Ames events?

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:02 pm

What do you guys think is going on at Ames with all the unproductive points (false points). Do you think we are breeding dogs with not enough nose or is our training methods not allowing dogs to learn how to point birds not just scent? The national had some dogs with 5 or 6 finds but the AKC event has yet to have a dog more than a single find. Just a point but the AKC is not releasing birds while rumor has it that the national did. The AKC reporter keeps mentioning that the birds are running out from under points but I don't see anyway that could happen and the dog not be able to relocate and find them. Just a little bored tonight and thought this might be a good conversation.

Brian

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:16 pm

Maybe it takes 3 hours to find them.

Someone wrote that the birds get savey to the gallery and can be moving out on the approach.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:32 pm

You would think these dogs could relocate and find the birds if the birds ran out from under them. If these dogs can't pen a covey of quail they would go crazy on the grouse up here in east TN, Roadrunner has nothing on these grouse. Maybe the AKC needs to dump about 500 birds out the weekend before they run!

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:41 pm

A couple thousand released before the event would also help. Then not being pressured by people also helps. Three hours and 5 covey finds sounds like what some people do on foot and wild birds.... I don't think its anything other than a poor choice of venue for AKC... It's been hinted at many of times that its a pointer trial ground. You would think they will wash the soil after the shorthairs, wirehairs, vizsla, and weims run on it.

If you want a wild bird trial then go where there are wild birds not that half arse stuff. The volunteers are doing a great job but the grounds aren't ment for an AKC trial. Someone got in way over thier head and didn't plan accordingly. Maybe a month break between trials to reduce pressure before running over a hundred dogs on the grounds? Releasing a thousand birds for every 40 - 50 dogs??

BTW a dog can point a grouse and they will still be pointing it when it lands 20 feet up in the tree... Not too hard.

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:46 pm

I know very little about this type of trial but have heard that bird finds don't win these trials. I know a guy that is big in NSTRA trials that has tried the horseback game with a dog he has. I think he ran good but the way it was explained to me he found too many birds. I guess he had the most bird finds but didn't place. Seems kind of weird to me but I don't know the game. Being from a hunting background not really a trial background it doen't make sense to me. I am from the school of if a dog can't find the birds ya better get one that can.
I am going to try to get to some of these type of trials as I am curious how they work. I know a few people that run some horse back trials but I haven't made it to one yet. I don't know that this would the type I would like to compete in but would still like to learn more about them. I think we need to support each other no matter what game we play or even if we are just hunters. I have heard of a few places in Ohio that quit holding trials. WE need to rally together to keep our sport thriving.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:58 pm

BTW a dog can point a grouse and they will still be pointing it when it lands 20 feet up in the tree... Not too hard.

I don't know where you are hunting but our ruffs don't do that.

I also don't understand why they ran back to back with the field guys. 3 hours and 5 finds doesn't sound to impressive either so the AF guys must of had a hard time also. My main question is why so many unproductive points?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:19 pm

There are a lot of non-prod points. I have seen some where people just go to obvious cover, slow, afraid the dog will break so they are preoccupied. I would be running back and see if anything comes up. Care less if the dog is broke then stop worrying and flush the bird. That's just me though.

The grouse in Colorado flush just like that.... I see a lot when I'm packing in hunting for elk.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:35 am

They blamed many of the unproductives on rabbits, some suggested running the beagle events before the birddogs. The NM grouse flew to the top of the nearest.tree. also i didn't like messing up the archery elk hunters. Game and fish was stupid enough to have september grouse and archery together. Found a nice elk shed though while i was out there though.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:22 pm

Do the AKC dogs dig in to cover to find birds ?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:28 pm

volraider wrote:
BTW a dog can point a grouse and they will still be pointing it when it lands 20 feet up in the tree... Not too hard.
I don't know where you are hunting but our ruffs don't do that.

I also don't understand why they ran back to back with the field guys. 3 hours and 5 finds doesn't sound to impressive either so the AF guys must of had a hard time also. My main question is why so many unproductive points?

What difference does it make that they started a couple days after the Am. Fld NC was? The American Field Ch has a morning brace and an afternoon brace, each being 3 hours. The AKC runs 3 am and 3 pm braces, each being 1 hour. So there is exactly the same amount of traffic per day on each course.

Somebody here, Nella I think, did some math...and found out that the FDSB dogs average 1.25 finds/hour.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:26 pm

I am currently at the AKC Gun Dog Championship. I arrived last Monday in the afternoon. I do not ride a horse so all that I have seen personally has been at the breakaways or small portions of the course as the brace makes a road transition from one side to the other and I have not seen all braces. I have yet to meet anyone here that has ridden the braces that says the birds are not out there. They have been seen by people in the gallery near where a dog has been moved on after a non-productive. They have been seen when a dog was found on point deep in cover after a tracker was used to locate a missing dog. And of course, some dogs have successfully found and handled birds during their brace. That being said here are some observations. These observations involve three areas, birds, training, and trial environment.
First are few observations about the birds. The smell of the bird is different. This is not your typical AKC or American Field event. Pen raised birds are not being planted every brace. These birds do not stink like your typical trial birds in that they do not have the smell of bird sh.. all over them from being confined in cages until taken out and released. They do not have the smell from being confined in a bird bag carried around on a horse or quad. They do not have the smell of human handling on them (I do not think the practice of wearing gloves does anything to prevent human scent on the bird). The behavior of the bird is different. Pen raised birds do not react to humans like wild birds. Humans feed pen raised birds. Wild birds find their own food or do not survive. A portion of the dogs entered have probably spent most of the lives trained on nothing but pen raised birds. The birds on the course have been around long enough to prove that they are survivors. They have survived the multitude of predators that are present on the grounds. They have learned to move away from unnatural sounds. Just like all the other wild birds. The people who hunt wild pheasants will tell you all kinds of stories about what happens if you make too much noise. Grouse hunters will tell you similar stories. Think about it. Your typical weekend trial has handlers blowing whistles or vocal commands to get their dog to move forward or turn when they want. When the dog is out of sight they are “singing” to their dogs to let them know where they are. If you were to conduct your wild bird hunt in the same manner what do you think your success rate would be. Because these birds have been out and survived predators they have learned to be quicker to flight (walking or flying).
Second a few observations on training. A goodly portion of training a gun dog involves patterning. The dog is trained to run edges or to objectives. This is done by planting birds along the edge of a line or objective. We as trainers try to ensure the success of the training lesson by having the wind bring the scent of the bird out to where the dog encounters it when running the edge or once at an objective. The result is a dog that runs lines or goes to objectives but never digs into the cover. It is also not clear that the dog has learned to use the direction of the wind to determine which edge of a field to run. Those dogs will run an edge whether the wind is coming from the cover into the open or from the open into the cover. If birds are found on an edge at this event it is because of pure chance and not because they were planted there. Another thing is that some dogs have learned (intentional or unintentional) to run a course because horses and people scent exist along the course. If no trail exists they are lost. Since no course is used more than once a day, at best there is a horse trail 24 hours old. A final thought on training is that some dogs have been allowed to move closer to the bird after they have detected scent. With pen raised birds they get away with it and wild birds they do not. Not all dogs at this event have been lucky enough to hunt a lot of wild birds and are used to overly skittish birds.
Last is the environment of the trial here at Ames. Some of the course involves road crossings. These are places where the course necks down to cross the road and expands on the other side of the road. This ends up as a distraction to the dog in the sense that the handler has to gather up the dog to get it through the crossing. Also with all the observers standing around it results in breaking the hour stake into several mini stakes with their associated break away. The dogs tend to mill around with all the people as though it might be the end of the brace. This event also attracts a large number of riders in the gallery with associated level of voice chatter.
Put all of these things together when you read things on the forum and you realize that these dogs are not doing too badly for the circumstances under which they are being run. When the dog is found standing and moved on with a nonproductive. Was it a stop to flush situation or unseen bump situation? Did the bird or birds move to deeper cover because of the noise of the approaching handler or gallery? Did the birds just melt into the cover because the handler was not diligent enough or aggressive enough in trying to find the bird before deciding to move the dog on? Bottom line is I think this is a great event and should be repeated in the future. I do think if held here again in the future it will result in changing some of the training methods used in getting dogs ready for this event.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:48 pm

Nice write up ken.

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:09 pm

You mean there is a difference between a field trial dog and a hunting dog

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:39 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:You mean there is a difference between a field trial dog and a hunting dog

No there is NO difference between a field trial dog and a hunting dog. The dogs are exactly the same.

How they are trained can be very different, however.

