NBDC, NSTRA?

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:03 pm

OK, I don't want to start any problems just looking for answers from those with much more experience than me.

I have been watching the Nat. Bird Dog challenge (Championship) on TV recently. I hear them say these are the best dogs
in the country, or similar things on nearly every show. Yet, they allow pretty sloppy retrieves. All they need to do is get within one step of the handler, he then stretches out, grabs the bird from the dogs mouth, and off they go as quickly as possible.

I guess it sort of hit me when I was doing some retrieving drills with my Lab yesterday. I was running the baseball diamond set up, and directing the dog to one dummy, then the other. A young couple with kids saw this as they walked their greyhounds. They commented about how impressive it was to see how well trained my dog was. At that point he broke off a retrieve and ran over to greet their dogs. Yeah, he sort off lost a loft position there:).

Anyway, he comes to me with dummies, passes by on my right, turns around and comes up from behind and sits at my left hand, and waits for me to take the dummy, as he does with birds in the field also.

So. I know it is a timed event. But why allow such poor retrieves? People who know nothing about this will see this, hear their comments, and think these are really great dogs. (They may very well be wonderful, but this type of retrieve does not show it. )

Grabbing the bird and running off just does not reflect well on our sport of upland hunting. I just think this organization should look at this, and see that they could change the rules, and it would give non-hunters a better idea of what we actually do when out hunting.

Oh, I am assuming the NSTRA venue is similar. I believe that it was a NSTRA event that I observed one of the times I went to this type of event.

I would like to have a better opinion of this, but I don't. Help me understand, or at least get more details.

Thanks,

Mike

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Lol wait for the storm to hit on this one.

There are different levels of training and those levels are what the person or dog decides they are happy with. What I do if I don't like the rules: I go to where i do. I would agree with you to some extent but I also see dog work that I would not put up with on national TV. Some people call dogs broke, but in my opinion are no where close.

Some people call backing when its boarderline stealing point. It's just different dog work but they can say they are the best if they would like. Then when they see the dead broke, finished, solid dog with tons of style they can even be more impressed.

I made some great tips using my dog for people who had thought they had a broke dog before.... Then I changed thier mind.

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:16 pm

You're a lab guy watching pointing dogs, right? I want my pointing dog to run off and hunt quickly after making a nice retrieve, not sit and waste time next to me. In fact, I want em on point again before I can get the bird in my bag, even if they're 200 yards away again. Field trials and wild bird hunting both.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:44 pm

Redfishkilla wrote:You're a lab guy watching pointing dogs, right? I want my pointing dog to run off and hunt quickly after making a nice retrieve, not sit and waste time next to me. In fact, I want em on point again before I can get the bird in my bag, even if they're 200 yards away again. Field trials and wild bird hunting both.

+1 Although I do want my dogs to deliver to hand.

And any venue says they have the best dogs in the world. I know that they weren't on the show you were watching because my dogs were in my backyard, not on tv.

:roll:

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:22 pm

Redfish,

I have no reason to be in a hurry when hunting. A nice finished retrieve is icing on the cake to me. Getting
the birds picked up is the basics, and is most important. Not knocking pointers, but they are normally not
the best retrievers.

I have seen both pointing dog episodes and flushing dogs. All the retrieves were like I described, both in
flusher and pointer contests.

I am saying why not have rules that force you to train a full finished retrieve. Like was said here, why not
completely steady, and proper backing, no creeping, etc. when it comes to pointers?

I realize this may be because they want to make it so the "average" hunter sort of guy can compete. Well, OK , I guess.
It just leaves me a little cold when I see this and them claiming these are the best dogs around. Someone above
stated basically the same idea about pointers. I don't think it puts us, upland hunters, in the best light.

Mike

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:46 pm

There is also a good point with people who don't care if the pointer makes a retrieve to hand... Just find the bird. If I were a hunter only I wouldn't care if my pointing dog retrieved or got closer after it was released and pointed the dead bird again.

Seeing that I field trial and do hunt tests I require the delivery to hand... I don't see any point in the dog making a loop and holding though.

Just deliver the bird to me, ill kneel down and take the bird.

