GSP pup growling when with wing

[dac]

I got my pheasant wings I ordered in the mail today. I introduced the pup(10 weeks old) to one and after a couple minutes of being unsure of it and barking at it he finally picked it up. I got it back from him and hid him to it. here is where the problem started. when I attempted to get the wing from him he growled aggressively at me.when I finally got it from him we attempted again and had the same result. the only way we have found to get the wing away from him with no growling is to give him a treat so he lets go. we need advice as to what to do to stop the aggression with the wing, our last dog did no such thing so we're not sure what to do.

[terrylndrs]

I would stop letting him catch it and dont give him treats. by doing that you are rewarding him for something you don't want .

[Chukar12]

I wouldn't give him a pheasant wing to be posessive over. It is probably ok to play the wing on a string game briefly a few times but your young poiting dog doesn't need to gnaw on or search out dead wings. The bigger problem is the indication that it could get aggressive over what he has decided is his. Remove feathers from the equation and start making the little heathen understand that things belong to you and you will provide and remove as you see fit. Be firm early and often and remove anything birdy from the equation until you have that squared away. I would also suggest training aids in the form of videos from Huntsmith Perfection or Hickox

[Carolina Gundogs]

I agree with Chuckar12. The DVDs he listed are all great.

I would also recommend the book, Training With Mo. It is my favorite training guide and very easy to read and put into action. Very simple, effective, soft handed techniques developed by Maurice Lindley.

VERY GOOD TRANINIG MANUAL.

[Chukar12]

Yes I sure do agree and I wish I hadn't omitted that. His mastery of that method and touch with dogs is living legend stuff...

[fuzznut]

agree with all advice above. I would also begin to take things away from him... toys, his dinner etc. Should he growl or make a grab for it or you, I would calmly take him by the scruff of his neck and lift him quickly into the air and just let him dangle there for a moment or two. That takes his feet and teeth right away from him! Or you could take your hand, put it around the side of his neck and pin him to the ground. Don't let him up till he gives up and relaxes. Then gently release him and walk away with the object. No hitting, yelling or anything else.

You see, everything is indeed YOURS! He has them because you were a nice enough guy to allow him to have it, but you have the power to simply take it away.
If more people would teach their puppies this stuff when they are little guys.... we wouldn't have so many dogs that bite people!
Fuzz

[JIM K]

sadly dogs BITE.seen it for years.

i agree, take wing away.i had one of my pups get me badly on my arm.i gave him RAW MEAT BONE. never again.he got me real good. to this day i dont give meat bones raw to my dogs.
but i feel its temperment of dog that causes it.
its in the dog.
only thing you can do is remove what sets the puppy off.

[SetterNut]

I also reccommend "Training with Mo"

Get it and read it. I think you will have a better understanding of what to do and why then.

[fuzznut]

JimK- not to be nasty or rude, but I don't care if I give my dog the whole bloody cow, he better let me take it when I ask. He might not like it much, but them's the breaks! Once I've made my point with a dog, I don't overdo it.... but if they ever give me a hard time about giving something up... it's back to school we go.

It's kind of a shame that your dogs can't have a good meaty bone... just teach them to back away when asked to.
Fuzz

[mcbosco]

agree with all advice above. I would also begin to take things away from him... toys, his dinner etc. Should he growl or make a grab for it or you, I would calmly take him by the scruff of his neck and lift him quickly into the air and just let him dangle there for a moment or two. That takes his feet and teeth right away from him! Or you could take your hand, put it around the side of his neck and pin him to the ground. Don't let him up till he gives up and relaxes. Then gently release him and walk away with the object. No hitting, yelling or anything else.

You see, everything is indeed YOURS! He has them because you were a nice enough guy to allow him to have it, but you have the power to simply take it away.
If more people would teach their puppies this stuff when they are little guys.... we wouldn't have so many dogs that bite people!
Fuzz

Dante, the above is great advice. There is a tug of war going on in that pups mind about who is boss. Think about every interaction you have with that pup and change the process to where he is made to be submissive, or placed in a position to wait for something, like the food bowl. Unless he sitting like an angel don't feed him.

If he growls the above is perfect. Giving the treat just rewarded him for doing something bad. This is something that Milan teaches on almost every episode, cheesy I know but he does a good job explaining it and what is going in the dogs head.

