Grouse Dog Range

RayJ · Post by **RayJ** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:14 pm

Curious as to how far you want your grouse dogs to range out

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:18 pm

RayJ wrote:Curious as to how far you want your grouse dogs to range out

I don't see mine often and don't hear them all the time as well but they are to the front looking for birds and that is what I want. The birds dictate the range to some extent. Sorry that is not much help on average 75-200 yes more or less.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:24 pm

I prefer to have them stay in the same township.

I like the first answer.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:27 pm

What cajun said.

If they are behind they better not range at all - doesn't matter what type of bird we are hunting.

Ralph Ford · Post by **Ralph Ford** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:04 pm

50 yds. to the front, 125 yds. to either side. 30 yds. to the rear. That is a good hunting range. Twice that is acceptable if they are on point.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:34 pm

Depends upon whether one adds in the yards up and down or just a straight measure thru a hill.
Nothing wrong with allowing pups some discretion....somewhere between a runoff robot and a master's lackey relative to range.
You know at the end of a day or a season whether the distance averaged out sufficient to please.

Bigriver05 · Post by **Bigriver05** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:17 am

My English Setter grouse dog changes his range to the cover we are in. If we are in a older cut and more open woods , he usually makes 175-300 yard casts. He covers the ground fast and makes big circles. When we are in thick cuts and laurel he usually is within 100 yards or so.

dutch7 · Post by **dutch7** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:33 pm

In thick cover 50-60 yds tops, all other cover that isn't thick - isn't worth the effort on Grouse...

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:53 pm

100 yards max.

Ralph Ford · Post by **Ralph Ford** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:02 pm

gpblitz wrote:Grouse dog range to me is what ever the owner is comfortable with. Myself if I can hear the beeper there in range.

Beepers are a nice gadget to have available!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:32 pm

This topic keeps coming up on all the different sites. The right range is the right one for you given the conditions. For those that hunt by satellite or electronic detection, it really doesn't matter...let them run a mile...you can hope the bird is there when you get there. Where I hunt and what I want is somewhat less....50-100 yds because this kind of cover is just a PITA to get through....and frankly, I have no interest in fighting through 500 yds of it to get to a point.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:10 pm

For me ideal range when hunting is anywhere between about 85 yards to about 200 yards. When running on grouse I like it when my english setter is running bigger; up to about 250 yards. I've written this before, but I've worked birds from points over 300 yards. I do use long range bells and can hear them up to about 300 yards on a non windy day.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:54 pm

as i use lab,i like toby at about 30 yds.over that and i cant hit grouse anyhow.
35 yds shooting is max for me.

toby is flusher and does not cover area like your pointers but i get grouse with him but you have to be ready.i like to watch dog work while i am hunting.in pa over 35 yds your not going to see much of your dog.
only problem is labs cant take heat.
no grouse run on toby.

huntcrazed · Post by **huntcrazed** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:08 pm

Depending on the dogs ability to not leave birds behind and most important of all if a dog is steady and never spook game the bigger the range the better.
After all in grouse cover any range the dog is out of site most of the time so if the goal is to find most birds the most range the better.
If your goal is to know where the dog is in every step of its search ,then you might want to settle for less action.
I run both an astro and a beeper on grouse and do not mind to be constantly hiking to a pointing dog but I am sure everyone's preference will be different depending on what they like.

Mario

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:32 pm

JKP wrote: I have no interest in fighting through 500 yds of it to get to a point.

I have yet to meet anyone from a cover dog trialer to a hunter that wants a dog to range 500 yards for ruffed grouse.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:15 am

Unless you have a tracker or GSP collar. How do you really know how far the dog is.You can not see it usually even if it is just 50 yards away. The best estimation with out gps or trackers is bell range or beeper range. That usually in grouse woods is just up to maybe 150 yards, the few times I can see them, at least for me. Beyond that they might as well be in Boston. (Dang skill saws, hammers, snowmobiles and guns.)

Think about three foot ball fields long out in the open have someone ring the bell. How loud is it? Now add wind, brush, hills, etc.
I hear bells and beepers well but not beyond that 150 mark.

Also,when you have a dog that ranges out you better be able to have the dog relocate once you are near and not till you get there. It takes time to find a dog in tight cover. I have had a dog within 10 yards of me and not be able to see it.
The birds will walk off, or flush if pressured. On occasion the bird is pinned in a manner that it feels there is no way out.

I like working a longer ranged dog with a shorter one. That is the way to cover your bases completely.

Dogs run bigger in the open fields and woods than tight cover.

As far as a dog working behind. If a dog is constantly back there, maybe you are not working the land right. Maybe there are some thermals or offsetting breezes that are working back there and the dog is working the wind. Although, I would always rather the dog is more to side and front, too many time the dog has found a bird that we got by for what ever reason, for me to get to cranked up about it.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:33 am

Ruffshooter wrote:Unless you have a tracker or GSP collar. How do you really know how far the dog is.You can not see it usually even if it is just 50 yards away. The best estimation with out gps or trackers is bell range or beeper range. That usually in grouse woods is just up to maybe 150 yards, the few times I can see them, at least for me. Beyond that they might as well be in Boston. (Dang skill saws, hammers, snowmobiles and guns.)

That is what I use my Garmin Astro for, to help me gauge the range of my dog by the sound of her bell. If I had to use the Astro to find my dog when she goes on point I wouldn't waste my time in a cover dog trial since you can't use trackers during the trial. I used to hate bells until I learned how much information I get from just the sound.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:43 am

You are right the reading the bell does give you a lot of info when it is moving and you can hear it.

I would not have thought one could get good enough signal for the Garmin to work in the cover. How often does the Garmin up date the dogs location? I have to find an open are for my hand held Garmin GPS to grab satellites. The ASTRO must be powerful or is it also an electroinc tracker as well as GPS?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:48 am

Ruffshooter wrote:You are right the reading the bell does give you a lot of info when it is moving and you can hear it.

I would not have thought one could get good enough signal for the Garmin to work in the cover. How often does the Garmin up date the dogs location? I have to find an open are for my hand held Garmin GPS to grab satellites. The ASTRO must be powerful or is it also an electroinc tracker as well as GPS?

Something must be wrong with your GPS. My Astro reads perfectly in heavy cover and NEVER loses the dog, even at 200 plus yards. I also have a garmin etrex hcx. Same deal. I don't think I have ever once been in cover so heavy, the gps didn't give me an immediate reading.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:15 am

Maybe I should not be hunting in caves

dakotashooter2 · Post by **dakotashooter2** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:17 am

Depends if you are hunting a pointer or flusher. I hunt flushers so I don't want my dogs more than 25-30 yards out. Even closer in heavy cover. Even with a pointer in open cover I'm not sure I'd want a dog more than 50-60 yards out. I think it's personal preferance.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:37 am

Ruff I would get your untit checked out. People have problems with them here too and others in the same cover don't have a problem at all. I have seen them work just fine when a dog decides he is going to blow off a handler and take a tour out 2 3rds of a mile, in rough cover. I think mine is set to update every 5 seconds but you can adjust it to get more accuracy or battery life.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:55 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:How often does the Garmin up date the dogs location? I have to find an open are for my hand held Garmin GPS to grab satellites. The ASTRO must be powerful or is it also an electroinc tracker as well as GPS?

I think I have it set up like Winchey does and get updates every 5 seconds. I have more trouble with the radio signal than the GPS signal. I recently got a leather holster for the receiver and now keep it around my neck because when I had it in my vest I could lose the radio signal. When the receiver isn't covered up I don't have a problem keeping contact.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:23 pm

RayJ,
A great Grouse dog adjust his hunting to the habitat he is working and where the birds are located, and works with his master.
It's not a matter of range it's a matter of bidability, insticts and thought process. A Grouse dogs working range can be both
short and long depending on individual habitat and Grouse numbers. Flushing dogs are a different matter.
RGD/Dave

Harold and Ken approach Penny and Daisy on Grouse point, 30 yard to Harold, 60 yards to Ken over 95 Yards to the camera.
Grouse dogs must learn to set birds and stand point until the gunner flushes the Grouse, no matter the distance.
Owners and trainers make a big mistake trying to hold a Grouse dog to any certain distance (range), especially now that master initiated Beeper /locator collars are available to the trainer/owner. Quality T&B collars work for over a mile even in the big forest,
seldom will a well trained Grouse dog need that much distance, to set a Grouse for gunning.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:34 pm

I think 100 yards is ideal but there is another factor to consider. There is a big difference between a dog used exclusively on grouse and woodcock, and a dog that hunts the prairies one week, the grouse woods the next, the foothills the next.

I think it's true that a good bird dog adjust it's range to the cover, but I also feel that a dog that runs open country a lot will always run a little bigger in the grouse woods. They may run at 200 yards on the prairie and drop to 100 in the grouse woods, but they'll never be a 60-80 yard grouse dog specialist. IMO.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:49 pm

dakotashooter2 wrote:Depends if you are hunting a pointer or flusher. I hunt flushers so I don't want my dogs more than 25-30 yards out. Even closer in heavy cover. Even with a pointer in open cover I'm not sure I'd want a dog more than 50-60 yards out. I think it's personal preferance.

that is way toby my lab hunts,about 40 yds max.
no beepers,no e-collars,no worry where he is at.
BUT to locate MORE birds, a dog that ranges out farther will find more birds.
i seen that for years but i always got my 2 grouse per day with toby the flusher at 30 yds.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:55 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:RayJ,
A great Grouse dog adjust his hunting to the habitat he is working and where the birds are located, and works with his master.
It's not a matter of range it's a matter of bidability, insticts and thought process. A Grouse dogs working range can be both
short and long depending on individual habitat and Grouse numbers. Flushing dogs are a different matter.
RGD/Dave

Harold and Ken approach Penny and Daisy on Grouse point, 30 yard to Harold, 60 yards to Ken over 95 Yards to the camera.
Grouse dogs must learn to set birds and stand point until the gunner flushes the Grouse, no matter the distance.
Owners and trainers make a big mistake trying to hold a Grouse dog to any certain distance (range), especially now that master initiated Beeper /locator collars are available to the trainer/owner. Quality T&B collars work for over a mile even in the big forest,
seldom will a well trained Grouse dog need that much distance, to set a Grouse for gunning.

this is going to be big change for me going from CLOSE WORKING FLUSHER to pointer i cant see.46 yrs with LAB hunting grouse .

Ralph Ford · Post by **Ralph Ford** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:51 am

Sproulman, It sounds like you are trying something new with a pointing dog. If you have not made this purchase yet, there are some distinct differences in pointing dogs as it relates to range. Generally speaking, there are breeds that range farther than others, there are line within breeds that range differently.
If you already have a pup, and you worry about range, there are development tricks that can make a pointing dog more apt to stay closer.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:46 am

Sproulman,
Ralphs advise is right on the money, different lines inside any particular breed have their own instinctive hunting genetic imprint.
A Llew Cover dog and a Ryman Setter are good examples of this difference in hunting styles. Its not just how big the dog runs however,
there is a difference in the actual hunting styles, that a man should really witness on a hunt prior to purchasing. Justin has a serious young Llew Setter with Ryman blood in it a few generations back, and this pup is really going to be a big time Grouse finding machine.
The pup actually has both styles in him and uses them to his serious advantage, its a pleasure to watch that young dog work the Grouse woods, he reminds me of Georges 50's Ryman gun dogs, very very much. He floats at 90 as George use to say. He does not over run
Grouse, he has that kind of instinct, and the nose to back his speed. Your flushing dog works in a different manner but you will adjust to the pointing dog very quickly, remember a good pointing dog is the hunter, you are just along as the woodsman gunner, to flush and gun the Grouse, brush busting is not your job, hunting is the dogs job. Young Grouse hunters usually have little conception of this part of Grouse hunting, with as long as you have hunted with your lab I believe you will pick up on this very very quickly. Now if you have a Small Munsterlander the hunting style changes again, I have a SM and Ryman mixed brace I hunt together, and at times I actually feel sorry for the Grouse, the styles are so different and they cover massive forest, both working with me, not for themselves. Together thay have set up more true doubles in the past 5 years, than I have had in the rest of my Grouse hunting life. Again bidability is one of the biggest qualifications for a great Grouse dog.
RGD/Dave

Again Range depends on habitat and Grouse location, examples shown in the next two pictures.

Daisy on Grouse point about 75 yards out, taken with a 10X telephoto lens. One of the biggest lessons a Grouse hunter must learn is to trust his dog, in reality the dog instinctively knows more about Grouse hunting, than a human will ever learn. However the two must learn to hunt as companions, here in lies the challenge.

Daisy locked on Grouse point less than 20 yards away for the camera.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:22 pm

Ralph Ford wrote:Sproulman, It sounds like you are trying something new with a pointing dog. If you have not made this purchase yet, there are some distinct differences in pointing dogs as it relates to range. Generally speaking, there are breeds that range farther than others, there are line within breeds that range differently.
If you already have a pup, and you worry about range, there are development tricks that can make a pointing dog more apt to stay closer.

ralph, i have deposit in on SM but dont know if i will get one yet.i am 8th on pick.will know by end of april, i believe.
i almost got a lew setter pup from lynnhill,had pick of litter but after dave talked about the SMALL MUNSTERLANDER, i had to check it out.
i liked what i saw and made decision to go for pup.
talking about range.i put no bell or anything on toby my lab to hunt other than bright collar.
he is always out in front of me, no whistle to come over etc.no shock collar.

i have been in blizzards with him and did not have to worry about anything.
come out woods in dark with him right by my side.
heavy rain, right out front hunting.
what a dog BUT he cant take heat.
he FLUSHES and i cant get as close to birds after leaves drop off because of that.

so, i said, JIM K , time to try pointer.

i always will have lab in my home.what nice all AROUND DOG THEY ARE if YOU GET small long legged ones .

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:37 am

Jim K,
Nothing wrong with a SM/Lab mixed brace, my buddy Bill and I hunted Grouse in this manner many times with his Chocolate Lab and my SM or GSP, depending on which one of my dogs got the nod that outing. It does help if you have a Lab that points, or if the Lab has been trained to do the flushing work only, Bill's Chocolate Lab split pointed everything so we had a great time Grouse hunting the dogs together. The Lab and SM can work well together in the Grouse woods, we worked Pheasants in the same manner.
RGD/Dave

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:58 am

I've got a wider ranging english setter and a closer working lab that hunt great together. The lab knows to come to the heal position when I call point or the lab will sometimes honor the setter's point if she sees the setter on point before I call point. If the pointing dog and flusher hunt around the same range then you may run into some issues, but otherwise the combo is great for grouse.

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:07 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Jim K,
Nothing wrong with a SM/Lab mixed brace, my buddy Bill and I hunted Grouse in this manner many times with his Chocolate Lab and my SM or GSP, depending on which one of my dogs got the nod that outing. It does help if you have a Lab that points, or if the Lab has been trained to do the flushing work only, Bill's Chocolate Lab split pointed everything so we had a great time Grouse hunting the dogs together. The Lab and SM can work well together in the Grouse woods, we worked Pheasants in the same manner.
RGD/Dave

some say pointing dogs will stop pointing if they watch FLUSHER..dont know ,only what some said not to do.

dave, you need to get one of those HAT CAMERAS.

BillGraves · Post by **BillGraves** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:56 am

JIM K wrote:as i use lab,i like toby at about 30 yds.over that and i cant hit grouse anyhow.
35 yds shooting is max for me.

toby is flusher and does not cover area like your pointers but i get grouse with him but you have to be ready.i like to watch dog work while i am hunting.in pa over 35 yds your not going to see much of your dog.
only problem is labs cant take heat.
no grouse run on toby.

I was up in Renovo just this year hunting! Did you ever run into a guy by the name of Dave Neuman? or Jarrod Snyder? They hunt up that way A LOT!

Bill

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:24 pm

I was out this afternoon for an hour with my setter and lab and it appears the sweet spot today was between 80 yards and 115 yards. My setter had a couple casts of 230+ yards but my setter spent most of her time under 150 yards today with all 6 birds (4 woodcock and 2 grouse) being pointed at less than 120 yards (115 yds., 109 yds., 108 yds., 106 yds. 103 yds., 79 yds.). I ran the dogs like a trial and kept track of the distance and time of each point. The first point came in at 5 minutes and the last one came in at about 53 minutes. I called the dogs in at one hour as we were back to where we started and it was getting late. I wish the pictures would have turned out better.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:45 am

I was out yesterday with the dogs running on ruffed grouse and woodcock. As I said earlier in the thread I prefer a bigger running pointing dog and here's why. The poor video below is from a 207 yard point. With the route I took yesterday this bird would not have been found by a dog with a closer range. If this was a hunting situation I could have ground swatted the bird (I'm not a big fan of this option) or I could have shot at it when I went around the dog for the flush. This bird was a shootable bird however with my shooting abilities being able to down the bird is a different story.

The dog may not look the nicest with the poor position of her tail, but her bird manners were good.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:44 am

Grange,
Man I do wish the Garmin trackers would work in our Pa big forest, but they have all kind of problems here, everyone who comes and hunts with us looses signal at least 6 time for every 4 hrs they Grouse hunt, now that Garmin has purchased TT maybe they will develope something that can be use in our thick forest. I am really looking forward to it. It's great they work where you like to Grouse and Woodcock hunt.
RGD/Dave

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:14 am

My setter had a couple casts of 230+ yards but my setter spent most of her time under 150 yards today with all 6 birds (4 woodcock and 2 grouse) being pointed at less than 120 yards (115 yds., 109 yds., 108 yds., 106 yds. 103 yds., 79 yds.).

This would sound about right to me. In the real thick tangles it could be less. For these distances I find a good low tone bell works well and between knowing the dog, hearing/seeing the dog's last location/cast, I seem to get to dogs quickly, unless the dog is in the real nasties or the thornapple is too thick.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:06 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Grange,
Man I do wish the Garmin trackers would work in our Pa big forest, but they have all kind of problems here, everyone who comes and hunts with us looses signal at least 6 time for every 4 hrs they Grouse hunt, now that Garmin has purchased TT maybe they will develope something that can be use in our thick forest. I am really looking forward to it. It's great they work where you like to Grouse and Woodcock hunt.
RGD/Dave

This area is pretty darn flat, which helps a lot. With the software upgrade from this winter I've been finding that I'm losing the signal more. I did upgrade the DC40 collar this morning and the signal loss seems to be much better, but I still lost the signal a couple times for a few seconds. I don't know if it's because of the software upgrade or something else but compared to when I first got the Astro I've been losing the signal more frequently.

Edit: I should note that I'm talking about the radio signal between the collar and receiver not the GPS signal.

JKP wrote:
My setter had a couple casts of 230+ yards but my setter spent most of her time under 150 yards today with all 6 birds (4 woodcock and 2 grouse) being pointed at less than 120 yards (115 yds., 109 yds., 108 yds., 106 yds. 103 yds., 79 yds.).
This would sound about right to me. In the real thick tangles it could be less. For these distances I find a good low tone bell works well and between knowing the dog, hearing/seeing the dog's last location/cast, I seem to get to dogs quickly, unless the dog is in the real nasties or the thornapple is too thick.

I had my dogs out in the same spot this morning and this time the the points were longer. Three of the 4 were over 150 yards with the short one coming in a 84 yards on a woodcock. The others were 151 yards, 165 yards and 265 yards. The longest point is pictured below and was on a grouse. I do use a low tone bell, which you can see in the bottom picture below. I love that thing.

In this area prickly ash and raspberries are what often get me.

From a different angle

After the flush and shot.

My lab also found two woodcock and they were within gun range if I would have had a gun instead of my blank pistol.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:15 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I think 100 yards is ideal but there is another factor to consider. There is a big difference between a dog used exclusively on grouse and woodcock, and a dog that hunts the prairies one week, the grouse woods the next, the foothills the next.

I think it's true that a good bird dog adjust it's range to the cover, but I also feel that a dog that runs open country a lot will always run a little bigger in the grouse woods. They may run at 200 yards on the prairie and drop to 100 in the grouse woods, but they'll never be a 60-80 yard grouse dog specialist. IMO.

FWIW, I absolutely agree with this.

Charlie

JIM K · Post by **JIM K** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:33 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Grange,
Man I do wish the Garmin trackers would work in our Pa big forest, but they have all kind of problems here, everyone who comes and hunts with us looses signal at least 6 time for every 4 hrs they Grouse hunt, now that Garmin has purchased TT maybe they will develope something that can be use in our thick forest. I am really looking forward to it. It's great they work where you like to Grouse and Woodcock hunt.
RGD/Dave

you are right,dave.thats why i hunt mornings in strange areas.my first GPS failure was inarea 2 hrs before dark that i was not used too.
as i started to walk out, BANG signal went dead. lucky i had my compass with me.
with leaves on trees here in pa BIGWOODS, you better know how to use compass.