Pedigrees

[Ranger351]

Are the names clown , chief , and city slicker good names to have in a bloodline for a gsp?

[markj]

mmmmmmm, could be. need a little more info.

[Cajun Casey]

I love Rawhide's Clown dogs, especially combined with Cosmo.

[ultracarry]

+1 mark...

Depends on what your looking for.

[cjhills]

In spite of what we are all led to believe and would like to believe every time you breed a litter half of the parents genetics are lost. So, there are very little of these dogs genetics left and why do we always assume the good genetics are left and the bad ones gone. Could go the other way. J

[Hunter]

Depends on what you are looking for and how far back they are in the pedigree. I saw Clown many times at trials and in the sand hills and still the only GSP to win the AA nationals 3 years in a row. He didnt have or produce a ton of style, and for as much as he was bred in his day you dont see allot of his off spring, at least not on the trial circuit. What is the complete pedigree? What chief are we talking about, clown produced a dog called Happy Havens Geronimo ( Chief ), he died at a young age.

[Ranger351]

Just saw an ad for pups. Dams side city slicker cheif and clown sires side has clown and city slicker. Both have some ft but mainly pure hunting lines. Sire & dam both 55-60lbs. Dont know much else as I didn't speak with them long.

[trigger1989]

Well since they produced ranger and trigger I'd say they are pretty darn good.

[Ranger351]

I'm not talking bout our boys trigger, I'm buying a new pup and checking out the bloodline.

[ultracarry]

In spite of what we are all led to believe and would like to believe every time you breed a litter half of the parents genetics are lost. So, there are very little of these dogs genetics left and why do we always assume the good genetics are left and the bad ones gone. Could go the other way. J

I would think half the genetics are lost from the proven sire because the dam usually is not proven and 100% of the pups don't go to the same owner (breeder) and the same trainer with the same training methods.. too many variables.

Could be the difference between the owners and how they treat the dog as much as the trainer and types of exposures they are given and the time frame given. For some reason a few people have consistency with developing good dogs and others can't get one to stand still unless its dead.

[jcbuttry8]

I owned two dogs out of Rawhide's clown back in the day. They were meat dogs, no trials. Clown was a grandfather on top and bottom. I can tell you two of the best quail dogs I ever owned. They could run all day and just had great noses. Ton of natural ability. They were not the most stylish dog you ever saw but brought back a ton of birds, and that was all i cared about.

I'm sure Tommyboy would have a different view on it. He hated those dogs. They sure made it hard for his Irish setter pup to get into birds. Spent a ton of time listening to him complain.

Joe

[cjhills]

In spite of what we are all led to believe and would like to believe every time you breed a litter half of the parents genetics are lost. So, there are very little of these dogs genetics left and why do we always assume the good genetics are left and the bad ones gone. Could go the other way. J

I would think half the genetics are lost from the proven sire because the dam usually is not proven and 100% of the pups don't go to the same owner (breeder) and the same trainer with the same training methods.. too many variables.

Could be the difference between the owners and how they treat the dog as much as the trainer and types of exposures they are given and the time frame given. For some reason a few people have consistency with developing good dogs and others can't get one to stand still unless its dead.

I am going to bite on this in spite of it being against my better judgement. Don't bash to hard.
Half of the genetics are lost from the proven sire and from the dam, proven or unproven,because that is how genetics works.
It makes no difference where the puppies go or what happens to them after conception that is environment.
I have always wonder if the great dogs would have been so great if they hadn't got lucky enough to find a good promoter. Which pretty much shoots down the blue hen and prepotent sire theory. Which imo is geneticly impossible. very few dogs produce consistently better than they are. If they did it would be easy. j

[Ranger351]

Ok guys heres the info I have so give me your opinions and any info you know.
On the dams side is clowns was chief sn47987302, indian city slicker sn5702005,nfc fc rawhides clown sf290858,nfc heide 's mighty city slicker sm84585503
Sire has fc afc levys city slicken clown sr07959504, thats the only one on his side

[Ahumphers91a]

I know Ken Levy who own's FC AFC Levy's City Slicken Clown. He actually has pup's on the ground right now. Here's the pedigree: http://nextgenerationgermanshorthairs.n ... erations=5
Sorry to hijack the post LOL

[kensfishing]

Chief is Clown's War Chief and Babe, Indian City Slicker was owned by Dave Scott. I own Levy's City Slicken Clown, Mike. I shot my first pheasant in Kansas over Babe and whelped a litter from Chief and Babe at my house in Az. Chief was a ton of bird dog. I hunted over him for almost ten years til he was shot at the age of twelve. Most of the people on this board don't know who Clown or Slicker really was some do. Clown bred to a good bitch produced great dogs, the wrong bitch bad dogs just like every breeding. I've been lucky to own a son of Clown and have several grandsons and granddaughters also. They are some great bird dogs.

[Ahumphers91a]

I added the pictures of the pup's on the sale page.

[cjhills]

should be good
bird dogs based on parents and grand parents

[ultracarry]

What do you want to do with the dogs.

[kensfishing]

The dogs they're talking about are four and five generations back.

[RayGubernat]

In spite of what we are all led to believe and would like to believe every time you breed a litter half of the parents genetics are lost. So, there are very little of these dogs genetics left and why do we always assume the good genetics are left and the bad ones gone. Could go the other way. J

I would think half the genetics are lost from the proven sire because the dam usually is not proven and 100% of the pups don't go to the same owner (breeder) and the same trainer with the same training methods.. too many variables.

Could be the difference between the owners and how they treat the dog as much as the trainer and types of exposures they are given and the time frame given. For some reason a few people have consistency with developing good dogs and others can't get one to stand still unless its dead.

I am going to bite on this in spite of it being against my better judgement. Don't bash to hard.
Half of the genetics are lost from the proven sire and from the dam, proven or unproven,because that is how genetics works.
It makes no difference where the puppies go or what happens to them after conception that is environment.
I have always wonder if the great dogs would have been so great if they hadn't got lucky enough to find a good promoter. Which pretty much shoots down the blue hen and prepotent sire theory. Which imo is geneticly impossible. very few dogs produce consistently better than they are. If they did it would be easy. j

cjhills -

It is entirely possible, and even rather likely, that a HUGE proportion of the genetics of what made a great dog great...gets passed down to succeeding genertions. Why?? How can this be??

The answer is simple. It is called selection. We humans, as breeders, breed certain dogs with certain other dogs and we look for a certain outcome...a certain set of attributes in the progeny. The distribution of those genetic variables in the puppies is indeed random...but the seplection process most definitely is not...if the breeder knows what they are doing.

If animals were put together at random, and their progeny were put together at random, your conclusion about the genetics would be accurate. However, the process of selective breeding is NOT random, or rather, should not be random.

I cannot speak to shorthairs, but I can tell you that I can see influences of certain dogs in my pointers and some of those dogs have been dead for twenty years or more. Good breeders keep pups with the attributes they like, breed on those attributes to both maintain and improve those attributes in succeeding generations.

The real difficulty, when it comes to bird dogs, is the incredibly wide span of attributes that must be developed and maintained.

By way of comparison, a greyhound has to see its game and run it down. Breeding greyhounds obviously focuses on the ability of the dog to run at blinding speed and not much else.

Bird dogs have to run and to identify likely cover. They must see and smell and process all that information to find birds. Then they have to point and hold that bird... all while maintaining contact with a hunter who is much, much slower and less maneuverable than they are.
They have to adapt to the cover, the game and the needs and requirements of their particular hunter and still find and hold birds.

That is a very much more complex set of attributes to keep track of, not to mention to maintain and to attempt to improve.