Being a retriever the dog isn't required to do much more then retrieve so I would make it do all sorts of wazoo things.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:57 pm

Everybody has their likes and dislikes. It is very hard to see where one is better than another. It is no more than training for what you like or will win. It isn't going to impress anyone to see a dog act like you want it too other than you and the few that agree with you. And that goes for everyone. You are making a mistake when you think everyone would be impressed with a dog trained to your standard. So lets let everyone have what they like or what gets the job done and accept that sometimes our personal likes and dislikes are just that, personal and not better.

Ezzy

Dieseldog8 · Post by **Dieseldog8** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:00 pm

I know I'm just a rookie on this forum but I know what you mean if there on tv they should be more proper in bringing back the bird if they are in fact " the best dogs in the world" but also you gotta tell yourself at the end of the day it's just a dog. Now I do hunt test and I'm just happy my dog brings the bird back within range because that's a pass for me and I'm happy with that. I'd rather have a dog make me take a couple of steps than just get the bird come half way drop it and keep hunting. Ive seen it many times or the dog drops the bird and mouths it. Happens all the time in hunt test. But I get what your saying they just come close grab it and off again but you also gotta think it is timed and it would be somewhat stressful being against other dogs and wanting your dog to win there has to be some pressure out there and don't really have time to steady your dog and all. Just my two cents. But really I do see where your coming from.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:11 pm

ezzy,

I sort of agree. But when it is on TV and the guy quickly stretches out, grabs the bird out of the dogs mouth, and rushes off,
it shows no respect for the birds. We should show some respect, he killed something. And, if it were not for these amazing birds we would not have hunting to enjoy. It just doesn't look as good as it should or could.

I understand we can all train our dog to level we like. If we like it, no one else should care. But, anyone can see this show.
I don't train a finished retrieve to impress people. I like it. It looks good to me, and I think shows a respect for the game animals we all pursue.

It is all way more than killing birds to me. I think most everyone here would agree they don't pursue these birds just to kill
or to put meat on the table. This show sort of looks like that to me.

Mike

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:28 pm

MHWH wrote:ezzy,

I sort of agree. But when it is on TV and the guy quickly stretches out, grabs the bird out of the dogs mouth, and rushes off,
it shows no respect for the birds. We should show some respect, he killed something. And, if it were not for these amazing birds we would not have hunting to enjoy. It just doesn't look as good as it should or could.

I understand we can all train our dog to level we like. If we like it, no one else should care. But, anyone can see this show.
I don't train a finished retrieve to impress people. I like it. It looks good to me, and I think shows a respect for the game animals we all pursue.

It is all way more than killing birds to me. I think most everyone here would agree they don't pursue these birds just to kill
or to put meat on the table. This show sort of looks like that to me.

Mike

I agree with respecting the birds, bt I see little disrepect in seeing how fast they can complete their format since it is judged on time. Disrespect to me takes place with how and when you shoot or not retrieving the bird. But once it is dead and found is see little to disrespect in the manner or speed with which it is delivered. Again, I see things with that format I don't like but the speed of the retrieve just isn't one of them.

Ezzy

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:04 pm

I was lambasted at a hunt test for my dog retrieving and sitting in front of me with the bird. It's just not done in the pointing dog world. Several people commented to me that judges didn't like dogs to "sit" while hunting. I can't say as I disagree with it or not - doesn't really matter to me much. But I do see that many, many, many pointing dog owners do not even teach "sit" since it can cause problems later on down the line. So a "finished" retrieve in the pointing dog world really just means - "to hand" for me. I can reach out and grab it, it's to hand. If the dog jumps up on your chest and hands the bird to you up there - that's to hand.

This is totally based on my perspective - and you won't find too many people more concerned about "ethical" and "appropriate" hunting and trialing/testing than I. I don't think it shows any disrespect to the birds or the sport for a dog to make a quick retrieve that is grabbed out of his mouth as he's running to find more birds.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:25 am

Rooster,

I see where you come from. The quick grab, and then stuff it in the vest fast as possible, while nearly
running off, sort of seems like, "so I shot another bird, it's nothing special, lets move on." This whole idea of it being
a timed competition probably does not soak into the people who know nothing of this type of contest.

