Birddog and Field Trial Participation?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Definition of Professional and Amateur
Section 1. Any person who receives or has received, either directly or indirectly, compensation for training or handling dogs (including handling of dogs on a plantation or shooting preserve) other than his own or those of an immediate family member, is not an amateur.

Bingo! So even if the AKC rep said "its ok, just do it" it still doesn't make it right. It's called integrity. It also doesn't specify it has to be hunting dog training.... Dog training is a catch all... He stated he was paid when younger..

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:21 pm

Even if he was being paid, the regs states that there's a two year window to endthat pro status. Also, I don't recall him ever stating he worked for a pro field trainer. Am I still missing something?
The ft manual specifies 2 years AND hunting dog terms. That combined with the fact that the AKC personally okayed him to run dogs at this trial as an amateur proves that he is eligible according to the regulations.
You can't just pick out the parts that are applicable to what point you're trying to prove, you're obligated to take the entire regulation regarding this situation into consideration.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:28 pm

KwikIrish wrote:Even if he was being paid, the regs states that there's a two year window to endthat pro status. Also, I don't recall him ever stating he worked for a pro field trainer. Am I still missing something?
The ft manual specifies 2 years AND hunting dog terms. That combined with the fact that the AKC personally okayed him to run dogs at this trial as an amateur proves that he is eligible according to the regulations.
You can't just pick out the parts that are applicable to what point you're trying to prove, you're obligated to take the entire regulation regarding this situation into consideration.

I quoted AFTCA. He has repeatedly mentioned working for or "with" different pro trainers, one in particular.

As far as AKC personally approving anyone to do anything, all we have to go on is this person's statement to that effect.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Alright, foul there on my part. Mine was I regards to Akc. Regardless, working with a pro (ir receiving menotorship/guidance) doesn't scream violation to me. Most amatures have worked worh at least one pro if not worked "with" several pros.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:50 pm

KwikIrish wrote:Alright, foul there on my part. Mine was I regards to Akc. Regardless, working with a pro (ir receiving menotorship/guidance) doesn't scream violation to me. Most amatures have worked worh at least one pro if not worked "with" several pros.

My bad. I fixed my post.

Now, with regard to the amateur question, were you there?

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:50 pm

fuzznut wrote:
I don't really understand what the goal is for having a field champion. They are way to powerful for the average weekender
Sorry in advance for taking this a bit off track of the original question... but I really have a tough time understanding the above. Looking at your web site it appears you have been using some pretty successful trial dogs and genetics in your breeding program. Why is it people are willing to use the "high powered dogs" and then knock them in the next breath for being "way too powerful". You use the genetics, then beat the people up that gave you the opportunity to tap into the talent.

What is the difference between all the different venues? Rules, registry, the mentality of the people... but they are all looking for a good bird dog in the end. Some are walking events, some are horseback, some put emphasis on bird work, some on retrieve, etc., etc.

Like Nike says... Just do it! Test, trial, hunt....
Fuzz

I shouldn't waste my time with this because it goes beyond senseless. but here we go. why would anybody be so offended by my statement that I don't really understand the goal of having a field champion.
I don't. That is just a fact not something to argue or get upset about. I also don't get buying a dog and having a pro train and handle it so I can say I have a field Champion. It is simply not my way of doing things. Is it good for the ego to know you payed the bills. It is just not the way I go. If some of you do go that way ,great I'm not offended by that.
To Ultracarry: I would like to say I have 7 AKC MH s and 3 passes on the eight one, all of which I bred or bought as puppies,raised and trained. At least three of which would have easily been Fc. At least I have been told that by several judges. I am fully aware of how to handle a dog with out a e-collar. In fact my last MH was cc at six months and never wore one again. I have also bought many puppies and started and trained them to various levels and sold them because they didn't fit into my plans as a breeder some from conformation but more from attitude I don't claim to be a expert but I will put my dogs down with anybodies.
I also freely admit to using other breeders bloodlines to start my program. how else would one start. You may notice that I thanked them for their help and in no way did I ever beat anybody up or knock their dogs. I like big running dogs as much as anybody and probably more than most. I have dogs that range a mile or more in open country. they keep track of me and are with me when we get to the truck. But ,I am realistic enough to know they are not for everybody. When you breed dogs to run bigger and bigger you eliminate many of your buyers and as we go more toward dogs who don't retrieve we eliminate more buyers. Soon the bunny huggers will not let us use live birds or for sure not shoot them. that will eliminate more retrieving. Some of us will keep breeding natural retrievers that like to hunt in the same zip code as us and we don't need a Garmin to find them when it's time to go home.
The trial dogs of the era mine were from were not close to what they are now. We do breed dogs that would compete in at least walking trials, but they are bred for serious bird hunters, which me and my family are. These dogs are bred on a limited basis.
The OP was about not being able to sell puppies and if hunting was getting less popular as bird numbers rebound in the prairie states hunters will also. Economy hurts but should start rebounding too. People still like bird hunting. More shooters than hunters though.
. If you believe that the average person who wants a family pet and a occasional hunting dog needs or can handle a horseback field trial dog you are living in lala land . Sorry if I ruffle a few feathers. CJ

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:11 pm

Just wondering how you can say a dog could easily be an FC when it hasn't walked the walk or even run in the event. A judges opinion of a dog is good but when there are other better dogs running that day, no matter how much they like the dog it won't win.

