Setter vs Brittany?

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Remember breeding to a standard keeps the breed with in certain physical requirement, and the good breeder, breeds to impove the breed not just produce a winner in the show ring or the field. Breed standard requirements define a dog breed, in reality if an individual dog does not meet breed standard, it does not represent the breeds physical requirements. What has happend here in the USA is that the requirement for breed standard has taken a back seat to money & winning, especially in the field. Now this can be both good and bad, depending on your individual view point. Here the problem starts, if the organizations holding these competitions would inforce
the breed standard qualifications, everyone would be competing on the same level with animals that meet the actual breed standards.
However if they do not care, which most do not today, DNA testing is they only alternative, when doing actual breed identification.
RGD/Dave

[Chukar12]

DNA only proves parentage through allele matches. Breed identification is an imperfect science based on marker patterns...it will take time and data collection to make it viable

...and you think breeding for the field has taken a greater toll...? weims and setters, aren't you an expert on these breeds?

[ezzy333]

Gentlemen,
They have been breeding long legged Brits in Texas for many many years now, this is what happens when the breed standard criterias are removed from entry qualifications, course the Small Setters have been getting away with it for years. You can't bitch about a long legged Brit, unless you bitch about a Small English Setter, the quaifications must be breed universal. What is good for one is good for all. The Big Brit has as much right to qualify as a small English Setter. If AKC inforced the breed standard qualification, none of this would have happened.
RGD/Dave

It's not up to AKC to enforce the rules. Look in a mirror and you will see the person responsible. A complete lack of integrity all for the purpose of winning. Texas has no claim to long legged Britts that I know of. We have large over standard Brits through out the country. I do think it is getting better than it was but the problem is once you use one we will reap the benefits for years to come. I have two rather small Britts but the female has some over sized field dogs on her sires side that go back to some of the Smith dogs and even though it is 2 and 3 generations back they produced the male I kept that ended up over size and 2 other males that are borderline. All are really good dogs, My pup was run once ina puppy trial with 110 dogs entered and I think 14 or so pups and he placed 4th with no training. Though he may have been the best one I have ever had he ended up over sized so has been neutered and will spend his life in a great hunting home as did the others. Not the worse thing in the world but so unnecessary if people would just stick with the rules.

Ezzy

[hi-tailyn]

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Buckeye_V wrote:
Purely joking, but isn't a britt a setter with a docked tail who can't run like a setter?     


Purely a observation. When have Britts become considerably larger than male GSP and Pointers? The picture of the final 4 at AKC Nationals looks odd.

Slight difference in feet, but not too much for 2 inches difference. GSP is 24+ at shoulders. :roll:

[bb560m]

Code: Select all

Buckeye_V wrote:
Purely joking, but isn't a britt a setter with a docked tail who can't run like a setter?     


Purely a observation. When have Britts become considerably larger than male GSP and Pointers? The picture of the final 4 at AKC Nationals looks odd.

Slight difference in feet, but not too much for 2 inches difference. GSP is 24+ at shoulders. :roll:

AKC: "Any Brittany measuring under 17.5 inches or over 20.5 inches shall be disqualified from dog show competition."


26" Brittany more or less - only off by 30% of the max for the standard.

[Chukar12]

That dog is over standard but nowhere near 26 inches at the shoulder...maybe 22.5 or 23

[hi-tailyn]

I just posted this in the AKC Gun Dog Championship Events posting. I think it relates to this topic.

"I think it is a testament to how hard it is to judge a event like this. Taking all the pointing breeds and having them compete against each other on the same grounds. How do you define the guidelines for the event. Each breed runs and hunts a different way and range. Does it ultimately come down to them all trying to equal the pointer?

From what I heard. The pointer is run in gun dog/shooting dog stakes. The GSP's run in gun dog/shooting dog/all age stakes. The Brittany just ran and placed in the All Age Nationals at Booneville this year. I think all the 2nd series dogs were the same for their breed. shooting dog Pointer, shooting dog GSP, all age Brittany.

Is this event different on these grounds? Were we looking to equal what the All Age pointers do? That has been a problem with our GSP's for years. I think it may be the same for each breed. Trying to compete with the next more athletic breed.

I know I run my GSP's in the all age stakes at Brittany trials when I can. Most Brittany all age stakes are closed to outside breeds. Any maybe that's the way to do it. So they remain true to their breed and standard and not be like another breed."