The idea of tournament hunting is a very foreign concept to most people. When I have spoken about it to non-hunting
people they can not believe there is some sport where birds are shot for the sake of the contest. I don't tell them that
many times the birds are not even used, eaten, they are tossed in the garbage. I am sure that would put them over the top.

I am not saying we should do things to make sure we don't offend anyone out there. The very idea of hunting at all
will offend some people. I just want to try to see it somewhat from their point of view and see if there are ways
we could make ourselves look better. For example I never tell non-hunting people that many times pheasants have to
be dispatched after the dog makes the retrieve. I will tell them if they ask but I don't bring it up.

There are way more people who do not hunt in this country than those who do. Most folks don't have any point of reference
for this. My son is 31 and his generation is much more removed from all of this than mine. His wife does not want him to have a gun in the house "because they are dangerous." Her father is sort of weird about his own guns, and talks all macho
about hunting and shooting, but never takes a gun out of the gun cabinet. You know the type.

Anyway, I like the input from you guys.

Mike

codym · Post by **codym** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:32 am

MHWH wrote:ezzy,

I sort of agree. But when it is on TV and the guy quickly stretches out, grabs the bird out of the dogs mouth, and rushes off,
it shows no respect for the birds. We should show some respect, he killed something. And, if it were not for these amazing birds we would not have hunting to enjoy. It just doesn't look as good as it should or could.

I understand we can all train our dog to level we like. If we like it, no one else should care. But, anyone can see this show.
I don't train a finished retrieve to impress people. I like it. It looks good to me, and I think shows a respect for the game animals we all pursue.

It is all way more than killing birds to me. I think most everyone here would agree they don't pursue these birds just to kill
or to put meat on the table. This show sort of looks like that to me.

Mike

I think the lack of respect for the animal is a growing trend on most hunting shows. It's more about antler size or getting a kill on film than the appreciation for the animal or the total hunting experience. I can't bring myself to watch another white tailed deer die on film.JMO

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:33 am

The comment that pointers are not generally great retrievers is pure bunk......expose them and they will retrieve just about as well as any dog......

HB AA bred dog- think the Company breeds with retrieve in mind? Natural outta the box.

12 weeks

Old blood

Some need a little help with the delivery but not the retrieve itself....

Na no retrieve drive

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:24 pm

On the retrieving thing with pointers. I have never seen the relentless desire to find downed birds ina pointer
that I have seen come naturally for Labs. Some pointers are good retrievers, and some labs not so much. But
in general I think you see more of the never say quit retriever attitude with labs. The attitude that you can take
it to the bank when the dog finally comes back he/she will have the bird, is something I don't see in pointers
as much.

Mike

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:29 pm

birddog1968 wrote:The comment that pointers are not generally great retrievers is pure bunk......expose them and they will retrieve just about as well as any dog......

HB AA bred dog- think the Company breeds with retrieve in mind? Natural outta the box.

12 weeks

Old blood

Some need a little help with the delivery but not the retrieve itself....

Na no retrieve drive

Those are great pics. Thanks.

codym · Post by **codym** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:05 pm

Birddog those are sweet pics, do you force break your dogs yourself?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:16 pm

Yes I do, although a friend forced that liver female for me.....The white pup on top has yet to be forced.

ibbowhunting · Post by **ibbowhunting** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:16 pm

I have been lucky to help judge a local NBDC Event around 10 year ago an boy was that fun, back then the hunter had to leave one foot in place an could reach for a retrieve it is a time trial event, so speed in a retrieve is just as important as speed in finding birds its a game and to compete u must play the game or you would have just a great bird dog and not compete.

labrador retrievers vs any pointer on retrieves just a thought

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:10 pm

ibbowhunting wrote:
labrador retrievers vs any pointer on retrieves just a thought

200 yrd cold blinds?

