20 ga for training and field trials

[bigdaddy]

I am trying to find one gun to fill a variety of needs; training and field trials (AKC and AFTCA trials for pointing breeds), some hunting and something for my 9 & 10 year old boys to learn to shoot with. Does anyone know any reason not to use a 20 ga for field trials and training? I would use Empty primed shells or a primer insert like the one that LCS offers.

[Cajun Casey]

AKC Non-retrieving and American Field use pistols and all gunning is done by official guns, not handlers in AKC Retrieving stakes.

[kensfishing]

A twenty gauge is more than enough gun for any one, training, hunting and if you get to shoot for the callbacks at trials. They still shoot on course for some AF events.

[Cajun Casey]

A twenty gauge is more than enough gun for any one, training, hunting and if you get to shoot for the callbacks at trials. They still shoot on course for some AF events.

Which all breed Field formats shoot on course?

[kensfishing]

Who said anything about all breeds. You need to get a clue sometimes.

[Cajun Casey]

Who said anything about all breeds. You need to get a clue sometimes.

Well, considering the OP's dog has a tail.......

[ElhewPointer]

AKC Non-retrieving and American Field use pistols and all gunning is done by official guns, not handlers in AKC Retrieving stakes.

Actually you need to get a clue on this too. Go to a trial or two before you type. To the OP, you can use a shotgun at AF trials, you just have to have an insert that will change it to a 209 primer. It has to be a gun that can break, so single shot, side by side or o/u.

[dan v]

A twenty gauge is more than enough gun for any one, training, hunting and if you get to shoot for the callbacks at trials. They still shoot on course for some AF events.

I thought AF was pop gun only? Wasn't that the decree from Bernie? Blank shotguns & blank pistols?

Elhew...I thought is was manufactured solid barrel guns only?

[Cajun Casey]

A twenty gauge is more than enough gun for any one, training, hunting and if you get to shoot for the callbacks at trials. They still shoot on course for some AF events.

I thought AF was pop gun only? Wasn't that the decree from Bernie? Blank shotguns & blank pistols?

Elhew...I thought is was manufactured solid barrel guns only?

Seriously, I asked because I've never seen anything capable of firing a live round allowed in AF.

[rockyridge kennels]

Ammunition

Section 15. The use of live ammunition is banned in all trials held by member clubs and in all Amateur Championships sanctioned by the corporation. If a handler uses live ammunition he and all his dogs shall be disqualified from the stake. The use of open barrel .410 gauge shotguns using ½ load specified safety blank ammunition in lieu of solid barrel blank pistols at AFTCA sanctioned trials is permitted. At the discretion of land owners and hosts pistols may be required.

a. Only specified safety blanks used in re-enactment events and endorsed by AFTCA governance may be used. (1/2 load Grey) safety blanks emit no solid material from the barrel. Judges may ask for verification of such prior to breakaway.
b. Shotguns (.410 ga) must be fired in a prescribed manner, i.e., skyward and away from the direction of the gallery and judges, or the dog and handler may be disqualified from the stake at the discretion of the judges.
c. The barrel of the shotgun should never be used for flushing by the handler, thus minimizing any foreign materials from entering the open barrel. The gun should be held in a skyward position and never pointed toward the gallery or judges. Failure to comply could result in a dog or handler being disqualified in that stake.
d. The use of live ammunition is banned in all trials by member clubs and in all Amateur Championships sanctioned by the corporation. If a handler uses live ammunition he and all his dogs shall be disqualified from the stake.
e. Clubs at their discretion may provide specified safety blank ammunition to be used. The source for approved safety blanks ammunition shall be posed on the AFTCA


From AFTCA Running rules. Not sure where the .209 primer only came from, .209 maybe used but NOT ONLY used.

[RayGubernat]

Bigdaddy -

In the vast, vast majority of AF field trials and ALL AKC field trials, you are not permitted to use an open barrel gun. Open barrel guns are SPECIFICALLY prohibited in just about all AF trials in my area. This is specified in the advertisements in the American Field. There are a very, very few high end trials where an open barreled gun is required or permitted and in most of them a special theatrical load is required, I believe. Obviously, if you participate in NSTRA trials where the handler shots the bird so the dog can retrieve, open barrel shotguns are required.