RayG

[markj]

...gets passed down to succeeding genertions

Yep same in horses, cows, and other animals. Humans? not so much altho my son is a copy of me, just smaller for now

[cjhills]

Ray:
This is getting far from the OP.
This is not my conclusion about genetics. It is how it works. We breed for traits that we like and try to breed dogs that have these traits. But only half of each parents genetics are passed on. Through linebreeding or trying to breed dogs with simiar traits we hope to get what we like. The results can be good or sometimes disastrous. That is where the breeds came from and what Bob Wehle's Program was based on.
If you breed your dog to a collie the puppies will be half pointer and half collie. If you breed a pup from that litter to a collie the pups will be three quarters collie. They very likely would still have a few of your dogs traits. But if I was looking for a pointing pup I wouldn't buy a pup from This litter ,based on the fact that your dog was the grandsire, no matter how good your dog is because most of his genetics are gone and he is only three generations back. However, if I was looking for a herding dog I very well might buy one based on how good the parents are .If you go to great grand sires or dams they alone have very little influence on the puppies. AS far as you can go with this is 15/16 so there would always be a small amount off your dogs genetics.
AS I said before that is likely a very good litter because of how the parents are bred.Great Grand parents and farther back don't count for a lot.
We breed for a lot more things in dogs than any other animal. that is what makes it interresting.
We are all at the mercy of the genetic gods. I never bred a litter yet that was as good as I hoped for. Some are very good. But I am still waiting for perfect.
Be kind. Jerry

[RayGubernat]

Ray:
This is getting far from the OP.
This is not my conclusion about genetics. It is how it works. We breed for traits that we like and try to breed dogs that have these traits. But only half of each parents genetics are passed on. Through linebreeding or trying to breed dogs with simiar traits we hope to get what we like. The results can be good or sometimes disastrous. That is where the breeds came from and what Bob Wehle's Program was based on.
If you breed your dog to a collie the puppies will be half pointer and half collie. If you breed a pup from that litter to a collie the pups will be three quarters collie. They very likely would still have a few of your dogs traits. But if I was looking for a pointing pup I wouldn't buy a pup from This litter ,based on the fact that your dog was the grandsire, no matter how good your dog is because most of his genetics are gone and he is only three generations back. However, if I was looking for a herding dog I very well might buy one based on how good the parents are .If you go to great grand sires or dams they alone have very little influence on the puppies. AS far as you can go with this is 15/16 so there would always be a small amount off your dogs genetics.
AS I said before that is likely a very good litter because of how the parents are bred.Great Grand parents and farther back don't count for a lot.
We breed for a lot more things in dogs than any other animal. that is what makes it interresting.
We are all at the mercy of the genetic gods. I never bred a litter yet that was as good as I hoped for. Some are very good. But I am still waiting for perfect.
Be kind. Jerry

Genetics as a science is base on the fact that the distribution of genes and such is a random phenomenon. The distribution of genetic material can usually be represented by the familiar "bell shaped" curve of a "normal" distribution.

Selective breeding, if it is done right... is very, very far from random. What you seem to be forgetting is that we are not(or should not be) selecting individual animals for breeding based solely upon their pedigree, but rather on their abilities. Not the who...but the what. If you continually select for a set of abilities...the level of those abilities in the breed will increase.

And you are right...this is pretty far from the OP's topic.

RayG

[Ranger351]

Sorry for my rant that got deleted. I dont run trials, my trophies are the wild birds my dog finds and the smiles on my wife and kids face during and after a hunt. I hunt public lands and choose not to pay to hunt preserves. I'm not rich I'm a blue collar hard labor to earn a paycheck support my wife 3 kids and an elderly mother. I hunt with a wingmaster not a $3k gun. If all that makes so many here better than me so be it. I'll leave.

[markj]

Ranger, dont leave, there are somefine litters out there will have pups like you are in need of. There are some that wont break uer pocketbook out there. The pup will be with ya for a long time so look around. The FT guys want the smokinest dog they can find, you must ask yourself is that what I want? if not look around. Now I am not knockin the FT dogs, they serve a purpose. Them guyswork hard to produce the pups they get.

Cattle are started here like the gelbvieh, semen wqs brought over and IM was done on aselect herd ofcows werehere, then selective breeding to the offspring resulted in these to make as close to theoriginal as possible but the ones here are listed as 15/16s pure bred gelbviehs a germnan breed of cows that "do it all" good milkers and good meat producers. Germans were like this, one to do it all. Same with dogs and other animals. Just gotta ask is this right for my needs, if not keep looking.

[cjhills]

.
Genetics as a science is base on the fact that the distribution of genes and such is a random phenomenon. The distribution of genetic material can usually be represented by the familiar "bell shaped" curve of a "normal" distribution.

