Define "honest"

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Scott Linden
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Define "honest"

Post by Scott Linden » Wed May 23, 2012 9:06 pm

Many have heard or read the term "honest dog," but what does it REALLY mean?
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Wildweeds » Wed May 23, 2012 9:13 pm

Honest to me is.................. they search,they find,they don't point till they have the scent worked out and have em nailed,once they have them nailed they do not move or even flinch,at the flush they remain motionless,if they are broke steady they do not faulter no matter how many contacts are had or how many birds are dropped...................basically they are DEAD broke and do not give any greif.Dogs that are dishonest are on the edge and can have the cooperate somedays and do it their way other days mode.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 23, 2012 9:31 pm

The above,

And stop to flush, stand through wild flush, even when the handler is put of sight. Will wait until you or someone else releases them.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Wildweeds » Wed May 23, 2012 9:57 pm

Great additions ultra............
ultracarry wrote:The above,

And stop to flush, stand through wild flush, even when the handler is put of sight. Will wait until you or someone else releases them.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by DonF » Wed May 23, 2012 10:21 pm

To me it was always a dog that just never false pointed.
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Wildweeds » Wed May 23, 2012 10:24 pm

Nothing more annoying than one that points mousefarts.........................
DonF wrote:To me it was always a dog that just never false pointed.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by prairiefirepointers » Thu May 24, 2012 4:21 am

Scott Linden wrote:Many have heard or read the term "honest dog," but what does it REALLY mean?
When you can get up off the sofa and leave your sandwich laying there and it will still be there when you return. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Grousewing » Thu May 24, 2012 4:24 am

I have been asked before is your dog honest on birds. It means he is steady on birds and bird work.
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Kmack » Thu May 24, 2012 5:27 am

Won't disregard what it's trained to do when it knows it could get away with it because nobody's around....

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by SHORTFAT » Thu May 24, 2012 6:40 am

Scott Linden wrote:Many have heard or read the term "honest dog," but what does it REALLY mean?
When you can get up off the sofa and leave your sandwich laying there and it will still be there when you return. :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]

LOL!!! Too funny!!! :mrgreen: +1
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by ultracarry » Thu May 24, 2012 7:18 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:
Scott Linden wrote:Many have heard or read the term "honest dog," but what does it REALLY mean?
When you can get up off the sofa and leave your sandwich laying there and it will still be there when you return. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I ask a lot of my dog but this will never happen.....

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by tommyboy72 » Thu May 24, 2012 7:51 am

DonF wrote:To me it was always a dog that just never false pointed.
+1

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu May 24, 2012 8:39 am

A dog that never takes a bird out when out of sight.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by RayGubernat » Thu May 24, 2012 8:52 am

To me a dog is "honest" if it finds a bird, points it and then waits until I get there to flush and shoot...no matter how long it takes for me to get there. In my view a dog is not truly honest unless it is "over the hill honest", which is to say the dog will find and hold the bird until you get there, even though the dog is completely out of your sight.

The dog could have a wonderful gait, fantastic ground application and look like a Robert Abbett print on point, but if it ain't honest on its birds...that is all for naught. That is especially true of dogs that are allowed to run and hunt independently, which very often means they are out of the handler's sight.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by DonF » Thu May 24, 2012 9:20 am

Ms. Cage wrote:A dog that never takes a bird out when out of sight.
How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?

By some standards set here my old Otis was as dishonest as they get. A lady staying here baked bread one day and Otis was seen leaving the house with a fresh loaf in his mouth. Then I got out of the pickup for one thing or another in Utah one time. I took my Subway sandwitch and pushed it back under the driver seat to save it. Yea right! Some how Otis got down there and found a way to move around enough to get it. When I got back in the truck, all that was left was part of the wrapper, not all the wrapper but part of it. I miss that guy! :cry:
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by ElhewPointer » Thu May 24, 2012 9:22 am

DonF wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:A dog that never takes a bird out when out of sight.
How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?:

When they come back to you with feathers in their mouth. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Chukar12 » Thu May 24, 2012 9:23 am

C.S. Lewis defined integrity as; "doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." to me that quote is synonymous with an honest dog. A dog that has accepted its training and role and is willing to maintain that level of discipline and trust with his/her handler and partner without regard to proximity and circumstance is an "honest dog."

