Breeding sight-unseen, would you?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:13 pm

I know it's easy to jump to the conclusion when someone posts a question on here that it is directly pertaining to an authentic situation, but this is not. I don't have a stud picked out for Moxy and am not looking for advice. I'm a huge genetics/breeding buff and am asking this just to see what the experienced breeders have to say.

In your opinion, is it ever okay to breed to a dog without seeing him first hand? Would you ever? Maybe you hear about the dog from some friends whose opinion you respect, look him up on the internet and his pedigree is exactly what you've been looking for in a prospective stud. Or, maybe you've heard about this dog, but he lives 2,500 miles away from you and you can't get to him to evaluate him in time for your bitch's next cycle and she's getting on in age. Or, maybe you've seen a lot of pups that this line, kennel or dog has thrown and you want to infuse some of it into your kennel.

Would you use a stud without seeing him in person? Why or why not?

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:20 pm

Yes, I have many times and the pups were always very good - achieving what I was after for the most part. IMO, the opinion of a trusted, seasoned Pro is worth far more than my opinion on a dog.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:27 pm

slistoe wrote:Yes, I have many times and the pups were always very good - achieving what I was after for the most part. IMO, the opinion of a trusted, seasoned Pro is worth far more than my opinion on a dog.

So the breeding was done strictly on the suggestion of a pro?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:37 pm

How about if he's been dead fifteen years? :roll:

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 04, 2012 9:47 pm

Stoneface wrote:
slistoe wrote:Yes, I have many times and the pups were always very good - achieving what I was after for the most part. IMO, the opinion of a trusted, seasoned Pro is worth far more than my opinion on a dog.
So the breeding was done strictly on the suggestion of a pro?

One was. I phoned him up and said "If you were to breed to any dog in the country right now which one would it be."

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat May 05, 2012 6:11 pm

I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:25 pm

gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)

How about the dog that produced the winner of the national, thats the one I would want if available

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat May 05, 2012 7:58 pm

I got the been dead fifteen years beat by 13 more years and that sire is HOF. Quite frankly the pup from that and a RU AA dam ain't any nicer than the pups from the litter I had that was 8 years in the making selecting the right female.Ran them against each other today,the modern bred dog did better than the freezer jam.Almost every AKC setter litter is going to be bred from an AF CH that the breeder has never seen the dog in anything but a picture.They then wonder why they get quirky pups.I've seen enough Jettsetter pups to give a thumbs up,I've seen Airbenders littermate,and full sister,have enough confidence to say thumbs up on that one also.I've got a short list of no way jose's too

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat May 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Wildweeds wrote:I got the been dead fifteen years beat by 13 more years and that sire is HOF. Quite frankly the pup from that and a RU AA dam ain't any nicer than the pups from the litter I had that was 8 years in the making selecting the right female.Ran them against each other today,the modern bred dog did better than the freezer jam.Almost every AKC setter litter is going to be bred from an AF CH that the breeder has never seen the dog in anything but a picture.They then wonder why they get quirky pups.I've seen enough Jettsetter pups to give a thumbs up,I've seen Airbenders littermate,and full sister,have enough confidence to say thumbs up on that one also.I've got a short list of no way jose's too

The few setters I've been around, I will say Jetsetter offspring consistently have the BEST temperaments. And they are lookers.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat May 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Thanks for all the input, everyone. This post got buried a little and I was starting to wonder if it was going to be a dud.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat May 05, 2012 11:59 pm

ACooper wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
How about the dog that produced the winner of the national, thats the one I would want if available

I think its all tied to Millers White Powder as far as the recent ones. I have two of his daughters here and looking for a son to own. For a few generations out and non frozen I am sort of partial to Snowatch since he already produced the best male i have owned.

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Sun May 06, 2012 1:47 am

I have a son of White Powder to a daughter of Silver Bullet that I am willing to deal on. SCK

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun May 06, 2012 2:24 am

It is the direction i want to go in. I will pm.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun May 06, 2012 8:28 am

ACooper wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
How about the dog that produced the winner of the national, thats the one I would want if available

And if I'm not crazy about the sire I would look to getting something off of the dam.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun May 06, 2012 9:49 am

Ron R wrote:
ACooper wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
How about the dog that produced the winner of the national, thats the one I would want if available
And if I'm not crazy about the sire I would look to getting something off of the dam.

Good point.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun May 06, 2012 4:03 pm

gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)

I've never seen Rail Hawk work. What do you think of him? What makes you think he'll win the big one some day?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon May 07, 2012 1:15 am

Stoneface wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
I've never seen Rail Hawk work. What do you think of him? What makes you think he'll win the big one some day?

I will admit i am biased towards him, i own his grandmother and we are breeding Jack back to her. Also i have his half brother out of his dams full sister from their blackhawk breedings. But Jack has a very strong win record to date for his young age and is already Ames qualified. He also has shown a good placement in the purina points running.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Fri May 11, 2012 12:11 pm

Stoneface wrote:I know it's easy to jump to the conclusion when someone posts a question on here that it is directly pertaining to an authentic situation, but this is not. I don't have a stud picked out for Moxy and am not looking for advice. I'm a huge genetics/breeding buff and am asking this just to see what the experienced breeders have to say.

In your opinion, is it ever okay to breed to a dog without seeing him first hand? Would you ever? Maybe you hear about the dog from some friends whose opinion you respect, look him up on the internet and his pedigree is exactly what you've been looking for in a prospective stud. Or, maybe you've heard about this dog, but he lives 2,500 miles away from you and you can't get to him to evaluate him in time for your bitch's next cycle and she's getting on in age. Or, maybe you've seen a lot of pups that this line, kennel or dog has thrown and you want to infuse some of it into your kennel.

Would you use a stud without seeing him in person? Why or why not?

I'm breeding my "Sam" dog to a dog in Texas that I've never seen in person, and I have a pup coming from another kennel in Texas that is Sired by CH Elhew Explorer... I ain't skeered.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri May 11, 2012 2:16 pm

We bred our first litter to a dog in Kansas sight-unseen. He’d won the NVA’s NAFC 3 times, runner-up in the NFC twice. We’d seen several pictures of him and his offspring, and had heard positive things from people whose opinions we respected. In hindsight, it was an excellent decision. Couldn’t be happier with what we got out of the breeding, both in terms of looks and field ability.

Insisting on seeing the potential stud firsthand is a good way of ensuring you always breed to local dogs, which eliminates a ton of potentially excellent choices.

Christopher · Post by **Christopher** » Fri May 11, 2012 4:15 pm

For starters, I've never bred dogs but I've bred lots of cows to bulls that I had never seen. But I would think that the same would be true. That is, if a dog is tried and true, his progeny is predictable and has the traits you want, then use him. If he isn't as tried and true, then I might be more apt to going and seeing him. And perhaps some of the pups he has sired.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Sat May 12, 2012 8:49 pm

I used to do it all the time back when I was single. It was dark in the bar, dark outside, dark in the car, dark in the bedroom and she was gone before I woke up. Oh you mean dogs.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sat May 12, 2012 8:58 pm

gotpointers wrote:
Stoneface wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
I've never seen Rail Hawk work. What do you think of him? What makes you think he'll win the big one some day?
I will admit i am biased towards him, i own his grandmother and we are breeding Jack back to her. Also i have his half brother out of his dams full sister from their blackhawk breedings. But Jack has a very strong win record to date for his young age and is already Ames qualified. He also has shown a good placement in the purina points running.

If your dog is out of a full sister wouldnt he be more than a half brother?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun May 13, 2012 1:43 am

I will admit i am biased towards him, i own his grandmother and we are breeding Jack back to her. Also i have his half brother out of his dams full sister from their blackhawk breedings. But Jack has a very strong win record to date for his young age and is already Ames qualified. He also has shown a good placement in the purina points running.[/quote]

If your dog is out of a full sister wouldnt he be more than a half brother?[/quote]

I consider them brothers since everything lines up exactly the same except for two sisters names,but i didint want to step on any toes.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun May 13, 2012 1:53 am

sckwest1 wrote:I have a son of White Powder to a daughter of Silver Bullet that I am willing to deal on. SCK

I would like to publicly thank Scott for offering Steelcity Stock Option. And Roosters Mom for getting him here to NM

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun May 13, 2012 12:12 pm

Wow, from the roomers, it sounds like you've got a heck of a nice new dog, GP. Hope you enjoy him.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun May 13, 2012 11:43 pm

Stoneface wrote:Wow, from the roomers, it sounds like you've got a heck of a nice new dog, GP. Hope you enjoy him.

Thanks, I think It is going to work out well.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Mon May 14, 2012 7:25 am

I always wonder...if a dog was so good, so prepotent, why aren't there progeny that are as a good or better? IMO, great dogs produce great get, that also produce. Also....the passing of time tends to magnify what was....there is a certain emotional impulse to thinking we can capture the greatness of the past.

Good luck.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon May 14, 2012 1:21 pm

Prepotency isn't always passed on, depending on how tight the genetics are. When you breed a brother to a sister they have like genetics and the pups will come out with like genetics. Gene's are made up of what's called an allele and there are multiple alleles at each locus, which, together, determine what will be visible when you look at the dog. For example, the allele for black coat would be B and for liver would be b. B is dominant over b, so if you have BB, bB or Bb, then the coat will be black or have some black. The only way to have liver to to have a bb.

So, when have a dog that is prepotent (it's usually a tightly-bred dog) they throw a lot of dominant genes for given traits. If you breed a Honky Tonk Attitude son to a Honky Tonk Attidue daughter, you'll get a lot of those genes that was passed on by Honky Tonk Attitude and, therefore, is much more likely to be in both brother and sister. So, when the brother and sister throw a litter, if only certain genes are availaable for the given trait, then the pups HAVE to come out with those traits. But, if you take the HTA son and breed it to an Elhew bitch there's not as much chance that they will have common genes in a given area so the pups won't come out as uniform. Half the pups will have the traits from the one parent and the other half will have the trait from the other parent. For example, HTA is known for throwing that head crank, where it looks like the dog's pointing a bird in a tree. Elhews don't really have any genetics that cause this. So, half the litter will have the head crank (HTA) and half won't (Elhew). But, breed an Elhew brother/sister and you'll have dogs that hold their head more similarly on point and a brother/sister HTA breeding would throw a whole log of head crank.

The more you outcross, the more diverse the gene pool. Consider if you had a cup of water with red die (Elhew) and another with blue die (HTA). Poor part of the red water and part of the blue water, in different proportions, into six empty cups and you'll come out with six cups of different shades, from really red to really blue. Genetically diversification. Now, take two cups with blue water (both HTA) and poor them, in different proportions, into the six empty cups, and you'll only have the same shade of blue in each of the six cups. Genetic uniformity. This is why you can tell a HTA pup by the head crank and Elhew by the conformation.

Hope that made sense, clear as Alabama mud.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue May 15, 2012 1:10 am

Stoneface wrote:Prepotency isn't always passed on, depending on how tight the genetics are. When you breed a brother to a sister they have like genetics and the pups will come out with like genetics. Gene's are made up of what's called an allele and there are multiple alleles at each locus, which, together, determine what will be visible when you look at the dog. For example, the allele for black coat would be B and for liver would be b. B is dominant over b, so if you have BB, bB or Bb, then the coat will be black or have some black. The only way to have liver to to have a bb.

So, when have a dog that is prepotent (it's usually a tightly-bred dog) they throw a lot of dominant genes for given traits. If you breed a Honky Tonk Attitude son to a Honky Tonk Attidue daughter, you'll get a lot of those genes that was passed on by Honky Tonk Attitude and, therefore, is much more likely to be in both brother and sister. So, when the brother and sister throw a litter, if only certain genes are availaable for the given trait, then the pups HAVE to come out with those traits. But, if you take the HTA son and breed it to an Elhew bitch there's not as much chance that they will have common genes in a given area so the pups won't come out as uniform. Half the pups will have the traits from the one parent and the other half will have the trait from the other parent. For example, HTA is known for throwing that head crank, where it looks like the dog's pointing a bird in a tree. Elhews don't really have any genetics that cause this. So, half the litter will have the head crank (HTA) and half won't (Elhew). But, breed an Elhew brother/sister and you'll have dogs that hold their head more similarly on point and a brother/sister HTA breeding would throw a whole log of head crank.

The more you outcross, the more diverse the gene pool. Consider if you had a cup of water with red die (Elhew) and another with blue die (HTA). Poor part of the red water and part of the blue water, in different proportions, into six empty cups and you'll come out with six cups of different shades, from really red to really blue. Genetically diversification. Now, take two cups with blue water (both HTA) and poor them, in different proportions, into the six empty cups, and you'll only have the same shade of blue in each of the six cups. Genetic uniformity. This is why you can tell a HTA pup by the head crank and Elhew by the conformation.

Hope that made sense, clear as Alabama mud.

Very well put. Many people believe they can get the stud of choice and any female and end up with a carbon copy of the stud. Stoneface do you know of any direct Dateline females out there? I am getting really interested in Mr Miller's breeding program. Any suggestions on how to find out more information? I now have a direct son and daughter of Millers ghost rider out of luci lu and three direct white powder son and daughters. If you or anyone else know of some direct Miller dogs for sale please PM me.
Thanks

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue May 15, 2012 1:26 am

I'm not a good reference for Miller dogs. I've honestly not had much to do with them. I've tried to study on Ferrell because of his substantial reputation, but can't find much on him besides a short segment with some of his dogs and him on YouTube. No website, no literature, no nothing. I imagine he still has his finger in a couple of cookie jars, though. You may get ahold of Randy Anderson, down in Vinita, Oklahoma - Crosscountry Kennels. I understand he has a lot of Miller dogs. In fact, he and Miller's Happy Jack were just brought up on another thread just ealier. Also you may get ahold of Chris (Topher40). He has a lot of white dogs, would imagine they're Miller.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue May 15, 2012 1:39 am

There's no date, but Andy posted this: http://www.gundogdirectory.com/listing.php?id=359

You may give this guy a call, also. He seems to be pretty up on the Miller stuff. http://whitelightningkennels.netkennel. ... 5&HDR=HOME

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue May 15, 2012 8:43 am

gotpointers wrote:
Very well put. Many people believe they can get the stud of choice and any female and end up with a carbon copy of the stud. Stoneface do you know of any direct Dateline females out there? I am getting really interested in Mr Miller's breeding program. Any suggestions on how to find out more information? I now have a direct son and daughter of Millers ghost rider out of luci lu and three direct white powder son and daughters. If you or anyone else know of some direct Miller dogs for sale please PM me.
Thanks

Why not go directly to the source for info?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue May 15, 2012 9:27 am

ACooper wrote:
gotpointers wrote:
Very well put. Many people believe they can get the stud of choice and any female and end up with a carbon copy of the stud. Stoneface do you know of any direct Dateline females out there? I am getting really interested in Mr Miller's breeding program. Any suggestions on how to find out more information? I now have a direct son and daughter of Millers ghost rider out of luci lu and three direct white powder son and daughters. If you or anyone else know of some direct Miller dogs for sale please PM me.
Thanks
Why not go directly to the source for info?

I would love to talk with Mr. Miller but I dont want to bother him out of respect. I was told he lost his wife last year and he is up in age. I would love to give him a call but I would only do so if someome who knows him well indicated it would be acceptable.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue May 15, 2012 12:59 pm

gotpointers wrote:
Stoneface wrote:
gotpointers wrote:I do not hesitate, if the dog has won the national (snowatch), or is a littermate to (prarieland) or a dog i really believe will win the national in the future (Caladens Rail Hawk)
I've never seen Rail Hawk work. What do you think of him? What makes you think he'll win the big one some day?
I will admit i am biased towards him, i own his grandmother and we are breeding Jack back to her. Also i have his half brother out of his dams full sister from their blackhawk breedings. But Jack has a very strong win record to date for his young age and is already Ames qualified. He also has shown a good placement in the purina points running.

I wonder if it has ever happend that a dog win the National and that was his first Championship. Could happen with this dog as I don't think he is a Champion. That would be interesting to find out if it has ever happend before.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue May 15, 2012 3:03 pm

gotpointers wrote:
ACooper wrote:
gotpointers wrote:
Very well put. Many people believe they can get the stud of choice and any female and end up with a carbon copy of the stud. Stoneface do you know of any direct Dateline females out there? I am getting really interested in Mr Miller's breeding program. Any suggestions on how to find out more information? I now have a direct son and daughter of Millers ghost rider out of luci lu and three direct white powder son and daughters. If you or anyone else know of some direct Miller dogs for sale please PM me.
Thanks
Why not go directly to the source for info?
I would love to talk with Mr. Miller but I dont want to bother him out of respect. I was told he lost his wife last year and he is up in age. I would love to give him a call but I would only do so if someome who knows him well indicated it would be acceptable.

That makes very good sense, however there are other "company" people who could probably point you in the direction of what you're looking for. Good luck!

Birddog3412 · Post by **Birddog3412** » Tue May 15, 2012 7:52 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:I wonder if it has ever happend that a dog win the National and that was his first Championship. Could happen with this dog as I don't think he is a Champion. That would be interesting to find out if it has ever happend before.

You are correct he has not won a championship but I would be willing to bet he will. I have seen him, very beautiful dog, hes one big muscle!!

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue May 15, 2012 9:04 pm

Has anyone seen Ross's Gargantuin dog? That dog is... gargantuin! He's a fricken beast.

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Tue May 15, 2012 10:14 pm

You know of any great studs from a father daughter breeding.

Stoneface wrote:Prepotency isn't always passed on, depending on how tight the genetics are. When you breed a brother to a sister they have like genetics and the pups will come out with like genetics. Gene's are made up of what's called an allele and there are multiple alleles at each locus, which, together, determine what will be visible when you look at the dog. For example, the allele for black coat would be B and for liver would be b. B is dominant over b, so if you have BB, bB or Bb, then the coat will be black or have some black. The only way to have liver to to have a bb.

So, when have a dog that is prepotent (it's usually a tightly-bred dog) they throw a lot of dominant genes for given traits. If you breed a Honky Tonk Attitude son to a Honky Tonk Attidue daughter, you'll get a lot of those genes that was passed on by Honky Tonk Attitude and, therefore, is much more likely to be in both brother and sister. So, when the brother and sister throw a litter, if only certain genes are availaable for the given trait, then the pups HAVE to come out with those traits. But, if you take the HTA son and breed it to an Elhew bitch there's not as much chance that they will have common genes in a given area so the pups won't come out as uniform. Half the pups will have the traits from the one parent and the other half will have the trait from the other parent. For example, HTA is known for throwing that head crank, where it looks like the dog's pointing a bird in a tree. Elhews don't really have any genetics that cause this. So, half the litter will have the head crank (HTA) and half won't (Elhew). But, breed an Elhew brother/sister and you'll have dogs that hold their head more similarly on point and a brother/sister HTA breeding would throw a whole log of head crank.

The more you outcross, the more diverse the gene pool. Consider if you had a cup of water with red die (Elhew) and another with blue die (HTA). Poor part of the red water and part of the blue water, in different proportions, into six empty cups and you'll come out with six cups of different shades, from really red to really blue. Genetically diversification. Now, take two cups with blue water (both HTA) and poor them, in different proportions, into the six empty cups, and you'll only have the same shade of blue in each of the six cups. Genetic uniformity. This is why you can tell a HTA pup by the head crank and Elhew by the conformation.

Hope that made sense, clear as Alabama mud.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue May 15, 2012 10:54 pm

No, not any specific names right off hand. If you have a copy of Wing and Shot handy you can go to the section where Wehle talks about starting a line of birddogs and he gives a short synopsis of how his foundation breedings laid out. He made several real tight breedings and I believe a few of them were father-daughter.

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Wed May 16, 2012 4:26 pm

Ya, never read that book or Wing and Shot. My understanding of doing a father X duaghter breeding is your locking in the fathers traits which will be more likely passed on to its off spring. I wounder if anyone will outcross to Connor's EZ Button then breed back a daughter.

Stoneface wrote:No, not any specific names right off hand. If you have a copy of Wing and Shot handy you can go to the section where Wehle talks about starting a line of birddogs and he gives a short synopsis of how his foundation breedings laid out. He made several real tight breedings and I believe a few of them were father-daughter.

WillowyndRanch · Post by **WillowyndRanch** » Thu May 24, 2012 4:20 am

We did - went back a couple decades frozen to a HOF dog named E.T. He's still the top producer of Duals and FC's in Vizsla History. That was good, but we still talked to quite a few people from back in the day who personally knew him and had pups and grand pups out of him before we pulled the trigger.

We were (and still are) very happy with the results. The get are settling into their broke dog work. Of the four pups - three wound in the top 15 Puppy/Derby points - we weren't trying for that, just worked out that way to get their Puppy/Derby points. Apparently that caught other's attention as since then I know of several folks who have gone back to him for frozen breeding.

One of his offspring is the girl (Scarlet) in my Avatar mooning up at me after a Sharptail hunt at our South Dakota camp.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu May 24, 2012 6:29 am

WillowyndRanch wrote:We did - went back a couple decades frozen to a HOF dog named E.T. He's still the top producer of Duals and FC's in Vizsla History. That was good, but we still talked to quite a few people from back in the day who personally knew him and had pups and grand pups out of him before we pulled the trigger.

We were (and still are) very happy with the results. The get are settling into their broke dog work. Of the four pups - three wound in the top 15 Puppy/Derby points - we weren't trying for that, just worked out that way to get their Puppy/Derby points. Apparently that caught other's attention as since then I know of several folks who have gone back to him for frozen breeding.

One of his offspring is the girl (Scarlet) in my Avatar mooning up at me after a Sharptail hunt at our South Dakota camp.

Sounds like some very nice dogs, welcome to GDF. I was wondering how old was the breeding unit and how old was the female? I am Just checking my odds for a decent size litter on an long gone stud and an old girl.