Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

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Stoneface
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Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Stoneface » Tue May 29, 2012 3:05 pm

From what you've seen, is the interaction in birddog and/or trials up or down (overall and in your area)?

I've gone to trials with eight braces in a stake and the old timers say they used to have gobs of dogs entered, not like now. Then there's the breeders who say they can't give away pups. There was one guy at a trial that said he bred his well-bred female, bred her with a big-name national champion (can't remember who it was) and was going on about how he had the pups advertised for almost nothing from Iowa to Texas and he couldn't get rid of them and even after he offered them for free he finally got homes for them as pets. Kind of a scary thought to think birddogs are dying out. To hear some people talk birddogs will be as popular in America as Foxhounds are.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by cstokes/southeast,ks » Tue May 29, 2012 3:24 pm

Does this not go hand in hand with wild bird population? Cant speak on the trialing side of things.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by orbirdhunter » Tue May 29, 2012 3:27 pm

Well. I think that in a down economy its tougher to sell pups from the more popular breeds. The supply seems to be just about higher then demand foe gsp,ep,britts.....
I know that our clubs field trials are always extremely busy...its akc and we are running 3 courses all day for two or three days...well over 100 dogs entered
Now, our spring hunt test was not worth putting on, ten or twelve dogs each day i think. Done before lunch.

I have also noticed at least locally that their are almost no field trial participants under 30...actually under 40. If i get a horse lined up for this next year i will easily be the young kid at 31. That does not bode well for the sport in the future.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue May 29, 2012 5:20 pm

For less than the cost of one weekend trial, I can get Obedience classes for two months, inside with a bathroom and a soda machine. I have over twenty thousand free acres to run them in my schedule. I pay to play the trial game, but it is not a high priority in my dog activities.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ibbowhunting » Tue May 29, 2012 5:51 pm

I think most outdoor sports are on the decline, that i why we need to introduce kids to the outdoors you know they will love it, its just they never tryed it when i was young, thanks to my dad i got to hunt, fish and trap most young kids these day sit in front of the tv, computer or video games, because in my op most familys both parents work full time to make a good living leaving little time to take the kids outdoors, just my op. i'm only 31 and to alot of you i'm just a kid and what do i know. :D

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue May 29, 2012 6:33 pm

So far, gamebirds outnumber foxes....overall.
Fret not.

Might be a question...are FTers breeding too many dogs in looking for that one where lightning strikes....and caring too little about xtra tails?
I prefer ex-FT dogs for a hunter...just glad FTers are around.
The economy tho, can't be a plus in selling dogs or overhead.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by fuzznut » Tue May 29, 2012 6:45 pm

akc trial participation/entries is up so far for 2012. I forget the actual percentage.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by sckwest1 » Tue May 29, 2012 7:14 pm

For a walking stake or even a horseback stake what is the difference between an AKC trial and an NBHA of AF trial? Thanks, SCK

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by cjhills » Tue May 29, 2012 7:43 pm

The Hunt test numbers in Minnesota are way down. I think due to the economy , we don't have trainers bringing eight or ten dogs. We used to start in mid April and go 'til mid June every weekend but easter. This year four or five weekends and one or two of them will probably drop for next year. Mostly junior dogs. Some tests had 2 or 3 masters braces and no senior.
As far as dog sales go we have no problem selling companion/hunting dogs. My trainer friend has a 60 person waiting list and we normally have ten or more on our list. These puppies go from $800 to $1200 dollars. Most of these people want a natural bird dog they can train themselves. They also what a nice family dog. About half spend three to for thousand with a trainer.
Even with the bird numbers way off in South Dakota license sales were not down substanually
It is very difficult to sell the unwanted puppies out of a litter bred to produce top trial dog or two. Which will be trained by a pro. I don't really understand what the goal is for having a field champion. They are way to powerful for the average weekender. When they take out retrieving they are taking another step in the wrong direction as far as a dog for a family goes. So you limit yourself to trialers and they don't want the left overs after the breeder has picked what he thinks is the top pups. It is a big stretch from a weekend bird dog to a horseback trial dog. Both mentally and financially. Especially for a man with a family.
I would like to see more young people in the field and upland bird hunting is the best hunting sport for a family because all can participate and usually there is a lot of action. Kids lose interrest in a deer stand pretty quick. I do too. CJ

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Kmack » Tue May 29, 2012 8:32 pm

