NASTRA Registration

Deets · Post by **Deets** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:10 pm

I went to a local preserve this morning to work my pointer on some chukar. They were hosting a NASTRA field trial, so I stopped by and watched for awhile. The trial format looked like fun, and I think my dog could compete with some of the dogs I watched. The problem is my pup did not come with registration papers. He is a pure breed english pointer, and a great bird dog but he did not have papers for whatever reason. Is there anyway I could compete in these trials without registration. I don't really care if I get NASTRA points or not. I just think it would be a fun to compete with my dog. I wonder if the trial officials would let me compete, but forfet any offical placement.

tnbirddogman · Post by **tnbirddogman** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:03 am

As far as actually competing the NSTRA requires that a dog be registered with a recognized registry (FDSB, AKC, etc). However there may be a local club around your area that has "fun" trials.

Grousewing · Post by **Grousewing** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:30 am

NSTRA does require that your dog be registered however sometimes it is possible with a little hard work to find the breeder of your dog and obtain registration papers. NSTRA is a very fun and addicting game.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:14 am

Fun Trials and AKC Hunt tests may be the way to go for you and your dog. I have the same problem with an EP I've got. She ran great yesterday in Kansas City for a 3rd in the Hunting Dog Challenge.

Maybe BHU allows unregistered dogs? Bird hunters United. They are a small-field situation and timed event. We had one close to me to raise money for Pheasants Forever Habitat Projects and Youth Hunting. It was pretty cool to watch. I don't think they require dog registration papers - but I sure don' t know that for certain.

If you want to run in Hunt Tests - then get a PAL/ILP from AKC. Ours just came for the pointer and we'll be looking into running her for a MH title in the future. There is a lot more you can do with a papered dog though - so if there is any way to get the papers, you'll need to look into that. For an AKC PAL/ILP registration, the dog needs to be spayed or neutered.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:57 am

I second the fun trial route or akc,

Think of it this way , you state you don't care about points but if they allowed unregistered dogs who's owners didnt care about points then those type folks would be taking a spot from someone who did care or someone who makes some income campaigning dogs for points and Ch titles. Competition just to get into Shoot to Retrieve trials here is stiff enough already without allowing unregistered dogs that couldn't earn points.

Make sense?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:39 am

As stated to compete in NSTRA your dog only has to be AKC FDSB or CKC registered it doesn't have to be NSTRA registered.
NSTRA doesn't accept ILP PAL and though it is not printed it will not accept "Q" registered dogs either
and if your dog does win and it is not registered according to what NSTRA rules are if the trial is barely a 3 point trial your dog places and then is found to be not "registrable" to NSTRA this could cost the points and that will upset those who have traveled and put up their money time and expenses as it takes 24 dogs to be a three point trial ...So if one of those dogs was not qualified to run it turns it into a 23 dog stake which drops it from a 3pt trial to a 2point trial..yes you will have a bunch of very upset members.

There are plenty of events where unregistered dogs and ILP PAL "Q" registered dogs are welcomed.

I know it is frustrating but despite what some people think NSTRA is for proving dogs in another format which appeals to a group of people just like American Field does and AKC does in their field trials but are more open in hunt tests since hunt test are a pass or fail not about beating all other dogs in the field

then as already stated some times you can try to find who bred the litter and maybe get the litter registration from them if the dog had never been registered but generally when one gets an unpapered animal that are the risks you take if you ever elect to get hooked into having fun at extra activities

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:11 am

"How It All Began
The National Shoot-to-Retrieve Field Trial Association's field trials were started by a group of dedicated bird hunters who were looking for a way to extend the fun they enjoyed with their bird dogs after their season ended. Field Trials, under hunting conditions, were the answer. They not only extend the season, they also provide a sportsmanlike environment where they can compete with others who enjoy bird dogs. The Association was incorporated in 1978, and is a non-profit association with service to the members and sportsmanship as its goal."

From the NSTRA site. I guess they should change the end of the third sentence to read, "...can compete with others who have a pedigreed dog and who enjoy bird dogs."

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:22 am

Redfishkilla wrote:"How It All Began
The National Shoot-to-Retrieve Field Trial Association's field trials were started by a group of dedicated bird hunters who were looking for a way to extend the fun they enjoyed with their bird dogs after their season ended. Field Trials, under hunting conditions, were the answer. They not only extend the season, they also provide a sportsmanlike environment where they can compete with others who enjoy bird dogs. The Association was incorporated in 1978, and is a non-profit association with service to the members and sportsmanship as its goal."

From the NSTRA site. I guess they should change the end of the third sentence to read, "...can compete with others who have a pedigreed dog and who enjoy bird dogs."

For your added information when NSTRA also began they also PAID American Field Sanctioning fees so that these trials were recognized and in order for these to be trials there are rules and guidelines to be followed thus having recognized Registered dogs to be recognized field trials..Sorry if people get hurt feelings because "They elected to get an unpapered dog" and find that their unpapered dog is not welcomed to be run in a format where the Club wanted Purebred Registered dog run in...There is freedom of choice I choose to have Registered animals and run them in venues where I run my registered animals against other registered animals...I also have Freedom of choice to find those venues where they do not care if the dog is registered or not...I do not however appreciate having MY freedom of choice taken away from me because a select few think that those clubs that chose guidelines to run their venues by should toss everything they have built up over the years out the window and lower their standards to accommodate the few when there are other venues to accommodate those unpapered animals...I have looked at this from both sides of the fence and I agree with the Clubs to Stick to their standards.

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:26 am

As someone that owns and hunts rescue dogs I understand some of the frustration out there about certian venues being closed to trialing unregistered dogs. That being said I did a google search and found several groups that allow unregistered dogs to run and compete. Now from what I have seen from the few trials my dogs have attended most of the groups would welcome more memebership. I am sure if someone asked the people on this forum if they knew of trials in any given area that allowed unregistered dogs they would probley find several throughout the course of the year. Seems lots less frustrating then tring to change any one groups rules.

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:40 am

"I do not however appreciate having MY freedom of choice taken away from me because a select few think that those clubs that chose guidelines to run their venues by should toss everything they have built up over the years out the window and lower their standards to accommodate the few when there are other venues to accommodate those unpapered animals"

How is your "freedom of choice" taken away again? I don't recall reading where someone stated "should toss everything they have built up over the years out the window". How would allowing an unregistered dog be tossing everything out the window? Would it make your titles “worth” less? If so, how? You're only concerned about yourself. We are such a me, me, me, society nowadays.

I'm just bored today. I'm not responding or commenting on this one after this.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:19 pm

I just wish there were more venues to run an unregistered dog in.

I choose to foster which really equates to cleaning up breeder's messes. The ones who don't care where the pups go (many, many, many of whom are purebred and could be registered) and don't follow up to see they are in a forever home. I also chose to buy two papered dogs so that I could compete in other venues. However, my current shelter EP could be competitive in field trials and it would be a good way to suck me into the program. I believe in good breeders - but I also think there MUST be people out there willing to help clean up breeder messes when those pups or adults end up in shelters. Folks willing to take in a "cull" or not even that, but a nice pup that went to the wrong home are to be rewarded in my opinion. There ought to be more venues out there where they could compete with their dogs.

The top 3 placements in the QF Hunting Dog Challenge in Kansas City this weekend went to "recycled" dogs. A GWP, a GSP and an EP. The other "registered" dogs placed 4th through 16th. There is not a doubt in anyone's mind that these 3 dogs are purebred - but they don't have the papers to prove it. So the owners just have to look a bit harder to find events like this where they can enjoy their dog (which oftentimes they paid more for than if they'd bought a pup from a breeder - so it's not that they're trying to get a "great deal").

Just keep looking for those places you can run your dog - you'll find something you end up getting hooked on.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:30 pm

RoostersMom wrote: There ought to be more venues out there where they could compete with their dogs.

You and/or any other unregistered dog owners can organize any trials you wish.....just a matter of putting in the leg work.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:02 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
RoostersMom wrote: There ought to be more venues out there where they could compete with their dogs.

You and/or any other unregistered dog owners can organize any trials you wish.....just a matter of putting in the leg work.

BINGO

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:How would allowing an unregistered dog be tossing everything out the window?

It appears that the dog in question is full blooded without registration papers. If un-registered dogs were allowed to compete that would not be the case. There would be mix breed muts running and most likely giving up placements and IMO yes, it would deminish titles. It's about maintaining a certain quality of trials and selective breeding. Lord knows there is enough pure bred dogs that aren't very competitive. It may sound snobby but I beleive it's best for the long run and I whole-heartedly agree with knine.

If a person wants to get into field trialing they should start by getting a pure bred registered pup or dog that is bred for there venue of interest. I don't see how anybody would dis-agree that that would better thier odds of being competitive. That being said, if getting a pure bred registered dog is out of the question, enjoy competing in the fun trials that are held fairly often.

Good luck and hopefully the OP will be able to find a way to get his dog papered correctly.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:47 pm

Ron R wrote:
Redfishkilla wrote:How would allowing an unregistered dog be tossing everything out the window?
It appears that the dog in question is full blooded without registration papers. If un-registered dogs were allowed to compete that would not be the case. There would be mix breed muts running and most likely giving up placements and IMO yes, it would deminish titles. It's about maintaining a certain quality of trials and selective breeding. Lord knows there is enough pure bred dogs that aren't very competitive. It may sound snobby but I beleive it's best for the long run and I whole-heartedly agree with knine.

If a person wants to get into field trialing they should start by getting a pure bred registered pup or dog that is bred for there venue of interest. I don't see how anybody would dis-agree that that would better thier odds of being competitive. That being said, if getting a pure bred registered dog is out of the question, enjoy competing in the fun trials that are held fairly often.

