Another update

[proudag08]

**UPDATE!! Please note that this is my post from about three months ago. I just added pictures of my pup, I appreciate all the E-collar advice and am happy to report that we got through the conditioning process well. Frio is fully conditioned to it but rarely needs it anymore. I just wanted to give a little update on ho we were doing. Scroll down to see more pictures.**



This handsome guy is growing fast! Took him to my inlaws place this past weekend. There is a guy that trains meat dogs in town and took Frio out there just to play. When we got there we put a quail down just to see what he would do. Frio chased it down (the quail had a weight on it), brought it right to me and didnt even chomp once. We let some quail loose and I was able to steady him on a whoa with a CC (slack rope) for about 3 seconds before he would lunge at the quail. We planted some quail and let him run and try to find them. He smelt them alright but he didn't know what to do with that smell. He just doesnt know the game yet and I'm ok with that. He will be 6 months old this month, He'll learn. The trainer had a .22 starter pistol and shot it from about 75 yards away while Frio was running. Frio didnt even stop to check on it. Throughout the 30 minutes or so we were letting him run he shot the gun 2 more times. Each time while Frio was engaged. Didn't phase him one bit, so that was encouraging. My birthday is tomorrow so hopefully I will be getting a TT G3 (or the money to buy one) for him so I can get him collar conditioned and really start his training. I'm excited to see what this ol bird dog can do!

[markj]

You gonna put a shock collar on a 6 month old?

[ultracarry]

I would... Now how would you use it?

Nice looking dog there.

[rinker]

My puppies wear a shock collar every time they go to the field as soon as they are big enough to wear it. I do turn the collar on but I have no intentions of shocking them. All of my young dogs go crazy when I come out of the house carrying a shock collar, there is nothing negative to them about wearing it.

[markj]

Now how would you use it

Um well to be truthful I dont use em. I train the dogs, they all come on my command, all kennel up on my command, heel, whoa etc by my command. I use the Delmar Smith method. When I first started training dogs and horses didnt have any shock collars. I see lots of folks in the field use em tho, makes their dog fun off till stimulation quits. guy hollars shoots at dog etc. Saw one guy take a 2 year old setter lift dog over his head and slam it to the ground. I had my 9 year old nephew with me, that dog was on a point near me. Nephew is married now has one kid and 4 years of duty as a Marine this was awhile ago. I left that guy right there.....

Dont have to shock a dog if you do yer work and get it trained up right.

[DogNewbie]

I started collar conditioning my pup at 5months and started turning the collar on and over laying it with the cc at 6.5months. Pup did great. He can't wait to get it on everytime I bring the collar out. I agree you don't need one to train a dog but living in a city it's a safety thing for me. I train at a park down the road that is surrounded by busy streets and I wouldn't dare to let my pup run off leash there without an ecollar. I don't have to use it very often but it's there if I do need it.

[Cajun Casey]

Happy Birthday and good luck on the gift. He's a nice looking youngster. Looks like you've found an effective shampoo!

[proudag08]

Yes I am going to put a shock collar on a 6 month old. No I am not just going to start shocking th crap out of him as soon as he messes up. I also live in the suburbs and dont want my dog running off into a street and getting hurt.

I understand that this collar is not something to be taken lightly and there is right and wrong way to use all training tools. I will not pretend to be any sort of an expert at training a dog but this is the method I have heard (and seen) workd best and this is the method I have chosen.

Although I might get it tomorrow I am not going to use it tomorrow. I am welcome to any advice on how you guys started your pups out on the collar, how long it took, what to look for, what to be cautious of, etc. Also if anyone has seen any good videos online about the introduction of the collar, I am a visual learner and would love to check those out.

Thanks for the comments.

[DonF]

I put a collar on them soon as it fits them. But I don't turn it on and leave the transmitter in the house. You can, of course, train a dog without an e-collar. From then on they wear it till they are finished training at which time I wean them off of it.

[Karen]

My puppies wear a shock collar every time they go to the field as soon as they are big enough to wear it. I do turn the collar on but I have no intentions of shocking them. All of my young dogs go crazy when I come out of the house carrying a shock collar, there is nothing negative to them about wearing it.

Same with us...but we HAVE used it for trash breaking (eating deer poo and such) without ANY negative effects.