I think gas prices have as much to do with the decline as bird numbers.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by slistoe » Wed May 30, 2012 5:15 am

sckwest1 wrote:For a walking stake or even a horseback stake what is the difference between an AKC trial and an NBHA of AF trial? Thanks, SCK
The people participating.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by fuzznut » Wed May 30, 2012 6:15 am

I don't really understand what the goal is for having a field champion. They are way to powerful for the average weekender
Sorry in advance for taking this a bit off track of the original question... but I really have a tough time understanding the above. Looking at your web site it appears you have been using some pretty successful trial dogs and genetics in your breeding program. Why is it people are willing to use the "high powered dogs" and then knock them in the next breath for being "way too powerful". You use the genetics, then beat the people up that gave you the opportunity to tap into the talent.

What is the difference between all the different venues? Rules, registry, the mentality of the people... but they are all looking for a good bird dog in the end. Some are walking events, some are horseback, some put emphasis on bird work, some on retrieve, etc., etc.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed May 30, 2012 7:33 am

ibbowhunting wrote:I think most outdoor sports are on the decline
I concur. I just had this conversation with my buddies at the gun shop the other day. They are all members to the gun club where I regularly shoot skeet at. I am relatively new there and I was asking where all the younger shooters are???? I am 33 and by FAR the youngest person out there. I shoot with guys who are 50-70+. They said that over the past 3-5 years it has been a steady decline and that the numbers used to be far greater...

It all comes down to money... 3-5 years ago the economy was going strong. People aren't thinking about spending money recreationally when they are sweating over how they're going to put food on the table, pay the mortgage/rent, or buy the kids a new pair of shoes. At least not if they have their priorities straight.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 30, 2012 8:22 am

[quote="cjhills" ] Which will be trained by a pro. I don't really understand what the goal is for having a field champion. They are way to powerful for the average weekender. When they take out retrieving they are taking another step in the wrong direction as far as a dog for a family goes. So you limit yourself to trialers and they don't want the left overs after the breeder has picked what he thinks is the top pups. It is a big stretch from a weekend bird dog to a horseback trial dog. Both mentally and financially. Especially for a man with a family.
I would like to see more young people in the field and upland bird hunting is the best hunting sport for a family because all can participate and usually there is a lot of action. Kids lose interrest in a deer stand pretty quick. I do too. CJ[/quote]

Field champion too powerful for the average weekender? You must not own one..... Wow. I think you are way under estimating the bidability your dog has to have without an ecollar in competition.

When you talk about retrieving and AKC you have not read the requirements for a FC or AFC... Retrieving points are a must. I believe I have over 10 retrieving points on my dog alone, love to retrieve birds. I think a lot of.people would rather run in a retrieving stake because they like to reward the dog...

Maybe if the OP and you participated more in field trials there wouldn't be a big misunderstanding when talking about them. Stoneface has competed in field trials with disregard to the rules, in juvenile stakes. Playing the "I wasn't a pro a few months ago card". When clearly on his website he paints a clear picture of an expert dog handler, whisper, and trainer with many years under his belt.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Karen » Wed May 30, 2012 8:44 am

In our area (we trial in NJ, NY, PA, CT, MD, DE), I saw a fall-off in broke dog entries this past season and last fall at many trials. Where entires were 25-30 dogs in the past, this season they were 16-20 dogs. There does seem to be a larger entry in puppy and derby though. Maybe we're seeing the up-swing? More dogs out being broke (so less entries right now), but more pups entered?

We've sold 2 litters in the last year....5 pups the first time, 6 this time. I had deposits on every available puppy by the time they were a week old.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Stoneface » Wed May 30, 2012 8:45 am

sckwest1 wrote:For a walking stake or even a horseback stake what is the difference between an AKC trial and an NBHA of AF trial? Thanks, SCK
Scott, I don't think I'm the best one to answer this question, but I hate it when I ask a direct question and no one answer, so I'll do my best and if I make a mistake I'm sure someone will correct me.

The three main venues are AKC, AF and NSTRA. You also have the speed trials like BDC, but you asked about these, so I'll stick to them.

NSTRA is recognized by UKC now and are ran in braces on typically 40-acre fields. A dog and handler take the field dor a given about time and the judges give a score on things like finds, retrieves, a back, ground coverage, obedience. This is more of the typical meat hunter's game. It's all about how efficient the dog/handler are at putting birds in the bag.

AF governs the FDSB and recognizes titles and wins issued by NBHA, ABHA, US Complete and AFTCA. I've even heard people refer to these four organizations as regional sectors of AF with NBHA and ABHA being the southern sector, US Complete being to the northeast and AFTCA covering the west. AKC only recognizes AKC.

AKC and AF are amazingly similar in theory. The difference seems to be in application. Both venues run braces over a course and the judges and gallery ride along and after all the braces the judges put up who they think was the best. Both venues use blank pistols, though some AKC trials require dogs to come back to the judges and demonstrate that they can retrieve before they're awarded a win. It's because the versaitle breeds are required to earn so many points from these "retrieving trials" in order to earn their title since they are "versatile." Both venues require dogs to be steady to wing, shot and fall, back, put down a forward race, etc. Also, both venues have puppy and Derby classes, but AKC has Gun Dog (closer-working) and All-Age (bigger-running) stakes while AF has Shoting dogs (closer working than AA, but still big-running from what I've seen) and All-Age (bigger-running) stakes.

Here's the difference as I've seen in AF and AKC, but if I'm saying anything that offends anyone, just give me some slack, I'm a rookie to field trialing and don't mean to step on any toes. AF trials are ran more to the extremes. If you want a thoroughbred of a birddog that eats up the ground and has more looksl ike he's chasing the sun when you turn him loose, then you'll do well to join the AF crowd. This is mainly the Pointer/Setter crowd, this is the "white dog" venue and the long-tailed, white dogs reign in this game. AKC is more of a hunter-friendly venue with dogs that put down an attractive, forward race, but don't run as extreme as the AF dogs do (at least not the Gun Dog stakes). I wouldn't think the AKC AA stakes are as big as the AF AA stakes or Ames wouldn't be the event that it is. But, in all fairness I've never seen an AA brace because I really enjoy dogs that work closer. Although, I do like to take dogs with big-running lines and shorten up their range. They are so much more fun to run than a melancholy worker, in my opinion.

I would say that's the primary difference in the two. I will say that it seems the best dogs at either an AKC or AF trial will be equally nice dogs, but there wil be more nice dogs per capita at an AF trial than an AF trial. At AKC trials you seem to get more hobbyists who have just one dog or two and are looking for something to do on the weekends. Some of those folks are bad mama jammas, but some of them are just looking to have some fun and aren't even that competitive. It seems that almost everyone at an AF trial is out for blood and has put in the hours required to get a dog ready to tear up the countryside.

If anyone could step in and correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, feel free.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by PntrRookie » Wed May 30, 2012 9:27 am

Stoneface wrote:AF governs the FDSB and recognizes titles and wins issued by NBHA, ABHA, US Complete and AFTCA. I've even heard people refer to these four organizations as regional sectors of AF with NBHA and ABHA being the southern sector, US Complete being to the northeast and AFTCA covering the west.

Close...but it really is not a regional thing. Especially concerning the AFTCA. The AFTCA governs ALL the Amateur AF trials (be that NBHA, ABHA, US Complete, Region XX)
Stoneface wrote:It seems that almost everyone at an AF trial is out for blood and has put in the hours required to get a dog ready to tear up the countryside.
Not out for blood but we do want to beat you. ;) Just like in any competition...lot of blood loss in NSTRA too ;) Our local clubs here in WI put on a lot of fun weekend AF trials...walking AND horseback. We have BIG support from a few local pros along with a large group of Amateurs. I posted this to our local clubs and I feel it speaks to the trial scene here in WI...(and this does NOT include the dog numbers the grouse trialers pull in - there is also a BIG following in the woods)...

"All, I have always remarked on how we should be proud of our local trials and the numbers we draw. A BIG thank you goes out to ALL the judges, amateur handler/owners, the numerous Professionals that support us, along with the new club in Green Bay. As we wrap up the walking trial season here in WI, I was doing some number crunching and thought you may be interested in how we "stack up" to the rest of the NBHA across the country.

Rough numbers after this week: As of 5/13/12
Number of states that hosted NBHA trials in 2011-2012: 12
Number of dogs recorded (some are yet to come in) that entered a trial: 1,189
Number of dogs per state:
IA: None recorded yet - AR: None recorded yet - GA: 24 - OK: 47 - MO: 56 - TN: 62 - TX: 88 - KS: 104 - AL: 136 - SC: 173 - KY: 197 - WI: 302

The ONLY NBHA Championship (National OR Regional) that drew more dogs than our NBHA Regional CH was the National Open CH. We ran 32 dogs and the National ran 37! EVERYONE should be proud of the efforts we have all put in. Wisconsin ran over 25% of all the NBHA dogs (yes a few are yet to be recorded). We all need to continue to find and welcome new handlers, run more Cease @ Flush/Gun Dog stakes, look for land opportunities, welcome and support neighboring states (FYI, next year there may be new trials in IN and IA that are within distance to attend.) etc. This will benefit us all! If you have ANY questions, concerns, ideas, etc., feel free to email or call me. Great job Wisconsin and handlers who came in from other states!"

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by slistoe » Wed May 30, 2012 9:57 am

Stoneface wrote: At AKC trials you seem to get more hobbyists who have just one dog or two and are looking for something to do on the weekends. Some of those folks are bad mama jammas, but some of them are just looking to have some fun and aren't even that competitive. It seems that almost everyone at an AF trial is out for blood and has put in the hours required to get a dog ready to tear up the countryside.

If anyone could step in and correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, feel free.
This made me chuckle. If you don't want to be competitive and just need somewhere to go and be for the weekend with your dog I am pretty sure the AF folks will take your entry money as gladly as the AKC folks. I have never met anyone running a dog in a trial at any venue that didn't hope that this brace would be the one where their dog would lay down a winning performance. Some are more of an eternal optimist than others :) but they were still there to give it their best shot and be genuinely disappointed if things don't turn out the way they hoped for. :(

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed May 30, 2012 11:16 am

Stoneface wrote: This is mainly the Pointer/Setter crowd, this is the "white dog" venue and the long-tailed, white dogs reign in this game.
Do you even know what the term "white dog" means? And there is AF GSP trials.

You get all mad when you questions don't get answered then you ramble on about something that has nothing to do with the OP.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 1:10 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
Stoneface wrote: This is mainly the Pointer/Setter crowd, this is the "white dog" venue and the long-tailed, white dogs reign in this game.
Do you even know what the term "white dog" means? And there is AF GSP trials.

You get all mad when you questions don't get answered then you ramble on about something that has nothing to do with the OP.

+1
NGSPA trials are breed restricted and sanctioned under American Field. NGPDA is the same. German shorthairs, white or otherwise, may run in any AF venue not restricted to a single breed. And, I would like to see what is considered a "white dog."
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by slistoe » Wed May 30, 2012 1:36 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:And, I would like to see what is considered a "white dog."
Have you seen a Miller pointer?

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 1:47 pm

slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:And, I would like to see what is considered a "white dog."
Have you seen a Miller pointer?
Yes. And you?
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed May 30, 2012 2:05 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:And, I would like to see what is considered a "white dog."
Have you seen a Miller pointer?
Yes. And you?
Well, that is a white dog. It has to do with the bloodline, not the breed or the tail length.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 30, 2012 2:16 pm

slistoe wrote:
Stoneface wrote: At AKC trials you seem to get more hobbyists who have just one dog or two and are looking for something to do on the weekends. Some of those folks are bad mama jammas, but some of them are just looking to have some fun and aren't even that competitive. It seems that almost everyone at an AF trial is out for blood and has put in the hours required to get a dog ready to tear up the countryside.

If anyone could step in and correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, feel free.
This made me chuckle. If you don't want to be competitive and just need somewhere to go and be for the weekend with your dog I am pretty sure the AF folks will take your entry money as gladly as the AKC folks. I have never met anyone running a dog in a trial at any venue that didn't hope that this brace would be the one where their dog would lay down a winning performance. Some are more of an eternal optimist than others :) but they were still there to give it their best shot and be genuinely disappointed if things don't turn out the way they hoped for. :(
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed May 30, 2012 2:20 pm

Stoneface,

Sorry to bust your chops here but, I just found your "kennel website". You ask A LOT of questions for a "pro". Find it quite interesting to be honest. :roll:

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 30, 2012 2:25 pm

Ohhhh if you want to see why, just watch the you tube videos.... Wow

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 2:49 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Stoneface,

Sorry to bust your chops here but, I just found your "kennel website". You ask A LOT of questions for a "pro". Find it quite interesting to be honest. :roll:
It's not the questions, it's the answers.

BTW, I have a white dog, probably Miller bred. Don't know. The guy that threw him out of his truck along the highway didn't include the papers. Rescue wouldn't take him from the lady who picked him up, so I signed the sucker card.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed May 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Stoneface,

Sorry to bust your chops here but, I just found your "kennel website". You ask A LOT of questions for a "pro". Find it quite interesting to be honest. :roll:
It's not the questions, it's the answers.

BTW, I have a white dog, probably Miller bred. Don't know. The guy that threw him out of his truck along the highway didn't include the papers. Rescue wouldn't take him from the lady who picked him up, so I signed the sucker card.
If you don't know, then its not a white dog.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Wed May 30, 2012 2:52 pm

ultracarry wrote:Ohhhh if you want to see why, just watch the you tube videos.... Wow
I watched 3 vids. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Not the way I go about it, but it works.
I know people that have trained with him and he knows what he's doing. Haven't seen the website. Don't put much faith in websites.

Sounds like a lot of his questions are ft related. Maybe he wants to learn.

Why 'ya busting his balls?

Doug

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed May 30, 2012 2:58 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Ohhhh if you want to see why, just watch the you tube videos.... Wow
I watched 3 vids. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Not the way I go about it, but it works.
I know people that have trained with him and he knows what he's doing. Haven't seen the website. Don't put much faith in websites.

Sounds like a lot of his questions are ft related. Maybe he wants to learn.

Why 'ya busting his balls?

Doug
Doug, youre kidding about the videos right?

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Kmack » Wed May 30, 2012 3:13 pm

ElhewPointer wrote: Do you even know what the term "white dog" means? And there is AF GSP trials.
Yes, and a hint - the word Miller is not part of the answer...

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by MTO4Life » Wed May 30, 2012 3:46 pm

ultracarry wrote:when you talk about retrieving and AKC you have not read the requirements for a FC or AFC... Retrieving points are a must. I believe I have over 10 retrieving points on my dog alone, love to retrieve birds. I think a lot of.people would rather run in a retrieving stake because they like to reward the dog...
This is almost correct. Brittany's do not need to have retrieving points to be a FC or AFC, only a 3 point major at a brittany hosted trial. That being said, my britt has won a trial at a non-britt stake and took the retrieving points. She can do it, just isn't required by the AKC rules. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just the way it is written.

I think numbers may be down a touch, but not significantly from what I've experienced. That being said, I don't go to as many trials as I live in Canada so I have to plan accordingly if I want to compete south of the border...

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 30, 2012 4:07 pm

Sorry I didn't include Brittanys.... Or pointers.....

I bust his balls because he doesn't try to find the answer for anything... Just starts a new thread and asks the same question that has been asked within the week. It gets pretty old. There are also some other things..... Don't want to make it a "personal attack".

Seems like when people don't have a job, need money, have a dog, they will become a dog "trainer". Not knowing what to do or how to do it they strike out on a quest to ask 1000 questions. They will take peoples money, not train the dogs, and soil the profession of being a pro trainer. There are some great trainers (i have used two) and there are some that I have only used to kennel my dog.

The good ones can run dogs and have good work ethic, the bad phez you can usually spot when they leave thier truck......

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by MTO4Life » Wed May 30, 2012 4:23 pm

ultracarry wrote:Sorry I didn't include Brittanys.... Or pointers.....

I bust his balls because he doesn't try to find the answer for anything... Just starts a new thread and asks the same question that has been asked within the week. It gets pretty old. There are also some other things..... Don't want to make it a "personal attack".

Seems like when people don't have a job, need money, have a dog, they will become a dog "trainer". Not knowing what to do or how to do it they strike out on a quest to ask 1000 questions. They will take peoples money, not train the dogs, and soil the profession of being a pro trainer. There are some great trainers (i have used two) and there are some that I have only used to kennel my dog.

The good ones can run dogs and have good work ethic, the bad phez you can usually spot when they leave thier truck......
No worries. I understand what you are saying about bad trainers. I have a good one and am 100% confident in his abilities. Others..., well, you hit the nail on the head!

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by fuzznut » Wed May 30, 2012 4:32 pm

In Stones defense, he has brought up some interesting topics, things that new folks to pointing dogs may want to know, but don't know to ask.
But I do wish those who really don't know the answers wouldn't toss in answers that they "think" might be right. There is enough balderdash out there as there is!

Opinions are one thing, but when people post things as facts when they really don't have a clue..... makes my head hurt!!!!!

OK, carry on gang! Talking dogs, and trials is fun
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Stoneface » Wed May 30, 2012 4:36 pm

Ultra, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way and I'll not say anything after this, but I just wanted to set the record straight that I'm not trying to train dogs just to make a few bucks. I've been training dogs since I was 12 and owned a mobile dog training business (just pet obedience) in the Dallas area when I was 16. I did alright, too. Never had anyone complain or demand their money back or anything.

I just went back and looked at my post history and I don't see where I've posted a thousand questions about training. Form, maybe. Trials, sure. But not training. Even if I did, what's wrong with that? Don't you ever wonder how others train? Don't you read training books and watch videos by dog trainers? I don't just enjoy training dogs out in the field, I enjoy the study of it. It's a scholarly endeavor with me. When you think you're to the point that you can't improve or learn any more, well, that's when you should step back and check yourself. No, I'm very adamant about how I train my dogs, I've never had any complaints from friends or people whose dogs I've trained, my dogs listen and we all have fun. I guess I'm just missing where I'm being so outlandish.

In Ricky Ticky's post above he said he doesn't put much stock in websites (also, thanks for the comment, Doug). That's something that seems pretty elementary. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to judge anything or anyone from a website or just because they post a lot on a message board. I may not be experienced in the way it would take to bring on an Ames dog, but I really don't want to, that's not my interest. But, I feel pretty confident in how I train and have a method I go by. If you think I "ask 1000 questions" and think I ask so many because I have no idea how to go about something, feel free to drop me a PM on anything you'd like help with and I'll outline in detail what to do and how to do it. If I wasn't confident in my ability to train I wouldn't be trying to start a training business.

And, if anyone wants to watch these videos of mine or visit my site, just pop in to http://www.youtube.com/user/stonefacekennel or http://www.stonefacekennels.com.

Also, Doug, man, you still get that cookie mix for free? For about six years now I've wondered how they'd taste if they weren't burnt! Haha. Tell Jim to keep his day job. ;)
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 30, 2012 5:07 pm

Stoneface wrote:Ultra, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way and I'll not say anything after this, but I just wanted to set the record straight that I'm not trying to train dogs just to make a few bucks. I've been training dogs since I was 12 and owned a mobile dog training business (just pet obedience) in the Dallas area when I was 16. I did alright, too. Never had anyone complain or demand their money back or anything.
So by this post you were a professional dog trainer from the time you were 12.... Even if you received $1.00 for training someone's dog... A bag of dog food of a soda.... That makes you a professional (by terminology alone). So when you ran your dog in an amateur stake you were by definition a professional... Unless you drove around town and trained dogs for free on your own dime (maybe that's why you.didn't get any complaints).

I truly don't know which story to believe... You became a professional 2 months ago or when you were 12...

Sometimes when you try to dig yourself out of a hole you end up not being able to climb out..

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Yahoo » Wed May 30, 2012 5:18 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Stoneface wrote:Ultra, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way and I'll not say anything after this, but I just wanted to set the record straight that I'm not trying to train dogs just to make a few bucks. I've been training dogs since I was 12 and owned a mobile dog training business (just pet obedience) in the Dallas area when I was 16. I did alright, too. Never had anyone complain or demand their money back or anything.
So by this post you were a professional dog trainer from the time you were 12.... Even if you received $1.00 for training someone's dog... A bag of dog food of a soda.... That makes you a professional (by terminology alone). So when you ran your dog in an amateur stake you were by definition a professional... Unless you drove around town and trained dogs for free on your own dime (maybe that's why you.didn't get any complaints).

I truly don't know which story to believe... You became a professional 2 months ago or when you were 12...

Sometimes when you try to dig yourself out of a hole you end up not being able to climb out..
I have a friend that told me he has Flyers up in the Vets office to train dogs. Definitely not an amateur.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by birddogger » Wed May 30, 2012 5:23 pm

Don't want to make it a "personal attack".
Too late! :o

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed May 30, 2012 5:53 pm

Kmack wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote: Do you even know what the term "white dog" means? And there is AF GSP trials.
Yes, and a hint - the word Miller is not part of the answer...

Actually - the "Original" white dog was Riggins White Knight. He was the progenitor of today's "white dogs".

However, in the last twenty years or so, the term "white dog" is in fact used pretty much to indicate tightly bred Miller dogs such as Miller's Silver Bullett, Miller's True Spirit, Miller's Chief, and many of the dogs bearing Lester or Wiggins or House or Phillips prefixes that are, in fact, fairly tightly Miller breeding.

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Last edited by RayGubernat on Wed May 30, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Stoneface » Wed May 30, 2012 5:54 pm

Alright, I'll make this about as plain as I can because I don't want anyone to think I'm backhanded.

I've been training dogs since I was 12, but not in exchange for anything. My dad was head of security for hotel in Las Vegas and brought home a dog he found abandonded in a room one night. He was a mess so I trained him. I liked it so I started tinkering with dogs that belonged to friends and family. It was a lot of fun and it never considered to me to charge people. I was just learning and having fun. When I was 15 I started working and it donned on me I didn't have to go to work everyday when I might be able to make some cash training. I put out some feelers and picked up a few clients. Just meeting with them at their home, doing group lessons or whatever. We still lived in an apartment complex and I had my dogs, but couldn't have boarded anything. Did that for a few years and was doing okay.

When I was 20 I wasn't training for a living anymore, but hooked up with a guy from Texas and we headed out to a place he just bought in Arizona to start a business dealing with obedience and personal protection. It didn't work out. Later that year I spent a summer with a pro, but it was more of an apprenticeship than a job. I haven't accepted any money for training since then. I started college in 2008 and have been busy working and schooling and messing with my own dogs. I'm going to graduate in December and really would like to be training full-time in a few years so I figured I should get my butt in gear and put myself out there so I don't have to start from zero when I graduate. I decided to put off advertising or anything until after the trial on March 31/ April 1.

After that I started an ad in the Springfield Thrifty Nickel, put up fliers all over Joplin, Seneca and Neosho, put up some decals on the pickup and had some cards made up. I got a call the other day from my first possible client. She wants a Lab puppy obedience trained and when they get back from vacation, if they have the cash, they'll bring the pup out.

Anyhow, like I said in the other thread, I wanted to make sure I was strait with everyone so I called AKC's performance events division and spoke with a director, laid it all out and they said I was good to go. Also spoke with the folks putting on the trial and to let them know what the deal was and they said if AKC was cool with it, so was the club. If the powers that be are square with it and don't have a problem, I don't see why anyone else would.
Not two stories, just different paragraphs of the same story.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by ultracarry » Wed May 30, 2012 6:23 pm

Still would have been considered a pro....... Read the regulations book...

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 6:32 pm

ultracarry wrote:Still would have been considered a pro....... Read the regulations book...
You are assuming this person agrees that rules made by others apply to them.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Kmack » Wed May 30, 2012 6:39 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
Kmack wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote: Do you even know what the term "white dog" means? And there is AF GSP trials.
Yes, and a hint - the word Miller is not part of the answer...

Actually - the "Original" white dog was Riggins White Knight. He was the progenitor of today's "white dogs".

However, in the last twenty years or so, the term "white dog" is in fact used pretty much to indicate tightly bred Miller dogs such as Miller's Silver Bullett, Miller's True Spirit, Miller's Chief, and many of the dogs bearing Lester or Wiggins or House or Phillips prefixes that are, in fact, fairly tightly Miller breeding.

RayG
+1

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by KwikIrish » Wed May 30, 2012 8:30 pm

What am I missing?
Definition of an Amateur for Pointing Breed Trials
An Amateur is a person who, during the period of two years preceding the trial has not accepted remuneration in any form for the training of a hunting dog or the han- dling of a dog in a field trial.
For purposes of this definition the word remuneration means payment in money, goods or services.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 8:48 pm

Definition of Professional and Amateur
Section 1. Any person who receives or has received, either directly or indirectly, compensation for training or handling dogs (including handling of dogs on a plantation or shooting preserve) other than his own or those of an immediate family member, is not an amateur.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by KwikIrish » Wed May 30, 2012 8:57 pm

So if he hasn't accepted a client dog prior to these events, how is this being violated?
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by basic instinct » Wed May 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Did not read all posts but my 2 cents worth They need to add more Walking trials I believe will help bring out the Beginners, A lot of folks do not have or want to mess with the additional cost of a Horse or have a place to keep one beings how it already costs $4.29 gal for reg here towing a horse trailer really cuts into the wallet book. I know you can walk at a Horse trial but it Kinda get frowned at a little seems to me.

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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 pm

KwikIrish wrote:So if he hasn't accepted a client dog prior to these events, how is this being violated?
Working for a pro counts as pro.
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Re: Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

Post by brad27 » Wed May 30, 2012 9:09 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:So if he hasn't accepted a client dog prior to these events, how is this being violated?
Working for a pro counts as pro.
Only of he is being paid.

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