Good luck and hopefully the OP will be able to find a way to get his dog papered correctly.

Right on!

Charlie

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:56 pm

Funny thing is dogs don't care if they are registered or not. Only those people who choose to place more importance on a pedegree then the quality of the dog itself care. To the many responsible breeders and field trialers out there that place worth in a dog even if it doesn't make the cut to be a champion I thank you. Your efforts to find dogs that will never make the cut good homes and your encouragement of getting new people into the sport will not only enrich the future of field trialing but the lifes of those that you get into the sport. To others that feel any of us that choose to get an unregistered dog and dare to enter your world of field trials will harm the sport. Perhaps you need to take a close look at your attitude because surely it will do far more to dimisnish the meaning of a title then letting in an unregistered dog. I stated in an earlier post that I saw no need to change the rules of any of the groups cause there were many venues out there for both registered and unregistered dogs. In a world where hunting is a shrinking sport and where upland hunting is shrinking faster then some other types, feild trialing could find itself on the endangered list in the future unless people are encuraged to try it and made felt welcome when they do. So next time someone ask's about running a unregistered dog instead of going off about how it is going to hurt the meaning of a title. Instead try and help that person find a venue in their area that will let them and their dog compete. Sorry if I hurt some feeling with this post, but then maybe it was time someone did.

Papers? we don't need no stinken papers

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:15 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:
RoostersMom wrote: There ought to be more venues out there where they could compete with their dogs.

You and/or any other unregistered dog owners can organize any trials you wish.....just a matter of putting in the leg work.
BINGO

And I do. We just held one this weekend. We'll likely hold more, but doubt we'll limit them to "only dogs with no papers." I don't condone breeding mutts, nor do I support breeders that have mixed breed litters - I am only bemoaning the fact that purebred dogs who end up in shelters can't be used in the more common of venues.

Also trying to give the OP some options out there, since he seems to have a nice dog and wants to do more with his dog. He'd be welcome at any one of our QF fun trials or Hunting Dog Challenges. I'll be looking into BHU trials myself for a few of my dogs, even though my new puppy took a first in open puppy this weekend at a walking trial. I like the BHU guys - they're big into family and getting folks outdoors just to enjoy the dogs they own, whether they be papered or not. I urge the OP to look into this venue for his dog.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:41 pm

Instead try and help that person find a venue in their area that will let them and their dog compete. Sorry if I hurt some feeling with this post, but then maybe it was

That is exactly what people are doing. It sounds like you are the one with the attitude. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but maybe it was time somebody did. :roll:

Charlie

Deets · Post by **Deets** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:51 pm

On second thought...........Maybe I don't want to compete in NASTRA, even if I could get papers. If you guys get this upset over a simple question on an internet forum, then I would rather spend my time with people that are not so sensitive. I was just asking a question. I promise not to drink from your "pure breed only" water fountain. You guys need to relax.

I appreciate the responses regarding "fun" trials. We have some in this area, but they are all scored not judged. I like the NASTRA rules where you get judged on style, and technique.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:27 pm

Deets Sorry that you got caught up in a cross fire in which someone else has a beef because they feel NSTRA should allow their dog and have had previous B sessions about it...

Maybe another approach for some people to go to the NSTRA clubs and maybe see if they will put on a training fun day trial where everything is run like NSTRA but they cover cost of birds and maybe the member could also get that training under the situation which gets their dogs in trouble..a way to get members new people and even allow the unpapered dogs to run and no one gets hurt since it wouldn't be an official trial..Just a thought

There are fun trials in some areas...NSTRA even opened up a amateur but it is still for registered dogs. but it is designed to get those beginning dogs in the game and also can be a easier start for those who think they want to try

At Roostersmom Fun trials and other events where anyone can run are awesome to get people to check out and grow into the next level of trialing..Granted trialing isn't for everyone..

Every club has their rules and guidelines and are started for different reasons..We find the ones that we enjoy and we abide by the rules and play the game

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:17 am

The biggest reason I like Shoot to Retrieve Trials is the people, no other venue have I been made to feel part of the family and enjoy great company and food, especially the evenings camping at the grounds. I've run in a couple other venues but like Nstra mostly for the reason stated above.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:36 am

r nickell wrote:Funny thing is dogs don't care if they are registered or not. Only those people who choose to place more importance on a pedegree then the quality of the dog itself care. To the many responsible breeders and field trialers out there that place worth in a dog even if it doesn't make the cut to be a champion I thank you. Your efforts to find dogs that will never make the cut good homes and your encouragement of getting new people into the sport will not only enrich the future of field trialing but the lifes of those that you get into the sport. To others that feel any of us that choose to get an unregistered dog and dare to enter your world of field trials will harm the sport. Perhaps you need to take a close look at your attitude because surely it will do far more to dimisnish the meaning of a title then letting in an unregistered dog. I stated in an earlier post that I saw no need to change the rules of any of the groups cause there were many venues out there for both registered and unregistered dogs. In a world where hunting is a shrinking sport and where upland hunting is shrinking faster then some other types, feild trialing could find itself on the endangered list in the future unless people are encuraged to try it and made felt welcome when they do. So next time someone ask's about running a unregistered dog instead of going off about how it is going to hurt the meaning of a title. Instead try and help that person find a venue in their area that will let them and their dog compete. Sorry if I hurt some feeling with this post, but then maybe it was time someone did.