RayG

Retiredbirddogman · Post by **Retiredbirddogman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:09 pm

I was one of two judges at a trial this past weekend. The trial was held on 2,500 acres of land on the Cumberland Plateau, in Tn. There have been approximately 30 hunts on this private land this year. The course was continuous and the dogs had to hunt for the birds, as no handler knew the course because it was not marked. Just follow directions from the person who manages the land and get your dog to go with you. The braces were 45 minutes. Mostly Setters and Pointers. It was Friday when the broke stakes were run, stormy and wet. Plenty of bird work all day long. Coveys and singles. On Saturday the derbies ran and I believe only one brace had bird work, even though birds were seen several times. I can say that it was great to see the dogs work in that kind of cover. It was very much like taking your great trial dogs wild bird hunting.
No horses were allowed on the grounds. Walking stake, but these dogs could have run horse back shooting dog very easy.
I am posting this just because the trial was held in Tn. this past weekend with similar quality dogs. Many of these dogs are Champions and some run cover dog trials.
It was a pleasure to watch great dogs in this great environment.

Retiredbirddogman · Post by **Retiredbirddogman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:11 pm

Sorry - the way I wrote my comments is miss- leading. There were three broke stake judges on Friday and two fine judges from Atlanta on Saturday. I want to give credit where it is due. It was a great trial that Frank Hanwright and his wife, Kelly, hosted. Special thanks to Doyle for letting us enjoy the grounds.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:17 pm

Retiredbirddogman wrote:I was one of two judges at a trial this past weekend. The trial was held on 2,500 acres of land on the Cumberland Plateau, in Tn. There have been approximately 30 hunts on this private land this year. The course was continuous and the dogs had to hunt for the birds, as no handler knew the course because it was not marked. Just follow directions from the person who manages the land and get your dog to go with you. The braces were 45 minutes. Mostly Setters and Pointers. It was Friday when the broke stakes were run, stormy and wet. Plenty of bird work all day long. Coveys and singles. On Saturday the derbies ran and I believe only one brace had bird work, even though birds were seen several times. I can say that it was great to see the dogs work in that kind of cover. It was very much like taking your great trial dogs wild bird hunting.
No horses were allowed on the grounds. Walking stake, but these dogs could have run horse back shooting dog very easy.
I am posting this just because the trial was held in Tn. this past weekend with similar quality dogs. Many of these dogs are Champions and some run cover dog trials.
It was a pleasure to watch great dogs in this great environment.

Was this in Spencer Tn? If so most winners where coverdogs right? Thanks

Retiredbirddogman · Post by **Retiredbirddogman** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:05 pm

That is correct. Most of the dogs entered were cover dogs, but they ran a very nice race in open country.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:34 pm

So far it's been a lot of the luck of the draw, what course you get to run. There are certain courses that are producing covey finds almost daily, other courses that haven't produced any.
Yesterday, we while driving the road, we saw several coyotes perusing the area. There has also been some really horrible weather with storms, hail, and severe cold fronts moving in and out of the area. And mud.... a lot of mud!
Some dogs are having a hard time adapting to the cover, others having a hard time with all the twists and turns. Some dog are doing a wonderful job and getting it done.
Still lots of dogs to go.

But, today we went out to lunch at a little cafe in Grand Junction. There were lots of older locals just back from Church finishing up their lunches. One older woman stopped at our table and thanked us Bird Dog Folks for coming to their little town. She didn't have a dog, never did but they just love the field trialers! The locals are treating like royalty... how unusual is that?
Fuzz

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:33 pm

That's a sportin woman Fuzz,

There was an elderly lady in eastern washington who owned 16 sections acrossed the highway from the famed Anderson Ranch.She loved birddogs of every kind and would allow you to hunt her ground on one condition...............She had to see and pet your birddogs.

fuzznut wrote:So far it's been a lot of the luck of the draw, what course you get to run. There are certain courses that are producing covey finds almost daily, other courses that haven't produced any.
Yesterday, we while driving the road, we saw several coyotes perusing the area. There has also been some really horrible weather with storms, hail, and severe cold fronts moving in and out of the area. And mud.... a lot of mud!
Some dogs are having a hard time adapting to the cover, others having a hard time with all the twists and turns. Some dog are doing a wonderful job and getting it done.
Still lots of dogs to go.

But, today we went out to lunch at a little cafe in Grand Junction. There were lots of older locals just back from Church finishing up their lunches. One older woman stopped at our table and thanked us Bird Dog Folks for coming to their little town. She didn't have a dog, never did but they just love the field trialers! The locals are treating like royalty... how unusual is that?
Fuzz

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:30 am

(But, today we went out to lunch at a little cafe in Grand Junction. There were lots of older locals just back from Church finishing up their lunches. One older woman stopped at our table and thanked us Bird Dog Folks for coming to their little town. She didn't have a dog, never did but they just love the field trialers! The locals are treating like royalty... how unusual is that?
Fuzz[/quote]

I drove out to the east end of Tennsesse from NM to pick up a bunch of dogs a couple of months ago. I liked it out there, even peoples driving was amazing to me. They don't speed up to block you out, they actually slow down to let you in!