It's interesting how you also say the ft dogs are running bigger and bigger, yet a lot of people can handle the dog to run in HB all age to a walking gun dog.... And an AKC MH ? No way a dumb running ft dog that works hard, wears a garmin, and needs to be found when its time to go home should be able to do that.

The answer to getting more people involved is education on the subject of bird dogs and field trials. Go experience one, run your dog, train your dog to win, and roll the dice. In a field trial thread the importance is having gone to a few and participation, unless your asking questions.

gus · Post by **gus** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:12 pm

KwikIrish wrote:What am I missing?
Definition of an Amateur for Pointing Breed Trials
An Amateur is a person who, during the period of two years preceding the trial has not accepted remuneration in any form for the training of a hunting dog or the han- dling of a dog in a field trial.
For purposes of this definition the word remuneration means payment in money, goods or services.

I also have spoken with the AKC in regards to the definition of an amateur. My wife does obedience training in her boarding kennel and they said that would not make me a pro if she does not train hunting dogs or handle in field trials. Of course that is my word I spoke to an AKC rep. I plan to run in AF in the future if their regulations state that I am a pro so be it.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:20 pm

The trial dogs of the era mine were from were not close to what they are now. We do breed dogs that would compete in at least walking trials, but they are bred for serious bird hunters, which me and my family are. These dogs are bred on a limited basis.

So I bred my little GSP female that has FT derby wins to a multiple hour AA champion dog. Both dogs are hunted extensively, I would be willing to bet more than your dogs are hunted each year. Both dogs live in the heart of great bird hunting and get hunted multiple times each week. Would those dogs be considered bred for serious bird hunters or not? Just curious, does FT wins disqualify a litter for "serious bird hunters"?

Silly FT bred dog bringin a bird back! A wild bird even, go figure! Her mom is the AA dog of the year in CO two years in a row. Her daddy has AA hour wins also, and SD wins. I hunt her every week. Always finds birds for me and somehow ends up back at the truck with me.

Get out of your box CJ! You must not have seen many good FT dogs, cause most of the dogs that people hunt with in my neck of the woods are almost all FT bred.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:24 pm

CJ - I found nothing wrong with your statement about not wanting a FC dog, but your logic to base that on was absolutely bogus.
You have no idea if your dog coulda/shoulda/woulda been an FC if you haven't been there/done that.
If you are truly breeding for "serious" bird hunters you will want all the horseback blood you can muster.
As long as the dogs have "bird" in them you will never have to worry about the retrieve - whether officially tested in competition or not.
You are right about the average weekend "hunter" who wants a companion dog that he can take with him hunting a couple of weekends a year. Hunting desire is not needed nor wanted in these dogs (but don't tell the "hunter" that - he will take offense).

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu May 31, 2012 6:08 am

CJ - I found nothing wrong with your statement about not wanting a FC dog, but your logic to base that on was absolutely bogus.
You have no idea if your dog coulda/shoulda/woulda been an FC if you haven't been there/done that.
If you are truly breeding for "serious" bird hunters you will want all the horseback blood you can muster.
As long as the dogs have "bird" in them you will never have to worry about the retrieve - whether officially tested in competition or not.
You are right about the average weekend "hunter" who wants a companion dog that he can take with him hunting a couple of weekends a year. Hunting desire is not needed nor wanted in these dogs (but don't tell the "hunter" that - he will take offense).

Don't ever accuse me of arrogance!!!

There are a ton of dogs with no FT in the pedigree that are more capable than most hunters will ever need. Buy a well bred pup and what it becomes is up to the owner. There are very good dogs in a number of venues that are to be respected and FT is just one of them.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu May 31, 2012 6:37 am

Some of you people need a class in understanding what you read.
The OP asked why very well bred pups from trial dogs are hard to sell. I stated my opinion. I never put down anybodies dogs or said anything about dumb or anything else. I don't get why it is so hard for some people to understand that everybody doesn't want the same dogs. If you are primarily a woodland Grouse hunter you don't need a dog that ranges a mile. With Garmins now we can hunt with dogs that do that, with bells not so much.
I will forever stand by my statement that I like a big running dog as much as the next guy, but they aren't for every body. How far they range has nothing to do with birdiness, desire,style or anything except run. If you haven't seen a dog who just likes to hear the wind in it's ear there are a lot of dogs you haven't seen. It is hard to beat a well bred ,thirty yard springer for desire, birdiness and enthusiasm. So, don't put down the close hunting dogs quite so much In the Midwest hunting pheasants in tall CRP there is not much reason for a 500 yard dog and that is what most bird hunters like to do.
One person who appears to be a one pony show also seems to be an expert on everything. How do you know we've never been there and done that. because you like it doesn't mean we all will.There seems to be very many FC dogs I can't believe they are all great.
For Elkhunter don't put too much money on your dogs hunting more than mine.
I give up, the only good dogs are trial dogs. That's why you can buy some of the best pups for a couple of hundred bucks or for free if you don't want a early pick. CJ

Post by **slistoe** » Thu May 31, 2012 7:19 am

JKP wrote: There are a ton of dogs with no FT in the pedigree that are more capable than most hunters will ever need. Buy a well bred pup and what it becomes is up to the owner. There are very good dogs in a number of venues that are to be respected and FT is just one of them.