[PntrRookie]

Slight difference in feet, but not too much for 2 inches difference. GSP is 24+ at shoulders. :roll:

I agree the Brit looks a bit tall and agree with many of the responses above. Look at the people behind the dogs...as you move right to left their chest areas seem to consistently get smaller. I also think what you are seeing is a camera lens that is a bit distorted the left side of the photo...kinda like a fish lens. Not much, but to a designer's eye, it seems a bit off.

[jetjockey]

Man.. Some of you guys just can't get over this can you. That dog is NOT that big. As far as him being an AA dog, sure, he is the RU NC. But he also won the American Brittany Club Gun Dog Championship in 2010. He ran as a GD just a month and and a half before his first RU NC All Age run. He has 6 GD placements and 8 AA placements. Most of you know this, but for those who don't, many trial dogs adjust to the grounds they are run on! Put them in the prairies and they go huge, take them someplace like Ames and you can cut their range down a lot. BTW.. I heard the AF guys will sometimes road a dog before their runs at the AF Nationals to slow them down and keep them in range. Not sure if thats true or not, but it wouldn't suprise me considering how tight Ames is.

I don't have a picture of the brit standing next to my dog, but I do have a picture of my dog standing next to 2 different brits that are almost exactly the same size as him. 1st dog in the top picture is my dog. Then you can see her standing next to the two dogs that are almost identicle in size to the brit who took 4th at the AKC GDNC. He is from the same sire that sired dogs 1 and 2 in the second picture, and pretty much the exact same size. I think dog 1 might actually be a bit bigger.

[Carolina Gundogs]

Jetjockey, I agree with you. The dog in question is not a big dog at all. I've seen him before in person and nothing stands out making him look abnormally big compared to other dogs. However, this makes me wonder, should we all be concerned that the smaller dogs in the picture may have been the result of an ancestry being crossed with a Brittany to make the breed more competitive? If size is the indicator, it can make you wonder.

[jetjockey]

BTW T.S.. Hopefully dog #2 and dog #3 make perfectly standard size show quaility brits when we breed them in about a year. I don't want to be accused of breeding dogs outside the "standard" just to win trials! :roll: Oh ya, and heaven forbid they turn out white!

[hi-tailyn]

However, this makes me wonder, should we all be concerned that the smaller dogs in the picture may have been the result of an ancestry being crossed with a Brittany to make the breed more competitive? If size is the indicator, it can make you wonder.

That would only happen depending on what pointer the brittany was crossed with. Just kidding

What was stated earlier, it probably is lens distortion from angle they took picture.

[ezzy333]

We can all voice our opinion which is nice but I will bet most anything any of you want to bet that you can not make the dog fit into the standard and that is what I said. And I stick by it. You can breed to what you want just as a few have been doing for years. But I would be interested in why you feel it necessary to do it and even defend a dog that I think everyone knows is oversize. I am not suggesting that they take the dog out and shoot it but when there are just as good of dogs that are within the standard what is the motivation if it isn't to win on the trial circuit?

Ezzy

[Birddawg]

Guys, i mentioned this before. Just look at the position of the persons forward knee who is holding the Britt. I actually got a tape measure and measured my knee in that position. With my knee up, and slightly forward my ankle, the top of my knee measured 20.5 inches, the max for the standard at the top most point of the shoulder. I dont think that Britt is big at all. We have all seen small gsp's and ep's. Hey, just sayin.
Try it yourself. Take your own measurments. You cant tell anything by photoshoping some straight lines across the pic.

[gotpointers]

Breed specific events are just an admittance that they can't compete with the pointers and setters.

[ezzy333]

Breed specific events are just an admittance that they can't compete with the pointers and setters.

Thank God! I don't want a pointer or a setter. And of course the opposite is just as true. The pointer and setter can't compete with the Britt and I doubt if there are any that want to. The breeds all have their strengths and weaknesses, in other words differences, and that is a good thing and not a bad one. We do not need 4 or 5 breeds that excel in the south hunting quail on the plantations. There is not another breed in the world that will equal the Pointer in that setting. But I would much rather have the Britt or GSP in the pheasant fields of the northern mid-west and Canada. I would sooner have the setter in the northern Grouse coverts than a pointer and a wirehair over the others when hunting ducks in the morning and upland birds in the afternoon.

Every breed has a purpose and an area that they excel in and it is a wonderful situation we find our selves in today because someone in the past saw a niche that could be filled better than the breeds of the day were able to do. And the more recent history shows that many have continued that development and we have many breeds with their own attributes in our world. Lets hope we are smart enough to continue to develop all of them to perform in their individual specialities so that our children and grand children will have the immense diversity available to them that was passed down to us by the people of the past.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

You nailed it Al. Very well said!!

Charlie

[jetjockey]

Ezzy... I have to admit. That made me laugh a little. The reason everyone hunts EP's and Setters in the south isn't because they are necessarily the best dog for the job, its because of tradition. Thats they way its been done for over 100 years, and it aint going to change! Its the same reason why most people, especially at the nicer plantations, all hunt with SxS's. Its not because a SxS is better for the job, heck, most people shoot O/U's or pumps and semis better. Its because thats the way its been done for 100+ years. Heck, it could be argued that for a foot hunter with a single dog, a dog with more of a natural retrieve like a brit or GSP would be a better dog to hunt with down here to hunt quail so you don't lose cripples. A lot of plantations use retrieving breeds to flush, and to retrieve dead birds after they are shot. An EP that doesn't retrieve is going to leave you losing a lot of birds. And lets face it, naturally, EP's don't retrieve naturally like a Brit or GSP. Its sad when someone stereo types a breed as to what they are "supposed" to be, instead of what they are capable of. We should alwasy be striving to get a better dog, not resting on our laurels.

I absolutely hate the fact that many people are not trying to improve the breed. All they want is a 50-75 yard hunting dog that weighs 35 lbs. We have had that ever since Brits came to this country. How does breeding dogs like that help improve the breed? IMO, we need to be breeding for longer legged dogs that can run faster, further, with more stamina, and more of a natural retrieve. Dogs who take to training very easily and prove they can handle well. Dogs who can be brought in, but are perfectly happy ranging as well. We have had Brits in my family for over 30 years. I guarantee the brits I grew up with can't hang with the brits my family has now. Not even close! Yet the brits of today still have the same great personalities that made me fall in love with the breed 30 years ago. There's absolutely nothing wrong with breeding dogs to get the natural soft disposition of a brit, their ability to be great house pets, and their naturally pleasing personalities. As well as having dogs who can run like a pointer, retrieve like a lab, and swim like a fish. IMO thats what we should be striving for. The perfect hunting dog and family pet. When size becomes more important then hunting ability, then brits will go the way of the cocker, springer, golden, etc. I don't want a slow short legged dog who only ranges out to 50 or 75 yards and makes a mediocre pheasant dog but fits the breed standard perfectly. I grew up with those, and while I loved them, they aren't nearly the brits that we have today. I want a dog that can do everything well, not a dog who does one thing mediocre. If I wanted a dog just for pheasants, Id have a springer. There are very few brits in the world that can hang with a good field bred springer for all season pheasant hunting. BTW... I won't put you on the list for puppies when we have them. Im pretty sure they won't be what your looking for!..

[ezzy333]

Jet, well said. But maybe we should look at the standard of the Brittany and what it says, I believe you might find that the Britt should be a long legged medium sized dog that because of the longer legs the dog should be square, as long from the front of the shoulders to the rear of the dog as it is tall at the withers. That's longer legged than most sporting breeds as they are all longer than tall.

As I am sure you know, you can not have any one animal that is best in all of the categories you mentioned because it takes special physical structure to do those jobs. You have probably noticed that hippos can not reach the leaves on the trees as well as an elephant though they are close in size. Neither of them can run as fast as a cheetah or climb trees as well as a leopard. Remember the old adage that form follows function which is probably true but if it is then when you need to change the form of any breed you are asking the dog to do something it was not intended to do. Britts were not intended to be big ranging dogs, they were not intended to be able to fight with a Rottie, or be able to swim in the cold rough water that a lab can.They were intended to be a medium sized dog that handles easily, be a good family dog, and have the ability to find birds and point them. They were intended to have enough coat to handle the cold weather and hunt the heavy cover while not having too much or too fine a coat that collects burrs easily. They were bred to have an ear that tipped down to protect the inner ear from collecting a lot of debris and an eye that had tight eyelids and tight underneath to prevent weed seeds from lodging in under those lids. And they were bred to not have loose lips that cause drooling and causes feathers to stick in the mouth when retrieving. A tight foot and a short tail also aid in their intended purpose. Now look at the standard of the other breeds and you will find they have specific reasons for their physical attributes as well. But you will see they are all different as the breeds where created for different purposes and not to just duplicate what every other breed can do.

