NSTRA dog

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Ruffshooter
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue May 01, 2012 12:05 pm

Scott: You must have tried planting birds by taking a route down wind from the break away, out of site taking a long route around then mixing it up on the way back. I know it does not take much scent for them to follow, and the 4 wheelers are loaded with bird scent. But, I have even walked out with no birds bird bag or even touching a bird and had Mercy track me to my the end. I know some of the dogs are tracking the 4 wheeler loaded with scent but some do in such a manner that they seem to follow the actual tracks. Some play the games so much that they begin to understand, I think anyways. Maybe I give them to much credit.
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by scott townsend » Tue May 01, 2012 1:10 pm

I didn't say they could not track a human. Im just telling you like it is. They track the birds not the bikes or the horses or anything else. It is the birds. I have wacthed them do it for years. It isn't even something you have to worry about teaching. It is learned by simple association, like many other things they learn. The day a dog can run out across a field and tell the differance from one ATV versus the other by the exhaust or track we need to start sending them to school. :D

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Grousewing
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by Grousewing » Tue May 01, 2012 2:11 pm

scott townsend wrote:
codym wrote:
Grousewing wrote:IMO it takes a big running, great nose and fairly well broke dog to be competitive in NSTRA. I have had setters, pointers and gsp and all 3 of these breeds with certain dogs were very competitive. It takes a very smart, bike tracking, one in a thousand dog to be a top player in NSTRA.


I've only run nstra trials in AZ and they plant off horseback which I really like. Do alot of dogs track the atv when birds are planted off it? I've heard that they do but like I said I've never seen it.
Being able to track the ATV or the horse actually has nothing to do with either the ATV or the horse. What is the one common denominator that both methods of planting share??????? Birds. Its the dander that comes of the birds while tranporting. That is what the dogs can follow. That is why they can follow a horse or an ATV.

As far as being competive in NSTRA it takes many different talents on both the owner/handler and the dog. The dog needs allot of nose, perferably allot speed, biddability is a huge help, as well a style, stamina and brains.
As for the handler, common sense, the ability to control your dog, and the ability to manuver around the field to play the chess match part of the game. Some stamina on the handlers end helps also. :D
Shows what I know......... Makes perfect sense now I just need to start dragging a bird bag around when planting birds out back. I always thought mine was tracking all the white smoke coming out the tail pipe......... :lol:
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sdoliver
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by sdoliver » Tue May 01, 2012 4:19 pm

First off. I have never ran a dog in a NSTRA trial but it doesn't make sense to me that the dogs learn to track the 4wheeler or horses. Maybe so in the first few braces but when you get to brace 12 or 13 that means the planter (whether on horse back or ATV) and the judges have made at least 36 trips across the field (12 for the planter and 24 for the two judges).It seems to me that the dogs would be following many more unproductive tracks than if it just went out and hunted. Even if the dog was following the planters and you draw brace 16 that means the dog has 16 different tracks to try and follow. If the bird planter is zig-zagging across the field I just don't see how a dog can keep that straight. Seems to me it would just be better to have a dog hunt birds.

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Redfishkilla
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by Redfishkilla » Tue May 01, 2012 4:22 pm

@sdoliver....Scott's probably right that they track the birds....but I think they learn thirty minute old bird scent verses, two minute old bird scent....they do track....something.....

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by romeo212000 » Tue May 01, 2012 4:44 pm

sdoliver wrote:First off. I have never ran a dog in a NSTRA trial but it doesn't make sense to me that the dogs learn to track the 4wheeler or horses. Maybe so in the first few braces but when you get to brace 12 or 13 that means the planter (whether on horse back or ATV) and the judges have made at least 36 trips across the field (12 for the planter and 24 for the two judges).It seems to me that the dogs would be following many more unproductive tracks than if it just went out and hunted. Even if the dog was following the planters and you draw brace 16 that means the dog has 16 different tracks to try and follow. If the bird planter is zig-zagging across the field I just don't see how a dog can keep that straight. Seems to me it would just be better to have a dog hunt birds.
True. Unfortunately, not all bird planters take that into consideration and make an attempt to level the playing field. I have noticed a bird planter taking the same route every time and turned a dog that could track loose right on his track in what probably appeared to be an odd looking direction. However, I've also seen a good planter cause a dog that relies on tracking to become completely lost in the field. The best asset to an Nstra trial is a good bird planter. Unfortunately that's the participant most trial chairmen choose just about anybody for.

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by scott townsend » Wed May 02, 2012 7:04 am

Remeo, there times that I have seen terrible bird planters but that is few and far between.
Also I am not advocating that this tracking stuff is the end all to be able to compete in the game. It is NOT. There are other methods that work as well or better on given days. I guess ideally one would want a dog that can do it either way. Plus listen and respond to its handler to help put them in the right areas. At least that is what I am told anyway. :D

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by romeo212000 » Wed May 02, 2012 4:45 pm

scott townsend wrote:Remeo, there times that I have seen terrible bird planters but that is few and far between.
Also I am not advocating that this tracking stuff is the end all to be able to compete in the game. It is NOT. There are other methods that work as well or better on given days. I guess ideally one would want a dog that can do it either way. Plus listen and respond to its handler to help put them in the right areas. At least that is what I am told anyway. :D
I'm just guessing what you've been "told" is right Scott. :)

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by JoshHaker » Wed May 02, 2012 9:08 pm

So I ran my shorthair in his first (and mine) NSTRA puppy trial. I really enjoyed it. He pointed two birds and busted one that was running. I am looking forward to the real season. He isn't retrieving all that well so I guess I am going to force fetch him. So I guess what I am realizing is that most of the breeds are pretty equal. I have only watched two real NSTRA trials and one puppy trial. What a great group of people! The reason for my question at the beginnign of this post was to try figure out what kind of dog to get next? I absolutely love my gsp but I wish I would have sent him to a trainer earlier (he is now 3). Looking at the other breeds makes me want to own one of each.

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brad27
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by brad27 » Wed May 02, 2012 9:31 pm

3 years old is not too old for training.........

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by snips » Wed May 02, 2012 9:50 pm

I have been told the dogs track the scent of fresh broken grass,Chlorophyl. Makes as good a sense as anything else I guess. I know when training tracking, dogs can decipher the time of the track, hence recent birdplanting. My dogs were never aided in tracking training, they just did it. I remember running in Az once and someone told me my dog would not track the birdplanter there (horseback)..It took him 2 braces to figure it out. I feel this is nothing more than intelligence matched with a very good nose. As for training a dog to slow down when conditions get tough, I do not think u should mess with the way a dog finds birds, leave it to them and they either pick up on it or they don't,,The exceptional dogs adjust...There was a great (IMO) pointer I used to watch run, if he did not find a bird in the first 5 minutes u could see him drop his head and slow down and hit a steady hunting pace, and come out with 4 birds everytime.
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by Ron R » Thu May 03, 2012 6:36 am

snips wrote:There was a great (IMO) pointer I used to watch run, if he did not find a bird in the first 5 minutes u could see him drop his head and slow down and hit a steady hunting pace, and come out with 4 birds everytime.
What was his name?
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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by snips » Thu May 03, 2012 6:43 pm

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by slistoe » Thu May 03, 2012 8:51 pm

scott townsend wrote:Remeo, there times that I have seen terrible bird planters but that is few and far between.
Also I am not advocating that this tracking stuff is the end all to be able to compete in the game. It is NOT. There are other methods that work as well or better on given days. I guess ideally one would want a dog that can do it either way. Plus listen and respond to its handler to help put them in the right areas. At least that is what I am told anyway. :D
You can take a poor dog and teach it to track an ATV full of birds and it will be a poor dog. The good dogs will track the birds wherever they are and despite whatever pains anyone will take to prevent them learning it - they simply want to find birds and have the tools to do so. Absolutely they track the scent fallout from the birds (not sure if it is dander or not) and absolutely they can tell the difference between 1/2 hour old scent and 2 minute old scent if they are the kind of dogs we want to be having in the field.

Scott have you even seen dogs track flown birds following the falling scent in the air? I have owned two dogs that would do it.

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by romeo212000 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:22 am

slistoe wrote:
scott townsend wrote:Remeo, there times that I have seen terrible bird planters but that is few and far between.
Also I am not advocating that this tracking stuff is the end all to be able to compete in the game. It is NOT. There are other methods that work as well or better on given days. I guess ideally one would want a dog that can do it either way. Plus listen and respond to its handler to help put them in the right areas. At least that is what I am told anyway. :D
You can take a poor dog and teach it to track an ATV full of birds and it will be a poor dog. The good dogs will track the birds wherever they are and despite whatever pains anyone will take to prevent them learning it - they simply want to find birds and have the tools to do so. Absolutely they track the scent fallout from the birds (not sure if it is dander or not) and absolutely they can tell the difference between 1/2 hour old scent and 2 minute old scent if they are the kind of dogs we want to be having in the field.

Scott have you even seen dogs track flown birds following the falling scent in the air? I have owned two dogs that would do it.
Yeah. Im pretty sure Scott's seen that sort of thing lol.

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by scott townsend » Fri May 04, 2012 8:37 am

slistoe wrote:
scott townsend wrote:Remeo, there times that I have seen terrible bird planters but that is few and far between.
Also I am not advocating that this tracking stuff is the end all to be able to compete in the game. It is NOT. There are other methods that work as well or better on given days. I guess ideally one would want a dog that can do it either way. Plus listen and respond to its handler to help put them in the right areas. At least that is what I am told anyway. :D
You can take a poor dog and teach it to track an ATV full of birds and it will be a poor dog. The good dogs will track the birds wherever they are and despite whatever pains anyone will take to prevent them learning it - they simply want to find birds and have the tools to do so. Absolutely they track the scent fallout from the birds (not sure if it is dander or not) and absolutely they can tell the difference between 1/2 hour old scent and 2 minute old scent if they are the kind of dogs we want to be having in the field.

Scott have you even seen dogs track flown birds following the falling scent in the air? I have owned two dogs that would do it.

Yes I have seen dogs do that. I had one that would actually stand on his hind legs to get his nose in the air to get the scent. Sounds like a bunch of BS, but I watched him do it many times on flown birds.

I think in general this whole issue of tracking, folks try to make it into some mysterious event. I have never tried to teach a dog it. They should learn it on their own if they are halfway intelligent. It is simple repetition and association. The more complicated part is where the handler needs to recognize, the signs the dog will show that it is running that track, so that you can then either shut your mouth and let him go or make the decision that he needs handled out of the situation and off the track. That track can often times hurt you just as much as it can help you. Some handlers don't learn so well from repetition and association :D FWI ,My two cents worth on the subject.

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Re: NSTRA dog

Post by slistoe » Fri May 04, 2012 9:06 pm

scott townsend wrote: Yes I have seen dogs do that. I had one that would actually stand on his hind legs to get his nose in the air to get the scent. Sounds like a bunch of BS, but I watched him do it many times on flown birds.
Yep, that is what I was referring too. Pretty cool to see and even cooler to gain more understanding of the remarkable ability of some dogs. Had one dog track a wounded bird for 200+ yards that way to where it had landed.
scott townsend wrote:I think in general this whole issue of tracking, folks try to make it into some mysterious event. I have never tried to teach a dog it. They should learn it on their own if they are halfway intelligent.
Agreed completely.

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