springer rage

[phoneman45]

several years ago I trained a Brittany for a man and I made a casual statement about being interested in buying a springer sometime in the future. he asked me why I would ever consider a springer as a bird dog because Gun Dog magazine had written a story called springer rage. It basically (according to him) stated that springer spaniels were unpredictable and were prone to fits of violent aggression and therefore a hunter would do well to stay away from them. Now I dont believe this for a minute. This man's character defintely had some flaws so i took the story with a grain of salt. But I am curious, has anyone heard the term springer rage before? I have often considered getting a springer for grouse and pheasant. I like their looks and size as well. Do they make good house dogs as well? I have two small grandchildren who visit often so temperment is highly important. I also have three kennels (very reputable) within just a few hours drive from home.

eric

[Cajun Casey]

It is real. Good breeders know about it and try to eliminate it. Springer Rage, Idiopathic Rage Syndrome, whatever you want to call it, is likely genetic to a large degree and found in many dogs. It is probably a seizure type disorder. It is very dangerous, because there is little warning and the dogs are violent.

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues ... 639-1.html

[Ghosted3]

"bleep" I just sent in my deposit for my ESS last weekend... Oh well I still feel I made the best choice.

Corry

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

I believe I still have that Gun Dog issue about Springer rage from the 90's. It was especially found in show bred Springers but can be found in any dog, but is rare. For a Q & A on this subject go to site below.


http://www.vetinfo.com/daggressp.html

[Mike50]

I know of two people that can attest to the fact it's real and there's no way of know when it will hit. Both dogs were put down. One at 2 years of age the other at 4. Both dogs were good with kids and others up to that fatal day.

[jimbo&rooster]

this is interesting.... I have been considering a springer to replace my lab in a few years. Is this common in all of the spaniel breeds or is it limited to springers?

Jim

[DonF]

I had springer's back in theearly 70's. ead about it then but have never seen it. I believe it was primarly in show springer's.

[DougB]

I am on my second ESS. One of my brothers has a male that is out at stud once in a while. All are field bred. We and those we hunt with have not experienced it. One of the problems with even the term "Springer rage" is that any aggressive behavior gets called rage. It is not common, and is really rare in the real (field bred) ESS.

Your choice of an ESS is going to bring you a lot of joy in the future. Great dogs.

A discussion of rage syndrome based on research:
http://www.essfta.org/Health_Research/aggression.htm

[3Britts]

I had a springer for many years and never saw him get mad, except when the neighbor boy tried to put my dogs leg in a position that it shouldn't be in. Most my dog did in that case was growl loudly. My oldest son learned to stand by pulling himself to a standing position using the dog's ear while my dog sat in my chair. Good hunting dog, great family dog.

[Wildweeds]

I had springers before I got enamored with pointy dogs,I had 6 springers total,all were from the same parents and not ever did any of them exhibit a mean bone in their body,they were fantastic phesant dogs,all lived to be over the age of 10 with the matriarch making it to 16.My buddy also had springers he had 5 total and his father in law had another 2. One of my buddies did have the springer rage syndrome,it's actually easy to spot I think,the dog was always aloof,pretty growly and would get quite pissy for no good reason.My buddies kids were 4 and 6 years old and they were tormenting the dog by chunking rocks at it as it growled at them from under the porch.I caught them doing it and did what every uncle would do..................... skinned off my belt and tanned their butts a pretty shade of red and told them if I ever caught them OR heard about them tormenting the dog like that again the punishment would be worse.Their mother agreed and was glad that I gave em a whippin.Well about a year later the dog freaked out and bit the 4 year old right in the face and the kid still wears the scar.His mother hauled the dog to the vet and it was done that day.That dog was from show lines.Mine weren't registered so I couldn't tell you if they were field or show but they were very small dogs and the color on them was more dark than white,the female I had looked more like a german shorthair than a springer colorwise.The pups I had with her and the male I had always produced tri colors in the litter.

I would not worry about a magazine article and let it influence a choice for what could be with the right homework a once in a lifetime huntin dog.

[Lyco Setter]

You guys hunting an ESS should be on your toes, if one were to wrestle your gun away from you, you're toast.

[Montana]

OK... I've bred Springers for many, many years... When this issue first became a hot topic, I visited with Glenn Martyn about it. This would have been over 20 years ago. Glenn had been breeding Springers for much longer than I had. Glenn is a genetics expert and lived in Missoula, Montana at the time. Glenn has done about everything with dogs that you can imagine...he's trained dogs for the disabled, police departments, movies, etc., etc. etc.... Dogs are his life. He had traced "Rage" back to what he called an Eastern line of Springers from Show Lines. For more information on Glenn, check here:
http://www.oregontrufflefestival.com/d- ... artyn.html

For those of you who don't know, Springers from Show lines are completely different from Springers from Field Lines...they look nothing alike and their temperaments are different as well. A Springer from Show lines may or may not show an interest in hunting. A Springer from field lines lives to hunt and retrieve...they are relentless in the field. They really should be registered as separate breeds (not just my opinion....the opinion of many, many breeders). "Springer Rage" occurs in many different breeds...it's really not accurate to pigeon hole it to one breed, but that's what has happened.

I've yet to hear of a Springer from 100% field lines that has exhibited rage.. It's certainly possible, but in all the years I've bred these fine dogs I've yet to hear of it in field lines. I'm not a big time breeder, but in the past 20 plus years I've probably bred 40 to 50 litters. I've yet to have one report back on "Rage" or any other temperament problem... These dogs make wonderful hunting/family companions. They are gentle, great with kids, get along with other dogs (and cats!!), and will hunt until they drop. I currently have 4 Springers. My daughter has one also (from a litter I had a couple years ago).. The little girl who lives next to her (5 year old girl) will come over to her house and ask if "Ted" (her Springer) can come out to play.. I'll have a Springer until the day I die (probably a couple!). There is not a breed on the planet that can equal a good Springer on pheasants... That is their specialty, although they'll hunt most anything.

[legallyblonde]

I heard Dr. Reisner do a presentation on her study of this last year, and what many have said regarding breeding are correct per her study. She found that more than one-third of the dogs in the study had one particular kennel in their pedigree, a well-known show kennel, and most of the dogs came from show or pet breeding rather than hunting or field trials.

http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/can ... 0_1594.pdf

[gonehuntin']

In California, I used to train a few. I remember one in particular, "Socks". He trained just great,but then he'd be lying next to me at a tank blind and I'd be stroking his back. For no reason, he reach around and just nail me. Owner said he did it to him too.

Haven't had much use for Springers ever since then.

[Trekmoor]

I have never heard of Springer Rage in Britain. A few years ago there was a thing called "Cocker Rage Syndrom." This seemed to occur only among golden coloured show bred cockers and it stemmed from one particular line of dogs that were, unfortunately, fairly heavily bred from.

Dogs are too easily labelled with having some kind of "rage" but very often this seems to be mainly due to how they have been raised.

Bill T.

[phoneman45]

Thanks for all the info guys. I have been a pointing dog fan for many years and have owned a few Brittanies and Setters but was always intrigued by the springer. I can attest to rage in cockers though. In the summer of 99 I worked for a vet clinic part time as a kennel tech, My job was to clean kennels, exercise the dogs and administer baths when needed. (giving a 75lb Rottwieler a bath was an ordeal but another story) I remember an older retired couple who had a small blonde cocker that was a demon. When the dog was put on a leash to be taken out I had to open the door slowly and hold a slip lead with a self closing loop for the dog to slip its head thru as it tried to get out. I was warned to never touch the dog as it was extrememly aggressive. (I learned this was very true(. Once leashed the dog was very obedient once outside to do its business. However, when I took it back to its run I had to quickly open the kennel door and as the dog ran in I would drop the lead and the dog would shake off the leash. If I lingered at the kennel door the dog would fly at the kennel door barking and snapping and seemed intent on killing me if it got out. This was everytime I put it back in the kennel. AS the dogs owners travelled frequently the dog was a regular kennel guest. I do remember once though that they came to pick up the dog and as I led it into the waiting room it was overjoyed to see them, it jumped up on everyone including myself and allowed anyone to pet it, acting as if it was a pup. But the next visit everything returned to " normal" They could never explain its temperment. I havent cared for the breed since.

eric

[Montana]

Thanks for all the info guys. I have been a pointing dog fan for many years and have owned a few Brittanies and Setters but was always intrigued by the springer. I can attest to rage in cockers though. In the summer of 99 I worked for a vet clinic part time as a kennel tech, My job was to clean kennels, exercise the dogs and administer baths when needed. (giving a 75lb Rottwieler a bath was an ordeal but another story) I remember an older retired couple who had a small blonde cocker that was a demon. When the dog was put on a leash to be taken out I had to open the door slowly and hold a slip lead with a self closing loop for the dog to slip its head thru as it tried to get out. I was warned to never touch the dog as it was extrememly aggressive. (I learned this was very true(. Once leashed the dog was very obedient once outside to do its business. However, when I took it back to its run I had to quickly open the kennel door and as the dog ran in I would drop the lead and the dog would shake off the leash. If I lingered at the kennel door the dog would fly at the kennel door barking and snapping and seemed intent on killing me if it got out. This was everytime I put it back in the kennel. AS the dogs owners travelled frequently the dog was a regular kennel guest. I do remember once though that they came to pick up the dog and as I led it into the waiting room it was overjoyed to see them, it jumped up on everyone including myself and allowed anyone to pet it, acting as if it was a pup. But the next visit everything returned to " normal" They could never explain its temperment. I havent cared for the breed since.

eric

What you are describing with the Cocker isn't "Rage"... From what I understand, a dog with Rage will act perfectly normal and then out of nowhere it will attack and then return to normal like nothing had happened. I haven't read up on it in a while, but if I recall it's like the dog has a siezure.... It goes into a Rage and then afterwards the dog acts confused like it has no clue what had just happened.

[Montana]

In California, I used to train a few. I remember one in particular, "Socks". He trained just great,but then he'd be lying next to me at a tank blind and I'd be stroking his back. For no reason, he reach around and just nail me. Owner said he did it to him too.

Haven't had much use for Springers ever since then.

If a person came to your conclusion based on an experience with one dog, no one would own a dog of any breed.

[ACooper]

What you are describing with the Cocker isn't "Rage"... From what I understand, a dog with Rage will act perfectly normal and then out of nowhere it will attack and then return to normal like nothing had happened. I haven't read up on it in a while, but if I recall it's like the dog has a siezure.... It goes into a Rage and then afterwards the dog acts confused like it has no clue what had just happened.

I think you are correct, the "rage" isn't associated with a dog an aggressive dog or a dominate dog, though the dog could have rage and be dominate they are two totally different things. Much of what is being described in this thread is a dog with a bad attitude and or bad owners.

[gsp-fan]

We had a boxer that had this rage. Sweetest dog you have ever met and then bam she would have have an attack. She lived a short life died from
cancer (which started in her leg & went to her brain) at the age of 5. She had maybe 4 of these rage attacks in her life. Her attacks were directed at our other dogs.
No warning signs, nothing the other dogs it would last not last long. You would pull her off the dog (she never went for a human) and withing in a couple minutes
she was fine.

[MikeB]

MikeF

Here is one of the best books written on the subject and how this trainer fixed this dog.

http://www.amazon.com/Jelly-Bean-versus ... 0960129251

I met Bill Meisterfeld at a siminar in 1990 and have read all his books and followed his teachings for years. He changed the way I was training dogs by using his "trust & respect" methods. He was a good friend and highly respected trainer until he passed away May 2006. Anyone who ownes or trainers dogs can learn from his books.

More about the Author C. W. Bill Meisterfeld

http://www.e-trainingfordogs.com/2010/1 ... rfeld-bio/

[Stilly Bay]

I wouldn't concern myself over it. if you go through reputable breeders its about as common as winning megamillion tickets. I would be more worried about German wire hair Rage or Weim Rage.

[SGS47]

I personally have had 6 springer spaniels over a period of 20 years. I've hunted them, trained them, and trialed them. I've been around a huge number of field bred spaniels, and have never seen or heard of anyone that had that problem with one of their dogs. I think they are a fabulous bird dog and pet. They're smart, energetic, animated, easy to train, have a huge desire to please and have great dispositions. They're a great all around hunting dog and companion. The last 6 years, I've switched to setters, much to my wife's unhappiness, only because I do a lot of chukar hunting that requires larger running dogs. I wouldn't hesitate for a second getting a springer.

[snips]

I knew of a springer with Rage once..Starts with eye contact, and this dog ended up not tollerating even being touched. Had to be put down eventually.