Papers? we don't need no stinken papers

You are trying very hard to make the point that anyone that supports the purebred dog is a snob, and it isn't working. I support you being able to run in any venue that supports dogs that aren't registered. But I also support the people who spend thousands of dollars proving their purebred dogs so that other purebred owners will be able to breed to the dogs that perform the way they like. See the problem is you can compete with a crossbred but it still is worthless as a breeding dog.
And of course we can do what you are doing and complain if we can't compete in your tests and trials. I have owned and seen a lot of very nice crossbreds and mutts. Just as nice a dog as they can be. But there is no further value since they don't breed true and are worthless in perpetuating any breed. It is very true that you don't need no stiken papers for somethings but you do need them if you want to play the purebred games.

Regardless of any arguement you can make a dog that isn't purebred will have to find their own games and not create a fuss over being turned away from the purebred games. Maybe you do need some stinken papers from the sounds of what you are posting.

Ezzy

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:02 am

No Ezzy I was not sorry if it came out that way. I was tring to say instead of getting is pissing matches over papers or not try and help people that ask find a place they can run. When I got my dogs I had no interest in running field trials so I did not care if they had papers. I ran a few events and found my son and I enjoy it so I was lucky enough to find a few more that my dogs could run in. How many people out there are like myself, and to tell us well you should have gotten a dog with papers to "bleep" bad for you is helping the future of the sport how? Simple fact of the matter when the person that asked the question posted it why did someone not say in NSTRA papers are required but there are other groups that it is not if you do some checking you will find some in your area. My dogs ablility to preform at this point is far greater then my ablitly to hanle or train them. I am still learning more about the sport with each trial I attend but together myself and my dogs are learning and having fun is that not the main goal even more then titles? Unregistered dogs are a fact of life out there either dogs that end up in shelters, cross breeds, or dogs bred by backyard breeders that don't know what they are doing and really shouldn't be breeding there dogs in the first place. And there are people like me that end up with these dogs and invest the time and resources in them to the point that some of them show the ablility to compete. In a perfect world only registered dogs would be out there this is not perfect world but still the one we have to deal with, so do we encourage the sport and when that person retires that unregistered dog and gets his new puppy he finds one that comes from a breeder breeding for trials. Or do we tell him tough luck and lose perhaps a customer that the breeders need to keep improving the dogs. Ezzy I think you and I are really closer on this issue then you think but somehow as often happens language got in the way.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:34 am

r nickell wrote:No Ezzy I was not sorry if it came out that way. I was tring to say instead of getting is pissing matches over papers or not try and help people that ask find a place they can run. When I got my dogs I had no interest in running field trials so I did not care if they had papers. I ran a few events and found my son and I enjoy it so I was lucky enough to find a few more that my dogs could run in. How many people out there are like myself, and to tell us well you should have gotten a dog with papers to "bleep" bad for you is helping the future of the sport how? Simple fact of the matter when the person that asked the question posted it why did someone not say in NSTRA papers are required but there are other groups that it is not if you do some checking you will find some in your area. My dogs ablility to preform at this point is far greater then my ablitly to hanle or train them. I am still learning more about the sport with each trial I attend but together myself and my dogs are learning and having fun is that not the main goal even more then titles? Unregistered dogs are a fact of life out there either dogs that end up in shelters, cross breeds, or dogs bred by backyard breeders that don't know what they are doing and really shouldn't be breeding there dogs in the first place. And there are people like me that end up with these dogs and invest the time and resources in them to the point that some of them show the ablility to compete. In a perfect world only registered dogs would be out there this is not perfect world but still the one we have to deal with, so do we encourage the sport and when that person retires that unregistered dog and gets his new puppy he finds one that comes from a breeder breeding for trials. Or do we tell him tough luck and lose perhaps a customer that the breeders need to keep improving the dogs. Ezzy I think you and I are really closer on this issue then you think but somehow as often happens language got in the way.

Just because you think YOUR dog is worth competing does not have any bearing on if it will actually be competitive, don't be upset about that because a lot of dogs don't have it. By entering your dog it adds dogs to the overall number which was stated above. This gives the winning dog more points, which it may not deserve depending on the performance, allowing the dog to get its championship. If you have dogs that are finished due to this it allows less of a dog to get bred more.

just because a dog is pure bred doesn't mean it should be competing. You would be selling hopes and dreams and not letting people know the reality. Could you really take someone's money to compete a dog that's not worth 10 minutes of your day training? There are too many good registered pure bred dogs to allow unregistered dogs in no matter how pure bred they look.

