Steadiness for MH?

[Stoneface]

You're trying to finish a MH and your dog scores two finds. Each bird flies behind the dog and the dog turns - doesn't break point, just turns - to mark the bird. Typically, will this dog have a problem earning his MH title?

[DonF]

Probably. I wouldn't give it a thought though. I thin k it isjust good dog work for the dog to turn to mark a bird and to step out of cover to mark a bird. But the dog must stop on it's own.

[Brittguy]

for this to happen twice in a row, I would give some thought to my flushing efforts.

[RoostersMom]

If he moves his feet, he can fail. Rooster passed one of his 6 legs for MH and he moved a leg to mark the bird. He doesn't typically do that and the judge said if he had moved more than that, he would have failed. It was the only time he'd moved on a bird, but I can see where another judge might have failed him.

[cjhills]

The rule says one or two steps to mark the bird. But,he has to stop on his own. No whoa.
But some judges make their own rules. They shouldn't dq for a turn. But they might thats when it is nice to have a AKC rep handy. But don't question it if you plan on running under that judge again.
CJ

[dan v]

You're trying to finish a MH and your dog scores two finds. Each bird flies behind the dog and the dog turns - doesn't break point, just turns - to mark the bird. Typically, will this dog have a problem earning his MH title?

If that is the only issue, the dog should receive a qualifying score.

[DonF]

One of my biggest complaint's in AKC was judging. I don't know what most of them were thinking. I judged a hunting test on Sauvies Island years ago and had a pro with a pointer down. The pointer took off at the break away and wasn't seen again till we entered the bird field 20 or so min later. I gave it a failing score on obedience. Handler was ripped. He told me two other AKC judges had passed the dog and it did the same thing. Judges make or break the crediability of the format. A lot of them don't seem to care.

A couple weeks ago I judged that shooting dog stake with AF judge Larry Floyd. As I watched dogs do thing's they'd be picked up for in AKC he just rode on, left the dog on the ground and gave the dog every chance to redeem itself. Best judge I've ever judged with, I was in shock! Judges make it or break it.

[Carolina Gundogs]

I have put MH titles on two of my females. With either, if the bird flew by them to where they could not mark it, they would jump straight up spin around 180 degrees and look as though they landed in their same foot tracks. I never had a judge question either dog on their steadiness when they did this. They always received high scores.

[Sharon]

I lost a trial because of that. I was told that the dog can pivot but hind legs can't move. Depends on the judge.

[Ruffshooter]

Depends on the judges; Some have not a proper clue. Some don't actually hunt. The good ones will see it for what it is. Basically they do not want forward movement towards the bird. Marking the bird is a great thing.

[RayGubernat]

I do not judge hunt tests. However, I just read over the rules and there is nothing specific in there regarding moving to mark.

I checked the AKC pointing breed field trial rules and they stated the following:

1-H A reasonable move of a dog to mark a bird flushed after a point is acceptable, but this shall not excuse a break or a delayed chase.

I cannot see where a hunt test should be judged to a higher standard than a field trial.

I will say this: in the American Field, if your dog takes a step toward the bird...the dog is done... pretty much every time.

Moving to mark is one of those things that is constantly being incorrectly judged, by lots of folks, some who do not have enough experience with real life hunting situations and also by some who are looking for reasons to knock a dog down.

My personal opinion is that a movement to mark is an indication that the dog is actually hunted and is looking to execute a retrieve. I believe this should be considered a positive, if done smartly and correctly or at worst..a nothing. I do not care if a dog spins around 180 degrees and stands on its hind legs to watch where the bird goes as long as the dog makes no forward progress toward the bird. In fact the one time I did see just exactly that, I was pretty impressed.

RayG

[DonF]

Ray, I asked a long time field trialer and judge about that years ago. His answer was that the dogs are all so close in abilities that that movement helps define a good dog. I couldn;'t believe he told me that.

Someone mentioned judges that don't. I have a friend that has been a judge about 30 yrs now. He has never hunted wild birds in his life! He lives to field trial.

[dan v]

I lost a trial because of that. I was told that the dog can pivot but hind legs can't move. Depends on the judge.

The original question wasn't about winning or losing a FT due to movement to mark.

Here's what the AKC has to say about "marking" at the MH level.

Normally, a dog can move or turn in
place to mark the fall of the bird, provided no significant
forward motion is made. This allows movement if the
bird should happen to fly behind the dog but,
again, there should be no significant forward motion.

A question, “How much forward motion is allowed?” —
a few steps to mark the fall or out of enthusiasm, if the
dog stops without command, would be permissible.

Pretty easy to understand.

[RayGubernat]

Ray, I asked a long time field trialer and judge about that years ago. His answer was that the dogs are all so close in abilities that that movement helps define a good dog. I couldn;'t believe he told me that.

Someone mentioned judges that don't. I have a friend that has been a judge about 30 yrs now. He has never hunted wild birds in his life! He lives to field trial.

Like I said...there are judges that look for rerasons to knock a dog down. Movement to mark, if done correctly, should never be held against a dog. It is, if done well, a positive attribute and it shows both a burning desire on the part of the dog to "get the bird" which we are all after(or should be), and a high level of training and discipline...to be able to contain that desire and intensity.

I don't have a problem with folks not having hunted wild birds. To me, that is a rather small part of the hunting experience as far as judging a dog'sperformance is concerned. It is valuable experience, to be sure. However, i believe but it is the being out there and hunting birds, of ANY knd, over a dog that is the experience needed, IMO.

A field trial or hunt test is an idealized construct with rules and restrictions and facets, many of which are not present in an actual hunt. There is no course that must be followed for example. The hunter(s), most often only has a very general idea of where the birds might be at that particular point in the day, or if they are even there. There is no time limitation. It is not (usually) done off horseback. it is usually done with one to three hunters, and not a mounted or walking gallery. The focus is, at least as much on bringing the bird to bag as it is on the performance of the dog...etc.

When you hunt a dog for two, three or four hours...or all day... you begin to understand that they are not machines, not cookie cutter replicas of one another, but rather flesh and blood creatures that are individuals and do things in their own particular ways. You begin to understand and even to appreciate those differences. You come to understand that different is not necessarily bad or good, but that it very often depends on the situation.

You will often come to appreciate and value the multiple parts of the dog's hunting performance differently. If a dog is hunting for, say four hours, with daily bag limits what they are in most areas, you are getting to see that dog running for a good part of that time. So watching a dog run, cover terrain, seek out birdy places and run on the correct side of the wind is something you will learn to watch for and appreciate. Having the dog pop out every so often so you can keep tabs on them becomes a really nice thing to have happen also.

Seeing that dog locked up, waaaay out to the front... and walking to that point, then flushing and shooting that game over a proud, staunch or steady point make one understand that you only need to see it done once... to know it was done right because in a real world hunt...that might be the only find the dog has. Multiple finds are a joy, and they do have value, especially for the Gun Dog or Shooting Dog or the hunt Test dog, because the dog's ability to find as finding as many of the birds out there as possible, is indeed the name of the game for most hunters. However, multiple finds usually cannot impress like that one find that made the hair stand up on the back of your neck.

Stuff like that can give you a benchmark by which to compare. At least I think so.

RayG

[ultracarry]

Good post Ray. Makes me want to judge some hunt tests.

[Sharon]

I lost a trial because of that. I was told that the dog can pivot but hind legs can't move. Depends on the judge.

The original question wasn't about winning or losing a FT due to movement to mark.

Here's what the AKC has to say about "marking" at the MH level.

Normally, a dog can move or turn in
place to mark the fall of the bird, provided no significant
forward motion is made. This allows movement if the
bird should happen to fly behind the dog but,
again, there should be no significant forward motion.

A question, “How much forward motion is allowed?” —
a few steps to mark the fall or out of enthusiasm, if the



dog stops without command, would be permissible.

Pretty easy to understand.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[topher40]

I know nothing about this format, although awarding a dog a MH title to a dog that is turning to mark birds is not very "masterful". :roll:

[RayGubernat]

I know nothing about this format, although awarding a dog a MH title to a dog that is turning to mark birds is not very "masterful". :roll:

Sorry. I simply do not agree with that. Masterful should not translate "Mechanical". A dog that looks like it was chiseled out of stone through flush and shot might be a totally made up dog that has been trained to "assume the position"... on cue. That is fine, as far as that goes, but it ain't the best it can be.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dog turning to mark flight. That is not just my opinion. From the hunter's perspective there can be something very right about it also.

Things are tough enough on the dogs in tests and trialsmost of the time. We don't need to invent reasons for them not to succeed.
RayG

[topher40]

Twice in the same brace would indicate to me a lack of training or as a previous poster stated, they would look at the way in which they flush the birds.

[ultracarry]

30 mph wind (Dog points into the wind right). Handler flushed bird and it makes a hard right turn almost knocked the dog in the head. Dog turns and did not make any forward progress toward the bird. Gunner shoots said bird and it drops at 30-40 yards. Dogs retrieves the dead bird to hand... Don't see anything wrong with that.

Take the same scenario and the dog almost gets hit in the head, tail drops and the dog crouches to make sure the bird doesn't hit it. Looks like garbage and can't find the bird for five minutes....

Rather have scenario 1.

[cjhills]

That is what makes hunting tests so tough, the rules for the op's situation are perfectly written, straight forward and no way to misinterpret the rule. Still about 50% of the judges would DQ the dog .
Then, when, you get to the grey areas it is anybodies guess what will happen.
No offense to Dan or anybody else, but alot of judges do not have a clue about the rules. They have been doing it wrong for so long they think it's right. It works both ways, passing dogs that shouldn't more often than dqing dogs that should pass. Thankfully most dogs make it easy. Most of the people who tell you how good they are at handling and how good their dogs are don't show you the score card. Keep your rule book handy and hopr their is AKC rep present .
we need consistency in judging or hunt test will be nonexistent very soon.
Cj

[dan v]

That is what makes hunting tests so tough, the rules for the op's situation are perfectly written, straight forward and no way to misinterpret the rule. Still about 50% of the judges would DQ the dog .
Then, when, you get to the grey areas it is anybodies guess what will happen.
No offense to Dan or anybody else, but alot of judges do not have a clue about the rules. They have been doing it wrong for so long they think it's right. It works both ways, passing dogs that shouldn't more often than dqing dogs that should pass. Thankfully most dogs make it easy. Most of the people who tell you how good they are at handling and how good their dogs are don't show you the score card. Keep your rule book handy and hopr their is AKC rep present .
we need consistency in judging or hunt test will be nonexistent very soon.
Cj

Jerry...The HT program will be in jeopardy due to the fact that the judges pool is shrinking. Look at the area you run in. Who is the "new" judge?

[cjhills]

We hope Judges using four wheelers will help that. A lot of younger people don't want to deal with horses of there own and the expense of hauling, or riding some of the horses we see. I've seen some pretty rank horses at tests especially early in the year. Plus four wheelers cut down on the club expenses. lack of training birds this year hurt you guys too.
Dan, Missed down there on Saturday at the black dog test. All of my dogs are finished or just starting. Cj

[dan v]

We hope Judges using four wheelers will help that. A lot of younger people don't want to deal with horses of there own and the expense of hauling, or riding some of the horses we see. I've seen some pretty rank horses at tests especially early in the year. Plus four wheelers cut down on the club expenses. lack of training birds this year hurt you guys too.
Dan, Missed down there on Saturday at the black dog test. All of my dogs are finished or just starting. Cj

We had a small entry. One course on both days. On Sat, 5 MH dogs, no SH dogs and like 15-16 JH dogs. Sunday had 2 SH dogs in addition.

That seems to be the new normal, mid 20's for dogs. Our test probably lost $50-100 this year. Birds were $5.25, grounds $100/day, plus $2.50/dog dog tax, plus the AKC fees $3.50/dog and $35/day. One of the Sat judges hit us pretty hard for expenses. We typically provide lunch for free, but that small perk probably is done with as well. We charged $40- JH, $45 - SH/MH

Jerry...having wheelers will bring anew person to the judging, but AKC requires a new judge to have passed the test, apprenticed like twice, and have either passed or finished a dog at the level they are going to judge. Now looking back at how many people locally used the services of a pro, who can meet the criteria? And of those, who wants to judge? Maybe you?

[dan v]

We hope Judges using four wheelers will help that. A lot of younger people don't want to deal with horses of there own and the expense of hauling, or riding some of the horses we see. I've seen some pretty rank horses at tests especially early in the year. Plus four wheelers cut down on the club expenses. lack of training birds this year hurt you guys too.
Dan, Missed down there on Saturday at the black dog test. All of my dogs are finished or just starting. Cj

We had a small entry. One course on both days. On Sat, 5 MH dogs, no SH dogs and like 15-16 JH dogs. Sunday had 2 SH dogs in addition.

That seems to be the new normal, mid 20's for dogs. Our test probably lost $50-100 this year. Birds were $5.25, grounds $100/day, plus $2.50/dog dog tax, plus the AKC fees $3.50/dog and $35/day. One of the Sat judges hit us pretty hard for expenses. We typically provide lunch for free, but that small perk probably is done with as well. We charged $40- JH, $45 - SH/MH

Jerry...having wheelers will bring anew person to the judging, but AKC requires a new judge to have passed the test, apprenticed like twice, and have either passed or finished a dog at the level they are going to judge. Now looking back at how many people locally used the services of a pro, who can meet the criteria? And of those, who wants to judge? You did your training yourself, so maybe you'll take up judging?

[cjhills]

I have gave that some very serious thought and being able to ride a four wheeler rather than have to have horses and trailer or ride some of the horses I have seen would be a definite plus. Unfortunately, as bad as I hate to admit this, I am just getting to "bleep" old. At 90 eight hours in the saddle is a bit much.
I think the days of twenty brace masters are over, due to many factors not the least being the economy. The pros are not getting as many hunt test dogs to train and it is getting more exspensive to train our dogs. Another sign of the times
Also, don't get me wrong, I do understand judging is not a easy task and is pretty much a thankless job. But most times, at least from what I have seen, The dogs make it easy. If they are good enough to pass they do and if not they take themselves out. Mine do anyhow. I do like the chance to plead my case on the questionable calls and I do think if you are a judge or a handler you need to know rules and question what you think is the wrong interpretation. My swedish momma taught me not to back down from a good argument.
Sorry about the hijack. Back to the op the dog should pass if that is the only issue and I would like to meet the people who can control the flight of a pen raised quail so well that they never have had on fly over the dogs head. If you were hunting with a dog that didn't turn to mark a bird you would probably put it back in the truck or worse.
There is know such thing as handler error the dog is just not trained good enough. CJ

[JKP]

If he moves his feet, he can fail. Rooster passed one of his 6 legs for MH and he moved a leg to mark the bird. He doesn't typically do that and the judge said if he had moved more than that, he would have failed. It was the only time he'd moved on a bird, but I can see where another judge might have failed him.

We're not talking a hunting dog...sometimes its about the rules....you have to follow them to get the prize. Any hunting dog of mine that doesn't relocate on its own....won't move to mark the fall....won't be fed by me for long. May look pretty but its impractical.

[RayGubernat]

If he moves his feet, he can fail. Rooster passed one of his 6 legs for MH and he moved a leg to mark the bird. He doesn't typically do that and the judge said if he had moved more than that, he would have failed. It was the only time he'd moved on a bird, but I can see where another judge might have failed him.

We're not talking a hunting dog...sometimes its about the rules....you have to follow them to get the prize. Any hunting dog of mine that doesn't relocate on its own....won't move to mark the fall....won't be fed by me for long. May look pretty but its impractical.

JKP -

Any competitive venue is(or should be) about waaay more than the hunting ability of the dog. The hunting ability of the dog is where it should START. If your hunting dog turns to mark flight and even takes a couple of steps, are you going to lower your gun, not take the shot and then leash the dog and quit hunting for the day? Of course not. I would not either. It is hunting, not competing.

The ability of the dog to take training is one of the things that competitive events such as field trials, measure. So too does the hunt test construct where the dogs are meaured against a standard. If a dog can be trained to remain steady in the face of a flush and not chase...that means the dog posesses the ability to be trained to that level. That is good news for the hunter, whether or not the hunter ever desires to train a dog to that level.

Why?? Because pups from a dog that has demonstrated that level of accomplishment are much more likely to be trainable to whatever level the hunter needs or desires.

I can assure you that it is a whole lot harder to get and keep a pointing dog to be reliably steady to wing and shot...than the other way around. I can also assure you that most dogs, if given half a chance, will gladly give chase once the bird is in the air, despite all the steadiness training and ability they previously received and demnonstrated.

Most hunters don't have to worry about whether the dog will turn to mark flight or not. It will do its level best to be under the bird with its jaws open when their shot makes it fall from the sky. That's hunting and that is just fine by me.

RayG

[phermes1]

As a HT judge, I will not fail a dog for turning to mark the fall of a bird. I expect it, and barring 'significant forward motion', it's practically a non-event.

Are there judges that will fail a dog for that? Absolutely.

[MillerClemsonHD]

Marking is a very grey area for judges and handlers. One guy says his dog turned to mark and moved 1 foot or maybe 2. Next guys dog moves 3, but was just "turning to mark" so where do you draw the line? Right or wrong there are probably many judges who would rather not have to split hairs or try to explain how 1 is a mark and one was movement. What if the dog take 4-5 steps sideways to see to mark around a tree? It isn't going forward its trying to mark. Is it a mark until the handler says whoa and then it is movement? I don't mind a dog marking, but there is no need to move to do it.

We talk about this so much because in a test or a trial with throw down birds there is only 1 bird at most finds. On wild birds when you have a covey of 15-20 birds I want my dog watching forward because that is the direction I'm shooting.

[Buckeye_V]

Turning to mark a falling bird or flying bird for a breed required to retrieve should not be penalizied. Period. Like I don't want my RETRIEVER to not know where to start looking for the bird to save time so we can go find another bird. Give me a break. You guys need to see the forest through the trees. :roll:

[Chukar12]

In a trial things are judged and not scored and unless we keep that perspective it's easy to become disenchanted; a test is pass or fail and that makes us even more sensitive about judges being different I believe. In my opinion the rule is meant to measure whether a dog is sufficiently disciplined to avoid the natural forward movement that comes from pursuing a bird. I look at it this way, if a bird flies to the front, a dog has no reason to significantly adjust its front or back feet. If a bird flies directly over and behind a dog in the 90 degree cone behind his tail bone and the dog turns to mark keeping the same piece of real estate it had to begin with; its a non issue. A dog that has to "walk, hop, or sidestep" to see a bird is going to get a more critical eye up to and including failure or a severe penalty on placements depending on the severity.

[V-John]

Turning to mark a falling bird or flying bird for a breed required to retrieve should not be penalizied. Period. Like I don't want my RETRIEVER to not know where to start looking for the bird to save time so we can go find another bird. Give me a break. You guys need to see the forest through the trees. :roll:

Agreed. Too many of these "bleep" judges have never hunted before. That's a huge detriment, I think.

[Ruffshooter]

IMHO[quote="MillerClemsonHD"]Marking is a very grey area for judges and handlers. Sorry there is nothing grey about it.It is basic common sense and knowing how to hunt and how dogs work.
What if the dog take 4-5 steps sideways to see to mark around a tree? If it stopped on its own and did not advance on the bird by more than a few steps or couple if you will. Going around the tree to see the bird is just good bird dog work. b]quote]
It is never a mark if the handler whoas the dog. IMHO.

[MillerClemsonHD]

IMHO

Marking is a very grey area for judges and handlers. Sorry there is nothing grey about it.It is basic common sense and knowing how to hunt and how dogs work.
What if the dog take 4-5 steps sideways to see to mark around a tree? If it stopped on its own and did not advance on the bird by more than a few steps or couple if you will. Going around the tree to see the bird is just good bird dog work. b]quote]
It is never a mark if the handler whoas the dog. IMHO.

I agree with you, but there are many folks that do not have that level of knowledge. There are judges and handlers that don't hunt. You have handlers that haven't seen a high level of work before. Just like the guy who runs his dog at a FT, and sits at the truck the rest of the day and complains bc he got beat. He has no idea why he got beat bc he did not watch a single brace other than the one he ran his dog in. What some people see as a mark others see as movement. To me being able to tell if a dog is marking or moving comes with exp and seeing many different dogs work in different situations including hunting, training, test, trials, etc.