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Chukar12 » Thu May 24, 2012 9:28 am

DonF wrote:How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?
feathers in the mouth is a good one...

slinking back mouth open panting with body language that screams ...ooops

birds in the air for no apparent reason and a dog returning from the vicinity

a dog running circles and pointing singles while flagging when they shouldn't be

c'mon Don ...with your experience you have dozens of more ways you could clue us in on that would give away an offending hounds ill intentions?

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu May 24, 2012 9:52 am

ElhewPointer wrote:DonF wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:
A dog that never takes a bird out when out of sight.
How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?:
Chukar12 wrote:feathers in the mouth is a good one...

slinking back mouth open panting with body language that screams ...ooops

birds in the air for no apparent reason and a dog returning from the vicinity

a dog running circles and pointing singles while flagging when they shouldn't be

c'mon Don ...with your experience you have dozens of more ways you could clue us in on that would give away an offending hounds ill intentions?
When they come back to you with feathers in their mouth.
Thanks !!!

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by ezzy333 » Thu May 24, 2012 10:31 am

Chukar12 wrote:C.S. Lewis defined integrity as; "doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." to me that quote is synonymous with an honest dog. A dog that has accepted its training and role and is willing to maintain that level of discipline and trust with his/her handler and partner without regard to proximity and circumstance is an "honest dog."
I think this comes closes to what the original meaning was as I remember. A dog you can trust to do what it is supposed to when you aren't there yet. I do think the term has been loosen up over time and some use it today to just say the dog is broke even if it is under your feet. Honest says it doesn't cheat!

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Sharon » Thu May 24, 2012 10:50 am

Chukar12 wrote:C.S. Lewis defined integrity as; "doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." to me that quote is synonymous with an honest dog. A dog that has accepted its training and role and is willing to maintain that level of discipline and trust with his/her handler and partner without regard to proximity and circumstance is an "honest dog."

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by mountaindogs » Thu May 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Agree. Consistant and reliable at whatever the training level is. Also you shouldnt have to hack them over the details.
Can a dog be honest on birds but NOT an honest retriever? Or is integrity in a dog an all round whole package?
For example, honest on point steady and will wait for ever and for anyone but munchy and hard mouthed always needing correction on the retrieve...

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by ElhewPointer » Thu May 24, 2012 1:40 pm

Sharon wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:C.S. Lewis defined integrity as; "doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." to me that quote is synonymous with an honest dog. A dog that has accepted its training and role and is willing to maintain that level of discipline and trust with his/her handler and partner without regard to proximity and circumstance is an "honest dog."

x2 well said
x3- I might add something to that. Also doing the right thing infront of you. I know it sounds silly, but there is nothing that bothers me more at a trial or judging than hearing the handler say WHOA while riding up to and walking in front of a dog. An honest dog doesn't need that.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by SHNOOL » Thu May 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Ray's spot on (again)... Over the Hill Honest (I like that)...

Ok, here's a scenario, of a "friends dog." Field trial, one of the dogs first few times out. Dog has a point, a find, a stop to flush, then gets out of sight... Handler error (it happens)...
Get away from the last sight of the dog for more about 10 minutes... they pull the tracker.
30 seconds later (GPS acquires the dog - standing) they are on their way to find "said dog."
When found the dog is standing (back near last seen - "bleep" scouts)... She's on point, bird is there. Flush, and "GOOD DOG!" They call it a day, scout gets chastised (bad scout for missing a good dog)!

OK, get home, all happy... dog did well, even though it didn't get around. The garmin is pulled out, the collar too, they download the tracks from the collar. The time the dog was missing, until it was standing was about 8 minutes. For 7 minutes (presumably until said dog HEARD the handler/scout coming), the dog was RUNNING in the woods in a 100 yard area, stopping and bounding, and running again.

MORAL of the story.. The dog was chasing birds IN THE WOODS while everyone visually thought the dog was good. The handler apologized to the scout, and the trainer got an earful. The trainer would not have believed the story without the evidence to prove otherwise. That was an honest dog to some... but it wasn't "Over the Hill Honest." Thanks Ray!
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by RayGubernat » Thu May 24, 2012 2:15 pm

Guys -

DonF's story about Otis reminded me of my first dog, Jack.

Now THIS was an honest dog. Here is the story and as God is my witness it is absolutely true:

It was a typical Sunday. Mom was making a roast beef in the downstairs(basement) oven(all the Italians I know have two kitchens). Jack was lying on his bed in the basement as he normally did. Mom went downstairs, shut off the oven and pulled the roast out to cool and let. She got a phone call and then she realized that she had forgotten something so she rushed off to the store.

When she came back about a half hour later she asked: : "Did anyone bring up the roast?" In her haste she had forgotten to tell my Dad or I to bring it up. I flew downstairs fearing the worst. After all Jack was my dog and no matter what, it was going to be my fault.

When I did not see him lying on his bed at the foot of the steps I knew I was in it up to my neck. I rounded the corner into the downstairs kitchen and there was Jack, sitting with his nose about two inches from the roast beef. His eyes were RIVETED on that roast and the drool was dripping from his jowls. There was a puddle of saliva on the floor, where the dog was sitting that was the size of a small throw rug, but not a toothmark was to be found in the roast. I took the roast off the rack, carried it upstairs, with Jack following me every step of the way. He stopped at the entrance to the kitchen as he was not "allowed" in the main house. I put the roast on the cutting board, carved off an end slice and carried it downstairs and hand fed it to him. Mom did not say a word.

Jack was an honest dog.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Chukar12 » Thu May 24, 2012 2:25 pm

mountaindogs wrote:Can a dog be honest on birds but NOT an honest retriever? Or is integrity in a dog an all round whole package?
For example, honest on point steady and will wait for ever and for anyone but munchy and hard mouthed always needing correction on the retrieve...
I think most would say that it includes what you have trained for...if the retrieve is part of that and the dog doesnt execute, the definition falls apart


THE DOG DIDNT EAT ROAST BEEF! What kind of dog was Jack?
...and be honest, have you had just a little CHIANTI before this story ? :D

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by cmc274 » Thu May 24, 2012 2:59 pm

I enjoyed Ray's story, but I like to differentiate between honest bird dog and honest house dog. We've been on the wrong side of both. My male once used the cover of tennessee fog to double back and repoint a bird- a fine example of an intelligent and dishonest dog (only did it once, so I hate give him that title). I agree with the over the hill description. In the house, our record is slightly flawed- pork loin, cheese, grapes, Super Bowl snacks, cupcakes, caprese salad, etc (most of these involve visiting family and friends, but not an excuse for not maintaining the same vigilance we do at home).

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Oscar » Thu May 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Scott Linden wrote:Many have heard or read the term "honest dog," but what does it REALLY mean?
Is said mostly of AA dogs and is a dog who finds birds while lost of sight and wait until your reach and flush the birds.
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by RayGubernat » Thu May 24, 2012 4:17 pm

Chuckar -

Jack was a dropper, mostly with a little shorthair thrown in to the mix for good measure. He was my very first dog. I never said he didn't eat roast beef...just not Momma's. He knew what was good for his health and what was not. If it was headed toward his dish...watch for your fingers.

He was an absolute character and my best bud for a lot of years. If I told you some of the things he did, you'd think I was hitting the sauce for sure, or just an incredible BS'er. I will just say this...it has been forty years and I still think of him and still miss him.

For what it is worth, he was pretty honest in the field too. Not perfect, by any means, but we were a team and he would wait for me to get there with the gun. Now if I missed...that was a whole 'nuther sitcheashun.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by DonF » Thu May 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
DonF wrote:How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?
feathers in the mouth is a good one...

slinking back mouth open panting with body language that screams ...ooops

birds in the air for no apparent reason and a dog returning from the vicinity

a dog running circles and pointing singles while flagging when they shouldn't be

c'mon Don ...with your experience you have dozens of more ways you could clue us in on that would give away an offending hounds ill intentions?
Tes I do but I only know what I see. Whatever happened out of sight, you did not see. You can of course guess at what happened but that doesn't mean it did. A dog coming back with feather's in it's mouth could be from a feather pile, not like dogs don't investigate them. Dog running with a bird in the air, let me tell you about a dog last weekend. The dog was no where near the find but the bird flushed out, flew a couple hundred yards away and over the head of another dog. The other dog did chase and when the bird came down, he pointed it. Don't try to guess at what you don't see.

Another time at a trial I was judging an ama gun dog with another friend. We were in the bird field and this Britt start's making game for all it's worth, never establish's point. The bird flushed out and the dog immediately stoped to flush. Did the dog take it out? Probably but we have no idea what it smelled down there and the dog stopped to flush immediately. The dog may just have a crappy nose! What we saw was a dog trying to find a bird that pushed the bird but stopped immediately, what's your call? I had to explain keeping the gunner in the field to my fellow judge. I told him just what I told you but a bit more. The dog was in no way going to get a placement and there wasn't a doubt in our minds that if the dog got on another bird, it would not stand to kill. handled the next find very very well right up to the kill, oop's! Dog always get's the benifit of doubt. I only know what I see.
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by DonF » Thu May 24, 2012 4:21 pm

Aw h*ll Ray, Jack is great! :mrgreen:
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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Chukar12 » Thu May 24, 2012 4:32 pm

,,,I sure would have liked to have known Jack, great story.

DonF wrote:Another time at a trial I was judging an ama gun dog with another friend. We were in the bird field and this Britt start's making game for all it's worth, never establish's point. The bird flushed out and the dog immediately stoped to flush. Did the dog take it out? Probably but we have no idea what it smelled down there and the dog stopped to flush immediately. The dog may just have a crappy nose! What we saw was a dog trying to find a bird that pushed the bird but stopped immediately, what's your call? I had to explain keeping the gunner in the field to my fellow judge. I told him just what I told you but a bit more. The dog was in no way going to get a placement and there wasn't a doubt in our minds that if the dog got on another bird, it would not stand to kill. handled the next find very very well right up to the kill, oop's! Dog always get's the benifit of doubt. I only know what I see.
Chukar12 wrote:
DonF wrote:How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?
feathers in the mouth is a good one...

slinking back mouth open panting with body language that screams ...ooops

birds in the air for no apparent reason and a dog returning from the vicinity

a dog running circles and pointing singles while flagging when they shouldn't be

c'mon Don ...with your experience you have dozens of more ways you could clue us in on that would give away an offending hounds ill intentions?
Tes I do but I only know what I see. Whatever happened out of sight, you did not see. You can of course guess at what happened but that doesn't mean it did. A dog coming back with feather's in it's mouth could be from a feather pile, not like dogs don't investigate them. Dog running with a bird in the air, let me tell you about a dog last weekend. The dog was no where near the find but the bird flushed out, flew a couple hundred yards away and over the head of another dog. The other dog did chase and when the bird came down, he pointed it. Don't try to guess at what you don't see.

Another time at a trial I was judging an ama gun dog with another friend. We were in the bird field and this Britt start's making game for all it's worth, never establish's point. The bird flushed out and the dog immediately stoped to flush. Did the dog take it out? Probably but we have no idea what it smelled down there and the dog stopped to flush immediately. The dog may just have a crappy nose! What we saw was a dog trying to find a bird that pushed the bird but stopped immediately, what's your call? I had to explain keeping the gunner in the field to my fellow judge. I told him just what I told you but a bit more. The dog was in no way going to get a placement and there wasn't a doubt in our minds that if the dog got on another bird, it would not stand to kill. handled the next find very very well right up to the kill, oop's! Dog always get's the benifit of doubt. I only know what I see.
I am with you all the way Don. I would not judge in a trial what i couldn't see and I wouldn't suppose I knew what happened...but i wasn't following the thread like that. My thought was as a trainer, I know when Rex is up to no good, because I should and better know Rex...and when he is dishonest, I am going to create something so I will know of his digressions and can fix the problem. Unless Rex outsmarts me on that front as well which happens more than I can ever possibly admit I am sure.

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Re: Define "honest"

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu May 24, 2012 6:39 pm

True you can not judge what you don't see in a trial or test. If your out hunting, one dog on the ground and behaviors happen as described below I think you can pretty much assume the dog is being dishonest around game.
Chukar12 wrote:Chukar12 wrote:
DonF wrote:
How would you know that a dog took out a bird when it is out of sight?

feathers in the mouth is a good one...

slinking back mouth open panting with body language that screams ...ooops

birds in the air for no apparent reason and a dog returning from the vicinity

a dog running circles and pointing singles while flagging when they shouldn't be

c'mon Don ...with your experience you have dozens of more ways you could clue us in on that would give away an offending hounds ill intentions?

Tes I do

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