Up to what age can pups play in the field ?

[Francois P vd Walt]

Taking pups for walks just running smelling and chasing butterflies, when does the training begin ?
Do you leave them to chase ? How old must they be to start reinforcing some dicipline ?

[Stoneface]

When I buy a new puppy I immediately start projecting dominance, but not necessarily discipline, punishment or correction. For the longest time I just take the pup into the field and let them have a ball chasing, like you said, butterflies. I also, as soon as I can, start releasing birds in the field where I run the pup. I go to any lengths I can to get good-flying birds that the pup can't catch. When the pup starts to encounter birds I make a point to stay out of the picture. No check cord, no talking, I'm not even present. If I have a pup that learns fast and steadies real quick, like Moxy did, I'll just sit down in the grass and watch. The birds teach so much more than we can, and they do it in ways the best trainer can't even begin to. From day one I start stressing that a dog comes when called. That's about my only requirement, but it's not up for discussion. That's the way it is and I have no problem giving a stout correction if a dog doens't come. Besides that, it's all fluff and fun.

If I don't plan on running the dog in trials or anything, then I don't worry with much else. No Whoa training or fetch training, outside of just trying to foster the natural ability. But, if I want to trial or anything like that then I'll start Whoa training much later. I put a huge emphasis on low stress training and really stay away from an eCollar as much as possible, so I fine with starting a dog on Whoa training at less than a year old. I know other people have no problem starting training this early, but I think most training techniques are just too stressful on the dogs and should certainly not be used on most dogs under a year. Cinna is ten months and I've been Whoa training her for about three weeks now. I actually did graduate her training to an eCollar because she's on the stubborn side and I think she's resilient enough to handle it. Moxy was about fourteen months before I started her training. In fact, until she was fourteen months all I did with her is put a recall on her, let her work birds she couldn't catch and run her as often as I could. I actually slipped up, though, and ran her on too many birds. She ended up tightening up her range so much that she wouldn't get farther out than about 20 yards, even if we were working a wide-open dirt field. She just wouldn't run. Got that straightened out, though, and she's doing tons better.

I'm not sure how you're using the word "discipline," but a lot of folks seem to use it interchangeably with "punishment." The words are different. Punishment can be a form of discipline, but a dog can be disciplined without being punished. For example, when the U.S. Marines are out on the grinder, going through their drills over and over and over again. They're not being punished, but they are being disciplined. By this I mean a dog just needs to be structured and understand what is expected of him and made to show manners and abide by the rules. I think it's important to start putting discipline into a dog from the time you get them, but never using more than mild punishment. As the pup grows it can take more punishment, especially when he's blatantly disregarding a command.

With regards to chasing game, I just let my dogs do it. If we're out in the field and they jump a rabbit or deer or whatever and chase it from here to Candada, I just grin and keep walking. In Delmar Smith's book he says something to the effect of a dog that is allowed to chase will learn on his own that is futile and will eventually not be so bad about it, but a dog that is punished for chasing game goes to the grave wanting to chase one more rabbit. Truer words were never spoken. I let my dogs chase all they want. As a result, after they've chased enough times, I can call them off without a hitch and they'll turn back to me and start working again. No biggie. Last year I had Moxy out at a public area that borders a blacktop road. I had the eCollar on her for insurance, but she jumped two rabbits in a thicket and they tore out, headed right for the road. I reached down, grabbed my eCollar and hollered for her. WIthout a hitch she veered off of the rabbits and rounded back in front of me and went right back to work. She'd chased all kinds of game for the entire year she'd been alive and I never called her of once until that time. Another time it was starting to rain and a Setter I just picked up from a guy in Kansas jumped a couple deer on the edge of the woods. I'd only had him for about a month, he'd only chased a few times and he was only ten months old. I didn't want to wait for him in the rain, so I hollered for him and he came right back. Just let them chase and figure out on their own that there's no chance of them catching whatever it is that pops out of the cover and they'll be more inclined to come back to you when you do call them off.

I have a question for you, though. Being from Africa, what kinds of things do your dogs root out of the cover besides game birds?

[Cajun Casey]

I hauled Casey off to the trainer when he started catching rabbits at a year old. He will take a deer across the county or run a hog to bay if you don't fry him off it. He is fast, smart and reckless. Coming three at the end of May and we finally decided to forcebreak him just to add some discipline. Other dogs, I don't even bother any more until they are a year or so old. Just let them tear up the woods and learn not to kill themselves, hopefully. I am not seeking hacked down cookie cutter dogs, so I choose to develop them as they come along skill qnd maturitywise.

[cjhills]

My answer to the question is 'til they die. Our dogs go for a run in the field almost every day of their lives. They know it's play time and hunt chipmunks and chase anything that will run. 7 of them are AKC Master titled dogs and were doing this while they ran there tests they know the difference. there is know disipline on these walks. except recall and heel on the way home and they are not allowed to chase deer. Because in my neighborhood dogs die young for that. They are free to do what ever they want.
Also if you have to punish you have missed something. In spite of how it seems dogs don't do things just to piss us off. .
We also start whoa training at their food dish and kennel door, in and out at a very young age 8 to 10 weeks. We like the training to sneak up on the pup so one day when he is running you in the field you tell him whoa and he stops because thats what he has always done, not because he was forced to. Conditioned response. Thanks CJ

[Francois P vd Walt]

[quote
I have a question for you, though. Being from Africa, what kinds of things do your dogs root out of the cover besides game birds?[/quote]

We have rabbits, squirrels, rats, mice, duiker, steenbuck( many small buck species) mongoose and all his friends, porcupine, wild pig or boar wart hog on the big open farm areas there are lots of furry animals, they like to test the dogs. It takes a while to become a pointer half the time they dissapoint, ha !

[SCT]

It's interesting how everyone has their own ideas about this question, but the dogs turn out okay all of the variety of training.

I take the pup to the big country for walks with no discipline at all. Only there for fun to gain confidence in nature. They get to chase wild birds, point some upland birds if we come across them, and I'll occasionally plant a few birds (which need to flush wild). When the pup is old enough they will get fried for chasing deer as that can only get them into trouble. That's the only time they get to feel that kind of electricity. Next time they see a deer they think "oh man, that last one hurt". But, to each his own on this subject. I water them when we get to the truck and they learn that's a good thing. I teach them to come without correction when very young and when they get old enough to ignore me, I'll do some yard training. I don't shock them for not coming, that may end up being their default reaction to other corrections later on in life. After a hunting season with lots of wild birds under their belt I will start the breaking process.

That's just one way to skin a cat,

Steve

[RayGubernat]

Taking pups for walks just running smelling and chasing butterflies, when does the training begin ?
Do you leave them to chase ? How old must they be to start reinforcing some dicipline ?

This may sound like a non-answer, but here goes....

When I take a youngster to the field just running, smelling, chasing butterflies and junk birds and such IS TRAINING. The dog is learning to use all of it's senses, it is learning how to use its legs, how to traverse different kinds of cover, learning where the interesting stuff is likely to be hiding and leaning to keep one eye on me and where I am going. The only real discipline they get in the field is when they go their own way and find themselves alone. That usually gets them religion. The other thing that I do is carry water. I will run a young dog in areas that have no water. If the dog wants a drink, it learns to come in when I call. Otherwise it goes thirsty. Most often, they lean that coming in when i call is a very good thing.

The training they get is in the yard. That starts at 8 weeks and continues until they die.

Typically, my pointer pups start to tell me they are ready to point birds at about 8-10 months of age. I do not let them run at large during the breaking process, but instead keep them under tight control, on checkcords and such. Once the dog is green broke and somewhat reliable, I allow them to run at large again because I have the confidence that the dog will stop and stand...at least as long as it takes for me to get to the dog. Most of the time anyway.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

Taking pups for walks just running smelling and chasing butterflies, when does the training begin ?
Do you leave them to chase ? How old must they be to start reinforcing some dicipline ?

This may sound like a non-answer, but here goes....

When I take a youngster to the field just running, smelling, chasing butterflies and junk birds and such IS TRAINING. The dog is learning to use all of it's senses, it is learning how to use its legs, how to traverse different kinds of cover, learning where the interesting stuff is likely to be hiding and leaning to keep one eye on me and where I am going. The only real discipline they get in the field is when they go their own way and find themselves alone. That usually gets them religion. The other thing that I do is carry water. I will run a young dog in areas that have no water. If the dog wants a drink, it learns to come in when I call. Otherwise it goes thirsty. Most often, they lean that coming in when i call is a very good thing.

The training they get is in the yard. That starts at 8 weeks and continues until they die.

Typically, my pointer pups start to tell me they are ready to point birds at about 8-10 months of age. I do not let them run at large during the breaking process, but instead keep them under tight control, on checkcords and such. Once the dog is green broke and somewhat reliable, I allow them to run at large again because I have the confidence that the dog will stop and stand...at least as long as it takes for me to get to the dog. Most of the time anyway.

As far as playing with "bleep" birds and such, I don't pay much mind to any of that and it usually takes care of itself. If the dog is messing with off game, I do actively discourage that.

RayG

[Sharon]

Taking pups for walks just running smelling and chasing butterflies, when does the training begin ?
Do you leave them to chase ? How old must they be to start reinforcing some dicipline ?

Pup is learning on every walk. Let him chase. Essential learning. You training is probably unimportant at this time. A lot of training goes on without the handler running the show. Pup learning he can't catch a bird is another example.Socialization opportunities are essential too now.

You need a programme . Consider "Puppy Development ' by Huntsmith

http://info.drsophiayin.com/Default.asp ... onList.pdf

[Francois P vd Walt]

It's interesting how everyone has their own ideas about this question, but the dogs turn out okay all of the variety of training.

I take the pup to the big country for walks with no discipline at all. Only there for fun to gain confidence in nature. They get to chase wild birds, point some upland birds if we come across them, and I'll occasionally plant a few birds (which need to flush wild). When the pup is old enough they will get fried for chasing deer as that can only get them into trouble. That's the only time they get to feel that kind of electricity. Next time they see a deer they think "oh man, that last one hurt". But, to each his own on this subject. I water them when we get to the truck and they learn that's a good thing. I teach them to come without correction when very young and when they get old enough to ignore me, I'll do some yard training. I don't shock them for not coming, that may end up being their default reaction to other corrections later on in life. After a hunting season with lots of wild birds under their belt I will start the breaking process.

That's just one way to skin a cat,

Steve

+1 I agree 100% the dogs all turn out good hunting buddies, with different personalities and that makes dogging great !

[zzweims]

[

When I take a youngster to the field just running, smelling, chasing butterflies and junk birds and such IS TRAINING.

What he said

Aline Curran

[Francois P vd Walt]

Just a update - the pups played around sniffing chasing butterflies stopped pointed and whoopee out flies a bird !
Now pup points scent and everything in sight, new game and my boss likes it ! Ha
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/ go read more and see picture

[Hattrick]

cjhills i like ur style!!! I exspose my pups to everthing at a young age in a controlled enviroment