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:20 am

When you run in that part of the country it is different than a lot of people are use to running in, that may be part of the issue. The other is quail are not released each morning by some yahoo that has no idea what they are doing, they are released and well before the season starts and act somewhat more like wild birds. When you add the heavy cover in parts of the course, the birds early release, the rabbit population and not to forget turtles. Thats right for some reason those red eared slider turtles smell like quail and dogs will point them and I always have a tough time getting them to fly.

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:23 am

Ken Lynch wrote:I am currently at the AKC Gun Dog Championship. I arrived last Monday in the afternoon. I do not ride a horse so all that I have seen personally has been at the breakaways or small portions of the course as the brace makes a road transition from one side to the other and I have not seen all braces. I have yet to meet anyone here that has ridden the braces that says the birds are not out there. They have been seen by people in the gallery near where a dog has been moved on after a non-productive. They have been seen when a dog was found on point deep in cover after a tracker was used to locate a missing dog. And of course, some dogs have successfully found and handled birds during their brace. That being said here are some observations. These observations involve three areas, birds, training, and trial environment.
First are few observations about the birds. The smell of the bird is different. This is not your typical AKC or American Field event. Pen raised birds are not being planted every brace. These birds do not stink like your typical trial birds in that they do not have the smell of bird sh.. all over them from being confined in cages until taken out and released. They do not have the smell from being confined in a bird bag carried around on a horse or quad. They do not have the smell of human handling on them (I do not think the practice of wearing gloves does anything to prevent human scent on the bird). The behavior of the bird is different. Pen raised birds do not react to humans like wild birds. Humans feed pen raised birds. Wild birds find their own food or do not survive. A portion of the dogs entered have probably spent most of the lives trained on nothing but pen raised birds. The birds on the course have been around long enough to prove that they are survivors. They have survived the multitude of predators that are present on the grounds. They have learned to move away from unnatural sounds. Just like all the other wild birds. The people who hunt wild pheasants will tell you all kinds of stories about what happens if you make too much noise. Grouse hunters will tell you similar stories. Think about it. Your typical weekend trial has handlers blowing whistles or vocal commands to get their dog to move forward or turn when they want. When the dog is out of sight they are “singing” to their dogs to let them know where they are. If you were to conduct your wild bird hunt in the same manner what do you think your success rate would be. Because these birds have been out and survived predators they have learned to be quicker to flight (walking or flying).
Second a few observations on training. A goodly portion of training a gun dog involves patterning. The dog is trained to run edges or to objectives. This is done by planting birds along the edge of a line or objective. We as trainers try to ensure the success of the training lesson by having the wind bring the scent of the bird out to where the dog encounters it when running the edge or once at an objective. The result is a dog that runs lines or goes to objectives but never digs into the cover. It is also not clear that the dog has learned to use the direction of the wind to determine which edge of a field to run. Those dogs will run an edge whether the wind is coming from the cover into the open or from the open into the cover. If birds are found on an edge at this event it is because of pure chance and not because they were planted there. Another thing is that some dogs have learned (intentional or unintentional) to run a course because horses and people scent exist along the course. If no trail exists they are lost. Since no course is used more than once a day, at best there is a horse trail 24 hours old. A final thought on training is that some dogs have been allowed to move closer to the bird after they have detected scent. With pen raised birds they get away with it and wild birds they do not. Not all dogs at this event have been lucky enough to hunt a lot of wild birds and are used to overly skittish birds.
Last is the environment of the trial here at Ames. Some of the course involves road crossings. These are places where the course necks down to cross the road and expands on the other side of the road. This ends up as a distraction to the dog in the sense that the handler has to gather up the dog to get it through the crossing. Also with all the observers standing around it results in breaking the hour stake into several mini stakes with their associated break away. The dogs tend to mill around with all the people as though it might be the end of the brace. This event also attracts a large number of riders in the gallery with associated level of voice chatter.
Put all of these things together when you read things on the forum and you realize that these dogs are not doing too badly for the circumstances under which they are being run. When the dog is found standing and moved on with a nonproductive. Was it a stop to flush situation or unseen bump situation? Did the bird or birds move to deeper cover because of the noise of the approaching handler or gallery? Did the birds just melt into the cover because the handler was not diligent enough or aggressive enough in trying to find the bird before deciding to move the dog on? Bottom line is I think this is a great event and should be repeated in the future. I do think if held here again in the future it will result in changing some of the training methods used in getting dogs ready for this event.

I don't know, Ken. I am pretty new to this and have not (yet) been to an AKC trial, only AFTCA, but I can't see why a judge would have any use for a dog that won't dive into cover, needs help to make a crossing or mills around groups of people instead of hunting. My dog, once cut loose, will swim a 50ft wide river to dive into cover just on the off chance there is a bird there, and he isn't even whoa broke yet. I had the whole family standing around watching him work some quail a couple of weeks ago and he had no idea they were even there. Isn't that the whole point, to find quality dogs?

Maybe it's not the grounds, maybe it's the dogs.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:34 am

And once you train a dog and compete with then you will have a better understanding of what it is they do and how they do it. It's a whole different ball game then having a dog that will break brush and hunt. You have to have a fully trained dog with a finished and polished performance.

BTW some people might handle the dog and make it come out of cover before they can't find it. It's not like hunting where you can just go back and comb the the area to find a dog and take up 10 min while still being in contention.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:37 am

haven't seen a flying turtle ..... yet!

We had dinner last night at the Bird Dog museum, very cool place. So much history, beautiful artwork and lots of old friends photos on the walls - Denes Burjan, John Frayne, great dog men and I miss them.

Met Nick who was the scout for the past couple of years National Champions (The Pointers), he tells great stories and knows this place like the back of his hand. A colorful character to be sure. John Rex Gate's wife is here, and many of the other well known AF pointer guys have come by to wish us all luck.

For those who didn't make the trip to Ames, you have missed a wonderful experience.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:09 am

Seriously Fuzz.. Your killing me!!! I have to work until Wedensday and then Im making the 6 hour drive straight from work. Probably sleep in the back seat of my truck since I won't roll in till probably 12 or 1 AM. I cant wait to watch the morning braces and see the course. If you keep posting about how great it is Im going to end up with a cold tomorrow!

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:52 am

haven't seen a flying turtle ..... yet!

I got this here blue rock thrower....

Thanks Ken for the information, as a rookie it will help in the training. I understand this wild bird info and agree. The pen raised I used Saturday sure must have smelled she found every one I planted.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:09 am

Forgive my laziness and that I am at work. Are these prereleased bird trials. Or are they wild trials. They are not planted correct?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:27 am

Prereleased with some hold over...

For an additional read sounds like a lot of birds are released for the "wild bird" pointer trials. Sounds like more birds than any weekend AKC event even if multiplied by 10.

http://www.amesplantation.org/forestry/ ... search.asp

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:43 am

Someone is a little bitter. hahaha

ultracarry wrote:Prereleased with some hold over...

For an additional read sounds like a lot of birds are released for the "wild bird" pointer trials. Sounds like more birds than any weekend AKC event even if multiplied by 10.

http://www.amesplantation.org/forestry/ ... search.asp

You need to get your head out of the sand. The pointer people don't call The National Championship a "wild bird" trial. We have those in other parts of the country.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:43 am

I have never ran a wild bird trial but it sounds like the dogs and the handlers just don't know how to handle wild birds. My dogs are trained on pen raised birds and we usually do some refresh work during the summer. When we get in the grouse woods it takes a few bird contacts for them to start handling the grouse again.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:05 pm

Bernee, they have pushed it back just enough that I cannot make it to watch Sam run...My Sam x Dolly pups are due Wed and he will run Wed a.m. (Can u believe that!)...Please give him a pat and send me a message if u can..I know I will not hear anything for awhile on Wed...

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:16 pm

fuzznut wrote:haven't seen a flying turtle ..... yet!

We had dinner last night at the Bird Dog museum, very cool place. So much history, beautiful artwork and lots of old friends photos on the walls - Denes Burjan, John Frayne, great dog men and I miss them.

Met Nick who was the scout for the past couple of years National Champions (The Pointers), he tells great stories and knows this place like the back of his hand. A colorful character to be sure. John Rex Gate's wife is here, and many of the other well known AF pointer guys have come by to wish us all luck.

For those who didn't make the trip to Ames, you have missed a wonderful experience.

My family and I stopped by the museum the Sunday before on our way home from the National Amateur Free For All. They were having a welcoming for the AKC trials, so we were lucky they were open. My boys thought it was really cool to see the photos of all the dogs and their great-grandfather. After checking out the museum I went to let my dogs out of the car and take them for a walk. Mrs. Gates came out and said "I didn't know there were going to be any pointers here." She introduced herself and was very kind and complimentary about my dogs. She invited us to come in and chat, as we had just been at the trial with a lot of the people she knew from living in Union Springs, AL, but the boys were way to unruly for that so we had to hit the road. What a gracious and classy lady she is. It was a pleasure to meet her.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:17 pm

I didn't say you said they were wild birds but the quote is for those who are saying they are like wild birds, they aren't. They are prereleased.

I'm not bitter but its interesting how trials have over a thousand birds released prior to their start and this has a fat 0, yet people point out how many birds per hour the pointers had (right).... So the AKC wants to run a stake on famed and sacred ground for pointer folks? Why?

In my opinion the AKC has their head stuck in the sand when they put the trial on. They will not get the same product as the pointers which the grounds are originally ment for that's all. Can't have the same product when you are using old ingredients, shortened time to finish the product, etc. There is no reason for the AKC to move in on someone else's grounds. The only plus for the AKC is they can say they held a trial there... Wow they gained absolutely nothing besides the fact that they can draw a lot of people in for the event.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:19 pm

ultracarry wrote:I didn't say you said they were wild birds but the quote is for those who are saying they are like wild birds, they aren't. They are prereleased.

I'm not bitter but its interesting how trials have over a thousand birds released prior to their start and this has a fat 0, yet people point out how many birds per hour the pointers had (right).... So the AKC wants to run a stake on famed and sacred ground for pointer folks? Why?

In my opinion the AKC has their head stuck in the sand when they put the trial on. They will not get the same product as the pointers which the grounds are originally ment for that's all. Can't have the same product when you are using old ingredients, shortened time to finish the product, etc. There is no reason for the AKC to move in on someone else's grounds. The only plus for the AKC is they can say they held a trial there... Wow they gained absolutely nothing besides the fact that they can draw a lot of people in for the event.

Someone fell off a horse today b/c of the mud and is in the hospital. This is turning into a disaster - surprised a tornado didn't hit them last week with all the luck they're having.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:45 pm

Ken Lynch wrote:I am currently at the AKC Gun Dog Championship. I arrived last Monday in the afternoon. I do not ride a horse so all that I have seen personally has been at the breakaways or small portions of the course as the brace makes a road transition from one side to the other and I have not seen all braces. I have yet to meet anyone here that has ridden the braces that says the birds are not out there. They have been seen by people in the gallery near where a dog has been moved on after a non-productive. They have been seen when a dog was found on point deep in cover after a tracker was used to locate a missing dog. And of course, some dogs have successfully found and handled birds during their brace. That being said here are some observations. These observations involve three areas, birds, training, and trial environment.
First are few observations about the birds. The smell of the bird is different. This is not your typical AKC or American Field event. Pen raised birds are not being planted every brace. These birds do not stink like your typical trial birds in that they do not have the smell of bird sh.. all over them from being confined in cages until taken out and released. They do not have the smell from being confined in a bird bag carried around on a horse or quad. They do not have the smell of human handling on them (I do not think the practice of wearing gloves does anything to prevent human scent on the bird). The behavior of the bird is different. Pen raised birds do not react to humans like wild birds. Humans feed pen raised birds. Wild birds find their own food or do not survive. A portion of the dogs entered have probably spent most of the lives trained on nothing but pen raised birds. The birds on the course have been around long enough to prove that they are survivors. They have survived the multitude of predators that are present on the grounds. They have learned to move away from unnatural sounds. Just like all the other wild birds. The people who hunt wild pheasants will tell you all kinds of stories about what happens if you make too much noise. Grouse hunters will tell you similar stories. Think about it. Your typical weekend trial has handlers blowing whistles or vocal commands to get their dog to move forward or turn when they want. When the dog is out of sight they are “singing” to their dogs to let them know where they are. If you were to conduct your wild bird hunt in the same manner what do you think your success rate would be. Because these birds have been out and survived predators they have learned to be quicker to flight (walking or flying).
Second a few observations on training. A goodly portion of training a gun dog involves patterning. The dog is trained to run edges or to objectives. This is done by planting birds along the edge of a line or objective. We as trainers try to ensure the success of the training lesson by having the wind bring the scent of the bird out to where the dog encounters it when running the edge or once at an objective. The result is a dog that runs lines or goes to objectives but never digs into the cover. It is also not clear that the dog has learned to use the direction of the wind to determine which edge of a field to run. Those dogs will run an edge whether the wind is coming from the cover into the open or from the open into the cover. If birds are found on an edge at this event it is because of pure chance and not because they were planted there. Another thing is that some dogs have learned (intentional or unintentional) to run a course because horses and people scent exist along the course. If no trail exists they are lost. Since no course is used more than once a day, at best there is a horse trail 24 hours old. A final thought on training is that some dogs have been allowed to move closer to the bird after they have detected scent. With pen raised birds they get away with it and wild birds they do not. Not all dogs at this event have been lucky enough to hunt a lot of wild birds and are used to overly skittish birds.
Last is the environment of the trial here at Ames. Some of the course involves road crossings. These are places where the course necks down to cross the road and expands on the other side of the road. This ends up as a distraction to the dog in the sense that the handler has to gather up the dog to get it through the crossing. Also with all the observers standing around it results in breaking the hour stake into several mini stakes with their associated break away. The dogs tend to mill around with all the people as though it might be the end of the brace. This event also attracts a large number of riders in the gallery with associated level of voice chatter.
Put all of these things together when you read things on the forum and you realize that these dogs are not doing too badly for the circumstances under which they are being run. When the dog is found standing and moved on with a nonproductive. Was it a stop to flush situation or unseen bump situation? Did the bird or birds move to deeper cover because of the noise of the approaching handler or gallery? Did the birds just melt into the cover because the handler was not diligent enough or aggressive enough in trying to find the bird before deciding to move the dog on? Bottom line is I think this is a great event and should be repeated in the future. I do think if held here again in the future it will result in changing some of the training methods used in getting dogs ready for this event.