[DogNewbie]

I put a collar on them soon as it fits them. But I don't turn it on and leave the transmitter in the house. You can, of course, train a dog without an e-collar. From then on they wear it till they are finished training at which time I wean them off of it.

This is pretty much how I did it and the only thing I would do different is actually turning the collar on. Don't plan on using it but the first time my pup ran into a deer I was really kicking myself for not having that collar on. I don't think I would use a high stim on a 6month old pup but at the very least you could slow him down with a medium stim and take the chase out of him....other than that, just don't use any stim in training until he's worn it for at least a month...I waitedlonger just because I didn't feel the pup was ready yet. The pup should eventually be associating the collar with fun time and soon he will be jumping all over you every time you take it out.

[markj]

but the first time my pup ran into a deer

Whoa is for this. Worked before shock collars, still does guess the dogs just are not up to speed on the technology

I use a shock collar in my buried fence system so I really dont use them in the field. Yard work, check cords (2 needed) a strong stakeout and a heavy duty pinch collar and thick leather collar, just like delmar described.

[DogNewbie]

but the first time my pup ran into a deer

Whoa is for this. Worked before shock collars, still does guess the dogs just are not up to speed on the technology

I use a shock collar in my buried fence system so I really dont use them in the field. Yard work, check cords (2 needed) a strong stakeout and a heavy duty pinch collar and thick leather collar, just like delmar described.

I'd assume the average 5 - 6 month old pup isn't going to be completely whoa broke. Especially when they encounter their first deer. Personally, for my pup, we were still doing very short training sessions at 5 months and mostly working on come. He couldn't handle much more than that. He was whoaing on food at that point and the command was introduced in the yard, but no way was he whoa broke.

[MHWH]

I am no pro trainer but I need to comment.

In any discussion about e-collars people who use them try to convince those who
do not that because the dog is happy when he sees the collar that he is totally OK with it.

I don't think that is the case. I think he associates it with going out, running, etc.
Does this mean he is totally OK with it, I doubt that. They know that thing is what they get the
sting from. And most know it comes from you, the trainer/owner.

I have done it both ways and much prefer doing it without. I don't train for trials of any kind.
I do have a dog that comes when called, heals when told, whoas when signaled, etc. Is he perfect?
Nope. But he is quite a bird finder.

Bill Tarrant (dog writer for many years for Field and Stream, and author of many training books) said
it so well, "Train in such a manner as to leave as much dog in the dog as possible." I like the results better
sans e-collar.

JMHO

Mike

[DogNewbie]

I am no pro trainer but I need to comment.

In any discussion about e-collars people who use them try to convince those who
do not that because the dog is happy when he sees the collar that he is totally OK with it.

I don't think that is the case. I think he associates it with going out, running, etc.
Does this mean he is totally OK with it, I doubt that. They know that thing is what they get the
sting from. And most know it comes from you, the trainer/owner.

I have done it both ways and much prefer doing it without. I don't train for trials of any kind.
I do have a dog that comes when called, heals when told, whoas when signaled, etc. Is he perfect?
Nope. But he is quite a bird finder.

Bill Tarrant (dog writer for many years for Field and Stream, and author of many training books) said
it so well, "Train in such a manner as to leave as much dog in the dog as possible." I like the results better
sans e-collar.

JMHO

Mike

I agree that the dog's happiness stems from it's association with happy time and should not be interrupted as the dog being ok with being shocked and I can see how my first comment would come off as so. Rather I believe excitement over the collar is an indication that the dog has created a positive association with the collar thus making it more difficult for the dog to associate a negative stimulation with the collar, which in turn keeps the dog from becoming collar wise. Instead, the negative stimulation is associated with the dog's lack of obedience, same as a tug of the cc. The dog associating the stim with me is fine...what's not ok is the dog associating the stim with the collar because then you become dependent on it.

[birddogger]

Now how would you use it

Um well to be truthful I dont use em. I train the dogs, they all come on my command, all kennel up on my command, heel, whoa etc by my command. I use the Delmar Smith method. When I first started training dogs and horses didnt have any shock collars. I see lots of folks in the field use em tho, makes their dog fun off till stimulation quits. guy hollars shoots at dog etc. Saw one guy take a 2 year old setter lift dog over his head and slam it to the ground. I had my 9 year old nephew with me, that dog was on a point near me. Nephew is married now has one kid and 4 years of duty as a Marine this was awhile ago. I left that guy right there.....

Dont have to shock a dog if you do yer work and get it trained up right.

Mark, of course you don't have to have an e-collar to train a dog and for the people who want no part of them, that is fine. But I have a feeling that you have never seen one used properly and the others who are against them have probably had a bad experience where they were used. There is certainly nothing wrong with them, when used properly and can be a very helpful tool. I do a lot of my training the old fashion way too but when I find something that is helpful and IMO works better, I use it. The e-collar is one of those things for me.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I agree that the dog's happiness stems from it's association with happy time and should not be interrupted as the dog being ok with being shocked and I can see how my first comment would come off as so. Rather I believe excitement over the collar is an indication that the dog has created a positive association with the collar thus making it more difficult for the dog to associate a negative stimulation with the collar, which in turn keeps the dog from becoming collar wise. Instead, the negative stimulation is associated with the dog's lack of obedience, same as a tug of the cc. The dog associating the stim with me is fine...what's not ok is the dog associating the stim with the collar because then you become dependent on it.

+1

Charlie

[Elkhunter]

I am no pro trainer but I need to comment.

In any discussion about e-collars people who use them try to convince those who
do not that because the dog is happy when he sees the collar that he is totally OK with it.

I don't think that is the case. I think he associates it with going out, running, etc.
Does this mean he is totally OK with it, I doubt that. They know that thing is what they get the
sting from. And most know it comes from you, the trainer/owner.

I have done it both ways and much prefer doing it without. I don't train for trials of any kind.
I do have a dog that comes when called, heals when told, whoas when signaled, etc. Is he perfect?
Nope. But he is quite a bird finder.

Bill Tarrant (dog writer for many years for Field and Stream, and author of many training books) said
it so well, "Train in such a manner as to leave as much dog in the dog as possible." I like the results better
sans e-collar.

JMHO

Mike

If you use an e collar correctly there should be no difference.

[TRoberts]

A e-collar never trained anything..... PLEASE get some help and learn to use it correctly if you don't know how or are unsure. There are lots of folks that would help you. Used correctly they can do a great service in breaking an undesirable habit before it becomes a habit.

A dog will mind and respect you if he is treated with love (tuff ,never cruel, sometimes) , kindness and respect. Use your collar wisely and it will be your friend but it is not a shortcut. Get control of your dog and the rest is bred into him. Get him into birds and then more birds... he will do the rest for you.

That is a fine looking puppy, good luck with him. Congrats.

P.S. Happy B'Day!!!!!!!!

[ibbowhunting]

A e collar should be used for nothing more then getting the dogs attention and safety if they made a collar that when you push the button is said pay attention to your owner thats all i would need imo a dog has a one track mind and in the field a young dog and handler are rarely on the same track once i have the dogs attention they will follow any command they where previously trained. but if i have the choice to zap the crap out of my dog or letting her run on to a busy roadway let the zaping begin. in the past i never zap my dog good enough to get a negitve body response, i was taught to try the collar setting on myself(not around my neck just on my arm) before i use them on my dog. collars of today have so many settings theres a right setting for every dog and a panic button for times you wished you had a 100 yd check cord. in my opinion e collars are not bad,just depends on whos holdn the remote. just my opinion, i'm just a nobody from nowheresville

[markj]

I'd assume the average 5 - 6 month old pup isn't going to be completely whoa broke

Then you continue with the check cord until broke I am old fashioned. IO put one on my arm, hit the jolt and said a few words cant put here. I do not harm my dogs, dont toe or ear pinch. I wait till the yare 1 year old then go to the training. A pup is a pup same as a young kid, "sure you can take a boy out cuttin wood, but he wont work like a adult" is Delamrs way of thinking and I kinda follow that. But hey use what you wish if it works for ya.

I just dont use em like that. I got pics of pheasant limits week after week after week some before 10:00 with my dogs. Now I am starting a new pup on trials, lets see if my methods can do it or not.

[rinker]

This thread has somehow turned in to a debate about the use of electric collars. A dog can certainly be trained with out an ecollar, dogs were being trained long before an ecollar was even imagined. I use an ecollar but I do not care what anyone else does, if training with out one is working for you, I am thrilled for you.

I do think that the argument that has been given in this thread for not using one is ridiculous. Delmar Smith wrote a book called 'Electronic Collar Gun Dog Training with Delmar Smith', he is not anti-ecollar. Modern ecollars have variable intensities, you can put it on your arm and you will not feel the lowest intensity, the highest intensity will be very uncomfortable and there is every intensity level in between these two. Raising a dog over your head and slamming it on the ground has nothing to do with ecollars.

I use an ecollar and I think that if it used properly it is a tremendous tool, and is not abusive in any way. Certainly it can be used in an abusive way but you are not getting any training done if you use it in this way.

[DogNewbie]

I'd assume the average 5 - 6 month old pup isn't going to be completely whoa broke

Then you continue with the check cord until broke I am old fashioned. IO put one on my arm, hit the jolt and said a few words cant put here. I do not harm my dogs, dont toe or ear pinch. I wait till the yare 1 year old then go to the training. A pup is a pup same as a young kid, "sure you can take a boy out cuttin wood, but he wont work like a adult" is Delamrs way of thinking and I kinda follow that. But hey use what you wish if it works for ya.

I just dont use em like that. I got pics of pheasant limits week after week after week some before 10:00 with my dogs. Now I am starting a new pup on trials, lets see if my methods can do it or not.

When was the last time you put one on your arm because the ones today are such a mild nic I can't even feel the first two levels. I honestly believe that, if used correctly in training you are not harming the dog by shocking it any more than you are harming it by tugging at the cc. It's simply a different stimulation. The first time my pup felt it he just sat down and scratched at his neck. He showed no signs of stress. Just seemed like something was tickling his neck and bugging him. I wouldn't exactly say that falls under the "harming my dog" category. If my dog is running for the road, however, I will increase the stim level to a point of pain for the dog instead of letting him get run over. Has this ever happened? No, and I don't think it will because, like you, I still had to train my pup using the cc and then, once the pup understands the command you can overlay the ecollar nic to the cc tug and teach the pup that they mean the same thing. I can't remember the last time I had to use the ecollar on my pup to get him to come or heel, but it's still a great tool to have if he does decide to blow me off at 100+ yards.

Also, I don't think you're system creates an inferior dog by any means. I'm not sure what consistent phez limits has to do with ecollar training? I would however like to see some of those pics!

[chukarmandoo]

This is a funny thread. The OP was just showing how good his pup is and added that he is going to go to the next level and get a e-collar. So from my point of view that is just fine. Next we'll be talking about tail-docking! I do use a collar and yes I use a cc. In todays world you all the tools you can. If I only used a cc than I probibily would only have one dog meaning for me I can bring them along a little faster. Reason is, because I can put them on the ground without having to worry about everthing that can happen to a pup on the loose. It's all about fun. If things get a little out of hand he still has that looong leash on him. Another thing a collar with a buzzer or tone is the neatest for me. If I train him with it I never have to yell at him when I want him to turn when he's 500 yds out. Dan

[chukarmandoo]

P.S. I trained my kids without a e-collar. But that took over twenty years and a lot of pain

[markj]

So since I use one for my fence boudary would it confuse the dog if I used one in the field? That is my primary concern.

Just voiced my opinion not wanting a arguement. Replied to those replied to me.....

[ezzy333]

but the first time my pup ran into a deer

Whoa is for this. Worked before shock collars, still does guess the dogs just are not up to speed on the technology

I use a shock collar in my buried fence system so I really dont use them in the field. Yard work, check cords (2 needed) a strong stakeout and a heavy duty pinch collar and thick leather collar, just like delmar described.

Mark,
Staying in the yard was accomplished before shock fences. And I have never seen a 6 month old puppy in full flight chasing a deer or any other exciting animal stop when you tell them Whoa.
Somehow we have lost the fact that we train the same things we used to but we have tools today that make it a whole lot easier today than it used to be. When we use them it is to our advantage and it produces the same results we use to get with the tools you mentioned. We have progressed and there is no need to drive a horse and buggy when you have a car in the garage but either will get you to town.

Ezzy

[DogNewbie]

So since I use one for my fence boudary would it confuse the dog if I used one in the field? That is my primary concern.

Just voiced my opinion not wanting a arguement. Replied to those replied to me.....

In the field the dogs learn that the nic means obey the command. My pup got confused when I started to over lay whoa because the nic was always associated with commands that involved him moving in my direction (come and heel) so when I said whoa and nic'd him his first reaction was to come straight to me. But after the second training session with the collar he understood that nic = command. So, I would assume that your dog will eventually figure out the difference between yard nic and training nic. I also wouldn't be surprised if the fence nic actually felt different than the collar nic.

[Redfishkilla]

IMO, you could have Frio steady enough to walk 100+ yards while he's on point with about 8 pigeons, a launcher, and two hours. 30 minute sessions with 2-3 birds per session might be a little better but it sounds like he's ready to steady up, assuming the birds he finds are really spooky. All this can be done without opening your mouth too. Once he's steady on the pigeons, it's time for wild quail. I'm no expert, but I think pen raised birds do more harm than good for young dogs.

[markj]

Them shock collars sure are not cheap. I may stay with my method .

[birddogger]

Them shock collars sure are not cheap. I may stay with my method .

I hear ya Mark, but there are some good ones that are less expensive that may have a little less range and don't have all the bells and whistles that the more expensive ones have, but I sure wouldn't waste my money on a "cheap" one.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

Them shock collars sure are not cheap. I may stay with my method .

They are sure hard to justify for one dog, I agree. I went for years with out one because of the proice, but will admit if you get one you will probably never be without one. They sure make things a lot safer and easier for the dog and me.

Ezzy

[rollick]

markj wrote:So since I use one for my fence boudary would it confuse the dog if I used one in the field? That is my primary concern.

I use both with no confused dog whatsoever. Good Luck and HAVE FUN!

[cohanzick creek]

nice looking pup

[DonF]

I am no pro trainer but I need to comment.

In any discussion about e-collars people who use them try to convince those who
do not that because the dog is happy when he sees the collar that he is totally OK with it.

I don't think that is the case. I think he associates it with going out, running, etc.
Does this mean he is totally OK with it, I doubt that. They know that thing is what they get the
sting from. And most know it comes from you, the trainer/owner.

I have done it both ways and much prefer doing it without. I don't train for trials of any kind.
I do have a dog that comes when called, heals when told, whoas when signaled, etc. Is he perfect?
Nope. But he is quite a bird finder.

Bill Tarrant (dog writer for many years for Field and Stream, and author of many training books) said
it so well, "Train in such a manner as to leave as much dog in the dog as possible." I like the results better
sans e-collar.

JMHO

Mike

Actually I think that was a Delmar Smith quote that Bill put in his book. The idea is to "train the dog without taking anything out of it".

[proudag08]

Well boys and girls its that time again. Just wanted to give an update on my boy Frio and let everyone know I was still alive. I know you all were very concerned. Its been a pretty busy couple of months with work and other things so I havent been posting much, just lurking when I get the chance.

Here is a picture I took while "training" with the breeder and a couple of guys around my area.

These next two I took while out on a evening run through the wild flowers as a storm was rolling in. Such a handsome boy he is...




My wife and I just got back from 2.5 weeks in Bangladesh on a mission trip and had to leave this guy behind with our parents (equal time to be fair... ha ha ha) As you can see... he really wanted to go!!!


All in all I am pleased with where he is so far. He has basic house manners down. We are still working on being calm when company comes over. He knows basic obedience commands and for the most part behaves. He is currently 10 months and I am trying to do some research on trainers in my area to send him to. I have some emails out right now and am waiting on replies. Although I am sure there is no way to count all the mistakes I have made so far, I know that Frio and I are both having a blast.

Until next time...

[TexasAggie09]

I know i already told you this, but if you are looking into trainers in the DFW market, you need to give Calvin Blackburn a call. You can find his website on line, but if you have any questions you can PM me and I would be happy to answer them.

I am glad to see your pup is doing well.

TA'09

[deke]

when my dog was a pup we put his collar on him for training so that he would get used to it. I only ever shocked him a few times and everytime it was for him stepping onto the road. This year we will be reinforcing "come" with the collar, even though he comes everytime sometimes he hesitates. My other dog however was not trained to hunt and was a family dog for many years, before he moved in with me. Now he hunts, but needs a lot of correction out in the field.