I will work as hard to improve the Britts in each area you mentioned as long as we do not have to change the dog to where it is no longer a Britt to do it. If they have to be bigger or faster or different color than a Britt has been then I will sell the Britt and buy that wonderful Setter that does all of the things that I like. When I find my Chevy Volt wont haul the things I need moved I am going to trade it in on a pickup and not try to remodel the Volt. Might go the opposite way if I need something more economical. That way we will continue to have both vehicles rather than try to remodel them to be the same vehicle.

Ezzy

[jcbuttry8]

I love this conversation. Who gives a rat's a$$ if it was bred to something else. Everyone has been doing it for years. The only reason it is becoming a concern these days is because DNA testing. I have been around brit's since I was 5. My father and grandfather had them well before I was a twinkle in my old man's eye. I have never seen a brit like the one's I see now winning AA events in AKC. So, if the breed wasn't there 31 years ago and from what I have gathered it really started about 15 years ago ruffly. Then how did the brit just magically start running and winning AA's compared to the dogs that I saw growing up?? I'm guessing the same way we magically started seeing silver Labs!! Yeah the GSP was bred to a pointer. The pointer was bred to a setter. There were traits that each held that the other needed or the breeder wanted. You see tri color pointers. Not real natural and people have been caught doing some funny things in the name of winning.

If you really got down to the nitty gritty you would find that most of the blood lines that we see as great to get a pup from more than likely have a few skeletons in the closet. Maybe not all but most will that we never know about. What is in the past is in the past. The only way we can change that is to stick with the standards that have been set before us and continue on. Unfortunate as it is fortunate, this is a free country. You can do as you please. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle breeding. The spectrum runs from puppy mill to a moral breeder who goes through every possible test and conformation and test to make sure that his pup's meet every possible standard. We will all fall into this spectrum. It is up to each of us to do what is necessary to continue on the breed we choose to raise. There is way to much kennel blindness going on today. There are to many dogs being bred for the wrong reason. So, before you breed your dog for whatever reason, just make sure you have covered all the bases and that you are doing right by your dog and the breed that has been around for many generations. Just remember, there are people out there that will be buying your pups and putting faith in you to provide them a future hunting partner/nstra candidate/field trialer winner/ champion. Step up to the plate and do it right. There are plenty out there that are doing it wrong and have been doing that way for years.

JM2C,

Joe

[gotpointers]

Breed specific events are just an admittance that they can't compete with the pointers and setters.

Thank God! I don't want a pointer or a setter. And of course the opposite is just as true. The pointer and setter can't compete with the Britt and I doubt if there are any that want to. The breeds all have their strengths and weaknesses, in other words differences, and that is a good thing and not a bad one. We do not need 4 or 5 breeds that excel in the south hunting quail on the plantations. There is not another breed in the world that will equal the Pointer in that setting. But I would much rather have the Britt or GSP in the pheasant fields of the northern mid-west and Canada. I would sooner have the setter in the northern Grouse coverts than a pointer and a wirehair over the others when hunting ducks in the morning and upland birds in the afternoon.

Every breed has a purpose and an area that they excel in and it is a wonderful situation we find our selves in today because someone in the past saw a niche that could be filled better than the breeds of the day were able to do. And the more recent history shows that many have continued that development and we have many breeds with their own attributes in our world. Lets hope we are smart enough to continue to develop all of them to perform in their individual specialities so that our children and grand children will have the immense diversity available to them that was passed down to us by the people of the past.

Ezzy

Merely suggesting let em run and see what happens. Don't have a marathon limited to only fat people with glasses who are lactose intolerant. I am glad that people have diffrent tastes and likes and dislikes, the wild quail population is in trouble as it is. Imagine how bad it would be if everyone had a pointer!

[ezzy333]

Imagine how bad it would be if everyone had a pointer!

Never happen. We already have 4 or 5 popular breeds that are different and people are still importing dog and cross breeding because we don't have enough to fill there needs. Pointers are just one of many great breeds and may it stay that way. I agree, It is fun to line them up and let them hunt. Ezzy

[gotpointers]

Imagine how bad it would be if everyone had a pointer!

Never happen. We already have 4 or 5 popular breeds that are different and people are still importing dog and cross breeding because we don't have enough to fill there needs. Pointers are just one of many great breeds and may it stay that way. I agree, It is fun to line them up and let them hunt. Ezzy

I hear you just at my age and situation i need a fast moving big running dog. I am also frustrated that i have people waiting in line for pups from my german longhairs. and also a bunch of locals that want pups from the german shorthairs that i inherited but don't want. I try to show them a EP and they want nothing to do with a "crazy dog"