Ken,
I'm going to suggest that your observations are likely dead spot on and that you've hit the nail on the head on all accounts. Since the reports came out on the first day, it has been my thoughts that quiet Handlers, a quiet Gallery and a dog EXPERIENCED in handling, self relocating(UNTIL Point is called) and pinning running WILD Birds is going to be the Winner coming out of this. That dog and Handler, if braced with someone whom sings loudly and often, is likely going to be disadvantaged by that noise. Should two Handlers running together devise a way of working quietly together as a complete team with said type dogs, you'll be much more likely to see fantastic work, but I'm going to suggest that will not be likely to happen. I also think that any Handler that doesn't circle WIDE out in front of their dog and try to pin the running birds between them and working back into the dogs face, instead of the typical "Game" approach of coming up alongside their dog, is just going to be chasing birds away that they won't likely see. A quiet handle, an experienced wild bird dog and team work is going to get it done. Anything less is just not going to cut it. While these may not be true wild birds, they are going to dayum sure act like it.
Curious Ken; Is the Marshall keeping the Gallery noise and chatter to a minimum?

Tyler,
You should come East someday and hunt our Ruffed Grouse, they are NOTHING like you're used to. I would suggest they act more like a Gambel's that will run out on a dog, flush quietly out the back door on the dog before you get to them and do everything in their power to separate you from them by several hundred yards of thick brush in a blink when they do sit for a flush! I think you'd love it

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

Got word from a friend at Ames....they are going to speed things up now. So that must mean the judges have 12 in their book for the second series....you gotta move somebody out now. They said that if the judge has your tracker in his hands.....you're up.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:41 pm

How can they hav 12 for second series when there are alot left to run.

Ken Lynch · Post by **Ken Lynch** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:45 pm

Bruce,
I did not mean to imply that the gallery was overly raucous. However, that said there is an additional background noise associated with 40 – 50 people riding horses and talking. One person talking quietly is one thing. 20 - 30 talking quietly is quiet but not as quiet. Kind of like the difference between standing in an empty restaurant and when it is full of patrons. The horses contribute their noise akin to waiting staff of the restaurant serving food or clearing tables.

Pixie ran today. She got picked up. No excuse, she did not get it done.

Ultracarry,
Back in the 50’s my parents moved the family to a small country town. The locals used to say you were not a local until you had been there for three generations. I know that birds released are not “native” in the sense that they were not born in the wild. However, at some point after being released and having survived for a period of time they are no longer the captive born bird that was originally released. All I am saying is these birds no longer look, smell, or behave like they did when released. In fact they look, smell, and behave like the birds that were born in the wild at the Ames Plantation. You do not end up with segregated coves, locals vs those that just moved into the neighborhood. Be willing to bet if you had both birds in your hand you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:50 pm

snips wrote:How can they hav 12 for second series when there are alot left to run.

