Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
I am trying to teach my female pointer WHOA, I was able to teach my male fairly easy, but with that being said he is a totally diff. dog than my female. She is hard headed sometimes. My methodology is yard work with a half hitch. I will walk a bit then say whoa and tug on the lead. She sometime will stop without the tug, she sometimes will keep walking or just start turning around, she will stop about 5 out of 10 times. I have only worked with her for a couple of days, so maybe my expectations are a bit skewed, my male just picked it up really quick. I only have the two so I do not really know what to expect. Does anyone have a better method, or advice. Thanks in advance!
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Cajun Casey
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Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Whoa post.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Switch from a half hitch to a prong collar.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786
Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.
Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
I would agree with the whoa post. ALA Delmar Smith. I do not understand the Rick Smith version but his dad's version has worked on a lot of dogs for me. Using the Delmar version, you take the dog to the end of the cord on the post, tell it whoa and step away in front of it. It could pitch a fit but I've never had that happen much. Doing it that way. you will have the dog caught between you and the post, it is not possible for the dog to go anywhere and there is no half hitcdh around the flank to upset the dog. Delmar use's a pinch collar coming from the post. I have found the pinch collar is not necessary. Try and find the Delmar Smith book and it describes it well. I would be happy to explain what I do if your intrested. But it is fairly long to explain, much faster to show you if you were close. I think I also have a bunch of photo's of the different step's from when I did it for some people on another site.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
OK Ben. Told you this morning I would do it but the computer went FUBAR on me. Working again now.
Before I even start I'll show you the knots I use and talk a min about check cord material. They are important and exactly as described in Delmar's book.
The check cord is made out of tight woven nylon with a solid core. It has to be fairly stiff and will stifen with use as it soaks up dirt and mud. It should be 20' long, reason being any longer get's difficult to control. Longest I've been able to control was 25' but I was training every day then. I am back to 20' now. It needs to have a snap on one end tied on with a bowline knot and the knot needs to be in a place where if you pull it up, it will be right under the dog's chin.
There is a reason for that. At some point your going to use that knot to get the dog to stop an improper action. That check cord,20', is hooked to a rear collar on the dog. Delmar used a pinch collar, I no longer do but rather either a proper sized choke or even another plain collar. It doesn't show in the photo above but Duke actually has two regular collar's on with the check cord hooked to the back one and then a loop in the other end goes around a post.
Then you also need some type leash on the front collar for you to hold. Delmar used another 20' check cord but I had a lot of trouble with it. My answer was to buy my check cord material in 30' length, cut off a 20' check cord and make the cc out of that 20' and use the remaining 10' to make a leash exactly like the check cord. That knot on the leash will be used early on to correct the dog with a bump under the chin.
Once you are here, walk your dog around a bit and then get ahold of the back collar and take the dog out to the end of the check cord. Do not let the dog run into it rather get there and stop the dog by hand. As soon as you have the dog stopped, step around in front of it. It will most likely struggle a bit but don't let it go back toward the post. Keep it where it's at by keeping your leash up snug. Keep in mind that what your doing is teaching the dog what you want, slamming into the end of the check cord has no use. Stop, stand still, go on.
It will probably be a couple moment's but the dog will quit struggling and stand still. Let it stop and then before it can start in again, release the dog and take it back toward the post and just walk around with it. You'll need to do this as much as it takes so that when you get the dog to the end of the cc, it will just stand there waiting to be released. Each time you stop the dog there try to get the dog standing a bit longer, it will. What you don't want to do is to make the dog stand early on so that it will move and need corrected. You do that and you set your dog up to fail, never set your dog up to fail. It will not take long and when you get to the end, the dog will just stop and wait. At that point, start ccing the dog inside the circle the cc makes to the whoa post. Work your way out toward the end of the main cc and as soon as you reach the end, give the whoa command and step in front of the dog. Timing is very important. You have to give the command before the main cc get's tight so pay more attention to the main cc untill you reach the end. Then when you are in front of the dog, it will stand there. Just a bit and get it moving again doing the same thing. At some point the dog is going to get a bit full of itself and move after the command was given and before the release. Right then let just a bit of slack in the leash and flip it up toward the dog. About the time the little wave you just made in the leash get's to the dog, pull the leash snug again and the knot will bump the dog under the chin. Try your best to time the knot bumping the dog and the command getting to the dog at the same time.
You keep doing that till the dog is standing there well and not hitting the end of the cc, it stop's when you give the whoa command. You will find out then that you can stop the dog while the cc is still loose on the ground. But when you try that, be very close to the end of the check cord. That way the stop from the post will be shortly after the command if not right then. Watch for that to happen and do it several more times. Look at Duke in this photo and notice the cc from the post is on the ground. That was the first time I got him stopped with a loose cc. Took about 15 minute's.
After that it is a process of continueing the same thing and as the dog stops well without movement, start looking to stop it even closer to the stake. When that is going well, Drive a couple stakes in the ground that the check cord can catch on. Remove the cc from the post and move it to the front collar. Move the shorter leash to the back collar. Now just check cord the dog around those stakes untill it come's right that the cc, dragging loose on the ground, will catch a post with you on one side and the dog on the other. When that cc starts to tighten a bit, give the whoa command and right after, flip the cc off the post and pull it snug to you. If the dog stops and stands still, do nothing and get the dog going again in a few moments. If the dog takes a step, bump it under the chin and give the command at the same time again. The leash is dragging on the back collar to replace the check cord I had on the post. I doubt that the dog can tell the difference of which one is where. The result is the same every time you give the whoa command. If you want to use an e-collar to bump the dog with the cords gone, let it wear it all thru the excerise's from the begining on. When you get to where we are now, turn it on and have the transmitter. Replace the bump with the knot with a nic from the collar. Be sure the collar is set right in advance. Have your dog away from this area and put the collar on it's lowest setting and nic the dog. You probably won't see any reaction from the dog. Move up in intensity a little at a time until when you nic it is obvoius from the dog it felt it but did not panic it. You'll just see the dog move it's head or eye's trying to figure out what happened. When you start to replace the cc with the e-collar, bump the dog with nic's untill it is standing still. Don't flip the cc off the stake untill that the dog is stopped and standing still. After this, move the dog away from the stakes and the post, remove the back collar and the leash and leave the front collar and let it drag the cc with the main collar. Now instead of using the cc at all, you'll nic the dog if it doesn't stop right away. nic, nic, nic stop, quit nicing. At this point start having the dog whoa now and then, do not make a grueling excerise out of it. You don't want to get the dog antisapating the command all the time. Just a couple of time's durning a session, get a good response those couple time's and let it go.
Hope this will help you. I've been doing this for a lot of years and with a lot of dog's. It's Delmar's system and if you keep at it and it never fails.
Before I even start I'll show you the knots I use and talk a min about check cord material. They are important and exactly as described in Delmar's book.
The check cord is made out of tight woven nylon with a solid core. It has to be fairly stiff and will stifen with use as it soaks up dirt and mud. It should be 20' long, reason being any longer get's difficult to control. Longest I've been able to control was 25' but I was training every day then. I am back to 20' now. It needs to have a snap on one end tied on with a bowline knot and the knot needs to be in a place where if you pull it up, it will be right under the dog's chin.
There is a reason for that. At some point your going to use that knot to get the dog to stop an improper action. That check cord,20', is hooked to a rear collar on the dog. Delmar used a pinch collar, I no longer do but rather either a proper sized choke or even another plain collar. It doesn't show in the photo above but Duke actually has two regular collar's on with the check cord hooked to the back one and then a loop in the other end goes around a post.
Then you also need some type leash on the front collar for you to hold. Delmar used another 20' check cord but I had a lot of trouble with it. My answer was to buy my check cord material in 30' length, cut off a 20' check cord and make the cc out of that 20' and use the remaining 10' to make a leash exactly like the check cord. That knot on the leash will be used early on to correct the dog with a bump under the chin.
Once you are here, walk your dog around a bit and then get ahold of the back collar and take the dog out to the end of the check cord. Do not let the dog run into it rather get there and stop the dog by hand. As soon as you have the dog stopped, step around in front of it. It will most likely struggle a bit but don't let it go back toward the post. Keep it where it's at by keeping your leash up snug. Keep in mind that what your doing is teaching the dog what you want, slamming into the end of the check cord has no use. Stop, stand still, go on.
It will probably be a couple moment's but the dog will quit struggling and stand still. Let it stop and then before it can start in again, release the dog and take it back toward the post and just walk around with it. You'll need to do this as much as it takes so that when you get the dog to the end of the cc, it will just stand there waiting to be released. Each time you stop the dog there try to get the dog standing a bit longer, it will. What you don't want to do is to make the dog stand early on so that it will move and need corrected. You do that and you set your dog up to fail, never set your dog up to fail. It will not take long and when you get to the end, the dog will just stop and wait. At that point, start ccing the dog inside the circle the cc makes to the whoa post. Work your way out toward the end of the main cc and as soon as you reach the end, give the whoa command and step in front of the dog. Timing is very important. You have to give the command before the main cc get's tight so pay more attention to the main cc untill you reach the end. Then when you are in front of the dog, it will stand there. Just a bit and get it moving again doing the same thing. At some point the dog is going to get a bit full of itself and move after the command was given and before the release. Right then let just a bit of slack in the leash and flip it up toward the dog. About the time the little wave you just made in the leash get's to the dog, pull the leash snug again and the knot will bump the dog under the chin. Try your best to time the knot bumping the dog and the command getting to the dog at the same time.
You keep doing that till the dog is standing there well and not hitting the end of the cc, it stop's when you give the whoa command. You will find out then that you can stop the dog while the cc is still loose on the ground. But when you try that, be very close to the end of the check cord. That way the stop from the post will be shortly after the command if not right then. Watch for that to happen and do it several more times. Look at Duke in this photo and notice the cc from the post is on the ground. That was the first time I got him stopped with a loose cc. Took about 15 minute's.
After that it is a process of continueing the same thing and as the dog stops well without movement, start looking to stop it even closer to the stake. When that is going well, Drive a couple stakes in the ground that the check cord can catch on. Remove the cc from the post and move it to the front collar. Move the shorter leash to the back collar. Now just check cord the dog around those stakes untill it come's right that the cc, dragging loose on the ground, will catch a post with you on one side and the dog on the other. When that cc starts to tighten a bit, give the whoa command and right after, flip the cc off the post and pull it snug to you. If the dog stops and stands still, do nothing and get the dog going again in a few moments. If the dog takes a step, bump it under the chin and give the command at the same time again. The leash is dragging on the back collar to replace the check cord I had on the post. I doubt that the dog can tell the difference of which one is where. The result is the same every time you give the whoa command. If you want to use an e-collar to bump the dog with the cords gone, let it wear it all thru the excerise's from the begining on. When you get to where we are now, turn it on and have the transmitter. Replace the bump with the knot with a nic from the collar. Be sure the collar is set right in advance. Have your dog away from this area and put the collar on it's lowest setting and nic the dog. You probably won't see any reaction from the dog. Move up in intensity a little at a time until when you nic it is obvoius from the dog it felt it but did not panic it. You'll just see the dog move it's head or eye's trying to figure out what happened. When you start to replace the cc with the e-collar, bump the dog with nic's untill it is standing still. Don't flip the cc off the stake untill that the dog is stopped and standing still. After this, move the dog away from the stakes and the post, remove the back collar and the leash and leave the front collar and let it drag the cc with the main collar. Now instead of using the cc at all, you'll nic the dog if it doesn't stop right away. nic, nic, nic stop, quit nicing. At this point start having the dog whoa now and then, do not make a grueling excerise out of it. You don't want to get the dog antisapating the command all the time. Just a couple of time's durning a session, get a good response those couple time's and let it go.
Hope this will help you. I've been doing this for a lot of years and with a lot of dog's. It's Delmar's system and if you keep at it and it never fails.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
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llewellinsetter
- Rank: Senior Hunter
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Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
The above post has by far helped me more than any other post yet. thank you so much
The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too. ~Samuel Butler
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Fantastic post Don. Thanks for taking the time to do that.
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uplandguide
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Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Great post for those that have not learned that technique!
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Jesse
Sire : DC Gambles Sam Man MH UT PR1
Dam : Friedelsheim's Greenwood Greta NA PR1
Jesse
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Wow, Thank you so much!
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
You guy's are more than welcome.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
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ibbowhunting
- Rank: Champion
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Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
great post thanks for taking the time to post it with pictures. at what age do you start using the whoa post on your pups
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carlrh42
- Rank: Just A Pup
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- Location: South TX and N.E.Penn
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
Well done!!!!
CRH
CRH
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
It just depends on the pup. Usually they let me know when they are ready. Enough pup has gone out so they pay attention better. Normally about a year +/-.ibbowhunting wrote:great post thanks for taking the time to post it with pictures. at what age do you start using the whoa post on your pups
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
I just came in from a walk teaching heel and whoa. I made a short 4' buddy stick out of 1 inch pvc pipe. It has worked wonders teaching heel and whoa. I walk the dog at heel and tell her whoa at the same time I snap her collar back, I then step out in front of her holding her in whoa position with the stick. After 2x with this I was able to lay the stick down and walk away from the dog at whoa. A gentle poke in the chest or a bump under the chin with the stick reminds her to what whoa means. I have been doing this for 2 weeks now and my dogs is standing for a few minutes while I walk around her and out in front of her. I made a 6 footer that I don't think I need now.
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kninebirddog
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Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16
This is the newer way that even Delmar is promoting in his edited DVD versions of his old videos
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16
This is the newer way that even Delmar is promoting in his edited DVD versions of his old videos
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Re: Attempting to teach WHOA; suggestions for correction please!
I used the Perfect start method and after only a couple days my dog is doing it great. The difference is he already knew the stay command well so I think transitioning to whoa was pretty easy. Initially he would just turn and come back to stand by my side but over a couple days he figured it out and stopped wherever he was. I've completely stopped using the stay command. After about a week now I can have him coming towards me from about 10-15yds away at a trot and whoa him. I have noticed though that after doing that a couple times he will start to anticipate it and just creep towards me knowing that he'll eventually have to whoa so to fix that I will occasionally have him come all the way to me which seems to work. I've been doing it without a check cord which is probably not a good idea but so far he's been pretty honest. I have not tried it when he's on a dead run or completely distracted.