Proven Dogs - Biddability or Training ?

[BigShooter]

We often tell folks interested in a pup to look at the sire & dam work if possible. What exactly will a newbie see when observing a sire or dam work that will help them make a decision one of the pups is likely to be biddable (easily trained by an amateur) versus just observing a dog that has been well trained by an experienced trainer? I know we tell them to find a reputable breeder & ask questions. We also tell them to check references ..... but without additional information what will they see in field work that allows them to differentiate between training & biddability (supposedly an inherited trait)?

[Ralph Ford]

The first thing I look at is whether the Sire and Dam are fat and out of shape. The next thing I look at is toe nails. With these two observations I am reasonably certain what kind of breeder I'm dealing with. If the dogs aren't fit, why watch them run anyway! The breeder isn't selecting by performance, just pedigree.

[Sharon]

It's the old chicken or the egg.

Biddable: willing to carry out the orders or wishes of another without protest; "too acquiescent to challenge authority". quote

A pup can be born with genes to make him/her biddable.
A pup can be born head strong but with training become more biddable.

[DonF]

How are you gonna know if what you see is the result of a great trainer or breeding? And how will you know if what you see is the result of a bad trainer or breeding?

If I were to go watch a parent or both parents, as long as the dog/dog's showed intrest in birds, I think I'd overlook the training end of it. I trust breeding.

[ezzy333]

Any action that is not an instinct is training. Biddability is not an action that can be seen but rather nothing more than the ability to be trained. If you can witness it, it is training.

Ezzy

[BigShooter]

Any action that is not an instinct is training. Biddability is not an action that can be seen but rather nothing more than the ability to be trained. If you can witness it, it is training.

Ezzy

So if an observer sees more training he/she sees more biddability? Can a high level of training make a fairly ordinary birddog look exceptional to a newbie buyer?

[ezzy333]

Any action that is not an instinct is training. Biddability is not an action that can be seen but rather nothing more than the ability to be trained. If you can witness it, it is training.

Ezzy

So if an observer sees more training he/she sees more biddability? Can a high level of training make a fairly ordinary birddog look exceptional to a newbie buyer?

No doubt about it. Not only to a newbie but for all of us. To know just how good a dog really is takes more than just watching it work once.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

It is virtually impossible to know the nature of a dog when observing it once whether it is an impeccably mannered dog or a rogue when observed. A poor trainer can make a rogue of the most acquiescent dog and a good trainer can train a mannered, happy worker from that which many decent trainers would wash out.
So, as Don says, worry about what matters - if the dog doesn't exhibit a love for birds and the game you won't likely get much to work with for all your training effort.

[SCT]

It is virtually impossible to know the nature of a dog when observing it once whether it is an impeccably mannered dog or a rogue when observed. A poor trainer can make a rogue of the most acquiescent dog and a good trainer can train a mannered, happy worker from that which many decent trainers would wash out.
So, as Don says, worry about what matters - if the dog doesn't exhibit a love for birds and the game you won't likely get much to work with for all your training effort.

+1

But IMO, if you have searched and found a breeding you like, find as many references as possible and talk to them at length about their pups from the same breeding (if you're looking at a copy breeding). Many breeders are "kennel blind" but most people that have gotten pups from them can be very honest.

[gotpointers]

It is virtually impossible to know the nature of a dog when observing it once whether it is an impeccably mannered dog or a rogue when observed. A poor trainer can make a rogue of the most acquiescent dog and a good trainer can train a mannered, happy worker from that which many decent trainers would wash out.
So, as Don says, worry about what matters - if the dog doesn't exhibit a love for birds and the game you won't likely get much to work with for all your training effort.

+2.

There's an old saying " you can teach a poodle to point a light bulb" a easy going biddable dog may be okay for a occasional weekend foot hunter. I want to see a bird crazy self hunter of a pup. Then i get it across to the pup that there's more of that good stuff when he works with me. Remember its easier to reel them in than get them to go out.

[Texasdogtrainer]

Any action that is not an instinct is training. Biddability is not an action that can be seen but rather nothing more than the ability to be trained. If you can witness it, it is training.

Ezzy

So if an observer sees more training he/she sees more biddability? Can a high level of training make a fairly ordinary birddog look exceptional to a newbie buyer?

The answer is yes and the intresting things is, ordinary dogs are more common.

[Buckeye_V]

A person who has seen a fair number of dogs performing the task you want to buy it for should be able to pick out characteristics they want. The training and biddability would be something very hard to discern by a newbie.

I would ask around for that trait.

[BigShooter]

When observing a well trained dog understand you're seeing the level of their training and not how easy it'd be for you to train the dog's pup to look like that. Although as the expression goes you can't make a silk purse of a sow's ear, a well trained ordinary dog can appear on the surface to be much more than it is. A poor analogy but a new coat of paint can affect a buyer to the point they may overlook other issues, in this case especially what it took to get any dog to their observed level of training. Sellers have little motivation to do anything but make their product as attractive to a buyer as possible. The buyer's job is to look beyond the glitz or lack thereof and as others have said, focus on what really matters. Don't be put off by the breeder that is not kennel blind & is honest enough to tell you what they'd like to improve in their line. Every dog has holes. If necessary, rely on others with more experience & no reason to talk up or down someone else's dogs. Learn about & focus on what's really important in a working birddog.

[zigzag]

Think about the kind of dog you would like. Maybe a hard driving barn burner is not the dog you have the time or dedication to train, or maybe that is exactly the dog you want. Biddabilty is in the eye of the owner or buyer. I think if you spent some time with the litter and watched them together you could find the hard headed alfa male and the subservent dog. I like something in the middle.