Selective breeding, if it is done right... is very, very far from random. What you seem to be forgetting is that we are not(or should not be) selecting individual animals for breeding based solely upon their pedigree, but rather on their abilities. Not the who...but the what. If you continually select for a set of abilities...the level of those abilities in the breed will increase.And you are right...this is pretty far from the OP's

topic.

You do a great job of making my point. Individual s four or five generations back count for very little. Which is exactly what OP was about

[Ranger351]

Ok so met with the breeders. Saw the sire in the field. What a stud. Couldn't shoot anything for him but he did awesome. Despite the negative responses saying they're not real hunting dogs if they don't ftI am impressed. Saw a homemade video of the dam hunting last year and she's a machine. Looks to me to be a good litter. Saw the pups and go on the 18th to pick one out. Got potl and 7 f & 4 m so I'm looking for a female.

[trueblu]

Ranger, I watched all of the dogs you have names run, I owned a blue hen female, direct daughter of Slick, owned several Clown double grandget and personally didn't like any of them. Jerry's right, Clown threw little style, lots of hardheaded birddog that could be difficult to train. Slick was one of the best we have ever had, was as sweet as they came, and was ugly as a mud fence. All of the Slick dogs I have owned or helped train, and there have been many were all birddogs, sweet, and also hard headed. Reality is..there are only a few Clown or Slick sons and daughters still alive, and many were never used for much but brood females and studs, living on the name of those two dogs. Overbred and underproven!!PERSONALLY, I wouldn't own a Clown dog and would own a Slick dog in a second. In fact, I still own a Slick grandson. But, when all is said and done, look at the parents, see their traits, have the breeder work them, kill birds over them, then decide if you like the parents enough you'd own them. If not, move on. Too many nice pups out there out of great dogs, UP CLOSE.

All I know about genetics, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree and when you combine two animals you get the worst of each not so much the best!! IN MY OPINION!!

[Ranger351]

Well as I said saw the sire and was impressed. Dams still fresh off a litter so just saw a video of her and was happy. Once I see the pups I'll know for sure but I'm already lookin for names

[Francois P vd Walt]

In spite of what we are all led to believe and would like to believe every time you breed a litter half of the parents genetics are lost. So, there are very little of these dogs genetics left and why do we always assume the good genetics are left and the bad ones gone. Could go the other way. J

I would think half the genetics are lost from the proven sire because the dam usually is not proven and 100% of the pups don't go to the same owner (breeder) and the same trainer with the same training methods.. too many variables.

Could be the difference between the owners and how they treat the dog as much as the trainer and types of exposures they are given and the time frame given. For some reason a few people have consistency with developing good dogs and others can't get one to stand still unless its dead.

+1 on this !

[Chief_dog]

I owned Chief and Babe in that dog's pedigree. I owned a half dozen direct sons and daughters of Clown, and Chief was the only one worth feeding. He was a once in a lifetime dog. I went through over 50 dogs in the next ten years looking for another one that compared to him, and finally gave up. He was a true all-age dog at heart, and I had a lot of hunters freak out when I would turn him loose, but he had thousands of wild birds killed over him in his lifetime. He taught me the most important lesson I've ever learned about bird hunting: let your dog roll and just trust him. If I would have field trialed back then, he would have finished in no time. Babe was a nice solid gundog. Easy handling, light footed/snappy, and just a nice solid birddog. Her biggest knock was she only had a about a 10 oclock tail.

I don't know how far back those dogs are in the pup's pedigree, but personally, I put little stock in anything behind the grandparents. As far as the bloodlines, I'm a big fan of the slick dogs. I don't own any dogs with any Clown blood in them anymore, but would if the right breeding presented itself. I just had too many problems with passive/aggressive hard headed dogs with most of the clown stuff I owned and saw. Chief just happened to be the exception to the rule.

[tfbirddog2]

I've got Rawhide's Clown top and Bottom coming out of my line, from my old girl that I lost last year, she was a guide dog but could have trialed her if I had wanted same with her offspring too.Will be having a litter in May from that ped again.