"Repeat breeding" improves odds?

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AzDoggin
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"Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:19 pm

There are so many unknowns in getting an 8 week old pup. Of course you want a pedigree with ancestors whose traits you desire several generations back, but if the breeding will be a first, even between two highly qualified dogs, there are always chances that the offspring will not turn out as planned. Breeders working to improve the breed routinely discontinue certain pairings even though the pedigree would have predicted excellent offspring - sometimes the pairing just doesn't work out.

If you have the ability to do so, wouldn't choosing a pup from a "repeat breeding" increase your chances of getting a quality pup if the prior breeding produced a large proportion of good pups?

I'm talking "odds" here. Of course there are always superb pups produced in initial pairings.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by Wildweeds » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:57 pm

I know a fella that's been into it 40 years now,had done the"repeat" breeding many times and has told me....................... it's the same crapshoot,never got any pups from repeaters that were better than the first litter.................meaning the first litters were always better pups than the following breedings

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by highcotton » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:59 pm

You are exactly right...you will up your odds considerably from a repeat breeding. It's still no sure thing but it does up your odds.

I have done reperats and gotton same and even better quality pups several times.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by highcotton » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:10 pm

gpblitz wrote:IMO your chances are better on a line breeding repeat since you have a tightened gene pool vs a repeating breeding on a outcross.
I agree. I think that is why I have had success with repeat breedings. I seldom do a drastic outcross.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by SD Pheasant Slayer » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:15 am

I'm curious as to whether I'm following you guys correctly. You're suggesting that if you breed the same two dogs multiple times, the pups will be better in the subsequent litters than they were in the first breeding? Did I understand that right?

If that is what your saying, I don't think it's accurate. The quality of any pup is a direct effect of the combination of genes carried by the parents that they happen to inherit (plus a handful of environmental factors). The likelihood of inheriting a good/bad allele for any trait is fixed. The "odds" of a dam or sire passing a certain trait on doesn't change from one breeding to the next, thus the odds of a pup inheriting a favorable set of alleles doesn't change. A repeat breeding is just as likely to produce inferior pups as it is superior - it's entirely random.

Choosing a pup from a repeat breeding might be to one's advantage, but only in that the dogs from the first litter can give you a pretty decent idea of what you're getting. However, if you somehow manage to quantify and average the "quality" of the pups from the first litter, you're just as likely to get a dog below that average as you are above.
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by TraditionsGSPs2010 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:33 am

I am not sure what the right answer is but it reminded me of a conversation I had with a good friend and great dog guy. He asked, why would you repeat a breeding? If your goal is to strengthen the breed, then the offspring of your pairing either accomplished that task or failed. If they failed, then obviously you do not repeat. If they improved the breed (and lets not argue whose definition of improve we should use), why wouldn't you start looking for the next step forward? I guess the questions need to be asked: why is the breeder repeating the breeding, what your intentions are with the dog and to what philosophy do you subsribe?

I personally believe that if a breeding produced super dogs and that breeding is repeated, the same results should follow. Just remember the Good Lord has a sense of humor! :D
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:42 pm

SD Pheasant Slayer wrote:...dogs from the first litter can give you a pretty decent idea of what you're getting.
My thoughts too...good, bad and ugly. I'm with Blitz...line breeding to improve on a good trait

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:54 pm

SD Pheasant Slayer wrote:I'm curious as to whether I'm following you guys correctly. You're suggesting that if you breed the same two dogs multiple times, the pups will be better in the subsequent litters than they were in the first breeding? Did I understand that right?

If that is what your saying, I don't think it's accurate. The quality of any pup is a direct effect of the combination of genes carried by the parents that they happen to inherit (plus a handful of environmental factors). The likelihood of inheriting a good/bad allele for any trait is fixed. The "odds" of a dam or sire passing a certain trait on doesn't change from one breeding to the next, thus the odds of a pup inheriting a favorable set of alleles doesn't change. A repeat breeding is just as likely to produce inferior pups as it is superior - it's entirely random.

Choosing a pup from a repeat breeding might be to one's advantage, but only in that the dogs from the first litter can give you a pretty decent idea of what you're getting. However, if you somehow manage to quantify and average the "quality" of the pups from the first litter, you're just as likely to get a dog below that average as you are above.
I don't think anyone is saying that repeating a breeding creates better dogs in subsequent litters by the same parents. My question was "when you have knowledge of how one litter has turned out, can you take advantage of that knowledge by choosing a pup from a subsequent pairing of the same parents?"

I'm thinking that we are on the verge of combining two separate conversations - "repeat litters" (same parents - same generation - the pups are all full siblings) versus "line breeding" (different parents across time and generations chosen for their relationship to a "line"). I certainly can't speak to the latter - have no experience. For the former - seems like a good strategy to use in narrowing the field for a pup IMO.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:00 pm

All I have read id knowing how the first litter turned out provides a blue print of what the next litter will be. This is true but is more reliable with parents that are linebred and related than it would be with complete outcrosses.