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:51 pm

ultracarry wrote:
r nickell wrote:No Ezzy I was not sorry if it came out that way. I was tring to say instead of getting is pissing matches over papers or not try and help people that ask find a place they can run. When I got my dogs I had no interest in running field trials so I did not care if they had papers. I ran a few events and found my son and I enjoy it so I was lucky enough to find a few more that my dogs could run in. How many people out there are like myself, and to tell us well you should have gotten a dog with papers to "bleep" bad for you is helping the future of the sport how? Simple fact of the matter when the person that asked the question posted it why did someone not say in NSTRA papers are required but there are other groups that it is not if you do some checking you will find some in your area. My dogs ablility to preform at this point is far greater then my ablitly to hanle or train them. I am still learning more about the sport with each trial I attend but together myself and my dogs are learning and having fun is that not the main goal even more then titles? Unregistered dogs are a fact of life out there either dogs that end up in shelters, cross breeds, or dogs bred by backyard breeders that don't know what they are doing and really shouldn't be breeding there dogs in the first place. And there are people like me that end up with these dogs and invest the time and resources in them to the point that some of them show the ablility to compete. In a perfect world only registered dogs would be out there this is not perfect world but still the one we have to deal with, so do we encourage the sport and when that person retires that unregistered dog and gets his new puppy he finds one that comes from a breeder breeding for trials. Or do we tell him tough luck and lose perhaps a customer that the breeders need to keep improving the dogs. Ezzy I think you and I are really closer on this issue then you think but somehow as often happens language got in the way.
Just because you think YOUR dog is worth competing does not have any bearing on if it will actually be competitive, don't be upset about that because a lot of dogs don't have it. By entering your dog it adds dogs to the overall number which was stated above. This gives the winning dog more points, which it may not deserve depending on the performance, allowing the dog to get its championship. If you have dogs that are finished due to this it allows less of a dog to get bred more.

just because a dog is pure bred doesn't mean it should be competing. You would be selling hopes and dreams and not letting people know the reality. Could you really take someone's money to compete a dog that's not worth 10 minutes of your day training? There are too many good registered pure bred dogs to allow unregistered dogs in no matter how pure bred they look.

Ultracarry, I think you need to go back and re-read r nickell's posts.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:07 pm

I did and I read his previous posts... Not only referring to the one post because if I quoted the whole soap box it would take up too much room. Sorry but the OP asked a question about NASTRA.

If someone wants to know about where else they can run they could easily go to the search box provided by this site and type in mixed breed trials or unregistered dog in trials I'm pretty sure they can find it. If someone wants something bad enough they can do research. No one forces anyone to take a unregistered dog and it is a choice to take the dog in. A lot of things need to be considered when buying a dog. You should know the pros and cons. No one should be patted on the back and told how unfortunate they are and how they are a victim because of their own choice. Maybe that's just the future of this country though.

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:21 pm

I hope you read all his previous post in this thread, that is why I had it plural. I did not get from any of his post that he thought he should be patted on the back and told how unfortunate he is and how he is a victim because of his own choice. But then I guess we read between the lines different.

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Just because you think YOUR dog is worth competing does not have any bearing on if it will actually be competitive, don't be upset about that because a lot of dogs don't have it. By entering your dog it adds dogs to the overall number which was stated above. This gives the winning dog more points, which it may not deserve depending on the performance, allowing the dog to get its championship. If you have dogs that are finished due to this it allows less of a dog to get bred more.

I do not have to think my dog is competitive since this early this spring when my son wanted to try and run a field trial with him he has ran in 6 events. His record is up to this point.
1 first
1 second
2 thirds
1 fourth
in fields of between 7 to 22 dogs per events. I am not sure about your dogs giving others easy titles, but I think my son and his rescue mutt so far are holding their own.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:18 pm

Guys -

The pedigree registries are private enterprises and are self supporting. They depend on registration income(to some extent) to continue to survive. Requiring that a dog be registered in and by the same registy which sanctions the trial or test or show is simply a way to assure that a certain percentage of the dogs that are bred, are also registered, providing a level of finacial support to the registering body. Simply put...it is a business and requiring a dog to be registered in order to compete is a sound business decision.

If you have your dog registered FDSB, any placements won by that dog in an AKC trial will not be recorded. The reverse is also true. An AKC registered dog competing in an AF trial will not have a placement recorded. The dog needs to be registered in the registry which sanctions the trials. All of my dogs are registered in BOTH registries, since I compete in both.

If you have a dog that is registered AF and AKC, it STILL must be registered with NSTRA to be able to compete in a NSTRA trial.
If your dog is not registered in the correct registy, there are some venues you may not compete in. Why?? Because that is the way the rules read.

It is a fact that the vast majority of registered sporting breed dogs will never compete in shows or tests or trials.
However, the breeders who register their litters and dogs do so to provide some level of assurance of genetic purity to prospective buyers. This(in theory) allows those breeders to charge more for purebred, registered dogs. This is ALSO a business and the success of this business provides the underlying financial support to the pedigree registries.

If breeders were not able to charge more for registered purebred dogs, the whole thing would fall apart, becasue...why in the world would anyone go through the trouble and the expense??

If your dog is not registered and is not registerable because its parentage cannot be clearly established, there are some games you may not be able to play with your dog. Find the ones you can play, if that is what you wish to do... and enjoy.

RayG

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:25 pm

This debate seems to come up quite frequently. As a new member of NSTRA I'll weigh if ya don't mind. My best dog is unregistered, but a pure breed. I can't obtain papers in anyway. I understand they you can't go to an organization who have done things a certain way and say, "hey, change your rules for me and my agenda to fit my needs." However, eventually NSTRA won't have a choice but to allow PAL dogs. We're having a hard time filling up trials and trials are being canceled because of it. 80% of the people I've spoken to don't have an issue with allowing PAL dogs to compete because it brings new member and fills up trials. The board in place now won't listen to the notion of it being brought up and they may not for a few years, but eventually the majority will voice their opinions and the lure of new members and more money will be too much for them to resist. I can see both sides of the fence and I don't agree 100% with either side, not many do. I agree with posts from others on here when then say that one thing that has really set NSTRA apart, at least to me is simply the people. I've made a lot of great friends in the past 8 months I've been around our region. One of the most successful members has Brittany's that I am extremely impressed with and really like. He's allowing me to run one for him and pay half the entree fees, the president of our region has offered to give a couple of his dogs to run and allowed me to take my favorite with me to hunt pheasant in Kansas. The 2 men I have mentioned and another have spent hours with me working my dogs and teaching/showing me how they work theirs to help me learn, I'm 23 and I'm new to this. THAT'S what it's all about to me. The relationships and the fun you have competing. I've had several of my buddies join and compete in NSTRA since and that never would've happened had the existing members turned up their nose when I said the only dog I own that I feel comfortable competing with doesn't have papers. The OP asked a simple, non-controversial question that you all turned into anything but that. Some have displayed arrogance and made themselves look like idiots and now the OP has stated he'd rather not join because of it. I have pm-ed him and told him to go and speak with his region and get to know them instead of making a judgement because of a few idiots that should get a idiot proof filter installed on their computer before posting on here. Pure-bred only people get so offended and act like people are out to get them and we all think they're snobs and that's not the case. I can understand some of your side too. But for NSTRA to continue to exist, it's going to have to make some adjustments or it will die out.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:51 pm

Ray, Dogs do NOT need to be registered with Nstra to compete in Nstra events.....they may need to be enrolled with nstra to compete in one of the championship events, not positive. What they do need to be is registered with another recognized registry AKC/FDSB and of a pointing breed.

But to compete and win Ch status in nstra you do not need to have the dog registered with nstra, but those titles and pts will not be displayed on a AF/FDSB pedigree.

BTW, our shoot to retrieve trials are very hard to get into....there is always a waiting list and if you don't send your entry post marked the first day its allowed to be post marked your going to be on waiting lists.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:53 pm

r nickell wrote:
Just because you think YOUR dog is worth competing does not have any bearing on if it will actually be competitive, don't be upset about that because a lot of dogs don't have it. By entering your dog it adds dogs to the overall number which was stated above. This gives the winning dog more points, which it may not deserve depending on the performance, allowing the dog to get its championship. If you have dogs that are finished due to this it allows less of a dog to get bred more.
I do not have to think my dog is competitive since this early this spring when my son wanted to try and run a field trial with him he has ran in 6 events. His record is up to this point.
1 first
1 second
2 thirds
1 fourth
in fields of between 7 to 22 dogs per events. I am not sure about your dogs giving others easy titles, but I think my son and his rescue mutt so far are holding their own.

Thats great, and congrats to your son !!! But that still does not mean the dog would be competitive in AF trials....who knows.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:58 pm

r nickell wrote:
Just because you think YOUR dog is worth competing does not have any bearing on if it will actually be competitive, don't be upset about that because a lot of dogs don't have it. By entering your dog it adds dogs to the overall number which was stated above. This gives the winning dog more points, which it may not deserve depending on the performance, allowing the dog to get its championship. If you have dogs that are finished due to this it allows less of a dog to get bred more.
I do not have to think my dog is competitive since this early this spring when my son wanted to try and run a field trial with him he has ran in 6 events. His record is up to this point.
1 first
1 second
2 thirds
1 fourth
in fields of between 7 to 22 dogs per events. I am not sure about your dogs giving others easy titles, but I think my son and his rescue mutt so far are holding their own.

That's good for your son and not something to put down. What I was trying to say is every ones dog is the best in their own eyes... You can't tell me that mine could not win against yours anyday because in my eyes mine will always be better. Shoot its my only child .

but as you already pointed out (and the purpose of this thread) you won't be able to see if the dog is competitive in NASTRA because you can't compete. A lot of people believe the only way to prove the dog is in the events they are in. Not putting you down but its a mixed breed. Do you expect pure bred enthusiasts to let mixed breeds in? If you want a mixed breed I may have some comming out of my bitcych in a few months......

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:28 pm

Deets wrote:On second thought...........Maybe I don't want to compete in NASTRA, even if I could get papers. If you guys get this upset over a simple question on an internet forum, then I would rather spend my time with people that are not so sensitive. I was just asking a question. I promise not to drink from your "pure breed only" water fountain. You guys need to relax.

I appreciate the responses regarding "fun" trials. We have some in this area, but they are all scored not judged. I like the NASTRA rules where you get judged on style, and technique.

Deets, I don't think anybody is getting upset....People on here are just answering your question and giving the reason why. IMO, there was only one poster who got upset. In addition it seems to me that most of the posters are trying to give you info on what and where you could compete with your dog without papers. I believe if you could get papers and decided to compete in NSTRA, you would find that the people involved are some of the friendliest and helpful people you could ask for. Please just keep in mind, anytime you ask a question on an internet forum about any venue or organization, more times than not, there will be some controversy in the thread.

Good luck,
Charlie

r nickell · Post by **r nickell** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:03 am

Ultra if you read my posts never once did I suggest NSTRA needed to let in unregistered dogs or complain because they didn't. What I was saying instead of telling someone you need to get a registered dog if you want to play the game, help that person find a group in his/her area in which they can compete. Encouragement of people to try field trialing no matter which group they run in helps the entire sport. Now the sad thing is most people on this fourm if the OP showed up at a field trial they were at and ask around would be encouraged to do so. Told no NSTRA is closed to unregistered dogs but there are groups around that are not you might try one of them. On here though it seems if this question is asked suddenly it becomes a fight over changing the rules and that is what it needs not to happen. If we want to have that arguement it needs to be on a diffrent threat dedicated to just that, not in one where someone is asking for help in finding out the awnser to thier question. NSTRA in some areas is doing well as stated by some in other areas it is not, the awnser is not changing the rules. The awnser is getting more people envolved in the sport of feild trialing in general.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:05 am

Many thanks to the posters that referred the OP to available formats to run his dog in.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:08 am

Deets wrote:On second thought...........Maybe I don't want to compete in NASTRA, even if I could get papers. If you guys get this upset over a simple question on an internet forum, then I would rather spend my time with people that are not so sensitive. I was just asking a question. I promise not to drink from your "pure breed only" water fountain. You guys need to relax.

I appreciate the responses regarding "fun" trials. We have some in this area, but they are all scored not judged. I like the NASTRA rules where you get judged on style, and technique.

Hope you, don't really feel that way. Go to a trial and meet the folks. It is fun and I have only met a couple that were jerks and the best way to set them straight is to ignore them, go enjoy everyone else and if braced with them try to beat them, (in the field).

NSTRA is scored and judged which produces the score. But more birds, good work, good coverage, good shooting equal more points and hopefully enough for a win or placement.

I have put on a couple trials that were NSTRA format to try to garner interest. Although folks participated they were not willing to travel. But it was four days of fun. Perhaps you could set up your own trial for fun.

NSTRA is a fun game, good people, good dogs.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:16 am

Great post.

Ruffshooter wrote:
Deets wrote:On second thought...........Maybe I don't want to compete in NASTRA, even if I could get papers. If you guys get this upset over a simple question on an internet forum, then I would rather spend my time with people that are not so sensitive. I was just asking a question. I promise not to drink from your "pure breed only" water fountain. You guys need to relax.

I appreciate the responses regarding "fun" trials. We have some in this area, but they are all scored not judged. I like the NASTRA rules where you get judged on style, and technique.
Hope you, don't really feel that way. Go to a trial and meet the folks. It is fun and I have only met a couple that were jerks and the best way to set them straight is to ignore them, go enjoy everyone else and if braced with them try to beat them, (in the field).

NSTRA is scored and judged which produces the score. But more birds, good work, good coverage, good shooting equal more points and hopefully enough for a win or placement.

I have put on a couple trials that were NSTRA format to try to garner interest. Although folks participated they were not willing to travel. But it was four days of fun. Perhaps you could set up your own trial for fun.

NSTRA is a fun game, good people, good dogs.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:40 am

ElectricGunDogs wrote:instead of making a judgement because of a few idiots

Who do you think you are calling anybody an idiot.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:16 am

You honestly think none of those posts weren't idiotic, and did nothing but push the OP away from trialing?! Maybe I should rephrase myself, no one is an idiot, their posts were. Whether you think somebody's words reveal them to be an idiot or not is up to you.

I tried to get the mods to make the official call out of idiots but we figured I'd be too busy on here.

I'm just messin with you Ron, you're a good guy.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:00 am

ElectricGunDogs wrote:This debate seems to come up quite frequently. As a new member of NSTRA I'll weigh if ya don't mind. My best dog is unregistered, but a pure breed. I can't obtain papers in anyway. I understand they you can't go to an organization who have done things a certain way and say, "hey, change your rules for me and my agenda to fit my needs." However, eventually NSTRA won't have a choice but to allow PAL dogs. We're having a hard time filling up trials and trials are being canceled because of it. 80% of the people I've spoken to don't have an issue with allowing PAL dogs to compete because it brings new member and fills up trials. The board in place now won't listen to the notion of it being brought up and they may not for a few years, but eventually the majority will voice their opinions and the lure of new members and more money will be too much for them to resist. I can see both sides of the fence and I don't agree 100% with either side, not many do. I agree with posts from others on here when then say that one thing that has really set NSTRA apart, at least to me is simply the people. I've made a lot of great friends in the past 8 months I've been around our region. One of the most successful members has Brittany's that I am extremely impressed with and really like. He's allowing me to run one for him and pay half the entree fees, the president of our region has offered to give a couple of his dogs to run and allowed me to take my favorite with me to hunt pheasant in Kansas. The 2 men I have mentioned and another have spent hours with me working my dogs and teaching/showing me how they work theirs to help me learn, I'm 23 and I'm new to this. THAT'S what it's all about to me. The relationships and the fun you have competing. I've had several of my buddies join and compete in NSTRA since and that never would've happened had the existing members turned up their nose when I said the only dog I own that I feel comfortable competing with doesn't have papers. The OP asked a simple, non-controversial question that you all turned into anything but that. Some have displayed arrogance and made themselves look like idiots and now the OP has stated he'd rather not join because of it. I have pm-ed him and told him to go and speak with his region and get to know them instead of making a judgement because of a few idiots that should get a idiot proof filter installed on their computer before posting on here. Pure-bred only people get so offended and act like people are out to get them and we all think they're snobs and that's not the case. I can understand some of your side too. But for NSTRA to continue to exist, it's going to have to make some adjustments or it will die out.

Being new to NSTRA, how were you able to figure out whats weong with it and how to fix it before the people who have been there for years?

Ezzy

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:30 am

Nothing I said was new or hasn't been said before by others. What's wrong with NSTRA is that we're having a hard time filling up some trials. Isn't that a pretty obvious problem?

I don't think NSTRA has a ton of problems at all, in fact there are only 2 that come to mind.

1) The PAL dog situation. Which wouldn't relevant if trials were filled up everywhere and we weren't struggling for membership.

2) A region's president gets no form of compensation for the enormous amount of time, money, and effort they put into trials and the well being of their region. Not to mention the headache of having to deal with any issues that anyone has.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:39 am

Interesting. NASTRA having a hard time filling trials? Who would have thunk it. But the answer isn't letting non-registered dogs in....

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:40 am

We have no problems filling trials here in the east, now getting a amature or fun class filled has not happened, just not enough people to fill or even half fill one.

There are regularly 12-16 dog waiting lists for the Open trials. Just shy of enough for another trial and the grounds for doubles are hard to get lined up here.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:54 am

I didn't say everyone was having that problem. But it is a general problem. That's awesome that yalls problem is having too many dogs! Great problem to have considering the alternative!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:57 am

Please tone it down folks.

If you are having trouble being polite, write anything you want, but hit the red X in the upper right corner before you hit the Submit button.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:10 am

birddog1968 wrote:We have no problems filling trials here in the east, now getting a amature or fun class filled has not happened, just not enough people to fill or even half fill one.

Well, maybe in your part of the east. I can't even get it off the ground in the Northeast. :roll:
The central Canada region fights hard to make full trials. at least in the past few years not sure about last year.

I am hoping to participate again by next fall (if I can afford it) but, I will be travelling to Canada 8 hours or VA 17 hours. But that is how much I like the game and people.

Rick

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:17 am

Ruffshooter wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:We have no problems filling trials here in the east, now getting a amature or fun class filled has not happened, just not enough people to fill or even half fill one.
Well, maybe in your part of the east. I can't even get it off the ground in the Northeast. :roll:
The central Canada region fights hard to make full trials. at least in the past few years not sure about last year.

I am hoping to participate again by next fall (if I can afford it) but, I will be travelling to Canada 8 hours or VA 17 hours. But that is how much I like the game and people.

Rick

17 hours to Va? Wow, didn't think you were that far up there Rick.....

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:28 am

I can make Front Royal in 12 to 13 hours if I do not stop, but I usually need to stop a couple times for a cat nap and food.
I think it is about 16 to Lynchburg again stops etc.can put more on that.
But I love going when I can.
I would love to do a two plus week vacation hitting three weekends of trials and visiting historical stuff in the week. But times as they are. :

Also, If I pay attention to the GPS add half a day. :roll:

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:32 am

Ruffshooter wrote:
Also, If I pay attention to the GPS add half a day. :roll:

Oh yeah The good ole GPS