Pretty close. Many well bred dogs will never achieve FC or VC of CH regardless of who they have as an owner. Otherwise I think you have it right.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu May 31, 2012 7:45 am

Stoneface wrote:From what you've seen, is the interaction in birddog and/or trials up or down (overall and in your area)?

I've gone to trials with eight braces in a stake and the old timers say they used to have gobs of dogs entered, not like now. Then there's the breeders who say they can't give away pups. There was one guy at a trial that said he bred his well-bred female, bred her with a big-name national champion (can't remember who it was) and was going on about how he had the pups advertised for almost nothing from Iowa to Texas and he couldn't get rid of them and even after he offered them for free he finally got homes for them as pets. Kind of a scary thought to think birddogs are dying out. To hear some people talk birddogs will be as popular in America as Foxhounds are.

It seems to me that from my experience numbers are down a bit at trials but not bad. It kinda goes in waves. Some years there alot of puppies, and less broke dogs, then less or no puppies and more broke dogs. There are a lot of pros in my area, so most trials are pretty full.

As far as puppies, I think the people that are breeding the proven males AND females are selling pups, no problem. Most of the time for pretty good money. Well bred just doesn't get it when the market is weak. You need connections and proven dogs to sell puppies.

I know quite a few people who will always have bird dogs.

Doug

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:43 am

For Elkhunter don't put too much money on your dogs hunting more than mine.
I give up, the only good dogs are trial dogs. That's why you can buy some of the best pups for a couple of hundred bucks or for free if you don't want a early pick. CJ

And it blows my mind that people will pay $800-$1200 for a hunt test dog! Or a "companion hunting dog"... Different strokes for different folks.

Also I have not had any problems with interest in my litter.....

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:08 am

We got an FC here that doesn't know how to hunt, knows how to be led in a bird field to birds but has no brains to hunt on his own independently. FC don't mean a whole lot to me unless i see the dog show some brains of his own......

Anyone says they don't want the high heat has never had high heat with brains and built in go with you......and if ya ask me thats worth payin for.
If average weekend hunters understood and had that, then felt welcome at trials more would probably take up the game.......

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:38 am

Many well bred dogs will never achieve FC or VC of CH regardless of who they have as an owner. Otherwise I think you have it right.

And most of them won't because of the hands on the other end of the lead....and a lot of folks will shoot a lot of birds over them and be happy. We all make a mistake when we think that only the best dogs go on to glory. A whole lot of "best dogs" are never heard from again and just go hunting...or never get the chance.

Besides the real value of a dog is what you find out during training. I've had some great dogs...but the cost of 2x4's to get them there was too much

The results (titles/scores) are great...respect is due....but how you got there is more important to me as a breeder.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu May 31, 2012 11:24 am

I am amazed at all of you that think you need to pass judgement on someone that one of our members has made some remarks about another member that didn't have any validity as far as any of you know. Why do you feel it necessary to try and critize someone else when you don't have any knowledge or have been harmed in anyway of what is going on? An un-necessary remark is all you are going on it appears.

Sorry I didn't do my job in the first place and take the post down so you all wouldn't be involved in something you have nothing to do with.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:45 pm

The OP asked why very well bred pups from trial dogs are hard to sell.

Alright Ezzy...to get back to the topic...because FT has a perception problem. You listen to guys talking about dogs 400-1000 yds away and already 99% of puppy buyers wonder what language you're speaking. They read a high % of dogs going lost and their eyes start to glaze over. Now PLEASE...I understand...and know that I can take any well adjusted, well bred FT dog and make a good foot hunting dog out of it. But that's not what y'all talk about...its not what you want to talk about...and no self respecting trialer is putting Youtube clips of his 150yd patterned foot hunting dog on the net. There is a disconnect.....plus as much as y'all don't want to believe it, there are some great NAVHDA dogs out there (yes, I know, with some FT lines as well) that act like what folks want....and where folks can go and get help...have fun without the expense (horse, ATV, the trainer, etc) and the pressure of competition. That's right...lot of folks have enough of that 9 to 5 (if anybody works that few hours anymore) everyday.

You have a PR problem....and the economy is bad

JMHO

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:48 pm

Everyone defines "well bred pups" way different.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu May 31, 2012 1:34 pm

Field trials are still pretty full in my area except for amateur walking puppy.

A fella called me up interested in my last litter after hearing from a vet about the litter. A second vet had heard about the litter from the first vet ninety miles away. The first vet had talked with one of the new owners and had performed a routine check-up on the pup. Apparently the first vet owned a GSP & hunted.

Anyway this fella calls me about any remaining pups. We had a nice long conversation & based upon how he planned to use a pup for hunting, his home situation and his lack of training experience, I recommended he talk with Howie (of this board). I left Howie a message telling him to expect a call & that I thought my pups probably had too much horsepower for this buyer's level of experience. Yes, I turned down a possible sale. One of the two pups left has won on the field trial circuit and is a good prospect. The other one ranges 150-200 yards & keeps track of me very well. They both have the physical tools but one is more independent & bold at this stage. You may check out Moonie's pedigree below. It's chock full of field trail proven stock , National Champions & Hall of Fame dogs with many more further back in the pedigree.

Ultimately if this prospective buyer had gotten the less bold pup I think he'd have been pretty happy. The other pup wouldn't have been a very good match. The point is in virtually all litters you'll get variation. A good breeder will recommend the best match for a buyer (or even turn them away), based upon what we've observed during the few first weeks. I'm with the group that likes a gun dog who hunts with you & keeps track of you regardless of how large they run. I also believe some of the bird dogs with the most potential will only achieve that potential in the hands of the right trainer with the proper amount of experience.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:26 pm

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Ohhhh if you want to see why, just watch the you tube videos.... Wow
I watched 3 vids. Looks like he knows what he's doing. Not the way I go about it, but it works.
I know people that have trained with him and he knows what he's doing. Haven't seen the website. Don't put much faith in websites.

Sounds like a lot of his questions are ft related. Maybe he wants to learn.

Why 'ya busting his balls?

Doug

x2

Post by **Sharon** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:44 pm

Stoneface wrote:Alright, I'll make this about as plain as I can because I don't want anyone to think I'm backhanded.

I've been training dogs since I was 12, but not in exchange for anything. My dad was head of security for hotel in Las Vegas and brought home a dog he found abandonded in a room one night. He was a mess so I trained him. I liked it so I started tinkering with dogs that belonged to friends and family. It was a lot of fun and it never considered to me to charge people. I was just learning and having fun. When I was 15 I started working and it donned on me I didn't have to go to work everyday when I might be able to make some cash training. I put out some feelers and picked up a few clients. Just meeting with them at their home, doing group lessons or whatever. We still lived in an apartment complex and I had my dogs, but couldn't have boarded anything. Did that for a few years and was doing okay.

When I was 20 I wasn't training for a living anymore, but hooked up with a guy from Texas and we headed out to a place he just bought in Arizona to start a business dealing with obedience and personal protection. It didn't work out. Later that year I spent a summer with a pro, but it was more of an apprenticeship than a job. I haven't accepted any money for training since then. I started college in 2008 and have been busy working and schooling and messing with my own dogs. I'm going to graduate in December and really would like to be training full-time in a few years so I figured I should get my butt in gear and put myself out there so I don't have to start from zero when I graduate. I decided to put off advertising or anything until after the trial on March 31/ April 1.

After that I started an ad in the Springfield Thrifty Nickel, put up fliers all over Joplin, Seneca and Neosho, put up some decals on the pickup and had some cards made up. I got a call the other day from my first possible client. She wants a Lab puppy obedience trained and when they get back from vacation, if they have the cash, they'll bring the pup out.

Anyhow, like I said in the other thread, I wanted to make sure I was strait with everyone so I called AKC's performance events division and spoke with a director, laid it all out and they said I was good to go. Also spoke with the folks putting on the trial and to let them know what the deal was and they said if AKC was cool with it, so was the club. If the powers that be are square with it and don't have a problem, I don't see why anyone else would.
Not two stories, just different paragraphs of the same story.

Don't feel you have to explain anything Stoneface. Your business is your business. Folks can read your posts or not. There are a couple members here who enjoy any opportunity provided to harrass someone.. They are like a bee to honey.
You are the perfect foil - young and open in your talk.
No more explaining unless you want to tell them to @#$%^ off.

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Thu May 31, 2012 3:38 pm

And we wonder why this is a dying sport!

azquailhntr · Post by **azquailhntr** » Thu May 31, 2012 3:49 pm

First, thanks to those that actually tried to answer the op's original question. I am fairly new to all of this and didn't know the differences very well. Second, how do all of you 'experts' justify taking this so far off of the original topic. If you want to argue start an argue thread and have at it otherwise answer the question asked or keep quiet

I have learned a great deal from this forum but, it will quickly be forgotten or replaced if every thread turns into a pi**ing contest

AZQ

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu May 31, 2012 5:35 pm

I think JKP is on track. If you talk to a guy that has never ran trial dogs before and never been to a trial and ask him what kind of range he wants on a dog, it's probably not going to be near as big as a half mile. On the other hand, if you get ahold of a good chunk of trialers out ther and ask them what their ideal range is, a ton would not want anything less than a half mile. Ask the average hunter why he doesn't trial and they usual say, "oh, I just enjoy hunting," or they go on about how they don't have a need for dogs that run that big and are that hard-headed, etc. It has to be the perception of the trial dogs and I think it's because trialers tend to boast a litle bit. Was talking to a guy looking to get into trialing and he said he just picked up a dog from a known breeder and the breeder said the dog will break away and not look back for 1,200 yards and just eats up the ground all day and has a motor that won't stop. I'm sure the breeder did say this, but my uncle also caught a 20 pound bass last summer and, darn the luck, wouldn't you know it, it happened to be on the only day he was fishing a controlled catch-and-release area and he forgot his camera. I'd like to get into some folks' Garmin and pull up the memory to see how far their dogs actually range and how fast they go for how long.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu May 31, 2012 7:54 pm

Stoneface wrote:I think JKP is on track. If you talk to a guy that has never ran trial dogs before and never been to a trial and ask him what kind of range he wants on a dog, it's probably not going to be near as big as a half mile. On the other hand, if you get ahold of a good chunk of trialers out ther and ask them what their ideal range is, a ton would not want anything less than a half mile. Ask the average hunter why he doesn't trial and they usual say, "oh, I just enjoy hunting," or they go on about how they don't have a need for dogs that run that big and are that hard-headed, etc. It has to be the perception of the trial dogs and I think it's because trialers tend to boast a litle bit. Was talking to a guy looking to get into trialing and he said he just picked up a dog from a known breeder and the breeder said the dog will break away and not look back for 1,200 yards and just eats up the ground all day and has a motor that won't stop. I'm sure the breeder did say this, but my uncle also caught a 20 pound bass last summer and, darn the luck, wouldn't you know it, it happened to be on the only day he was fishing a controlled catch-and-release area and he forgot his camera. I'd like to get into some folks' Garmin and pull up the memory to see how far their dogs actually range and how fast they go for how long.

Stoneface -

You really need to get out more. You will figure it out. When I was your age I was a whole lot more sure of how things were. Now, I ain't so sure about a lot of things i thought I knew all about. Maybe it's the Alzheimer's??

Oh and I would like to leave the aspiring businessman in you with a bit of advice... You can catch a whole lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

RayG

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu May 31, 2012 8:13 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Stoneface -

You really need to get out more. You will figure it out. When I was your age I was a whole lot more sure of how things were. Now, I ain't so sure about a lot of things i thought I knew all about. Maybe it's the Alzheimer's??

Oh and I would like to leave the aspiring businessman in you with a bit of advice... You can catch a whole lot more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

RayG

Oh, to be young and full of vinegar again!

Post by **slistoe** » Thu May 31, 2012 8:19 pm

JKP wrote:
Many well bred dogs will never achieve FC or VC of CH regardless of who they have as an owner. Otherwise I think you have it right.
And most of them won't because of the hands on the other end of the lead....and a lot of folks will shoot a lot of birds over them and be happy. We all make a mistake when we think that only the best dogs go on to glory. A whole lot of "best dogs" are never heard from again and just go hunting...or never get the chance.

Besides the real value of a dog is what you find out during training. I've had some great dogs...but the cost of 2x4's to get them there was too much The results (titles/scores) are great...respect is due....but how you got there is more important to me as a breeder.

No one ever said that only the very best go on to glory. That is your fabrication. Certainly there are very good dogs that go to folks where their talent will never be seen by anyone besides them. But what value is this knowledge to the breeder trying to breed up to the best dogs he can? No one will ever know about the dog unless it is somehow showcased to the greater dog public. And therein lies the value of competition - to allow other folks to know about those dogs which display better than average attributes.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:56 am

No one will ever know about the dog unless it is somehow showcased to the greater dog public. And therein lies the value of competition - to allow other folks to know about those dogs which display better than average attributes.

BINGO!! But now you are thinking like a breeder. In many breeds we have gotten to the point where the handler is more important than the dog. Yes....you are understanding me...there are many dogs that could be competitive and even a few that could be dominating....they just got sold....and went hunting. The only chance that a kennel has of really bringing the best forward happens when whole litters are kept in house, generation after generation.

But back to the topic....the reason good puppies sit unsold is really very simple....too many good pups and too few buyers. I see it in the Euro clubs too....folks breeding two top wonder dogs with the goal of finding the "Ueberhund" and the rest of the litter is a casualty of the exercise...and they're not getting the $$$$ they thought they would.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:27 am

JKP wrote:Yes....you are understanding me...

That's pretty rich. Maybe you could try not making up what people are saying and then repeating what they actually said for yourself.

As for your handler comment - I have never seen a handler judged in a trial stake or a test stake. But there are some dogs that never get a chance to show whether they are truly good or not because their handler keeps screwing them around. Is that what you mean - that some possibly good dogs never get to show it because of poor handling?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:45 am

As for your handler comment - I have never seen a handler judged in a trial stake or a test stake. But there are some dogs that never get a chance to show whether they are truly good or not because their handler keeps screwing them around. Is that what you mean - that some possibly good dogs never get to show it because of poor handling?

Seems no matter what I say...you're gonna try to screw with it. By handler, I mean trainer. I forget that in some circles that might be different people...everyone I know trains and handles their dogs. I see lots of dogs from every venue that don't get the advantage of tons of exposure, lots of game, skilled eyes and hands and timing during training. I'm not talking during competition..what % of dogs ever get to compete? That's what I meant...and you know it. I'm expecting a criticism of this post as well

Lighten up, slistoe....

No one will ever know about the dog unless it is somehow showcased to the greater dog public.

Lets agree to agree on this....when dogs are brought out at least we know about them....and can go check out the "rest of the story".

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:17 pm

Criticism? Just clarification. So you mean that there are good dogs who don't get their due because they happen to have a crappy trainer who can't bring out the good in them. And the point is..... We should be applauding these dogs because we just know they are great dogs with bad circumstance in life? Or is it that there are some trainers that are that good they are producing spectacular perfomances from useless dogs and they are doing this with proliferation so as to skew the breeding pool?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:17 pm

And the point is..... We should be applauding these dogs because we just know they are great dogs with bad circumstance in life?

Who said anything about applause? My point was that there are plenty of good dogs without the titles and national recognition...and people buy them and they are happy hunting them.

You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:49 pm

JKP wrote:
And the point is..... We should be applauding these dogs because we just know they are great dogs with bad circumstance in life?
Who said anything about applause? My point was that there are plenty of good dogs without the titles and national recognition...and people buy them and they are happy hunting them.

And then you imagined that someone might be disagreeing with you. Which of course no one was. However, if that was simply your point you really wouldn't have needed to throw in the digs at the organized dog performance events and the people who participate in them. The simple fact that not every exemplar dog sees the opportunity to be publicly recognized for such says nothing to diminish the fact that the only way to improve the overall quality of a breed is to publicly identify the superior animals that they may be used in breeding programs. There is only one way to do that and that is from within a recognized public performance event. All the hullabaloo about trainers and handlers and forgetting about the dogs is simply balderdash to hide behind from reality.

JKP wrote: You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.

I am not the one who is fantasizing here.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:51 pm

JKP wrote:
And the point is..... We should be applauding these dogs because we just know they are great dogs with bad circumstance in life?
Who said anything about applause? My point was that there are plenty of good dogs without the titles and national recognition...and people buy them and they are happy hunting them.

You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.

JKP YOU CAN'T WIN. SOME PEOPLE JUST LIKE TO DISAGREE. PLUS THE DOG DON'T GIVE A RAT'S A_ _ CJ

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:14 pm

JKP wrote:You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.

How dare you suggest there is a dog world out there outside of field trials...

Seriously though if all you hang around with or talk to are field trial folks, you probably think everyone wants field trial dogs.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:10 pm

Guys -

C'mon now. There are plenty of fine bird dogs out there.

EVERYBODY I know has at least one superior specimen that is acredit to the breed...and THAT is the problem. Everyone thinks their dog is great. Some really are. Some really are not.

BUT... How do you separate the truly superior specimens from the ones whose owners BELIEVE to be superior?

How do you PROVE to someone that your dog is a credit to the breed and worth breeding to?

You guys know the answer. It is through tests and trials.

You can argue on about how you really only know if a dog has grit and endurance if you watch it run through cactus for eight hours in eighty five degree heat or some such silliness...

But really, who in the world is going to do that? I for one am not about to drive thirty hours to south Texas, to watch a dog run, so I can decide whether or not I want a pup out of that dog. Nobody else is either I think.

Tests and trials, with all their flaws and shortcomings, offer the buying public and the breeding public the most objective, most verifiable and most reliable evidence of the abilities of a dog relative to its peers.

If the dog has not been tested or trialed...all that the buying or breeding public has is the word of the person who owns the dog. Sorry, but for me... most of the time, that just ain't enough. I like to see proof of some sort. I suspect I am not alone.

As to the original questions, trial participation is down, largely, I believe due to the lousy economy. Some regions are being hurt worse than others but trialing and testing require a significant investment in disposable income and free time. Both of these are in relatively short supply in a down economy because most good folks will choose to put food on their table rather than go play with their dogs.

As to the reasons why well bred litters are not selling, there are lots of reasons and lots of factors. First and foremost, the sport of upland bird hunting is declining in popularity. A large part of this decline is due to the disappearance of wild birds from many areas, especially the bobwhite quail. The large pool of sport hunters is simply no there to create demand for more bird dogs. The economy comes in to play here as well. Even dedicated upland bird hunters may well have to cut back, from six dogs to four or from four to two.

Another factor is that the upland bird hunter of today has far more choices of breeds. There are many fine breeds whose innate talents are a better perceived fit for some upland bird hunters than other breeds. Who knew about Deutsche Drathaars, or Small Munsterlanders or Pudelpointers twenty years ago? Who even saw one? Not me...that's for sure. With the explosion of information, both print and video, that the internet provides and and with the relative ease of of shipping dogs to anywhere, from anywhere, the prospective buyer has no real restrictions other than cost.

A continuing factor in the effort to sell well bred bird dogs is the misconception that they might be "too much dog" for some. These misconceptions, I believe, are perpetuated largely by those who want to sell their own choice of dog to the hunting dog public. This factor is diminishing partly because the pool of upland bird hunters that remains is more dedicated to the sport and has much higher expectations of their bird dogs and themselves as hunters and trainers. They are also much better informed as a group, than they used to be and much more likely to do some research into their options before purchasing a bird dog.

The good news in all of this is that the kennels who do the right things, breed responsibly, trial and test and DNA their dogs are going to get more of the remaining business and the kennels who are trying to make a buck on someone else's reputation will get less.

It will probably get more and more expensive to get a quality bird dog in the future, because the cost of producing and proving the worth of the breeding will continue to rise. That does not make me happy, but if that is what it must be....

RayG

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:24 pm

cjhills wrote:I also don't get buying a dog and having a pro train and handle it so I can say I have a field Champion. It is simply not my way of doing things. Is it good for the ego to know you payed the bills. It is just not the way I go.

Don't you consider yourself a pro? When my husband met you I was standing there and the discussion was Chopper. . I've seen Chopper run 4 times. 3 times you handled, once the owner handled. You told my husband you sold Chopper and you were finishing and handling Chopper for the gent . Any part of the monies or barter received in the sale to finish the dogs MH wouldn't that give you pro status. Not trying to argue with you just asking. I asked my husband and said ask jerry.

BigShooter wrote:I recommended he talk with Howie (of this board). I left Howie a message telling him to expect a call & that I thought my pups probably had too much horsepower for this buyer's level of experience. Yes, I turned down a possible sale.

BigShooter thanks for sending the gentleman our way. Tammy

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:34 pm

cjhills wrote:
JKP wrote:
And the point is..... We should be applauding these dogs because we just know they are great dogs with bad circumstance in life?
Who said anything about applause? My point was that there are plenty of good dogs without the titles and national recognition...and people buy them and they are happy hunting them.

You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.
JKP YOU CAN'T WIN. SOME PEOPLE JUST LIKE TO DISAGREE. PLUS THE DOG DON'T GIVE A RAT'S A_ _ CJ

And some people just like to make stuff up. I didn't respond to the fabrications in your last post because they were so far off the wall that a team of horses couldn't drag you near to reality.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:47 pm

If the dog has not been tested or trialed...all that the buying or breeding public has is the word of the person who owns the dog. Sorry, but for me... most of the time, that just ain't enough. I like to see proof of some sort. I suspect I am not alone.

No Ray, you are not alone. There are a lot of very good dogs out there that have never been trialed or tested. But when in the market for a puppy, unless I know a lot about the sire and dam and maybe the pedigrees behind them, I want to see some proof of success in trials and/or tests in the parents and ancestors. That goes whether I am buying a dog for hunting, trialing, testing or all of the above. If I don't know the dogs, I need something to go by.

Charlie

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:25 pm

I'm with you Ray, Charlie, and slistoe.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:45 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
cjhills wrote:I also don't get buying a dog and having a pro train and handle it so I can say I have a field Champion. It is simply not my way of doing things. Is it good for the ego to know you payed the bills. It is just not the way I go.
Don't you consider yourself a pro? When my husband met you I was standing there and the discussion was Chopper. . I've seen Chopper run 4 times. 3 times you handled, once the owner handled. You told my husband you sold Chopper and you were finishing and handling Chopper for the gent . Any part of the monies or barter received in the sale to finish the dogs MH wouldn't that give you pro status. Not trying to argue with you just asking. I asked my husband and said ask jerry.

BigShooter wrote:I recommended he talk with Howie (of this board). I left Howie a message telling him to expect a call & that I thought my pups probably had too much horsepower for this buyer's level of experience. Yes, I turned down a possible sale.

BigShooter thanks for sending the gentleman our way. Tammy

I can't in my wildest imagination figure out what the heck that has to do with this post. If you wanted to ask me you have my e-mail, my phone and my post office address. I don't know what you were smoking when you thought you overheard this conversation, but you are not even close. Incidently I don't believe I ever had the" pleasure" of meeting you.I never owned Chopper . He is own by Cal and Jeremy Harms. They bought him from Jason Norton who was his breeder. Chopper spends a good deal of time in my kennel and I did his bird training. This was just between friends and wether and how I was payed is our business. I also use him in my breeding program. He does that for his room and board.
Not that this is any of your business, But you never seen me run Chopper 3 times.I Really doubt you seen me run him any times . Jeremy handle Chopper in his Junior tests in 2010 2 at rice creek and 2 at the TWCWHC test at Kelly Farm. Chopper ran 6 Masters in 2011 2 at Rice Creek handled by Cal which he passed, 2 at the TWCHC which he DQ'd. I handled him twice at the LSPDC tests 1 pass and one DQ. If that makes me a pro so be it. Would I still not have the right to hire a pro to train and handle my dog in a venue I didn't feel qualified to go in on my own.
Is there a full moon or what? If the moderaters choose not to allow this I will contact you in person. This way out of control. No wonder a close relative by marriage got the boot CJ

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:03 pm

ACooper wrote:
JKP wrote:You need to get in touch with reality and the rest of the dog world.
How dare you suggest there is a dog world out there outside of field trials...

Seriously though if all you hang around with or talk to are field trial folks, you probably think everyone wants field trial dogs.

And if you spend a lifetime hunting with bird dogs, running in trials and hunt tests, judging trials and hunt tests, hanging out and training with folks who hunt but have never tested or trialed, hanging out at and talking to folks in NAVHDA tests, etc. etc. you start to get an understanding of the importance that trialing programs have in the maintenance and improvement of bird dogs.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:27 am

The simple fact that not every exemplar dog sees the opportunity to be publicly recognized for such says nothing to diminish the fact that the only way to improve the overall quality of a breed is to publicly identify the superior animals that they may be used in breeding programs.

'

Its one way....but hopefully you don't need a title to tell you that you are looking at a good dog. One thing I have noticed over the years is that for some folks an FC seems to take away the need to think. I built my breeding at present on a dog that doesn't have the highest "scores" that was owned by a nice guy that didn't have a clue as a trainer (a great hunter!!). Best decision I ever made...spent two days with the dog and no one had to tell me that this was a great dog.

There are LOTS of dogs like that. Titles sell dogs....they aren't the only way to make good dogs. Have the cool aid tested....you're nearing a lethal dose.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:30 am

JKP wrote:
The simple fact that not every exemplar dog sees the opportunity to be publicly recognized for such says nothing to diminish the fact that the only way to improve the overall quality of a breed is to publicly identify the superior animals that they may be used in breeding programs.
'

Its one way....but hopefully you don't need a title to tell you that you are looking at a good dog. One thing I have noticed over the years is that for some folks an FC seems to take away the need to think. I built my breeding at present on a dog that doesn't have the highest "scores" that was owned by a nice guy that didn't have a clue as a trainer (a great hunter!!). Best decision I ever made...spent two days with the dog and no one had to tell me that this was a great dog.

There are LOTS of dogs like that. Titles sell dogs....they aren't the only way to make good dogs. Have the cool aid tested....you're nearing a lethal dose.

:roll: Good dogs exist everywhere but you have overdosed on your own self importance. Isolated breedings within a closed system does very little to improve the overall quality of a breed.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:24 am

I think that everyone is way over thinking this....its economics and supply&demand plain and simple. It costs a fair amount of time and money to field trial...especially HB trials, period. The dog also has to have what it takes and has to have a higher level of training to compete in trials compared to hunting...that takes more time.
As far as breeds, it obviously varies regionally but the price on average for a good GSP, EP or Setter is going to be lower then the price of say a good Boykins, a good Griffon or a Pudelpointer because there is a heck of a lot more of the first mentioned....
In my area (pacific Northwest) the versatile breeds really seem to be exploding in popularity. This is still GSP and Lab country first and foremost. But there are alot more Wirehairs, Drahthaars, pudelpointers and griffons every year that i see. In my mind locally this stems from someone only being able to afford and or only wanting one dog to hunt both waterfowl and upland birds and wanting a pointer to do it. I think these people gravitate towards NAVDHA or european bred dogs as that is testing that matches up the best with what they are looking for.

I think that marketing has to be playing a part in this as well, Breeders that market there dogs as great family pets that excel in both waterfowl hunting and upland hunting and have the testing behind there dogs to back it up appeal to the average hunter here....

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:38 pm

JKP wrote: Now PLEASE...I understand...and know that I can take any well adjusted, well bred FT dog and make a good foot hunting dog out of it.

I'm sorry...but no you can't. I have seen too many well bred dogs that don't even come close to making birddogs. You would be suprised

.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Ron R wrote:
JKP wrote: Now PLEASE...I understand...and know that I can take any well adjusted, well bred FT dog and make a good foot hunting dog out of it.
I'm sorry...but no you can't. I have seen too many well bred dogs that don't even come close to making birddogs. You would be suprised .

Some people can do VIRTUALLY anything. Funny how breeding for one thing or another can turn on you. I have a powerbred trial dog who sometimes outruns his nose and brain on throwdown birds. However, let him get a highheaded whiff of a feral pig, and game on.

I think it's sometimes harder to sell puppies because people ten years and five generations from a foundation name bank on that reputation without realizing that the market is made up of people who haven't a clue what the name of a long gone dog once meant.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:56 pm

You are still relying on some body elses opinion to tell you how good your dog or anything else in a judge event is. if you have a dog you really like would you not breed her base only on the fact that she couldn't get her FC for something like maybe a low tail. Or couldn't get a AFC because she never got a first place but had plenty of points
Telling me I don't know a good dog if I haven't been to a trial kind of equates with telling me I don't know a good looking woman unless i've been to a beauty pageant. Cj