dog collars

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:37 am

Here in Britain dogs are not required by law to wear a collar while out working. It is rare to see a dog being worked with a collar on here as the thought is that the collar could snag the dog up among cover and maybe strangle it. In about 50 years of working dogs I have yet to see a collar snag a dog up.
I have noticed since using this forum that many of the dogs in the pics wear as many as 3 collars of various types. Since I believe America must have at least as much heavy groundcover as Britain I wondered if anyone over on your side of the pond ever sees a dog snagged up by it's collar ?
I sent in this post because I recently posted in to a British forum a few pics of the vizsla pup I have in for training working while wearing the collar her owners want her to wear in case she gets lost. This was quickly picked up on and I received questions as to why I hunted her while wearing the collar.

The vizsla pup and the "offending" collar.

Bill T.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:44 am

My dogs wear their collars much tighter around the neck and I have seen LOTS of dogs worked in the thick brush, heavy fields, woods, etc and never once seen a collar hang up.

Not saying it never happens, just saying it is highly unlikely if they are worn properly.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:39 am

First thing I noticed is how loose it was.....

I wonder how much of a lashing you would get for an ecollar.

MTR · Post by **MTR** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:14 am

Mine always have a collar on while hunting - e-collar/tracker and maybe a 3rd standard collar with name/ID plate on it. If I am approaching an area that I need to heel the dog up due to safety (road etc), I want to be able to attach a leash or grab onto something, or pull him back into the boat, or off of a raccoon

I guess that it may be law to have the tags on a dog at all times, have never really though about that aspect of it, he's chipped and I keep the tags on the jaeger lead or on the traffic lead in my vest so I don't have to listen to them clanking around as the dog is running

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:58 am

I only run with a leather collar and it is fairly loose. The start with the e-collar but I get them out of it as soon as I can. I too have never had a dog get hung up on a collar. They wear their collar because I have a tag on them about who to call and offer's a reward in case they are lost.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:01 am

MTR has got it right. I hope no dogs in Britain ever get lost while hunting, but if they do, a collar with your name and contact information is the best hope of getting them back. Microchips are also mandatory, of course. Ask your hunting associates if they know or have heard of someone who's lost a dog,and how they felt when it happened. No collar, no chance of return..or at least much less. I'd never hunt a dog wthout a collar with contact information. No one should..imo.

Snags with a properly fitted (tight but not too tight) collar are most unlikely. Never saw one.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:55 am

One of my pet peeves here is too grab a dog by the collar and have it shake his head and all I have is a collar in my hand.
When I ask the owners why the collar is so loose, they say they want the collar to slip if the dog ever gets hung up. I am not shy to ask them if they have ever worked around machinery, and nothing loose is ever safer. If you want your dog to get hung up, a loose collar is only an invitation. Funny as those will be the same dogs that the owners will tell me they have obedience issues. So one of the first things I do with the the dog is put a good collar on the way it should fit and put the dog on a stake out and walk away. Those dogs will fight for 5 minutes before they give up, but when they do I can then teach the dog what Come means.
Running dogs for 35 years with collars and have yet too have one get hung up. If the dog doesn`t wear a collar what are you supposed to grab, the ears? Its my handle on the dog!

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:07 pm

Grabbing the ears works too

but usually save that for a come to Jesus talk

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:14 pm

I see people using those crappy little nylon collars so loose that you could stick a whole arm through it - and I just shake my head.

Any dog who comes to our place with one and stays in our care promptly is replaced with a proper colar like Vman is talking about.

MTR · Post by **MTR** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:14 pm

Funny that you mention the loose collar on dogs Vman - how many dogs have you seen at a training day that the e-collar isn't making any contact? When I have been in a group running/training dogs I always ask if I can handle the dog and tighten it up the way it should be (and high up towards the ears). I think the owners just assume that it's too tight and will choke the dog.

The other thing that I can think of for a collar is that many of the areas that I hunt (at least in the midwest) is all public land. The land is being hunted/used by many different individuals and activities. They maybe deer and bear hunting while I am grouse/woodcock hunting. The last thing I need is some idiot thinking my dog is running un-licensed or wild (feral) and take a shot at it or "mistake" it for some other game that they are hunting. That big orange collar (or 2) is about all I have as a last ditch warning to someone to not shoot at my dog. It's sad, but it happens.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:23 pm

ultracarry wrote:
I wonder how much of a lashing you would get for an ecollar.

One poor man left a e-collar on his brittany when it was photographed. He posted the pic into a British gundog forum and got plenty of "comments !"

I am one of the few British gundog trainers who admits to having an e - collar [they are now banned in Wales and probably will soon be banned in the rest of the U.K. too.] Other trainers have them but do not admit it. My prime reason for joining this forum was to learn the more intelligent uses of the e-collar. I could not learn this in Britain , it is a no-no subject and as far as I am aware no British book author or instructional film maker has ever included the use of the e-collar within the book or dog training film.
The general perception of the e-collar in the U.K. is that it is an instrument of torture used to fry dogs with for the pleasure of stupid, callous or sadistic dog owners. I have tried to explain several times on various U.K. fora that this simply isn't true. Few people have been persuaded by my thoughts on the subject ......... I must be a cruel man.......... but I am one that does not sink his boot into a dog or wallop it with a stick . These forms of "correction" are fairly common in Britain even though they are officially disapproved of.

I don't base a training programme around an e-collar and seldom use it but I do have one and I would use it for the right dog in the right circumstances. Just my personal way of doing things.

Sorry folks .... bit of a rant of mine that subject ! :roll:

Bill T.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:59 pm

So have we clarified your thinking for you, trekmoor?

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:28 pm

I have never had or seen a dog get hung up by a collar. I suppose it could happen. But getting lost is much more likely to happen.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:11 pm

Thanks for the replies folks. I'll leave her collar on. She did an entire shooting seasons worth of picking-up at big driven shoots just recently and all of those shoots have very thick groundcover. She didn't ever get snagged up.

It never occurs to me to grab a dog by it's collar for control purposes. Since none of my own dogs have ever had a collar on their necks I long ago got into the habit of getting hold of the dogs scruff. None of my dogs seem to mind what many dog trainers would consider to be a form of correction or punishment. A scruff hold to my dogs usually means I'm going to lift them over a barbed wire fence or lift them up from the river below should the bank be too high and vertical for the dog to climb out easily itself.

With two of my cockers I can even lift them back over a barbed wire fence while they keep hold of the pheasant in their mouths. A scruff hold isn't seen as punishment by my dogs but a jowl hold is.

Thanks again.
Bill T.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:37 pm

i wear bright 2 inch wide high visible collar on toby as hunters could shoot your dog for coyote or just saying it is wild.too many nuts in world today.

markj · Post by **markj** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:31 pm

I use a hunter orange collar has a brass tag rivited to it has my name and cell phone number. All my dogs have one, shouldbe loose enough for 2 fingers only. Otherwise it may come off or catch on something. No collars in England? Hmmm that is strange to me. Do they use a chain gang or tie stake? I do not use a e collar tho, the check cord and daily work like I always have done it seems to be OK for me. I got 6 shorthairs all will hunt longer than I can.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:56 am

ultracarry wrote:First thing I noticed is how loose it was.....

I wonder how much of a lashing you would get for an ecollar.

China has a reputation for lashings. But i think they would rather cook the dog.

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:56 am

China has a reputation for lashings. But i think they would rather cook the dog.

South Korea has em on the menus in the resturants there.....

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:54 pm

Come on folks. The real reason it never occurred to them that they could lose a doe is because they are surrounded by water. Where could the dog go?

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:07 pm

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:05 am

markj wrote:
China has a reputation for lashings. But i think they would rather cook the dog.
South Korea has em on the menus in the resturants there.....

I hear they farm them just for human consumption, i love to watch the bizzare foods Tv show with andrew zimmern on the travel channel.

BillGraves · Post by **BillGraves** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:01 am

gotpointers wrote:
markj wrote:
China has a reputation for lashings. But i think they would rather cook the dog.
South Korea has em on the menus in the resturants there.....
I hear they farm them just for human consumption, i love to watch the bizzare foods Tv show with andrew zimmern on the travel channel.

I lived in South Korea for a year a few years ago and you are correct, there are menus with dog on them and most are "farmed" for it as far as I know. Couldn't bring myself to have any, but the Koreans rave about it.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:24 am

Trekmoor wrote:I have noticed since using this forum that many of the dogs in the pics wear as many as 3 collars of various types. Bill T.

Guilty as charged

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:52 am

My dogs will wear as many as two collars depending on what we're doing. If out running on wild birds my setter will have her e-collar and Garmin Astro Collar. My lab normally just has her regular collar with her tags.

I've had my lab come back without her collar once when we were running on grouse. I don't know how she lost it, but it didn't seem to phase her.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:16 am

markj wrote: No collars in England? Hmmm that is strange to me. Do they use a chain gang or tie stake?

Sorry to be so late in replying to this question. My statement was correct. Gundogs in Britain are not required by law to wear a collar of any kind while working or being trained for work. In fact their use is very much frowned on by nearly every gundog trainer. Dogs , all dogs, are required to wear a collar with an identity disc attached if they are not working and are not gundogs. This law is only very rarely enforced .

I know of no trainer in Britain who uses a chain gang or a tie stake or a barrel either. Most gundog trainers here would just look at you blankly if you mentioned these things ..... even the very experienced ones. Somehow we seem to manage without them. I know of these things but have never tried any of these training aids, I am not at all sure of how they work.

I mentioned using a barrel when training pointers with a friend a few days ago. He thought I was joking and then burst out laughing at the mental picture of a dog trying to balance on a barrel.
It is very rare for me to even use a check-cord on any breed of gundog and if I do it is usually on the dog for just one quick training session. Other British trainers do ,however, make much more use of checkcords than I do. I don't think British gundog trainers in general are as gadget minded as you lads are.

Bill T.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:44 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
markj wrote: No collars in England? Hmmm that is strange to me. Do they use a chain gang or tie stake?
Sorry to be so late in replying to this question. My statement was correct. Gundogs in Britain are not required by law to wear a collar of any kind while working or being trained for work. In fact their use is very much frowned on by nearly every gundog trainer. Dogs , all dogs, are required to wear a collar with an identity disc attached if they are not working and are not gundogs. This law is only very rarely enforced .

I know of no trainer in Britain who uses a chain gang or a tie stake or a barrel either. Most gundog trainers here would just look at you blankly if you mentioned these things ..... even the very experienced ones. Somehow we seem to manage without them. I know of these things but have never tried any of these training aids, I am not at all sure of how they work.

I mentioned using a barrel when training pointers with a friend a few days ago. He thought I was joking and then burst out laughing at the mental picture of a dog trying to balance on a barrel.
It is very rare for me to even use a check-cord on any breed of gundog and if I do it is usually on the dog for just one quick training session. Other British trainers do ,however, make much more use of checkcords than I do. I don't think British gundog trainers in general are as gadget minded as you lads are.

Bill T.

I was studying European match fishing and the non use of collars and leads reflects the same personna as the fishermen there. I remember they will not hold a fish standing up. They must be down on one knee not to injure a fish should it fall. We here in the USA will throw the same carp much coveted by the English up on the bank so we don't catch it again.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:30 pm

We here in the USA will throw the same carp much coveted by the English up on the bank so we don't catch it again

Um, not everyone, I eat them.... fried, smoked, grilled..... Place in town been serving carp for 50 years....

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:32 pm

Gentlemen,
I have never had a dog hung up or hurt because of our T&B collars, and I hunt some very thick Grouse cover here in the Pa mountains,
that being said I do have two Beeper speakers on my collars, that now need repairs, due to being damage in the Grouse woods.
RGD/Dave

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:41 pm

markj wrote:
We here in the USA will throw the same carp much coveted by the English up on the bank so we don't catch it again
Um, not everyone, I eat them.... fried, smoked, grilled..... Place in town been serving carp for 50 years....

Iowa is the exception, state law requires them to fish with a towel, pliers and a 5 gallon pail, and the state fish is the bull head. Smoke em or bury them, just like sky carp.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:34 am

Carp rarely breed successfully in British waters , especially Scottish waters and they are stocked into lakes and ponds. I think a carp of just 10 lbs. in weight would cost at least £50 (dunno what that is in dollars) to buy and put into a lake.... it might cost a lot more. Coarse fish anglers here operate a catch and carefully release policy. We even take very large and thickly padded "release mats" with us to ensure the fish does not have it's slime covering or scales damaged while on the bank.

I prefer barbel fishing to carp fishing . They do not grow to the same sizes but pound for pound they fight considerably harder . I like just about any kind of fishing . I'm a bit of a fishing nutcase and I'm also what we call a "tackle tart." I like to fish with the best gear I can afford.

Bill T.

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:02 am

Trekmoor wrote: I'm a bit of a fishing nutcase and I'm also what we call a "tackle tart." I like to fish with the best gear I can afford.

Bill T.

Bill, I'm an avid fisherman too. I was wondering if you have ever met an English gentleman, Charles Jardine. He has come to talk to and tie flies at our Trout Unlimited fly tying expo here in Idaho Falls a few times. Charles is very knowledgable and very funny. He has told us how exclusive trout and salmon fishing is in the British Isles. I was wondering is there any "catch and keep" type freshwater fishing in Scotland. Do you keep any fish to eat?

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:58 am

Iowa is the exception, state law requires them to fish with a towel, pliers and a 5 gallon pail, and the state fish is the bull head

Get the facts right, Iowa has no state fish and the place I spoke of is Joe Tess's in OMAHA Nebraska. Now minn has a lot of BULLHEADS. I dont fish in that state. Used to go to Canada my good friend owns a fish resort up there.

My friend has th erecord in ne for carp on a arrow.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:09 am

I have never met Charles Jardine but I have heard of him. Salmon fishing in Britain is pricey , some of it is very pricey (millionaire pricey) but I get occasional fishing invites from Estate owners and get on for free as a sort of "thank you" for working my dogs for them. I can also go sea trout fishing for free on a few rivers. The gamekeepers of the land the rivers run through are kind enough to phone me when the fish are running !

Brown trout fishing can often be had for free. My favourite dry fly river runs right through Edinburgh and it is free fishing for the whole of it's length which isn't very long ..... about 30 miles maybe ? It makes a change when trout fishing when discarded shopping trolleys are included among the hazards I can get snagged up on !

I'm one of those folk that likes fishing but doesn't like eating fish. If I keep salmon or trout I give them to friends or feed them to my dogs. Normally I release everything I catch . I always release coarse fish which are any freshwater species other than trout,sea trout and salmon. If carp were here in pest numbers and were thought of as vermin then I'd happily bow-hunt for them ...... but bow- hunting is banned by law in Britain...... :roll: I haven't bow -hunted since I was a teenager back at the dawn of the dinosaurs . It was banned even then ....but ignorance was bliss !

Bill T.

Waterdogs1 · Post by **Waterdogs1** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:21 am

I have collars on my dogs one reason is to stake them out or put them on a chain gang. I get dog in that have all kinds of goofy collars and I take them of and put my collar on with my information on them. I use an E-collar every day one of the best tools on the world if in trained hands. My dogs are all micro chipped as well. I guess when my shorthair pup get older I am going to have to get a Garmin Astro as well. I am sure I will be posting about what I need soon enough. I know coon hunting you have to have collar to locate your dogs and bear and cat hunting the same. I am not up to date on tha stuff.

dakotashooter2 · Post by **dakotashooter2** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:08 pm

Britian has always been rich in tradition. That being so I can see that trainers there would be hard to come to more modern training techniques. There is nothing wrong with using traditional techniques if you have the time and patience to use them. I think over here time may be more of an issue and we take advantage of modern training techniques to make the best of that time. I'll asume and maybe I'm wrong that most British dogs are not trained by the owners but by trainers. Here in the US most dogs are trained by the owners hence the dependency on "gadgets".

I have never had a dog hang up in a collar. Even if they did in most cases they will work themselves free or the owner is close enough to get them free. It might be more of an issue with a lost or wide ranging dog but even then the chances are slim. I have seen hanging tags get hung up in kennels but they usually tear free with a little struggling. I quit using the hanging tags and use the ones that are riveted flat on the collar.

I did start using an E collar with my last dog. They are easy to missuse by those that think they are a quick fix. Mine has a tone and I found I often was able to acomplish as much with the tone as with stimulation.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:32 pm

Hi Dakota, most British gundogs are trained by their owners but this is often done under the eye of a pro trainer or successful non pro trainer. Not many folk in Britain can afford to send their dogs off for residential training. Maybe they are wise not to ! One character operating in Scotland has now been to me and to 2 other trainers I know of asking for help with gundog problems. We all thought it was his own dog or dogs he needed help with but later on we found out differently . This man had set himself up as a pro-trainer of every gundog breed and what he was doing was getting us to sort out his clients problem dogs and then handing the dogs back over to his client at a considerable profit !

I was conned even worse than the other two trainers he'd been to. I fell for his "poor average working Joe" line , felt sorry for him and sorted out his non- retrieving dog for free during a 1-2-1 session out in a field. :roll: ....... I was "had!" He must have made a nice profit out of me. It seems there is no way of protecting the average shooting man from dealing with that kind of "rogue trader." Joe Public nowadays seems to choose whoevers got the fanciest looking website to train their dogs.

A bit of a sore point with me !

Bill T.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:04 pm

Bill, you make a good point about the fancy looking web sites, and a lot of unknowing people fall for it. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a fancy web site and I like looking through a nice web site but there is a lot more to it than that and people need to do some research instead of saying "wow this looks great". There is a kennel and "so called trainer" not too far from me that has one of the most elaborate web sites I have ever seen, but I would never ever do business with this guy.

Charlie

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:49 am

I know of 2 or 3 so called gundog pros who couldn't train a parrot to sit on a perch. Two of them have rather nice websites. The other one tells his clients that all gundog foods should be softened into a mush with boiling water before feeding to a dog . The reason why ??? ...... To prevent hard mouth ! :roll: The state of his own dogs teeth and gums is terrible.

Bill T.

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:00 am

Most collars that people use have the O-ring. When the collar gets caugth on anything they "flip" over and don't get hung up. I've never had a dog get hung up by the collar.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:37 am

46 yrs i never used e--collar.not saying it is not great, i know nothing about them.
i use bell and wide collar as i am always afraid of hunter mistaking toby for coyote or whatever.

if i do get one,it will be one that has hawk call when on point etc.i have never lost dog with just collar on.
only dogs i had not comeback looking for me were BEAGLES.

i do LIKE collars that beep on point or you can locate your dog if you want.
i am getting one of those .but a E-COLLAR AND USING IT, i dont think so as i am just from old school type of dog hunter and hard to change.
but it could keep your dog from chasing deer.