Wild Birds Holding For Pointing Dogs - A Misconception

[BigShooter]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs says your rangy pointing dog is busting birds out of his/her gun range. Is he/she absolutely correct? Will all species of wild birds hold perfectly in any type of cover & weather conditions, at any point during a season, regardless of whether they've been hunted before or not? Is it always just a matter of the dog's skills, experience & training?

[jetjockey]

Nope. Some will hold, some won't. Especially in the late season. What Johny Springer fan doesn't realize is that birds aren't holding to be flushed either. Some hold, and some run out from under them without them ever knowing. Now, as far as pointing dogs go, it does take a lot of wild birds for pointing dogs to learn not to bump birds and learn how to hold them. But even the seasoned wild bird dog (especially running birds like pheasants) will have birds flush or run out from under them. The great dogs will learn how to pin a fair amount of wild birds though. BTW. If I had to pick one single breed of dog to hunt wild pheasants, it would be a good springer. But early season, I'd still take a well seasoned pointing dog.

[slistoe]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs says your rangy pointing dog is busting birds out of his/her gun range. Is he/she absolutely correct?

I dunno. Did he or you see the dog bust up birds? If you see the dog busting birds then the simple answer would be yes.

It takes time and repetitions for a dog to learn to handle its birds. Till then you will see mistakes being made at all different kind of ranges. If you wait till hunting season to give your young dog the experience on birds then you will have to make sure you are not hunting with someone who views every flown bird as a "missed opportunity".

[BigShooter]

Have you seen dogs that are 100% honest on birds within say about 250 yards & you question whether they are intermittantly dishonest in cover at more extreme distances where they know they can't be seen by the handler/hunter?

[ACooper]

As you well know, there are birds at times that even the best/most experienced dogs cannot handle, because the birds wont hold for whatever reason. This happens early, late, on cold days, on warm days, windy days and calm days.

[SCT]

On cold windy days later in the season the birds (sage grouse and others) will hang on the wind blown ridges for food and security, they won't hold for any dog. Even early they have no problem getting up and walking right out from under the dogs nose (sage grouse).

[birddogger]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs says your rangy pointing dog is busting birds out of his/her gun range. Is he/she absolutely correct? Will all species of wild birds hold perfectly in any type of cover & weather conditions, at any point during a season, regardless of whether they've been hunted before or not? Is it always just a matter of the dog's skills, experience & training?

Of course not! Sometimes the birds simply will not hold.

[tommyboy72]

Where I live and in my limited experience, wild pheasant hold great in natural CRP grass that is at least knee to waist high on me ( I am 6'3") but just will not hold in cut crop fields or fields with rows and I have found more quail out in the open in shin high grass or near yucca or mesquite bushes bordering open areas than I ever have in plum thickets or tree lines or down on wooded river bottoms. As far as time of day and conditions go, cold windy days seem to cause the quail to covey up for warmth especially first thing in morning i.e. before 9 am and evening i.e. after 3 pm. Pheasant seem to hold better for points on calm but cold days especially after a light snow. Wind gets them really skittish and they don't like to sit for a point and out here it is best to catch them in the CRP right at daylight before 9 am or later in the afternoon between 11 am and 3 pm catching them after they get back from feeding in the crop fields in the morning and before they go out to eat again before bedding in the evening. Late season birds are always a challenge especially pheasant that have been shot at a few times. An experienced dog helps tons especially one that knows not to push birds. Both my adult dogs are great on pheasant but my male still likes to push quail a bit too much. We are working on that. He is only 2 years old so he will pick it up sooner rather than later I hope. The type of birds you are hunting I am sure has a lot to do with it too. Pheasant give off more scent than bobwhite quail who give off more scent than blue quail and older birds give off more scent than younger birds. Many different factors to consider.

[JIM K]

this is why a FLUSHING dog without bell or beeper CAN get you grouse when pointer cant.
flusher gets bird up before they run.

grouse are getting very pressured today. slam car door, ring bell and they are out of there.

[slistoe]

Have you seen dogs that are 100% honest on birds within say about 250 yards & you question whether they are intermittantly dishonest in cover at more extreme distances where they know they can't be seen by the handler/hunter?

Certainly I have seen dishonest dogs. Even owned a few. What evidence does your flushing dog buddy have that your dog is dishonest?

[Sharon]

And some do hold. I'm always impressed a when a dog is called as "out of judgement" and an hour later you finally find him still on point. Amazing bird; amazing dog.

[Ms. Cage]

this is why a FLUSHING dog without bell or beeper CAN get you grouse when pointer cant.
flusher gets bird up before they run.

Or the bird flushes wild and the flushing dog gets credit for the flush. Seen that many times.

[BigShooter]

Have you seen dogs that are 100% honest on birds within say about 250 yards & you question whether they are intermittantly dishonest in cover at more extreme distances where they know they can't be seen by the handler/hunter?

Certainly I have seen dishonest dogs. Even owned a few. What evidence does your flushing dog buddy have that your dog is dishonest?

To keep this "what if" scenario going: I'll say the dog is let out of the truck, starts working, obviously catches scent & makes a bee line down a line of cover (like an adjacent tree or fence line). 350 or 400 hundred yards away, in the direction the dog was headed, at the end of the line of cover --- birds are seen taking off. Under the same scenario, at other times the dog is found on point about a twenty minute walk from where the hunters were when the dog took off.
Pretty tough to tell if the dog is intermittantly dishonest as no one has ever actually seen the dog bust a bird.

[birddogger]

All of these posts are correct but I understood the question to be, "is it ALWAYS the dog's fault for birds flushing ahead of time or will ALL wild birds hold under ANY CONDITION if the dog is doing his job correctly?" And if I am understanding right, the correct answer is absolutely not. Sure, sometimes the dog may be dishonest or careless and be bumping birds when it may seem that the birds are flushing wild, but anybody with any experience at all with wild bird hunting knows that there are times when any species are, at times very unpredictable, and will not cooperate, regardless of the dog work.

Charlie

[slistoe]

Firstly, intermittently dishonest is rather disengenuous. The dog is honest .... or he is not. If the dog is honest and the birds get up wild on him despite his best efforts to get them pinned he will still be standing there when you walk up (unless you release him prior to walking up there).

Some dogs have a knack of containing pheasants at the end of a hedgerow and others never figure it out. Some dogs you can let run to the end of the hedge and others need to know whoa. Regardless of the ability of the dog some birds just absolutely refuse to cooperate. And if the buddy with the flusher intimates that all birds thus seen would have been gunned over his dog he is delusional.

A twenty minute walk is the best part of a full mile. That kind of range should send any flushing dog aficionado into fits.

[DGFavor]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs

Who has buddies that own flushing dogs??

https://www.vimeo.com/36873458

https://www.vimeo.com/28843006

https://www.vimeo.com/18415366

https://www.vimeo.com/14687707

[BigShooter]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs

Who has buddies that own flushing dogs??

Let's just say he probably wouldn't have been running his labs off of a horse.

[JKP]

Firstly, intermittently dishonest is rather disengenuous. The dog is honest .... or he is not.

Finally someone said it. Honest dogs are honest regardless of distance. One of the big reasons I have problems with some testing formats is that dogs never really get beyond the immediate sphere of influence of the handler. I think these dogs are still unproven as far as honesty.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

WOW! JKP I think that's kinda funny coming from some one that's always telling the people with big running dogs & FT dogs that there wrong & NO ONE needs that kinda dog!!

[PntrRookie]

Have you seen dogs that are 100% honest on birds within say about 250 yards & you question whether they are intermittantly dishonest in cover at more extreme distances where they know they can't be seen by the handler/hunter?

Ahhhhhhh...I resemble that remark - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - >

It is the rebel in her!

[Birddog3412]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs says your rangy pointing dog is busting birds out of his/her gun range. Is he/she absolutely correct? Will all species of wild birds hold perfectly in any type of cover & weather conditions, at any point during a season, regardless of whether they've been hunted before or not? Is it always just a matter of the dog's skills, experience & training?

Any idiot that believes that has never hunted wild pheasants in South Dakota the week before Christmas. Those bird will flush if they hear you unzipping your pants to take a leak!

[bb560m]

Your buddy who has always owned flushing dogs says your rangy pointing dog is busting birds out of his/her gun range. Is he/she absolutely correct? Will all species of wild birds hold perfectly in any type of cover & weather conditions, at any point during a season, regardless of whether they've been hunted before or not? Is it always just a matter of the dog's skills, experience & training?

Any idiot that believes that has never hunted wild pheasants in South Dakota the week before Christmas. Those bird will flush if they hear you unzipping your pants to take a leak!

Come January anywhere I don't think a pheasant is gonna be holding except in extreme weather conditions (snow + lots of wind). Even then you better be dead silent.

[JKP]

WOW! JKP I think that's kinda funny coming from some one that's always telling the people with big running dogs & FT dogs that there wrong & NO ONE needs that kinda dog!!

Never said FT is wrong...do have a problem when folks represent it as the be-all and end-all. If you go back through my posts, you will see where I have said repeatedly that we should thank the folks who are willing to take on that time and expense...and that breeds profit from FT genetic input. We part ways when folks declare its the only way to a good hunting dog or that all FC are created equal...that run and point means a dog can do anything from big water geese to dealing blackjack (being facetious here). Its just another game....and only the results....not how you got there. We all breed dogs...not titles. What % of FC are breeding dogs? make a serious contribution? Why? because even after the titles, we pick through to find the good ones after listening to the "back story". There are a ton of VGP 1 dogs....then I sift through to learn the "rest of the story".

I am just as critical of my own game....it has its weaknesses too....and one of them is thinking that a NAVHDA dog (for example) that never gets out from under the gun can be termed an honest dog. An honest dog is one you FIND repeatedly on point...walk past without hacking and kill birds (or in my case rabbit/hare sometimes ). The rest IMO are not yet proven as honest dogs. One of the reasons I was disappointed with MH stakes was the same reason....dogs held tightly on the back course and then tight under observation in a bird field (could be different elsewhere). Put birds on 300 acres and let the dogs go. I think when we up the bar, we get more. Understand if folks don't agree...but a dog I can hit with a stone (not literally) or correct/hack with voice is under my influence....and knows it.

Now before Slistoe starts reading all kinds of assumptions and insults into my remarks...there ARE good NAVHDA dogs...I am commenting on honesty as it relates to holding birds (the FT definition )

[ACooper]

Late season birds hold for point also, just like early season birds do. Are they spookier? Sure they are. We still shoot several over points, along with wild flushes.

IMO a hard charging flushing dog is the ticket for pheasants if you are just concerned about production. Pointing dogs are more fun.

[PntrRookie]

...a hard charging flushing dog is the ticket for pheasants if you are just concerned about production. Pointing dogs are more fun.

Luv it! And agree

[slistoe]

Late season birds hold for point also, just like early season birds do. Are they spookier? Sure they are. We still shoot several over points, along with wild flushes.

IMO a hard charging flushing dog is the ticket for pheasants if you are just concerned about production. Pointing dogs are more fun.

There is the ticket alright.

[Grange]

Late season birds hold for point also, just like early season birds do. Are they spookier? Sure they are. We still shoot several over points, along with wild flushes.

IMO a hard charging flushing dog is the ticket for pheasants if you are just concerned about production. Pointing dogs are more fun.

That has been my experience hunting late season pheasant in both WI and SD. It's also been my experience that it is the exact opposite for ruffed grouse.

[Grange]

this is why a FLUSHING dog without bell or beeper CAN get you grouse when pointer cant.
flusher gets bird up before they run.

grouse are getting very pressured today. slam car door, ring bell and they are out of there.

Wow, my experience is basically the exact opposite. I've got both and the pointing dog almost always out finds the flusher and my flusher is no novice on grouse.

[Mountaineer]

this is why a FLUSHING dog without bell or beeper CAN get you grouse when pointer cant.
flusher gets bird up before they run.

grouse are getting very pressured today. slam car door, ring bell and they are out of there.

Wow, my experience is basically the exact opposite. I've got both and the pointing dog almost always out finds the flusher and my flusher is no novice on grouse.

X12 on "opposite" re noise and flushing grouse.
Granted, grouse and wc can trot but the reason is mostly related to cover.

Flushers tho, especially a fast moving lab, will flight a bunch of grouse before the gun...the point tho is where this occurs.
In the great lake states? then yes....in the appalachians?, then no way, jose.
Ruffed grouse vary.

[JIM K]

All of these posts are correct but I understood the question to be, "is it ALWAYS the dog's fault for birds flushing ahead of time or will ALL wild birds hold under ANY CONDITION if the dog is doing his job correctly?" And if I am understanding right, the correct answer is absolutely not. Sure, sometimes the dog may be dishonest or careless and be bumping birds when it may seem that the birds are flushing wild, but anybody with any experience at all with wild bird hunting knows that there are times when any species are, at times very unpredictable, and will not cooperate, regardless of the dog work.

Charlie

today most of old timers are gone that used to shoot the hawks/owls.
pressure on grouse is more than i have ever seen in 46 yrs.hunters and others.
you are right. a LOT of grouse after first week are very spooky.will flush when your car door closes.

[JIM K]

this is why a FLUSHING dog without bell or beeper CAN get you grouse when pointer cant.
flusher gets bird up before they run.

grouse are getting very pressured today. slam car door, ring bell and they are out of there.

Wow, my experience is basically the exact opposite. I've got both and the pointing dog almost always out finds the flusher and my flusher is no novice on grouse.

X12 on "opposite" re noise and flushing grouse.
Granted, grouse and wc can trot but the reason is mostly related to cover.

Flushers tho, especially a fast moving lab, will flight a bunch of grouse before the gun...the point tho is where this occurs.
In the great lake states? then yes....in the appalachians?, then no way, jose.
Ruffed grouse vary.

its like hunting pheasants.every year i see more pheasants flushed by SPRINGERS than any dog i have seen.
why, because they cover ground quick and FLUSH bird into air.i see a lot at the preesrves i attend weekly and most are great bird dogs.

[Mountaineer]

...its like hunting pheasants.every year i see more pheasants flushed by SPRINGERS than any dog i have seen.
why, because they cover ground quick and FLUSH bird into air.i see a lot at the preesrves i attend weekly and most are great bird dogs.

Preserves, ok...not sure tho, I have not been on a Shooting Preserve in about 8-9 years.
But I do expect that it would take a flusher to get some Preserve birds airborne....some P birds can be pretty loggy.

Any startled bird is likely to flush at a noise, especially if they cover they are in does not afford them security or a protected back door...same as always.
Some, of course, will walk out that back door.
For grouse, cover is the driver..along with age of the bird...and, indeed and to a degree pressure.
But cover leads the list of reasons for go, no.

I will say that woodcock do appear to trundle off more than they use to.....however grouse, not as a rule and exceptions do not make the rule....at least in my view since '64'.
Could their be regional or local differences?...surely...again, watch the generalities and raising an occurence to a rule.

[BigShooter]

If you couldn't see a pointing dog bust the bird(s) - you have no way certain of knowing or proving the dog busted the bird(s).

On the other hand - flushers are perfect in this regard - they always bust the birds!

It's thus much easier to attempt to criticize lack of perfection in pointing dogs, especially when they've ranged out of sight.

[SetterNut]

When hunting with a flushing dog do you count the birds that blow out the end of the field 100 yards in front of the dog, I don't think so. and you don't count it agaist the pointing dog either.

Both types of dogs (pointing and flushing) have thier strengths.

I hope that you enjoy your choice of dog to hunt with, I sure enjoy hunting with my pointing dogs.

DGFavor, that was outstanding, thnks for posting. You have some outstanding dog, and live in some country that I hope to hunt my dogs in some day.

[birddogger]

When hunting with a flushing dog do you count the birds that blow out the end of the field 100 yards in front of the dog, I don't think so. and you don't count it agaist the pointing dog either.

And that is my point exactly!

Charlie

[BigShooter]

When hunting with a flushing dog do you count the birds that blow out the end of the field 100 yards in front of the dog, I don't think so. and you don't count it agaist the pointing dog either.

And that is my point exactly!

Charlie

That's just great but it doesn't stop your buddy with a retriever, who due to the cover can't see how close or far your pointing dog is to the birds that blow out way downfield, from claiming your pointing dog just blew them out.

[birddogger]

You may know your dog is honest and won't take birds out, but I don't know how you convince your buddy of that when all he sees is birds taking to the air or the sound of wings flapping. I guess I was confused because I didn't realize that was the original question. The way I read it, I thought the question was would birds always hold if the dog handled them correctly.

Charlie

[BigShooter]

Charlie, It was kind of a two part hypothetical to flush out the points:

1. If you can't see it you don't know if it happened. The old "if a tree falls in a forest but no one is there to hear it ...."
2. For a whole variety of reasons (weather, cover, previous pressure, etc.) wild birds won't always hold even for seasoned gun dogs that typically handle birds well. In my experience this is especially true with birds already running away pell mell to avoid noise or pressure.
3. Died in the wool retriever owners with little to no pointing dog experience aren't necessarily to whom one should look for judging the performance of pointing dogs.

JMO

[Elkhunter]

I hunt chukars the entire season and I usually have no problems getting birds pointed at anytime during the year. Some times are tougher than others, but can usually get er done.

[birddogger]

Charlie, It was kind of a two part hypothetical to flush out the points:

1. If you can't see it you don't know if it happened. The old "if a tree falls in a forest but no one is there to hear it ...."
2. For a whole variety of reasons (weather, cover, previous pressure, etc.) wild birds won't always hold even for seasoned gun dogs that typically handle birds well. In my experience this is especially true with birds already running away pell mell to avoid noise or pressure.
3. Died in the wool retriever owners with little to no pointing dog experience aren't necessarily to whom one should look for judging the performance of pointing dogs.

JMO

Very true.
Charlie

[DGFavor]

After reading this, I'm getting the impression some people go hunt for pheasants on purpose. Fascinating.

DGFavor, that was outstanding, thnks for posting. You have some outstanding dog

Don't let me fool ya' - even I can catch 'em on video doing it right now and then...if I could know when to be ready and catch 'em on video taking birds out and chasing 'em I'd probably have a whole lot more to post!!

[birddogger]

I really admire humble.

Charlie

[Troy08er]

I agree with Elkhunter on the chukars, I also chase those valley quail,which usually will be in bigger coveys than chukar (50-200) birds.On the valleys usually you'll have one bird break(wild flush) causing most of the covey to follow.After the break theyl'll usually hold really tight. After the wild flush most of the time you'll have stragglers holding tight.

Favor, thanks for the videos and picture. I'm always look forward to check them out. How's that IB pointer doing?

[SetterNut]

After reading this, I'm getting the impression some people go hunt for pheasants on purpose. Fascinating.

DGFavor, that was outstanding, thnks for posting. You have some outstanding dog

Don't let me fool ya' - even I can catch 'em on video doing it right now and then...if I could know when to be ready and catch 'em on video taking birds out and chasing 'em I'd probably have a whole lot more to post!!

Well, we don't need to air all the dirty laundy now do we
But you had a some pretty good dog work there. I would kill to have a place like that to work dogs on wild birds. Our cover is much thicker and taller here, and you can't see much of what is going on, compared to what you could see in your video.

[bonasa]

Hi Mark. I believe it is cover related, at least back east. I have flusher friends that can't bear it to see (hear) a pointer be out of sight and the only life line you have is a bell and whistle. I have had my pointers pin grouse no problem even in late season and the bonus March training we have before they nest in April. A bird in a blow down amidst old timber beech will not hold as tight as a bird in new growth birch with hemlock and white pine saplings. Sometimes the bird is just spooky, not the dog nor birds fault. The biggest reason for wild flushes that could be misconstrued for a bird the dog "busted" is a low pitch noises. Either car doors and most of all human voices. If I can hear the bell I can get to them before the bird goes >200, again depending on cover they usually are less than 30 seconds away which can range from 30-200 yards. Its almost as if they know how fast I can move when motivated by a point...who understands whom best?

[tfbirddog2]

I shoot pointed wild birds all the time! You just have to know how to hunt the cover your in and pay attention to your condition(weather,crp,crop,snow on the ground ect..) Conditions have a lot to do with it pionters or flushers it doesnt matter, Heck you got to consider if you have blockers too.

[BigShooter]

I really admire humble.
Charlie

"Blessed are they who see beautiful things in humble places where other people see nothing."
Camille Pissarro