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:30 pm

I think maybe they mean these are some of the best in that particular game.They are games and the way we train and set ourselves up to succeed are just a little different. I love this game but alot of others do not. Believe it or not alot of those dogs are completely different when just hunting. After awhile the good ones learn the game and know when it is game on. I sometimes refer to it as the drag racing of field trials. Are drag racers any less of a race car because they do not turn or is Nascar any less because they only turn left? My goal is to go to as many different venues as possible maybe not to compete but to learn and support their games as well. I don't support the games that allow running though. I have not seen it but have heard of a pheasant hunting game that allows it. UFTA and BDC have a rule against running.

codym · Post by **codym** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:20 am

smoothbean wrote:I think maybe they mean these are some of the best in that particular game.They are games and the way we train and set ourselves up to succeed are just a little different. I love this game but alot of others do not. Believe it or not alot of those dogs are completely different when just hunting. After awhile the good ones learn the game and know when it is game on. I sometimes refer to it as the drag racing of field trials. Are drag racers any less of a race car because they do not turn or is Nascar any less because they only turn left? My goal is to go to as many different venues as possible maybe not to compete but to learn and support their games as well. I don't support the games that allow running though. I have not seen it but have heard of a pheasant hunting game that allows it. UFTA and BDC have a rule against running.

As long as people do it in a safe responsible manner I don't see any problem with BDC. That being said I personally wouldn't run in it. I do think there is a big difference between shoot to retrieve and BDC, namely a much bigger emphasis on bird work, ground coverage, style, and obedience. Also from what I saw on TV aren't dogs in BDC allowed to wear e collars?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:36 am

Bdc allows collars but doesn't require a broke dog. NASTRA doesn't require a broke dog either though...

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:47 am

MHWH wrote:On the retrieving thing with pointers. I have never seen the relentless desire to find downed birds ina pointer
that I have seen come naturally for Labs. Some pointers are good retrievers, and some labs not so much. But
in general I think you see more of the never say quit retriever attitude with labs. The attitude that you can take
it to the bank when the dog finally comes back he/she will have the bird, is something I don't see in pointers
as much.

Mike

Hence one is called a "retriever" and the other is called a "bird dog" ...

codym · Post by **codym** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:49 am

ultracarry wrote:Bdc allows collars but doesn't require a broke dog. NASTRA doesn't require a broke dog either though...

Very true, but from what I have seen if your dog is not at least steady to the flush you won't score very well.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:14 am

I am relatively new here, so I am going to write here how a view things on the pointer
vs retriever thing. I don't want a big fight, I understand other points of view. I have owned pointers
and plan to again. I am sure this horse has been beat up a lot on this site.

If an upland dog finds birds, as both types do. I know it is different in how they go about it, but we
all know birds can be put in the bag with both pointers and flushers (Labs and others). If the dog is not
a tenacious retriever after the birds are downed he is only half a dog. I know this will cause people
to get upset. I don't say this to start things up. It is simply my opinion based on over 40 years of chasing
dogs around looking for birds, with many types of dogs, some mine, and those of others.

It is important to me to not lose birds that were hit. Not saying it is not with pointer guys. Just saying
from all I have seen when I get a pointing dog again it will likely be a GSP or something that has a strong
natural retrieving instinct.

By the way I believe a nice pointer or setter on point is one of the most beautiful sights one can find while
enjoying this sport of upland hunting. I just prefer a different sort of dog. To each his own.

Mike

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:52 am

For me the number one thing the pointing breed has to do is point. Now I shoot birds and will retrieve them myself sometimes while my dog watches... I'm not going out trying to kill a bunch of birds because brad27 showed me spots where we can put our dogs on wild birds. 1-2 maybe 3 a week would be max for me.

If I had a retriever I would expect it to retrieve birds all day, but that's not what I'm into. I would rather see my dog standing, take pictures, if the bird held maybe take a shot. It's about more than killing birds (imo).

BTW if I can't find it I may let her grab it for me.

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:04 pm

Like stated before BDC does allow ecolllars but UFTA does not allow them. As far as the retrieving goes I want my pointing dog to retrieve. It doesn't matter to me if my neighbor doesn't make his dogs retrieve. Maybe he plays a game that it isn't required. In the tournament hunting game if you want to be able to compete it is a must. You get points for a full retrieve and also for a partial. The hunter must get the retrieve from where he shot the bird. Think of it like basket ball, you can pivot on a foot but if you move that pivot foot it gets scored as a partial. You have to remember that this game is about time and it can some down to seconds. If you have a tied score with someone you want to have a faster time to beat them out. If I have a dog that comes to me circles around behind me stops and then I liesurely take the bird I am wasting valuable time.
When I started this game that is how my dog handled. Of course after learning the ropes I gave him a little slack on that so we could compete, but still when we were just out hunting he would do it the more liesurely way.When you see it on tv and how it is edited can make a big difference. Maybe the retrieve in question was one of those days that everyone has had(field trialing or just hunting),when the dog decides he has a better way of doing things.
Tournament hunting is a great way to get new people involved in the sport, which is possibly why it has taken of like it has. You don't have to be a professsional trainer and train x number of days a week. You can be just your average Joe with a nice dog, it doesn't even matter if, it's a pointer, setter, gsp, brittany or whatever kind of bird dog you like. Nobody's opinion which breed is superior matters so you take the politics out of the game. The judges are more like score keepers not someone out in the field to "judge" your dog. I am sure this isn't a game for everyone but that can be said for any game. The key is getting more people involved in birddogs to help grow the sport as a whole.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:15 pm

In answer the above post. A finished retrieve takes more time, yep. But if everyone had to do it
there is no problem. Why not have nice dog work rather than this rushed, grab and run stuff that
we see under the current rules?

Mike

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:17 pm

South dakota dnr figures hunters without retrievers loose 20% or more of their down birds.

Ralph Ford · Post by **Ralph Ford** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:42 pm

smoothbean wrote:. Are drag racers any less of a race car because they do not turn or is Nascar any less because they only turn left?

The answer to that is, YES. It gets proven quite a bit.

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:22 pm

Well, at least when you guys have your comments about the airing of last falls Worlds Finials for the BDC you can personally tell me all the things wrong with my dog.....
I think the Pointing Doubles Finials will be aired in two weeks. Just keep in mind when you make your flames towards me or my dog that you should takes a few things under consideration. First off I play the BDC game cause its about as close to a actual hunting experence as any venue Iv been able to find. Another big reason is that all my dogs in my string have either came from the local pound or a animial rescue or from someone that has "washed" out or maybe just didnt fit there program, in BDC none of the dogs have to have a set of papers that are a mile long, even tho most of them do. So if any of you can find a venue that you can run any mutt you want, in either pointing or flushing divisions, attend a tourment just about any week of the year you want, and make over 20 grand a year let me know....

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:49 pm

MHWH wrote:I am relatively new here, so I am going to write here how a view things on the pointer
vs retriever thing. I don't want a big fight, I understand other points of view. I have owned pointers
and plan to again. I am sure this horse has been beat up a lot on this site.

If the dog is not a tenacious retriever after the birds are downed he is only half a dog. I know this will cause people
to get upset. I don't say this to start things up.

Mike

Mike

Any breed of dog can be trained to retrieve, in fact many animals can be trained to retrieve. What's the big deal? I think you just like to knock pointing breeds.

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:09 pm

MWHW I guess that is why there are so many field trial venues. That way some one like youself can go play a different game that others don't want to play. I try not to keep asking why. If we kept changing it the way different people want it would end up being an entirely different game. The UFTA is controlled by the members every few years members can turn in changes to the rules that they would like to see then the members vote on all those proposed rule changes. Like I said this type of trial isn't for everyone but it must not be too bad by the growth that we have had.
You should come to a trial and see one in person. Where are you located I would gladly help you find one to go observe and introduce you to some great folks. Heck go give it a shot. I am not saying it is perfect because like all games sometimes people get their feelings hurt but it really is fun. Seriously send me your information so I can get you to one of our trials. We are going to a big UFTA trial this coming weekend in Marshall, Illinos.
I am sure you would be surprised by the breeding of some of thes dogs. We guys that like the big horseback lines to, NSTRA lines, I have seen guys competing with NAVDHA dogs. Then of course there are the ones that have their own lines. I think we have alittle of everything but like all games there are some special ones that really have the smarts to play the game.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:24 pm

MHWH wrote:I am relatively new here, so I am going to write here how a view things on the pointer
vs retriever thing. I don't want a big fight, I understand other points of view. I have owned pointers
and plan to again. I am sure this horse has been beat up a lot on this site.

If an upland dog finds birds, as both types do. I know it is different in how they go about it, but we
all know birds can be put in the bag with both pointers and flushers (Labs and others). If the dog is not
a tenacious retriever after the birds are downed he is only half a dog. I know this will cause people
to get upset. I don't say this to start things up. It is simply my opinion based on over 40 years of chasing
dogs around looking for birds, with many types of dogs, some mine, and those of others.

It is important to me to not lose birds that were hit. Not saying it is not with pointer guys. Just saying
from all I have seen when I get a pointing dog again it will likely be a GSP or something that has a strong
natural retrieving instinct.

By the way I believe a nice pointer or setter on point is one of the most beautiful sights one can find while
enjoying this sport of upland hunting. I just prefer a different sort of dog. To each his own.

Mike

When you hunt country that is HUGE and expansive chasing chukar "FINDING" the bird is 95 percent of the equation. The retrieve is very minimal.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Boomer wrote:Well, at least when you guys have your comments about the airing of last falls Worlds Finials for the BDC you can personally tell me all the things wrong with my dog.....
I think the Pointing Doubles Finials will be aired in two weeks. Just keep in mind when you make your flames towards me or my dog that you should takes a few things under consideration. First off I play the BDC game cause its about as close to a actual hunting experence as any venue Iv been able to find. Another big reason is that all my dogs in my string have either came from the local pound or a animial rescue or from someone that has "washed" out or maybe just didnt fit there program, in BDC none of the dogs have to have a set of papers that are a mile long, even tho most of them do. So if any of you can find a venue that you can run any mutt you want, in either pointing or flushing divisions, attend a tourment just about any week of the year you want, and make over 20 grand a year let me know....

I dont think ANY of the venues come close to mimicking actual hunting. Pen raised released birds in small fields being timed does not come close to real hunting. Real hunting is the only thing that comes close to real hunting. Games are just something to play with till hunting season rolls around!

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:38 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I dont think ANY of the venues come close to mimicking actual hunting. Pen raised released birds in small fields being timed does not come close to real hunting. Real hunting is the only thing that comes close to real hunting. Games are just something to play with till hunting season rolls around!

I've tried NSTRA style trials, BDC style tournament hunts (with my lab), walking field trials with planted birds and cover dog trials on wild birds and the closest to the style of hunting I do is cover dog trials. It still isn't hunting as you are on a course (path through the woods), but you are going after the same birds you would when hunting and in the same area where a person would hunt for those birds.

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:53 pm

I do not like to bash pointers. In fact I wrote that I have had, and will have again a pointing dog.
As to Pointers, not them either. I love pointers, they are the supreme athletes of the gun dog world
and I respect that.

I would like to attend a UFTA event. The one in Marshall Illinois won't work out, but I will get to one.

Mike

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:57 pm

Oh, and any dog can be taught to point also. I had a mini Dashund that I taught to point.
It was cute, but it was nothing like a really nice pointer.

Mike

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:23 pm

MHWH wrote:Oh, and any dog can be taught to point also. I had a mini Dashund that I taught to point.
It was cute, but it was nothing like a really nice pointer.

Mike

Point and find birds, I dont understand why you are even trying to compare a retriever to an upland dog.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:49 pm

MHWH wrote:OK, I don't want to start any problems just looking for answers from those with much more experience than me.

I have been watching the Nat. Bird Dog challenge (Championship) on TV recently. I hear them say these are the best dogs
in the country, or similar things on nearly every show. Yet, they allow pretty sloppy retrieves. All they need to do is get within one step of the handler, he then stretches out, grabs the bird from the dogs mouth, and off they go as quickly as possible.

I guess it sort of hit me when I was doing some retrieving drills with my Lab yesterday. I was running the baseball diamond set up, and directing the dog to one dummy, then the other. A young couple with kids saw this as they walked their greyhounds. They commented about how impressive it was to see how well trained my dog was. At that point he broke off a retrieve and ran over to greet their dogs. Yeah, he sort off lost a loft position there:).

