions on it very greatly, basically if the hunting method is almost guaranteed some are taught that its not a fair chase.
I would define hunting ethics as making the process as painless, and quick as possible for the bird, and if you shoot it you'd better find it and eat it. I would define sportsmanship as giving the bird what little fighting chance it can to get away. I would argue that ethical hunting and sportsman like hunting don't always go hand in hand. Personally, I prefer to hunt in a sportsman like way as ethically as possible by not taking long shots on flushed birds, but I don't think someone taking a bird on the ground is any less ethical. They're just not as sporting.

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DogNewbie
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:05 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:" how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird."

Think of it as the difference between using a fly rod to catch fish versus a stick of dynamite. One is sporty and fun (the point of the endeavor) the other is not. If you are out hunting wild quail for strictly food, you'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.
I agree. One is more sporting and fun. However, if you knew you were going to catch and kill a fish and you wanted to do it in the most ethical way possible for the fish would you toss the dynamite and make it quick and painless or hook it on tiny gear and make it fight to exhaustion only to be pull out and either tossed on the back to suffocate or have its gills bled out. As an avid fly fisherman, I totally get the sportsman aspect, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend that I'm doing so in the most ethical way. Especially when fishing catch and release. The best way to sport fish if you want to keep the fish health and minimize the stress would be to use heavy gear, crank the fish in before its spent out, but fly fishing is pretty much the opposite of that. I love to fly fish and I love to hunt, but just because I'm doing it sportingly, doesn't always mean its the most ethical way to do it. That's my point.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:30 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
Redfishkilla wrote:" how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird."

Think of it as the difference between using a fly rod to catch fish versus a stick of dynamite. One is sporty and fun (the point of the endeavor) the other is not. If you are out hunting wild quail for strictly food, you'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.
I agree. One is more sporting and fun. However, if you knew you were going to catch and kill a fish and you wanted to do it in the most ethical way possible for the fish would you toss the dynamite and make it quick and painless or hook it on tiny gear and make it fight to exhaustion only to be pull out and either tossed on the back to suffocate or have its gills bled out. As an avid fly fisherman, I totally get the sportsman aspect, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend that I'm doing so in the most ethical way. Especially when fishing catch and release. The best way to sport fish if you want to keep the fish health and minimize the stress would be to use heavy gear, crank the fish in before its spent out, but fly fishing is pretty much the opposite of that. I love to fly fish and I love to hunt, but just because I'm doing it sportingly, doesn't always mean its the most ethical way to do it. That's my point.
I think you are confusing ethical with humane.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by nikegundog » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:46 pm

I tend to agree with Ezzy on that one.

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DogNewbie
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:
Redfishkilla wrote:" how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird."

Think of it as the difference between using a fly rod to catch fish versus a stick of dynamite. One is sporty and fun (the point of the endeavor) the other is not. If you are out hunting wild quail for strictly food, you'd be better off spending the money elsewhere.
I agree. One is more sporting and fun. However, if you knew you were going to catch and kill a fish and you wanted to do it in the most ethical way possible for the fish would you toss the dynamite and make it quick and painless or hook it on tiny gear and make it fight to exhaustion only to be pull out and either tossed on the back to suffocate or have its gills bled out. As an avid fly fisherman, I totally get the sportsman aspect, but I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend that I'm doing so in the most ethical way. Especially when fishing catch and release. The best way to sport fish if you want to keep the fish health and minimize the stress would be to use heavy gear, crank the fish in before its spent out, but fly fishing is pretty much the opposite of that. I love to fly fish and I love to hunt, but just because I'm doing it sportingly, doesn't always mean its the most ethical way to do it. That's my point.
I think you are confusing ethical with humane.