If the pup has been sleeping with you, end that. How is the pup on the leash?

[ezzy333]

Lets not go over board here. He is a pup and just needs to find who is boss. There is no need to stop any and all times he can spend with you but just don't put up with the growling at you if he is serious about it. And get rid of the wings. Sorry no one had explained that before you spent the money. But now that you have them and you know how he reacts they would be the perfect tool for you to teach him who they belong to. I have never been a believer that you should never set a pup up to fail and this would be a good example. Use the wings for this training and then throw them away. Or even better find something else he is possesive of and use them in the training and then you can use a wing to see if he recieved and understands who is the master.

Ezzy

[JIM K]

JimK- not to be nasty or rude, but I don't care if I give my dog the whole bloody cow, he better let me take it when I ask. He might not like it much, but them's the breaks! Once I've made my point with a dog, I don't overdo it.... but if they ever give me a hard time about giving something up... it's back to school we go.

It's kind of a shame that your dogs can't have a good meaty bone... just teach them to back away when asked to.
Fuzz

it is SHAME.

[JIM K]

Lets not go over board here. He is a pup and just needs to find who is boss. There is no need to stop any and all times he can spend with you but just don't put up with the growling at you if he is serious about it. And get rid of the wings. Sorry no one had explained that before you spent the money. But now that you have them and you know how he reacts they would be the perfect tool for you to teach him who they belong to. I have never been a believer that you should never set a pup up to fail and this would be a good example. Use the wings for this training and then throw them away. Or even better find something else he is possesive of and use them in the training and then you can use a wing to see if he recieved and understands who is the master.

Ezzy

you are right,he is pup.so was one of mine.

[Ruffshooter]

JimK- not to be nasty or rude, but I don't care if I give my dog the whole bloody cow, he better let me take it when I ask. He might not like it much, but them's the breaks! Once I've made my point with a dog, I don't overdo it.... but if they ever give me a hard time about giving something up... it's back to school we go.

It's kind of a shame that your dogs can't have a good meaty bone... just teach them to back away when asked to.
Fuzz

+1= +1
One should be able to take a raw steak from the dog or puppy with no issue. It is yours not theirs. You just can't allow the behaviour.

Not sure how this got so big. Maybe it is just on my screen.

[ultracarry]

I may be wrong in how I approached this with mine but.... She was the lowest thing in the house... I would hold her when I opens the door and let her go out only after I did, she entered last, ate last, and never slept on my bed. From the day I got her I put my hands in her food bowl and took the bowl.away... Gave a command and when obeyed she got to eat again.... I have been bit by her when she was playing with a toy by my side. Accident yes, reaction? Ohh yea.

The dog knows me... If I say "drop it" it gets dropped. If she doesnt I get to reinforce what she knows. They will always test you.and see if they can get away with things. If I get a growl, even by a small dog ill end it fast and without and thought.

No wings, obedience, teach it how to take food nice (expect to get bit and bite back), and always stay above the dog on the hierarchy...

[alabcalledmaverick]

Is it recomended to use these tactics on an 8/9 week old pup too?

[mcbosco]

Is it recomended to use these tactics on an 8/9 week old pup too?

Yes, the pup's mom, if with the litter long enough, did much worse. What was described by Ultra is just good practice. It can be done as a process in a very gentle manner. You can simulate the mom's bite to the neck with your finger and they really understand that.

I never allowed my children to play with the dog on the floor. He never ate unless he sat quietly for several minutes and gave both paws on command.

Mine is too big to be unruly. They are very docile by nature by who wants a 90lb dog jumping on a person, especially a kid or senior citizen.

I can put a bowl of green tripe out and he won't even get up until I say "eat".

[Sharon]

Lets not go over board here. He is a pup and just needs to find who is boss. There is no need to stop any and all times he can spend with you but just don't put up with the growling at you if he is serious about it. And get rid of the wings. Sorry no one had explained that before you spent the money. But now that you have them and you know how he reacts they would be the perfect tool for you to teach him who they belong to. I have never been a believer that you should never set a pup up to fail and this would be a good example. Use the wings for this training and then throw them away. Or even better find something else he is possesive of and use them in the training and then you can use a wing to see if he recieved and understands who is the master.

Ezzy

Good post!
My 3 dogs have been taught that I go up and down the stairs first and out the door first. Not only for safety's sake but to review who's the head honcho here.

[fuzznut]

no one said you had to go nuts on the puppy, you can correct with all those methods gently and still leave no doubt left in his puppy mind that you mean business.

I've always been taught to give corrections only as strongly as they are needed to get the behavior you are looking for. Some dogs only need a slightly raised voice to make them stop/comply, others need a more hands on approach. The punishment fits the crime sort of thing.

In my breed, they simply cannot get away with trying to be the boss! Too many owners think it's kind of cute when little puppies pull that stuff- they don't find it so cute when they are 10 mos old, weigh 50 lbs and have sunk their teeth into their hand! Had that cute little puppy learned NO right from the git go..... all would be much happier!

Fuzz

[JIM K]

no one said you had to go nuts on the puppy, you can correct with all those methods gently and still leave no doubt left in his puppy mind that you mean business.

I've always been taught to give corrections only as strongly as they are needed to get the behavior you are looking for. Some dogs only need a slightly raised voice to make them stop/comply, others need a more hands on approach. The punishment fits the crime sort of thing.

In my breed, they simply cannot get away with trying to be the boss! Too many owners think it's kind of cute when little puppies pull that stuff- they don't find it so cute when they are 10 mos old, weigh 50 lbs and have sunk their teeth into their hand! Had that cute little puppy learned NO right from the git go..... all would be much happier!

Fuzz

my hands and arms have scars to prove that.any dog that bites again i will never own.this is why it is so important to see mother/father of litter.

most of biters i have seen wee FEAR BITERS .i have yet to see one that can be corrected and left around people.

[ezzy333]

I have never seen a corralation between a puppy biting and a dog biting. And fear biters sure don't bie you on the arms unless you are the aggresser. Puppy biting is normally a form of play but if it is allowed to grow with the pup it might become a problem so that is the reason to stop it while they are little and it is easy to control. If a puppy bites out of fear it is normally just a lack of socialization.

This is the way it appears to me and I have been around a few biters and fear biters but still don't have a sign to show for it on my arms or any place else for that matter. If that happens I am goinbg to stop and figure out what I am doing wrong.

Ezzy

[trasmuson3]

How do you prevent fear biting?

[ezzy333]

Not saying it will always work but I try to put the dog in that fearful position as much as possible and let it learn there is nothing to fear. Has worked on many is all I can say.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

How do you prevent fear biting?

There is a specific time period where a puppy is open to socialization exercises. If this time period is missed , you have an uphill battle ahead.
I often watched a GSP in a pet store window,. It went from window to crate, and crate to window x 100. It had been shipped here by train from Missouri at 5 weeks in a crate with her siblings.I felt very sorry for it . She had never seen the out of doors. Yes i bought her. She had AKC registration but............................. No I didn't want to support the pet store but .............. She was just fine with me but would cower and try to bite anyone else. The liability grew until i put her down at 3 . She had missed that critical socialization time , and I couldn't make it up.BUT she had 3 great years running in the fields etc. I have no regrets but it is not something I would recommend.

[JIM K]

How do you prevent fear biting?

There is a specific time period where a puppy is open to socialization exercises. If this time period is missed , you have an uphill battle ahead.
I often watched a GSP in a pet store window,. It went from window to crate, and crate to window x 100. It had been shipped here by train from Missouri at 5 weeks in a crate with her siblings.I felt very sorry for it . She had never seen the out of doors. Yes i bought her. She had AKC registration but............................. No I didn't want to support the pet store but .............. She was just fine with me but would cower and try to bite anyone else. The liability grew until i put her down at 3 . She had missed that critical socialization time , and I couldn't make it up.BUT she had 3 great years running in the fields etc. I have no regrets but it is not something I would recommend.

hardest part is putting dog down.

[Cajun Casey]

Wow. Give a young puppy of a high energy, very vocal breed a high value novel object and now we have flooding and dog killing. FWIW, I let the older dogs handle resource guarding and I train manners with treats or resource removal. Good luck with your puppy, BTW.

[dac]

thank you all for your advice. I will be changing some of what we do and he wont be getting the pheasant wing again, at least not for a while.

[Ruffshooter]

Dac: Hopefully you understand some of this information posted. Some is very good advice. Some needs to be disregarded.

Bottom line most of what needs to happen is the dog needs to understand its place no matter what place he thinks he deserves. He is always last on the totem pole. The information that is correct in my opinion is that in which you are in full control. That in which you condition the dogs behavior to fit. You not letting the dog bite. You not letting the dog be possessive. You not letting the kids in the family allowing the dog to get away with stuff. Don't be intimidated by the pup. Give correction and do not feel bad about it. The sooner you get his mind right the sooner you will have fun and he will understand his role and place in the family.

On a side note. The pheasant wing is no of any use other than maybe tying to a bumper for retrieving drills. Or to use as a training aid in your work to change the dogs possessiveness.

[cohanzick creek]

I totally agree with ruffshooter and fuzz. You ought to be able to give your dog a bone without having your fingers bit. The pup needs to know what it can get away with and what it can't. Its not at the stage where you need to beat the heck out of it or put the pup down, just let the pup know who is the boss.

cc

[deke]

This is all very good information Dac. The biggest thing i have found with teaching a dog who is the boss is to flip them over onto their backs, you are putting them into a submissive posistion.

[Chukar12]

This is all very good information Dac. The biggest thing i have found with teaching a dog who is the boss is to flip them over onto their backs, you are putting them into a submissive posistion.

I realize this subject is getting tired but let's be sure that we clarify information here. The phrase flipping a dog on its back is a method described and brought to the limelight in a book by the New Skete Monks. It is an age old practice employed by canines and copied by humans who are intending to simulate an "Alpha Roll." It is a severe form of behavioral modofication and you better be good with your timing and know how to employ it with an agressive older dog or you risk getting bit and losing a battle which can lose you a dog. With a puppy as described here, I will stop short of saying a true alpha roll has no place BUT it doesn't appear to warrant that yet. A true alpha roll, putting a pup on its back and exposing its belly can have an everlasting effect on confidence and trust. The first step should be putting the puppy on its side and stroking it until it lays calmly. You can restrain it, and he must relax and be willing to lie there, no matter how long it takes.

I am not suggesting that people haven't made an alpha roll work for them in whatever form they choose to employ it at whatever stage; but there is a risk with puppies/young dogs and our corrections should fit the severity of the behavior. If the behavioral problem is extremely severe, one should find a competent professional for specific advice where they can view the behavior and help you change it. I have trained dozens of dogs in my life; from house dogs, big game hounds, messed with aussies and the livestock, a flushing dog or two and a handful of pointing dogs. However, my experience with dogs pales by the experience of most professional trainers if in no other measurement than that of sheer numbers. That is why we must be cautious in taking advice from the internet that is unsupported by proven experience and credentials...if it works for someone 9 times out of 10 and their advice to you isn't understood or you are the number 10 exception....well that sucks.

[fuzznut]

I'll totally agree with Chuckar! The Alpha roll has it's place, but one should know how and why to use it...
just go slow with this pup, make your point and don't over do it! We don't want anyones dog to be afraid of them or to cower away... they just have to have rules. No teeth is one of them and a pretty easy one to fix... if you take the time to fix it.

Now if he was 2 yrs old and pulled that stunt... stand back- game on!
Fuzz

[cohanzick creek]

Here are three of my wires, a six year old, four month old, and 10 week old. With a little bit of work and patience you can get them to get along. Also, give and take without getting your fingers taken off. Don't give up on your little guy, with a little it of work he will be a good hunting dog and companion. Good luck with your pup.

cc

[JIM K]

I'll totally agree with Chuckar! The Alpha roll has it's place, but one should know how and why to use it...
just go slow with this pup, make your point and don't over do it! We don't want anyones dog to be afraid of them or to cower away... they just have to have rules. No teeth is one of them and a pretty easy one to fix... if you take the time to fix it.

Now if he was 2 yrs old and pulled that stunt... stand back- game on!
Fuzz

my friend was local dog warden. very experienced .
he had dog that bit.
he said, GAME ON at 2 yrs old and took dog to basement.

YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE NEXT DAY.
boy, he was bit badly.

here is what he said, HE WONT DO THAT AGAIN. :roll: