Broke Or Not Broke

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:56 pm

Ruff you darn well know this thread was started by someone in the united states. A broke dog will not rip out a bird no matter what command you give them.... Why would you.ever want a dog to flush the bird for you. Yada Yada Yada running phesant bla bla walkihg grouse ... Remember a good dog will pin them argument. Yea a good dog will pin them after you relocate them and allow.them to get closer. Not rip a bird out. Remeber polnting breed. Walking point means the handler doesn't know how to stop the dog from.creeping. now if you release them from point so they can relocate and then they pin the bird it is more practical. .

Versatile has nothing to do with flushing. We leave that for retrievers and spanials.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:12 pm

Ruffshooter wrote: Don are you going to be okay?

I guess not! I'll get some sleep and start over tomorrow.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:15 pm

slistoe wrote:When it comes to dogs, broke is broke. The only confusion comes from folks who don't have a broke dog and want to make it sound like they have something so they make up stuff like "broke to wing" etc. Either the dog is broke, or it isn't. What can be more simple than that?

Well said buddy! Hope your gonna be allright too!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:37 pm

There is no confusion in my mind what a broke dog is. According to some people, broke is whatever a particular field trial rules state. Although, NAVHDA wouldn't consider those dogs broke according to their standards or maybe even a different FT venue would have different rules as to what a broke dog is. Also, forget about the upland hunter who trains his dog to perform the way he wants, depending on the type of birds and/or terrain he is hunting. For example, he allows his dog to relocate on running birds [even though he can stop him at any time] because it is to his advantage and is a beautiful thing to watch.....Forget it, that dog is not broke because that goes against FT rules! The bottom line is the word "broke" is still subjective and I don't see anything confusing about it.

Charlie

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:50 am

birddogger wrote:There is no confusion in my mind what a broke dog is. According to some people, broke is whatever a particular field trial rules state. Although, NAVHDA wouldn't consider those dogs broke according to their standards or maybe even a different FT venue would have different rules as to what a broke dog is. Also, forget about the upland hunter who trains his dog to perform the way he wants, depending on the type of birds and/or terrain he is hunting. For example, he allows his dog to relocate on running birds [even though he can stop him at any time] because it is to his advantage and is a beautiful thing to watch.....Forget it, that dog is not broke because that goes against FT rules! The bottom line is the word "broke" is still subjective and I don't see anything confusing about it.

Charlie

Very well said. I believe it to be fact that as far as training goes that the akc master hunt and the navhda VC have the farthest trained dogs. If a dog just runs huge and is steady to wing and shot it is not a broke dog by my personal standards. But it suites the handler, especially when they are winning broke dog stakes like a handful of me and Scott's dogs have (mostly Scott's). Between us we have had one all-age dog, four shooting dogs (0ne RU Ch), and three NSTRA dogs. We understant and appreciate the value's of all venues and we can differentiate the judging between the venues.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:12 am

ultracarry wrote:Ruff you darn well know this thread was started by someone in the united states. A broke dog will not rip out a bird no matter what command you give them.... Why would you.ever want a dog to flush the bird for you. Yada Yada Yada running phesant bla bla walkihg grouse ... Remember a good dog will pin them argument. Yea a good dog will pin them after you relocate them and allow.them to get closer. Not rip a bird out. Remeber polnting breed. Walking point means the handler doesn't know how to stop the dog from.creeping. now if you release them from point so they can relocate and then they pin the bird it is more practical. .

Versatile has nothing to do with flushing. We leave that for retrievers and spanials.

A dog will do whatever you train it to do and many people train their's to flush on command when hunting. And self relocating is common with good dogs with experience in the field if they have been hunting pheasants or Grouse. I think everyone still needs to realize you can train a dog to do whatever you like and when it does it is broke to your standard.

But the most common usage is broke to the field trial standard.

Ezzy

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:05 am

Ron R wrote:Very well said. I believe it to be fact that as far as training goes that the akc master hunt and the navhda VC have the farthest trained dogs.

A statement like that leads me to believe you know nothing about AKC gun dog stakes? There is not a whole lot of difference in the requirements for either the gun dog or the master hunter. Any dog running a brace that might place in a gun dog stake would also pass the master hunter. On the other hand, not all that many master hunter's would be able to place in a gun dog stake for no reason other than they were over trained; they show way to much dependent on the handler in deciding what cover to go to.

I have no idea what is required of a NAVHDA VC dog. I have no idea of what you really consider a broke dog. Problem is you want to decide that by your own rules. Only in field trials are the rules consistent. In the hunting world, seem's everyoner want's to decide for themselves what broke/finished means and means different depending on who you talk to.

So, is 1+1=2, 1+1=6 or 1+1=4? Or all right depending on who you talk to?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:34 am

I really get confused and or fascinated by all these comparisons. Pointing dogs can and have been successfully trained to flush on command, in my experience, it is easier than keeping one steady to the fall and release for retrieve, the release is simply one step earlier. I have said it before, I believe all dogs are recovering chasers.

I want to be on record for the purposes of these discussions; I couldn't care less what anyone else labels their dog or how they use the darned thing...and as far as what someone tells me about their dog...I don't believe them anyway, I am inclined to nod politely and congratulate them. I have to see something or have someone I trust, or a system I trust, vouch for the quality of the animal or I assume it is just about like most and its in the middle. FWIW, I have said before that I believe I can take most well bred modern pointing dogs and get an AKC master hunter title if I was willing to invest the time. I am not sure I can say the same thing about all levels of the NAVHDA game. They do some pretty advanced and disciplined stuff, and I find it rather impressive.

I think we all have to choose what suits us and while I am committed to and a strong believer in breeding to the extremes in gun dogs, it is not a trait I care for in humans. The over the top wannabe that hitches his or her wagon to a person or system and not only follows blindly but argues vehemently from a shallow base of experience, is as equally irritating as the overplayed redneck persona that confronts a difference in opinion or masks the embarrassment of ignorance with some type of baseless challenge, as is the elitist that has forgotten what its like to be new.

Ron asked what appeared to be a simple question and I believe most people answered it in one way or another that broke is in the eye of the beholder...and frankly, unless I have put down some cabbage and agreed to some rules, I am down with that. Somehow though it becomes a debate where an accountant from Shreveport tries to convince a clerk from the Walmart lingerie department in Pocatello that they are using an analogous word incorrectly.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:56 am

"a clerk from the Walmart lingerie department in Pocatello"

Chukar you know some people all too well.... Guess thats what happens when you change sizes before and after hunting season.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:27 pm

So, is 1+1=2, 1+1=6 or 1+1=4? Or all right depending on who you talk to?

Now you know math is not subjective or debatable, however, almost anything to do with gun dogs is subjective, and not necessarily who you talk to but also depending on the venue, locality, breed of dog or whatever. Your 1+1 analogy makes no sense. But to tell you the truth I really don't care what "broke" means

Charlie

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:57 am

DonF wrote:A statement like that leads me to believe you know nothing about AKC gun dog stakes?

My point is they are very well trained dogs but thanks for the insult.

Upland Point · Post by **Upland Point** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:27 am

ultracarry wrote:Someone's signature says it best... There broke until they break. I have always looked at that and laughed because it couldn't be more true.

Broke - went through breaking process.

thats the best

TRoberts · Post by **TRoberts** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:07 pm

A broke dog is a trained dog.

Broke is steady to flush and the dog brings the bird to hand or puts it in a general location.......everything else is lipstick on the pig. No offense to the field trialers....but the the old time and modern southern trainers brake their dogs to flush and bringing the bird to your general location or hand. Most of the time it just depends on hot the day was. When it it 85/90 degress the dog will leave the bird at your feet or hand and go to find another bird to hunt. Hot weather and feathers suck! You can disagree but that is the way it is. Those dogs were and are preformers, working their arses off to bring the birds to the hunter.

A good bird dog finds birds and retrieves them. The rest you make him do is just cosmetics. Just Me and my Humble Ancestors opinion !!! LOL!

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:00 pm

birddogger wrote:
So, is 1+1=2, 1+1=6 or 1+1=4? Or all right depending on who you talk to?
Now you know math is not subjective or debatable, however, almost anything to do with gun dogs is subjective, and not necessarily who you talk to but also depending on the venue, locality, breed of dog or whatever. Your 1+1 analogy makes no sense. But to tell you the truth I really don't care what "broke" means

Charlie

A good example of subject to interpretation & debatable. 1+1 = 11.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:38 pm

I have always considered a broke dog one that is steady until released. That release can be a tap or verbal.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:33 pm

TRoberts wrote:A broke dog is a trained dog.

Broke is steady to flush and the dog brings the bird to hand or puts it in a general location.......everything else is lipstick on the pig. No offense to the field trialers....but the the old time and modern southern trainers brake their dogs to flush and bringing the bird to your general location or hand. Most of the time it just depends on hot the day was. When it it 85/90 degress the dog will leave the bird at your feet or hand and go to find another bird to hunt. Hot weather and feathers suck! You can disagree but that is the way it is. Those dogs were and are preformers, working their arses off to bring the birds to the hunter.

A good bird dog finds birds and retrieves them. The rest you make him do is just cosmetics. Just Me and my Humble Ancestors opinion !!! LOL!

So a dog that would bring the bird only part way back or leave a bird close your feet is considered a trained dog to you? I could understand that when you are playing a game where you shoot the bird with a cap gun, but in a hunting situation I would say you have serious holes in your training.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:11 pm

Just what he let's the dog get away with and finds it acceptable. At least he didn't say the dog would get tired of standing and sit or.lay down. Could also be worse and let the dog flush or try to catch a bird.

There are different levels of broke (and not specifics like whoa broke....) Green broke, broke, dead broke.... It's as easy as that. One the dog has completed the process but needs reminders to back, stand after shot, stand after another birds shot for a different dog, etc... Broke does those things reliably but will need to be reminded occasionally and dead broke needs reminders once in a long while.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm

ultracarry wrote:Just what he let's the dog get away with and finds it acceptable. At least he didn't say the dog would get tired of standing and sit or.lay down. Could also be worse and let the dog flush or try to catch a bird.

There are different levels of broke (and not specifics like whoa broke....) Green broke, broke, dead broke.... It's as easy as that. One the dog has completed the process but needs reminders to back, stand after shot, stand after another birds shot for a different dog, etc... Broke does those things reliably but will need to be reminded occasionally and dead broke needs reminders once in a long while.

Good post.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:26 pm

TRoberts wrote:A broke dog is a trained dog.

Broke is steady to flush and the dog brings the bird to hand or puts it in a general location.......everything else is lipstick on the pig. No offense to the field trialers....but the the old time and modern southern trainers brake their dogs to flush and bringing the bird to your general location or hand. Most of the time it just depends on hot the day was. When it it 85/90 degress the dog will leave the bird at your feet or hand and go to find another bird to hunt. Hot weather and feathers suck! You can disagree but that is the way it is. Those dogs were and are preformers, working their arses off to bring the birds to the hunter.

A good bird dog finds birds and retrieves them. The rest you make him do is just cosmetics. Just Me and my Humble Ancestors opinion !!! LOL!

IMO, you make a good point.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:29 pm

BigShooter wrote:
birddogger wrote:
So, is 1+1=2, 1+1=6 or 1+1=4? Or all right depending on who you talk to?
Now you know math is not subjective or debatable, however, almost anything to do with gun dogs is subjective, and not necessarily who you talk to but also depending on the venue, locality, breed of dog or whatever. Your 1+1 analogy makes no sense. But to tell you the truth I really don't care what "broke" means

Charlie
A good example of subject to interpretation & debatable. 1+1 = 11.

OK, you got me.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:05 pm

For those of you that think math isn't subjective or debateable.

Three guys went to a trial and decided to share a hotel room. They had a special on for the trial people and the clerk told them it was 33 dollars for the room. So each paid 11 dollars and went to their room. The night clerk comes on duty and noticed that the three had paid 33 dollars but the discounted room was really supposed to be 28 dollars. So he gives the bellbor 5 dollar bills to take up to the room to give back to them. Knowing this wasn't going to come out even he got to the room and gave each of the three a dollar back and put the other two dollars in his pocket. This means the three guys only paid 10 dollars a piece which is 30 dollars, the bellboy has two in his pocket, which makes it 32 dollars. So where is the other dollar the three guys had originally paid 33 dollars but now there is their 30 plus the two the bellboy still has. Maybe 2 doesn't always equal 2.

Ezzy

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:13 pm

ezzy333 wrote:For those of you that think math isn't subjective or debateable.

Ezzy

Try this one:

6÷2(1+2)=?

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:23 pm

Ezzy,

I just follow the cash. The three guys are out $30 cash. The hotel has $28 cash & the Bell Boy has $2 cash for a total of $30 cash.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:26 pm

Grange wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:For those of you that think math isn't subjective or debateable.

Ezzy
Try this one:

6÷2(1+2)=?

Let's write it this way: 6 / (2x3) = 1

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:33 pm

Math kidding aside, I don't think the three trialers sharing a room were "Broke" 'cause they each had $1.00 in their pocket. Even though I'm pretty sure they would've been "trained" they also may not have been dead broke to the flush!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:40 pm

BigShooter wrote:Math kidding aside, I don't think the three trialers sharing a room were "Broke" 'cause they each had $1.00 in their pocket. Even though I'm pretty sure they would've been "trained" they also may not have been dead broke to the flush!

I knew if we splained it right someone would get it.

Maybe we can show 6 divided by 2 =3+2=5 times 2=10 minus 2 = 8 Darn did it again 6 really equals 8 Maybe broke doesn't equal broke but just badly bent.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:23 pm

OK, even math is subjective and debateable. At least for some. :roll:

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:22 pm

Grange wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:For those of you that think math isn't subjective or debateable.

Ezzy
Try this one:

6÷2(1+2)=?

BEDMAS... 9

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:28 pm

Sharon wrote:BEDMAS... 9

BEDMAS = a convention for working a formula = work left to right = brackets, exponents, division & multiplication, addition & subtraction, which also equals BEMDSA. However the misinterpretation comes in because some folks don't realize the 2 written next to a bracket makes it an exponent of (1+2). The formula looks a little more clear written thus: 6 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 2(1+2)
The operation next to the parenthesis is always completed first. However the sole purpose of writing a formula in an inane & misleading manner is to create endless debate. Much like the posts to this website.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:04 pm

I got lost a long way back in this thread ! I'm hopeless at maths but I always seem to know when someone is trying to diddle me out of money !

I never use the word "broke." It fell out of favour here almost 100 years ago. I'm not saying we no longer "break" dogs, we just don't call it that any more ...... it's bad for the public image. :roll:

Bill T.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:12 pm

Wait just a second here... exactly how long were the tails on the dogs those three guys were trailing??? cuz THAT tells ya all ya need to know about where the money went!

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:27 pm

OH... AND MY DOG IS HOUSEBROKE... and that's about it...

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:47 pm

BigShooter wrote:the 2 written next to a bracket makes it an exponent of (1+2). ............

Say what? Talk about inane and misleading.
But you do have the right answer to the problem even if you don't know why.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:01 pm

slistoe wrote: Say what? Talk about inane and misleading.
But you do have the right answer to the problem even if you don't know why.

I knew I had the right answer nine or ten posts ago. I intended to write coefficient instead of exponent. Perhaps you've never done anything like that before. The post above continues a troubling pattern marked by a propensity to take single items or terms out of context for the purpose of self-aggrandizement. Could you try a little harder to be more demeaning & irritating to others? It's so appreciated.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:32 pm

and my English Pointer is "Canoe Broke"... and let me tell you, THAT is really something for an EP!!!

and she can count to 5 in dog treats... :roll: so... what were we discussing again???

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:46 pm

My dogs are crated at night & broke to my sleeping habits. It doesn't matter if I'm up at 6 am or sleep in late on the weekend. You won't hear a peep out of them until after they hear me get up.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:48 pm

Good Lord man! Please don't tell my wife you can train a dog to do that!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:54 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:Good Lord man! Please don't tell my wife you can train a dog to do that!!!

Thats the way mine work also. Even the one that sleep on the bed waits till you stir before he moves.

Ezzy

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:59 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:Good Lord man! Please don't tell my wife you can train a dog to do that!!!

Many women spend their whole lives trying to train their significant others. You have to turn the tables and start with training your spouse or significant other. Whether you're successful or not (most likely not), afterwards dog training will seem like a piece of cake because after all most canines are biddable.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:00 pm

Oh man... if word about this gets out, I'm screwed!

My dog looks out the window in the morning until the retired mailman that lives next door goes out to fill his birdfeeder! Then she goes nuts to go out and get the treats he has for her! LOL! If we do need to sleep in tho, we just kennel her for the night and she sleeps in just fine then, cuz she can't see out the window...

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:02 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
SHORTFAT wrote:Good Lord man! Please don't tell my wife you can train a dog to do that!!!
Thats the way mine work also. Even the one that sleep on the bed waits till you stir before he moves.

Ezzy

Yep.