Ezzy
To kill ethically is to kill humanely. When animal rights comes up in ethics debates, humane treatment is always the topic. I consider them to be intertwined.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by nikegundog » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:53 pm

I'm sorry this talk was about hunting ethics, we have little in common with animal right advocates when it comes to ethics involving hunting. I am basing my conversation as amongst other hunters not to the animal rights crowd, to them all hunting is unethical.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by dreamerofdreams » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:11 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird. Yes more birds get away unharmed when flushed but more birds are also wasted by bad shooting. Just playing devils advocate.
Its called fair chase, opinions on it very greatly, basically if the hunting method is almost guaranteed some are taught that its not a fair chase.
I would define hunting ethics as making the process as painless, and quick as possible for the bird, and if you shoot it you'd better find it and eat it. I would define sportsmanship as giving the bird what little fighting chance it can to get away. I would argue that ethical hunting and sportsman like hunting don't always go hand in hand. Personally, I prefer to hunt in a sportsman like way as ethically as possible by not taking long shots on flushed birds, but I don't think someone taking a bird on the ground is any less ethical. They're just not as sporting.
This is one of the topics I've frequently found confusing. I think you did a good job explaining how I feel about it.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by SHORTFAT » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:12 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Use enough gun.
Don't follow up a flushed ruffed grouse more than once.
Do not hunt the late February season for ruffed grouse.
Do not take long shots hoping for a golden BB.
Work to recover the inevitable cripple.
Don't shoot a bird on the ground or in a tree.
If hunters are already in a field you planned to hunt...go somewhere else.
Respect the food value of the bird and the land you hunt upon.
Mountaineer, I'm asking out of a sincere ingnorance... so please no one take offense, but what is the reason for abstaining from the February season for Ruffed Grouse?.. I believe I may have recently sinned... :oops: Honestly tho, I would welcome your opinion on it... I agree completely with your other 7 points, so I'd like to understand the reason for it... 'course, it's probably so obvious I'll feel like a moron... but that's nothing new... :lol:
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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by jimbo&rooster » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:14 pm

DogNewbie wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how is it less ethical to shoot a bird on the ground which is an easier shot and an almost guaranteed kill vs. flushing the bird and making it more challenging for yourself (and I would argue more fun) but greatly increasing the chance of winging it and not finding the bird. Yes more birds get away unharmed when flushed but more birds are also wasted by bad shooting. Just playing devils advocate.
I for one am not starving. I chase birds because I enjoy doing it, not because the survival of my family depends on a limit of quail.

Aside from ethics, and argueably, I consider hunting birds over dogs to be a gentlemans sport enjoyed by gentleman. There is a rich tradition in what we do and aside from the ethics of the chase I feel like I have a responsibility to our sect or group to uphold those "unwritten laws". I wont shoot more than one bird from a covey of wild birds on a hunt, I dont hunt down singles for more than one more flush even if i dont intend to shoot. There are many more things to difficult to put on paper that you you just know you either should or should not do. These two things are just two of my biggest pet peaves.

I agree that shooting quail on the ground should be a hanging offense.

I grew up waterfowl hunting with a neighbor who was an old school waterfowler. He taught me a love for early morning sunrises and being in the marsh, when I went to college I went hunting ONCE with a couple of guys who had seen duck hunting on TV and decided to get into it.

This outdoor channel generation of hunters is making it real hard for the rest of us.

Jim
A limit on the strap is nice, but the kill has nothing to do with tradition.

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Re: Ethical hunting.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:32 pm

nikegundog wrote:I'm sorry this talk was about hunting ethics, we have little in common with animal right advocates when it comes to ethics involving hunting. I am basing my conversation as amongst other hunters not to the animal rights crowd, to them all hunting is unethical.
I'm talking about hunting ethics as well. That was just an example of how ethics and humane treatment are intertwined in my view. As a hunter I believe my personal sportsman like practices are best for me because it helps make it more than just killing the bird. I'm I hunting to put food on the table? No, I can do that without hunting. I'm hunting for the fun of the sport and the experience gained from the harvest of the bird. I'll teach my kids to hunt because there is a huge disconnect in our society between what we put in our bodies and where it came from. But, like I said, there is a part of the hunt, a large part, that is solely sporting. That's why I like to shoot flushed birds. Yes some get away unscathed but for every unscathed birds there's a winged bird died a slow death and never found its way to the dinner table. I just find it hard to say that the sporting way is more ethical than taking a bird on the ground that you know you have a very good chance to kill quickly and not waste the birds life.

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