Anyway, he comes to me with dummies, passes by on my right, turns around and comes up from behind and sits at my left hand, and waits for me to take the dummy, as he does with birds in the field also.

So. I know it is a timed event. But why allow such poor retrieves? People who know nothing about this will see this, hear their comments, and think these are really great dogs. (They may very well be wonderful, but this type of retrieve does not show it. )

Grabbing the bird and running off just does not reflect well on our sport of upland hunting. I just think this organization should look at this, and see that they could change the rules, and it would give non-hunters a better idea of what we actually do when out hunting.

Oh, I am assuming the NSTRA venue is similar. I believe that it was a NSTRA event that I observed one of the times I went to this type of event.

I would like to have a better opinion of this, but I don't. Help me understand, or at least get more details.

Thanks,

Mike

I just read this question again... I have some questions for you.

#1 what calibre dog do you produce in the pointer/versatile breeds?

#2 what venue do you test/compete in. If you only test how do you measure if your dog is better than others?

#3 how many of these dogs have you trained?

#4 you taught the weiner dog to point but did you teach him to retrieve, because afterall this is about retrieving for you.

#5 why do you care so much about pointing dog trials when you are working a lab?

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:20 pm

Keep in mind boys that not only is the dog judged in BDC but also your shooting is taking into account. Thats what I ment by this venue being more close to real hunting then a few other trails out ther. If you dont shoot well the best dog in the country wont win, its more of a team event, you and your dog.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:32 pm

MHWH wrote:OK, I don't want to start any problems just looking for answers from those with much more experience than me.

I have been watching the Nat. Bird Dog challenge (Championship) on TV recently. I hear them say these are the best dogs
in the country, or similar things on nearly every show. Yet, they allow pretty sloppy retrieves. All they need to do is get within one step of the handler, he then stretches out, grabs the bird from the dogs mouth, and off they go as quickly as possible.

I guess it sort of hit me when I was doing some retrieving drills with my Lab yesterday. I was running the baseball diamond set up, and directing the dog to one dummy, then the other. A young couple with kids saw this as they walked their greyhounds. They commented about how impressive it was to see how well trained my dog was. At that point he broke off a retrieve and ran over to greet their dogs. Yeah, he sort off lost a loft position there:).

Anyway, he comes to me with dummies, passes by on my right, turns around and comes up from behind and sits at my left hand, and waits for me to take the dummy, as he does with birds in the field also.
Retrieving isn't the only thing that is sloppy in this type of event and I don't think it can be compared to NSTRA at all. However, I see nothing wrong with an organization making whatever rules they want for their particular venue. Train the dog for what you want/like and for the venue you want to participate in and let others do the same. Different people and different venues expect different things from their dogs. Nothing wrong with that. No dog can be the best in every venue so when dogs are said to be the best, they must mean the best in their particular venue. JMO.

Charlie

So. I know it is a timed event. But why allow such poor retrieves? People who know nothing about this will see this, hear their comments, and think these are really great dogs. (They may very well be wonderful, but this type of retrieve does not show it. )

Grabbing the bird and running off just does not reflect well on our sport of upland hunting. I just think this organization should look at this, and see that they could change the rules, and it would give non-hunters a better idea of what we actually do when out hunting.

Oh, I am assuming the NSTRA venue is similar. I believe that it was a NSTRA event that I observed one of the times I went to this type of event.

I would like to have a better opinion of this, but I don't. Help me understand, or at least get more details.

Thanks,

Mike

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:39 pm

For some reason, my post above is highlighted with the quote, making it confusing to distinguish my post from the origanal quote.

Sorry,
Charlie

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:10 pm

IMHO, if you wild bird hunt, your dog should be a good retriever. Isn't that what the dog is for? Reducing the bird to possession. A well-trained dog is the best conservation tool there is. Now me, I count a bird shot (crippled or dead) in my bag - whether or not it is retrieved/found. Others don't follow that logic. Me, it's about the spirit of the rule - and just because I didn't (or dog didn't) find the bird, the bird isn't any less dead.