For the vast, vast majority of trials, except for championships, a .22 starter pistol with #2 ramset loads is all you need. At about six bucks for a box of 100 you can make a lot of noise for not much money. .22 starter pistols range in price from about $20 for a junky one that will last you about a year, on upwards. If you buy a decent starter pistol, like a used NEF you will have it for the rest of your life and your sons' lives too. I bought a used one from an old field trialer a couple of years ago for fifty bucks.
Just tie a stout string to it and attach it to your belt so you don't lose it. Also do not disassemble it to load it in the field because you will drop the pin and not be able to find it, rendering the gun unuseable. Been there did that too.


As far as a youth gun is concerned, a 20 gauge pump is hard to beat. I recommend Remington. I have carried a 20 ga. shotgun for many years and never felt I needed more gun except when I was deer hunting with buckshot.

RayG

[kensfishing]

That was the OP thought on the 20 gauge for an all around gun for everything including his kid. Let's get this right.

[Ruffshooter]

I am trying to find one gun to fill a variety of needs; training and field trials (AKC and AFTCA trials for pointing breeds), some hunting and something for my 9 & 10 year old boys to learn to shoot with. Does anyone know any reason not to use a 20 ga for field trials and training? I would use Empty primed shells or a primer insert like the one that LCS offers.

20 gauge is a great gun. You can get different loads and shot that will do what you need.
You can use it for training. I tie an orange ribbon on mine for when I set the gun down to go take care of a correction or what ever. I am kind of good at loosing stuff.
You can use for hunting grouse, Pheasants, woodcock, etc.
You can use it for NSTRA trials, some of the Hunting dog challenges.
You can use it for skeet, sporting clays etc.
In NAVHDA you will carry a gun during the days events although you do not shoot birds with it there are designated gunners and at the water a single shot shotgun will be provided with the correct Poppers.
AKC Hunt test, you will carry a gun but there are designated gunners also, you will swing on the bird only.
Have a good time.
Rick

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

A 20 guage will do very well as a gun for hunting and training, as well as for your child. You can use it to gun in call backs in AKC as well. Can't use it when handling a dog under judgement. For that you need a blank pistol.

The 20 is a great all around gun. You can use it for turkeys and deer too.

Doug

[dan v]

That was the OP thought on the 20 gauge for an all around gun for everything including his kid. Let's get this right.

Love my Beretta 686 Onyx 20g...it is my preferred shotgun of choice, by a wide margin.

[Francois P vd Walt]

For normal hunting a 20ga will do the same as a 12ga with less recoil, ideal for kids and ladies. Maybe a bit light for bigger waterfowl, and most trials they have gunners to make things safe and even. EP trials they make use of pips or a device that works with a 209 primer, that looks like the real deal.

[ElhewPointer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Due-PgeFKDY

[ymepointer]

I have a little single shot 4:10 and an H&R cap gun....Af major circuit trials used to use the 4.10's until the early 2000's and then gradually switched to pop guns I believe, but on the west coast they have used pop guns since the early 90's IIRC. I recall watching Brad Harters National video in 99 when Whippoorwill Wildcard won and the only handler I recall having a pistol was Lauri Steinshaour who was the first lady to ever handle a dog at the nats....Redrock Shadow I believe was her dog..but I am old and not positive Use the cap gun if you can, much easier to carry than a 4.10

As far as hunting goes I prefer a 20 guage for everything except ducks geees and turkey

[Grousewing]

I use a semi auto 20ga for both NSTRA trials and grouse hunting. IMO a semi auto is a must have for NSTRA trials. Years ago I used a over and under 12ga for NSTRA trials and a few times missed the bird on the second shot, now I almost never give up a retrieve opportunity.

[bigdaddy]

I looked at the premiums for a couple of loacl trials ad most said "no open barrel guns", so it looks like I am getting a blank pistol.

Is there any reason not to get one that uses .209 primers?

I like the low cost of those blanks, plus I will get one of those inserts and can train my dogs with the 20 gauge.

Thanks!!