The pups will not get better but you have a head start being able to see what the same breeding has produced.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by markj » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:03 pm

Not sure about the dogs, but the race horse folks, well some, belive a first foal will always be the best. Seattle Slew was a first foal. Never lost a race either. Bred similiarly as Secratariat as far as lines and such go. Back to Nasrullah by bold ruler etc...
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:25 pm

Many people used to believe that the second litter was so superior to the first that they never bothered to see how the first turned out. Much of the quality of subsequent litters is dependent on the mother's care during and after the first because her body has to support the puppies.
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by highcotton » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:41 pm

ezzy333 wrote:All I have read id knowing how the first litter turned out provides a blue print of what the next litter will be. This is true but is more reliable with parents that are linebred and related than it would be with complete outcrosses.

The pups will not get better but you have a head start being able to see what the same breeding has produced.

Ezzy
DITTO....

And to answer the question as to.... why we repeat instead of building the next generation? The more quality dogs you have to choose from the better. You can move on with those pups and repeat breedings of the original pair concurrently.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by Georgia Boy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:42 pm

gpblitz wrote:IMO your chances are better on a line breeding repeat since you have a tightened gene pool vs a repeating breeding on a outcross.
Exactly what I think too
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:04 pm

highcotton wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:All I have read id knowing how the first litter turned out provides a blue print of what the next litter will be. This is true but is more reliable with parents that are linebred and related than it would be with complete outcrosses.

The pups will not get better but you have a head start being able to see what the same breeding has produced.

Ezzy
DITTO....

And to answer the question as to.... why we repeat instead of building the next generation? The more quality dogs you have to choose from the better. You can move on with those pups and repeat breedings of the original pair concurrently.
Answers my question. Thanks folks. Gotta love this board!

To me, this is a huge advantage of going with a breeder who has some experience with dogs in the "line" they are breeding, as opposed to buying a pup from an individual who happens to have two multi-titled dogs but has never bred them previously. There may well be good pups out of the latter breeding, but you can't tell when they are 8 weeks of age.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:33 pm

markj wrote:Not sure about the dogs, but the race horse folks, well some, belive a first foal will always be the best. Seattle Slew was a first foal. Never lost a race either. Bred similiarly as Secratariat as far as lines and such go. Back to Nasrullah by bold ruler etc...
And Northern Dancer - first foal- Canada 's best horse for wins and $$
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:39 pm

Sharon wrote:
markj wrote:Not sure about the dogs, but the race horse folks, well some, belive a first foal will always be the best. Seattle Slew was a first foal. Never lost a race either. Bred similiarly as Secratariat as far as lines and such go. Back to Nasrullah by bold ruler etc...
And Northern Dancer - first foal- Canada 's best horse for wins and $$
They also thought breeding to cross bred or just plain mutt contaqminated the mare and she would never have purebred offspring again. On the other hand that may be what is wrong with all of us that were born 2nd,3rd,4th,5th and so on. I'm praying for Gods help to just make me average.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by BigShooter » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:53 pm

I'll agree with Ezzy & others but it's really a question of how conservative you want or need to be. If you could always duplicate success with subsequent litters, a number of folks would have several national champions in a row. If you've got the time and/or money then it's considerably easier to weed through a number of pups and experiment with various breedings to get what you want. Lots of folks can't afford to do that. It'd be a lot of work but it'd be interesting to go through the lists of national champs to find out how many were picked from a second breeding of the same pair, based upon the success of the first litter. I'm guessing you'd find more that were from a first pairing without a second mating of the same pair producing another national champ. Unfortunately not all dogs get the same training nor the same campaigning so true comparions are difficult.
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:24 pm

Good points, too, Mark. Probably also depends your intended use for the pup. You might not adopt such a conservative philosophy if you are in the hunt for a competitive trial dog - you might be willing to increase the risk/reward slope some to find that 'special' pup. Also a person willing to cull or rehome a pup that ends up being less than desired wouldn't need to be quite so conservative. For Joe Blo pup buyer (me), who will likely stick with whatever pup he decides on and make the best - I prefer to try to work the odds in my favor to the extent it's possible. I don't need a national champion - heck I probably woudn't know what to do with a dog of that caliber anyway. :D

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by BigShooter » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:30 pm

You'd do what most owners of good trial dogs do .... you'd hunt the heck out of it. 8)
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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by 3Britts » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:09 am

ezzy333 wrote:All I have read id knowing how the first litter turned out provides a blue print of what the next litter will be. This is true but is more reliable with parents that are linebred and related than it would be with complete outcrosses.

The pups will not get better but you have a head start being able to see what the same breeding has produced.

Ezzy
I have to go will ezzy here. With a repeat breeding you will have a good idea of the quality of the puppies.

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Re: "Repeat breeding" improves odds?

Post by markj » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:20 pm

And Northern Dancer - first foal- Canada 's best horse for wins and $$
Yeah, Dads stud hoss was out of Seattle Slew, Pug's Hart. then Dad bred it to one of his brood mares prudeced Live Wire, won a few races :) Dad retired age 52, I am that old now, shoulda listened to the old man.... He had a few won a bunch out of Pugs. I been t orace tracks all over the country, been to Keensland auctions. Saw a foal was 1 year old of Dads sell for 24 grand...... He knew his genetics well.
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