I would say that the 20% more loss rate for hunters without a dog is very low. From what I've personally witnessed, I would guess a much higher percentage of "hit" birds that aren't worked with a dog are lost. Doing work with the Steel Shot training folks, I volunteered with dogs for a couple of days to do retrieves. This was either after 1) the hunters said they hadn't crippled a bird (and they really had) or 2) they searched for a bird they knew had been killed or crippled and couldn't find it. I don't have the numbers in my head, but I'm thinking they lost better than 40% of the birds that were crippled or dead - and my dog found every one of them after the "hunters" had thoroughly searched the area. This was a really interesting program that really showed the value of the dog as a conservation tool.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:22 pm

Agreed that a dog is the best conservation tool but a dog doesn't have to retrieve to be a conservation tool, all he has to do is hunt and find dead/crippled birds. Just to be clear, I am only talking about recovering shot birds, I pesonally want my dogs retrieving to hand.

Charlie

MHWH · Post by **MHWH** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:48 am

Elkhunter,

Why do I compare a retriever to an "upland dog?" I don't know for sure but I am guessing you
are referring to pointing breeds here. In Iowa, Minn., SD, and ND I would venture to say that
Labs out number any other breed used to chase wild roosters. I believe that warrants them being
"upland dogs."

This whole thread is sort of turning into things I did not want or propose. I like pointers, setters, and
other pointing breeds. I have said so, and said I will have a pointing dog in the future once again. No
problem. I am not breed blind. What I was having some difficulty with was what I saw on TV during BDC
shows. The retrieve being acceptable when the dog gets within one big step of the handler, he stretches out,
grabs the bird from the dogs mouth, and quickly takes off. Now I understand these are the rules, and other venues
expect more in the retrieve, and other areas also. It just bothers me that non-hunting types can see this and
I don't think this leaves the best impression of our sport. Most upland guys I know are really into the dog work
as much or more than the taking of game. Watching a good dog cover ground, search out objectives, out smart
a wily rooster is something to behold. They are mostly law abiding, meaning they stay within the limits, don't
shoot birds on the ground, etc. I don't think what I see on BDC shows fall in line with this type of hunting we all
enjoy so much. Just mu opinion, not for everyone I guess.

Mike

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:58 am

"It just bothers me that non-hunting types can see this and I don't think this leaves the best impression of our sport."

Who cares? The non-hunting hippies and wussies are too appalled at killing birds to care about a finished retrieve or a take one step retrieve. When people who actually hunt come and hunt with a good dog they'll be that much more impressed with a solid finished retrieve. Most dog work on TV sucks anyway. Creeping, pointers flushing, and other types of BS is always on hunting dog TV shows for whatever reason. I think they should make a TV show at one of these horseback field trials, I'd watch that and people could see the high standards some of these dogs are trained to. The market for this is too small to make money on it though. The people on this site are a very small percentage of hunters, much less the general TV watching public.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:10 am

Or before you film a show make sure the dogs are trained to a higher standard... At least steady until the shot. Nothing makes me throw up more in my mouth than a creeping dog on TV shows. The breaking at the flush... Then looking at the title of the show it says "broke dogs". ::puke::

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:14 am

MHWH wrote:Elkhunter,

Why do I compare a retriever to an "upland dog?" I don't know for sure but I am guessing you
are referring to pointing breeds here. In Iowa, Minn., SD, and ND I would venture to say that
Labs out number any other breed used to chase wild roosters. I believe that warrants them being
"upland dogs."

Who says I chase pheasants? Most people would agree that flushing dogs are more effective for pheasants. I can count on one hand how many days I have hunted roosters in the last 10 years. I hunt chukars/huns in wide open areas, so the most important aspect of my hunting is finding the bird, sometimes we dont even find birds! So the retrieve is of very little importance to me. I have a good little GSP that retrieves great so all birds are found. But if she dropped it 2 feet from me I could care less.

Mike I can use the same argument that around here in UT for chasing chukars that the significantly large portion of bird dogs are pointers, and the labs make up a very small minority. People always seem to think that their way of hunting is the only way it can be done. What works for you does not work for me, and vice versa.