Maybe he means there is 12 good enough to move on - but some dogs can still usurp those 12...? I don't really get it either.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Ultra, you do sound a tad bitter or confused or something. What do we gain? The opportunity to run on some legendary grounds, isn't that enough? Seems to me, there is no making some folks happy no matter what AKC does.

And Wyndancer, the judges have been handing trackers to handlers whose dogs have been gone too long all week long. Just in case I missed something, I asked some of the powers to be.... bull is what I was told. Just because there already 12 dogs of the day, doesn't mean they will make the second series. I wish it were that way since I have a dog that made dog of the day, but I'm not countin' any chickens yet.

It ain't over till it's over.... lots of dogs to run yet.
Fuzz

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:09 pm

bb560m wrote:
snips wrote:How can they hav 12 for second series when there are alot left to run.
Maybe he means there is 12 good enough to move on - but some dogs can still usurp those 12...? I don't really get it either.

I mean that the judges have 12 that they'd be happy with to take to the second series, and now, if say at 30 minutes, if you aren't moving one of the 12 out (doing better, beating)....you're up. The "bar" is set at those 12 they have...you gotta clear the bar to keep going.....and they'll only give you so long to do it. I'm guessing the 30 minute "rule" is in effect. In short, you got 30 minutes to make me a believer, if you can't...you're up. If you can, keep going.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:29 pm

I just talked to a friend on the ground at Ames and asked him that exact question. They have heard nothing of the sort, but that's not to say it isn't true.not sure why they would do that considering they still have plenty of time with only a few dogs still with birds and they are in no hurry.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:42 pm

Fuzz... Those are pointer field trial grounds. Made for those who run pointer field trials. There are plenty of great grounds around the country where you can set the event up the way you like. If you want wild birds you can go up north and run on wild birds... We even have some places in California that are full of valley quail that you can run a trial on. If you want pen raised birds you can go that route also. It seems half arse to run on pen raised birds released a week, two weeks, a month etc.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:48 pm

ultracarry wrote:Fuzz... Those are pointer field trial grounds. Made for those who run pointer field trials. There are plenty of great grounds around the country where you can set the event up the way you like. If you want wild birds you can go up north and run on wild birds... We even have some places in California that are full of valley quail that you can run a trial on. If you want pen raised birds you can go that route also. It seems half arse to run on pen raised birds released a week, two weeks, a month etc.

What makes them Pointer grounds?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:50 pm

ultracarry wrote:Fuzz... Those are pointer field trial grounds. Made for those who run pointer field trials. There are plenty of great grounds around the country where you can set the event up the way you like. If you want wild birds you can go up north and run on wild birds... We even have some places in California that are full of valley quail that you can run a trial on. If you want pen raised birds you can go that route also. It seems half arse to run on pen raised birds released a week, two weeks, a month etc.

Why is that half arsed? Conway, AR which are probably some of the best grounds in the country do 2 releases a yr and have trials all the time on there and never have a problem with bird work.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:07 pm

Wild birds are just that. Pen raised are just that. Pen raised trials should be planted accordingly.

Sorry winddancer I left out the setters in the NFT. But you notice how a pointer guy didn't point that out.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:12 pm

ultracarry wrote:Wild birds are just that. Pen raised are just that. Pen raised trials should be planted accordingly.

Sorry winddancer I left out the setters in the NFT. But you notice how a pointer guy didn't point that out.

Nice. So what makes them Pointer grounds? Is there a special kinda Pointer mud that I don't know about that cause all other breeds to swell up and unable to run? Or some special Pointer brush? I'm asking.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:17 pm

Since your asking I never said no dogs could run there. Finding birds that were specifically planted (released) for a different event after that event has already ran and pushed the birds around.

I'll let you look at previous years running orders and come to your own conclusion of the breeds that run specifically in the national field trial which the grounds are so famed for. Then you have quotes from pointer folks like this...

ElhewPointer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Are they going to let them on the steps for the photos?

I hope not. Even if it is a pointer that would win. IMO, only the big dance winner gets to go to the steps of the big house.

You think he is the only one that doesn't look at it as sacred grounds? Just an opinion.

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Wild birds are just that. Pen raised are just that. Pen raised trials should be planted accordingly.

Sorry winddancer I left out the setters in the NFT. But you notice how a pointer guy didn't point that out.

Nice. So what makes them Pointer grounds? Is there a special kinda Pointer mud that I don't know about that cause all other breeds to swell up and unable to run? Or some special Pointer brush? I'm asking.

Apparently, the pointers are the ones that find birds there.

:roll: