How much does the handler do to have a good dog ?

[Francois P vd Walt]

When I get a new pup from great blood lines, does this mean it will be a good dog ?
or
Will I have to take it to a pro to make it a good dog ?

[ultracarry]

You need to do a whole lot more than send it off and expect it to be a good dog. Depends on what your looking for and definition of a "good dog". I think it takes a lot of work on both ends.

Buying a dog out of good lines helps and its money well spent and sometimes you can pick a good one up at the pet store. Depends on your luck that day.

[gotpointers]

Pick the breed of dog that is going to handle your situation. Do you need a dog that hunts slow in heavy cover? Or is it wide open where you live? Do you need a dog that's going to run big for 3 hours? Do you hunt off foot, horseback, vehicle. Match the dog breed for your hunting style and terrain. No need for a big running pointer for a slow moving foot hunter, And vice versa. Planted birds or wild birds? Right tool for the job makes a big differnce in whats going to be a "good dog" for you.
A good pro can get a no name pup out of the paper and make more out of it than a person with the best bred dog who doesent know how to handle or train properly.

[cjhills]

I have seen no name handlers buy a no name pup and because of the connection and time spent together, in the field where there are alot of birds, have a better dog then alot of the protrainers I know ever get. As a matter of fact I am a noname handler with noname dogs.
Repoire goes a long ways as does letting the dog do his thing on his schedule.
Cj

[Brittguy]

When I get a new pup from great blood lines, does this mean it will be a good dog ?
or
Will I have to take it to a pro to make it a good dog ?

getting a pup from great blood lines , put the odds in your favor that you will have a good dog. The need to send him to a pro depends on your time commitment and training skills. People have different expectations. What one person thinks is a very good dog may not impress someone else.

[Chukar12]

I agree with Brittguy, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Genetics pays a critical factor in the performance of a dog, and to a greater extent the more specialized your expectations are. Hunting and competition both can go from pretty casual and loose to very structured and intense. What hunter/handler A views as part of the game, may cause hunter/handler B to have an infarction and spend hours back at the drawing board. I believe that if a person gives it enough forethought to know they want a "good" hunting or competition dog, their first step is to define what that is.

In competition, I find that the upper eschelon pro handlers have an advantage. Not all who call themselves pros are a constant threat, I know many who just enjoy the rather vagabond lifestyle and don't apply a whole lot more effort to their craft than they would if they were working at the post office, Starbucks or Rudy's Massage Parlour and Adult Bookstore. However, the real pros use their time and experience wisely and know when to handle and more importantly when to not handle. They are hard to beat. Our edge if you will as amateurs, is time and connection with a fewer number of dogs. I do believe its true that many pros curse under their breath when they see certain amateurs on the brace sheet, because they know they will keep a dog in contention and they are going to have to beat them, not just win by having more dogs in the running.

Having a good dog is genetics, health (nutrition), training, experience (handler and dog) and then the application of said training in the field. The end is where the disconnect can come in. I have helped a number of people break or correct problems in young dogs, but then watch or hear they lose the gains back in the field. It is even more clear watching a pro win with a given dog and have it come un broke the next day in an amateur stake. A handler has a lot to do with it, depending on how specific "it" is.

[JKP]

The best dog you will ever own is one you train yourself. Working with a dog is teamwork...knowing your dog, reading your dog, and being able to reinforce the training from time to time, especially with young dogs. There are many excellent/honorable trainers...and in private over a beer they will tell you the same.

[BigShooter]

One of points alluded to above is the experience of the trainer/handler. Few amateurs are as good as the good pros. Virtually all trainers, pro & amatuer alike have to obtain a certain level of education & experience before they are "good". However, it's a lot tougher for an amateur to get the same on-the-job training & experience as a pro. An amateur may do well with one or a couple of dogs but a pro has to learn to read many (100s of) dogs & learn what techniques work with each individual dog.

However, training and experience being nearly equal a trainer/handler bonding with and concentrating on one or a couple of dogs will likely have an advantage over a guy/gal splitting his/her time between 20-35 dogs.

[bb560m]

The best dog you will ever own is one you train yourself. Working with a dog is teamwork...knowing your dog, reading your dog, and being able to reinforce the training from time to time, especially with young dogs. There are many excellent/honorable trainers...and in private over a beer they will tell you the same.

Had to send my guy off because I live in a city and it's impossible to give him the exposure he needs at his early age. I think it's going to work out well.

[birddogger]

Assuming the dog has good genetics and instincts, I think the most important thing for the handler is to not screw him up.

Charlie

[jcbuttry8]

I think you will find that most trainers really need to spend more time training the owners than the dog. I like the approach I am using. I see my trainer once to twice a week and then I do the majority of the work with his guidance. I have learned a ton. I think Kona sometimes looks at me like did you get it yet. Dogs have the instincts for most of this. We are the ones that have to be trained.

Joe

[Francois P vd Walt]

So I then can safely say if any handler/trainer gets enough time out with dogs he/she will be good


And

If any well bred gundog gets enough time in the hunting conditions he will hunt well !

The rules and the way the dogs must hunt will be human enforced and not have anything to do with the natural hunting ability of the dog. So I can aslo say most handlers over handle their dogs !

[Gertie]

This is my first adventure in training a dog so I don't know squat about squat and rely on a lot of book reading, dvd watching, educated opinions and intuition. In short, I'm no expert. But, in my humble observation, the things that really click and stick with my dog are the ones that after repetition after repetition are executed with a happy tail and a high head. I'm sure there's a lot of pros out there that could get the job done quicker and I admire their skill and their trade but I wouldn't get the big grin that I get when the dots finally connect in a task that I have taught myself. I started with a dog that probably knew more about how to handle birds from birth than I'll ever know but I'd like to think I'm helping to 'carve the sculpture from the stone'. I guess my point is that as a trainer and/or handler you are in charge of helping the dog reach its potential, whatever that potential might be.

[bhulisa]

Assuming the dog has good genetics and instincts, I think the most important thing for the handler is to not screw him up.
Charlie

+1

[adogslife]

Can the OP explain what he thinks a "good dog" is?

From the responses it appears that all anyone needs is a dog and a willing owner.

[cjhills]

Most of my dogs have very good pedigrees but got with the wrong trainers, both pro and amatuer. I think that dogs are very forgiving and it is hard to screw one up so it can't be fixed. It is hard to take out what hundreds of generations of breeding has put in.
We all buy equipment we don't need and probably the biggest mistake we make at the start is over handling and over training. We probably have different ideas of what a good dog is and our ideas probably change as we evolve. But, basically I think we all want the same thing. As it gets more difficult to find training grounds and wild birds we have to resort to artificial means of training. Dogs see through this very quickly. The posts on bike tracking are good example of this.
I do think most amatuers over handle their dogs and it may be the hardest thing to unlearn. Remember the 6 inch piece of duct tape rule. CJ

[jcbuttry8]

So I then can safely say if any handler/trainer gets enough time out with dogs he/she will be good


And

If any well bred gundog gets enough time in the hunting conditions he will hunt well !

The rules and the way the dogs must hunt will be human enforced and not have anything to do with the natural hunting ability of the dog. So I can aslo say most handlers over handle their dogs !

I think yes and no. The overall advice given on here to new comers is you must have birds, birds, birds. If it was all human enforced you could train a good bird dog without them. The more exposure to birds the more your dog will know how to handle the birds. I don't believe that is taught. You can't teach a nose. They either have it or they don't. We have pushed Kona to run treelines. She does it very well. When running a tree line she will veer off to hit a patch of shrubs off the tree line. We didn't teach that, that is instinct to check cover. She will do it no matter where she runs. She checks. That was not enforced that is how she handles cover off a treeline. They learn over time what holds birds and what doesn't. It is more exposure. I don't think it is human enforced. Now holding to the shot, force fetching, healing, proper manners in the house, those are all human enforced.

I think there are some differences between hunting and trialing. In most cases during trials you are under a time constraint and specific expectations that must happen during that time. You have 30 or more depending on the game to show case the dog with a brace mate involved. Myself, when hunting, I tend to let the dog's nose lead me and I never have a time constraint. If we can play for several hours that is what we do.

I have been to trials and have heard judges make the comment that a specific dog should have won but the handler called them off or redirected and messed up the run. So, yes, a dog can be over handled.

JM2C,
Joe

[Francois P vd Walt]

I have been to trials and have heard judges make the comment that a specific dog should have won but the handler called them off or redirected and messed up the run. So, yes, a dog can be over handled.

JM2C,
Joe[/quote]

I would like to ad to that trialing over a period of time the better dogs do come through. Doing a trial once a year is a hit and miss, also over time the friendships in trialing infleunce results. IMO

[BrassVols]

Simple answer:
Purchase young pup with proven blood lines of your liking.
Purchase Carhart overalls.
Hunt said pup repeatedly in areas with opportunity of exposure, wild or planted.
Never shoot a bird that pup has not pointed and held for you to flush.
When Carhart coveralls become frayed and shredded you will have yourself a good dog.
If by chance you had the wherewithall to purchase a English Pointer pup you will have yourself a great dog.

[stlgsp]

Get a dog from good lines, give him a good start, send him to a good trainer, decide to try trialing and handling yourself, make every error you can think of, the dog learns to stand through your crazy mistakes, the judge say's “wow, that’s a nice dog to hold through all of that” and you get a ribbon

I started last spring in our first gundog stake for me and the dog. Got picked up when the dog broke because of my handling errors. Asked a lot of questions, got a lot of handling advice and spent the summer learning and working with him before trying again in the fall. Sometimes I think he holds just to see what kind of stupid thing I’m going to do next.

[gotpointers]

Simple answer:
Purchase young pup with proven blood lines of your liking.
Purchase Carhart overalls.
Hunt said pup repeatedly in areas with opportunity of exposure, wild or planted.
Never shoot a bird that pup has not pointed and held for you to flush.
When Carhart coveralls become frayed and shredded you will have yourself a good dog.
If by chance you had the wherewithall to purchase a English Pointer pup you will have yourself a great dog.

I agree wholeheartedly with emphasis on the last sentence

[Kmack]

There are two things which I think the pros add as part of their training that most casual hunters/trainers would never even notice. But to me they are the difference between a great/good dog and a dog which merely finds birds for its' owner.

Number 1. Train the dog to take the required cues from the handler so that he can get the dog to be wherever he wants it at a given time without screaming, hollering, or getting red-faced from tooting a whistle.

Number 2. Train the dog to take cues from birds and other dogs so that the dog responds appropriately for the situation, whether it be bird on ground, bird in the air, or other dog on point.

Aside from those two, most owners can fumble their way through the basics of heel, here, kennel etc. and the dogs natural abilities will provide adequate bird-finding for most hunters to be satisfied with their results.

Once they recognize the differences and decide they want a dog trained to the highest level, they will either need to become much better trainers themselves or seek the services of a pro.

My $.02.

[Trekmoor]

I believe in, "Breed for the best - train for the rest." If you want a good dog, go to a good breeder and he/she will have done a large part of the "work" for you. After that it depends on how good the trainer is and on how much work experience the dog can be given if it is ever to reach it's full potential.

Bill T.

[fuzznut]

The dogs who go on to greatness almost always have great dogs in their past- but they can only live up to their full potential if they have a great owner!

Question is... what makes a great owner?
To me, it's the person who allows the dog to use the talents it has. It's the person who listens to others with more experience. It's the person who keeps an open mind when training. It's the person who treats the dog well, fairly and doesn't ask more of it then it's been trained to do.

Fuzz

[Francois P vd Walt]

Looking at all the comments .....

So glad we all have our own opinions, otherwise we would all have the same dogs. HA !

If you spend the time to know your dog and you are the pack leader(Ceaser's way) get it out enough have basic discipline you will have a good hunting buddy. Remember dogs adapt to you, they will only do what you allow them to do.