Conformation, Endurance & Trial Misconceptions

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:02 pm

A Very Interesting Editorial n Endurance, Conformation and Trial Dogs.

http://www.wildapplekennel.blogspot.com ... -when.html

I found this interesting too:
('Most notable among them is the National Championship at Ames Plantation where the braces are three hours long.
But even that is deceptive as only 4 of the 41 dogs entered finished the three hours this past year. Most dogs are picked up prior to the two hour mark.')

Wednesday, June 6, 2012
The Fallacy of the Hour Dog: An Editorial

(This editorial appeared in the Summer 2007 issue of Field Trial Magazine and since that time a small group in Pennsylvania has turned the Armstrong Grouse Classic into a two hour endurance stake which is a good idea that has received very little support.)

Last winter in Texas we put down a brace of derbies. Both were females that run to the front, crack their tails, and have speed to spare. However, they have some conformational differences that were noticeable on the line and, as the workout went on, became pointed. Dog one is the epitome of style — fine boned, long legs, short coupled, high straight tail. Dog two is nicely put together as well, but has a little more bone mass, a little shorter leg, and has a bigger chest.

On this day, they broke away and raced off. After this initial exuberance, they came back in and began to hunt to the front. The differences in their gaits became obvious as we watched and talked about them. Dog one popped with each stride as her long front legs pulled her forward and her hind end came up. She looked happy and light on her feet as she bounded across the prairie. Dog two flowed effortlessly with her back staying almost level as she powered herself over the countryside pushing and pulling evenly with both ends.

For the first 30 minutes, both dogs maintained their pace and it was exciting to watch them. But then the differences in their conformation began to take their toll. Dog one began to slow and shorten at about the 45 minute mark. Dog two continued on effortlessly. At about 50 minutes we reached a windmill with its tank full of cool, clear water. Both dogs jumped in the tank. Dog two drank sparingly and was the first one out. Dog one wallowed in the water and had to be called out as we made the turn to head back toward the truck. Dog one picked up for a few moments but was soon running at a slow lope at relatively close range. Dog two continued where she had left off, stretching out to the front going to all the right spots as her mind and body remained sharp.

At an hour and 15 minutes, dog one was barely trotting and would continue that way until we got back to the truck. Dog two finished going away at the same fast, effortless pace she had maintained for almost two hours. Both dogs had had about the same amount of work during the winter, ate the same food, and were even in adjoining kennels, so their difference in endurance cannot be explained by extraneous factors.

On the Texas prairie the relationship between gate and endurance becomes
obvious.

Dog one will ultimately be able to compete at the championship level. Any pro worth his or her training fees could build her up some, stop and water her a couple of times, and if necessary hide her for 5 or 10 minutes at the end of the hour. And most likely, considering what a lot of judges look for today, her style on the ground and point could put her in the money. Dog two might have a harder time earning the check because she flows with deceptive ease rather than having that merry hop and pop of her kennelmate and unfortunately far too few trials require a dog to show it has endurance beyond an hour.

And there’s the rub.
With so few endurance stakes anymore, most field trialers only care about a dog that will go an hour. With an hour as the bar, many seem to be breeding dogs that, like dog one above, look good doing it but can’t last beyond the hour and many can’t make that without help.

There used to be more endurance stakes. The Grand National Grouse Championship is a prime example. When it was first run in November 1943, the 22 setters and 4 pointers all ran an hour in the first series. Then four dogs were called back for a mandatory two hour second series before Cavier (pointer male) was named the first Grand National Grouse Champion.

This practice continued through the 1957 running at Marienville, Pennsylvania when the judges were unable to come up with a suitable champion with bird work even after two of the four dogs in the two hour second series were called back to run a third time.
The following year, the second series was reduced to an hour and discontinued completely in 1959. Since then no grouse dog has ever been asked to run for more than an hour, and, with the exception of the Invitational and a rare callback, never more than once to win a title.

On the horseback circuits, there are still a handful of stakes where dogs are required to go more than an hour.
Most notable among them is the National Championship at Ames Plantation where the braces are three hours long. But even that is deceptive as only 4 of the 41 dogs entered finished the three hours this past year. Most dogs are picked up prior to the two hour mark. Now, it is obvious from the report that the handlers knew their dogs weren’t making a bid when they threw in the towel. At the same time, the conventional wisdom is that going three hours is so grueling that you have to “save” your dog if it’s not making a bid.

There are many reasons for the lack of endurance trials.
The time involved in running them is probably paramount. It takes two weeks to run the 41 dogs in the National Championship. The Georgia Championship this year drew 136 dogs and some must have wondered why they couldn’t have a shorter qualifying series to whittle down the pack. Also, the added time it takes to condition dogs for an endurance stake is a deterrent for many pros. There is no easy solution, but we should approach the idea of the hour dog with a great deal of trepidation before we breed down to the point where an hour dog is hard to find.

Posted by Wild Apple Kennel

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:05 pm

That's really something. I know author is pretty renowned, but given that this isn't in a a publication like PDJ, I wonder how much of it is subjective or if anyone here is going to dispute it. This could get interesting.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:21 pm

good article and excellent observations by the writer. This really goes hand in hand with many of our earlier discussions.
Fuzz

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:50 pm

It would be interesting to compare the confirmations of all 41 dogs that ran at Ames to see if this data would go along with this authors writings. No doubt an effortless gait will go the distance over one more like a see-saw.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:54 pm

If a handler has a few dogs to run, they aren't going to leave one down that's not making money. You can look at the brace reports and see when the bar is set at Ames. After that, why burn the horseflesh?

Brittguy · Post by **Brittguy** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:57 pm

A lot of dogs are picked up at Ames not because they couldn't finish in an acceptable manner but because the handler knows he does not have a winning performance and decides not to just keep a dog down for the total 3 hrs. Judges should appreciate this attitude.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:59 pm

Exactly most the dogs picked up are not picked up because they can't run for the 3 hrs.Infractions or not beating the top dog.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:58 pm

Not surprisngly, or unintentionally, I think the point being missed is that many trial dogs being bred today for 'style,' have a snappy run that looks scintillating, but its not necessarily an easy or 'lazy' go all day gait, and it hinders them for half day or all day hunting..

Ive owned such dogs, they were trial bred.

Best 30 minute dogs around, but not the best hunting dogs.

For the first 30 minutes, both dogs maintained their pace and it was exciting to watch them.
But then the differences in their conformation began to take their toll. Dog one began to slow and shorten at about the 45 minute mark. Dog two continued on effortlessly.

At about 50 minutes we reached a windmill with its tank full of cool, clear water. Both dogs jumped in the tank. Dog two drank sparingly and was the first one out.
Dog one wallowed in the water and had to be called out as we made the turn to head back toward the truck. Dog one picked up for a few moments but was soon running at a slow lope at relatively close range.
Dog two continued where she had left off, stretching out to the front going to all the right spots as her mind and body remained sharp.

At an hour and 15 minutes, dog one was barely trotting and would continue that way until we got back to the truck. Dog two finished going away at the same fast, effortless pace she had maintained for almost two hours.
Both dogs had had about the same amount of work during the winter, ate the same food, and were even in adjoining kennels, so their difference in endurance cannot be explained by extraneous factors.

On the Texas prairie the relationship between gate and endurance becomes
obvious.
Dog one will ultimately be able to compete at the championship level.
Any pro worth his or her training fees could build her up some, stop and water her a couple of times, and if necessary hide her for 5 or 10 minutes at the end of the hour.
And most likely, considering what a lot of judges look for today, her style on the ground and point could put her in the money.
Dog two might have a harder time earning the check because she flows with deceptive ease rather than having that merry hop and pop of her kennelmate and unfortunately far too few trials require a dog to show it has endurance beyond an hour.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:01 pm

On the Texas prairie the relationship between gate and endurance becomes
obvious.

All I can add is this....a GATE is something you shut to keep the horses in. GAIT is manner of locomotion.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:03 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
On the Texas prairie the relationship between gate and endurance becomes
obvious.
All I can add is this....a GATE is something you shut to keep the horses in. GAIT is manner of locomotion.

The grammar Bolsheviks...Nothing gets past them.

I didnt edit, because it wast penned by me, but thanks all the same.

My English teacher thanks you as do my eyes.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:05 pm

BillThomas wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
On the Texas prairie the relationship between gate and endurance becomes
obvious.
All I can add is this....a GATE is something you shut to keep the horses in. GAIT is manner of locomotion.
The grammar Bolsheviks...Nothing gets past them.

I didnt edit, because it wast penned by me, but thanks all the same.

My English teacher thanks you as do my eyes.

No worries Bill..I found it funny as I was at a FT last fall when one of the pros said, "Both those judges think gait is something you close in the pasture."

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:58 pm

Dogs that hunt all day learn to pace themselves & not burn out in a couple hrs.A half hr trial dog does not always make an hr or 3 hr trial dog some can do all including hunt all day but I think it comes from experience as well as conditioning to do what is at hand.When I was physically able to hunt all day & only owned one or two dogs I never owned one that didn't learn to pace it's self for an all day hunt once in condition for it.JMO

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:05 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Dogs that hunt all day learn to pace themselves & not burn out in a couple hrs.A half hr trial dog does not always make an hr or 3 hr trial dog some can do all including hunt all day but I think it comes from experience as well as conditioning to do what is at hand.When I was physically able to hunt all day & only owned one or two dogs I never owned one that didn't learn to pace it's self for an all day hunt once in condition for it.JMO

I did.
Been there, done that.

You cant change genetics. Nor conformation.
And thats the very premise of this article, which seems youre trying hard to gloss over.??

My trial bred Dog wore itself out inside an hour, every time.
Ran like the wind and looked good, even found some birds, but it wasnt what I was looking for
to hunt for extended periods.
Not made for it, or bred for it is my guess.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:56 pm

No you can't change genectics or conformation & that is my point ,I have not owned a dog that wasn't from FT bred lines some more then others.Most of the the hunting dogs I know of come from FT bred lines but not all.The first of the hunting season my dogs might have struggled to make it all day but after a week or 2 of hunting most every day for most of the day they handled it with ease.I think some of that is also cooler temps after the first couple weeks plus learning to pace themselves.Not arguing just stating my observations with my own dogs.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:06 pm

I do not have, nor have I ever owned a dog that could hold the pace in an AF Championship stake for an hour.
I have hunted with a number of different folks whose dogs never broke into high gear. To a man they would talk about "endurance" and such when out hunting with them as I would rotate my dogs every two hours on the ground. I would just shrug off the comments because really it made little difference. I knew what my dogs were capable of and why I was changing them out - I didn't expect them to understand or care. But when it came time to make an extended loop where the dogs were on the ground for 4 or 5 hours continuous in the heat of September and we would head back to the truck with the dogs "dog tired", their dogs were walking behind us and mine were alternating between a trot and a lope trying to make a hunt to the front. For three different fellows that were very vocal about the "endurance" aspect of their dogs instead of the dash and flash of mine, I never heard another word about it after one instance for each.
Most folks simply have absolutely no idea what it takes in a dog to maintain an hour in front of a horse in competition.
This is not to mean that some dogs simply outrun and outpace others, but if a dog can make it an hour in horseback competition he will certainly out endure most hunting dogs that are on the ground anywhere.
The reference to Ames is a red herring in this context.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:21 pm

I'd consider all the pointers I've had to be from field trial lines and I know they are good to hunt hard way more than an hour. I hunt them out of the truck a lot of the time and from my experience 2-3 hours was very doable. I might gather them in to go to a different area a short distance away, but fifteen minutes later they're back out there running hard trying to find birds. Maybe a dog with a better conformation would run twice as long, but I think conditioning might play a bigger part. I don't know, but a comparison between two dogs is basically worthless data as far as any real science is concerned. It is a GREAT TOPIC to study and would be very valuable information if more data was collected, even if it was subjective to a point. Just my opinion.

Steve

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:49 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:No you can't change genectics or conformation & that is my point ,I have not owned a dog that wasn't from FT bred lines some more then others.Most of the the hunting dogs I know of come from FT bred lines but not all.The first of the hunting season my dogs might have struggled to make it all day but after a week or 2 of hunting most every day for most of the day they handled it with ease.I think some of that is also cooler temps after the first couple weeks plus learning to pace themselves.Not arguing just stating my observations with my own dogs.

Gait is genetic while 90% of endurance is training. All day dogs are made and not bred.

Ezzy

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:02 pm

it is genetic while 90% of endurance is training. All day dogs are made and not bred.

Sorry this one I just can't agree with. I've tried like heck to condition some dogs for an hour, they simply couldn't do it. Others did it easy. Why???? It wasnt' because of the conditioning effort.... why can some guys do a marathon and other are great sprinters? Muscle mass, lung capacity, etc., etc. Why can a greyhound outsprint almost all other breeds, but only last a short distance? Conditioning? If they were put into harness and roaded for an hour, would it change what they can do?

I do believe so much has to do with ease of movement... a chugger is going to wear down quicker then a floater!
Fuzz

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:16 am

I've tried like heck to condition some dogs for an hour, they simply couldn't do it. Others did it easy. Why????
It wasnt' because of the conditioning effort.... why can some guys do a marathon and other are great sprinters?
Muscle mass, lung capacity, etc., etc.

Why can a greyhound outsprint almost all other breeds, but only last a short distance? Conditioning? If they were put into harness and roaded for an hour, would it change what they can do?

I do believe so much has to do with ease of movement... a chugger is going to wear down quicker then a floater!

Well Put !!!

Some times, even the obvious escapes reality for many.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:49 am

I have a male (GSP) not a trial dog at all. BUT he has this super easy gait. He can run 100 yards in like 2 seconds and looks like he is not even trying hard. He works at about 100- 150 yards but he just glides across the field from 9'oclock to 3 o'clock and back in front like it's a cake walk. My husband always griped about him when he hunted him alone. Said he looked like he was not pushing hard. He has lovely stylish points and finds birds but he said when he was guiding, he wanted a springy snappy dog that looked like they were working hard.

But when you hunt him in a brace you see how he out runs, out finds, and covers the whole field as easy as you please. The other dogs are panting and zipping, and He just keeps that fast easy pace the whole time, no need to switch dogs, and he is usually way out front of the little snappy dogs my husband prefers. My point is, as a guide he prefers the dogs that look like they have to work, simply because they show the heart to keep trying. And not the dog that runs like it was breathing. Always annoyed me personally :roll:

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:05 am

And while the grammer police are out, ConFORmation (as applied to a dog) is how well a dog conforms to a particular standard. ConFIRmation is to establish the truth or validity of something, to validate it. You could confirm a correct conformation though... I digress... sorry...

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:25 pm

There are lots of misconceptions out there.

Someone mentioned that most hunters have absolutely no clue how much effort it takes for a dog to hunt at a shooting dog pace in front of a horse for an hour, espeically in warmer weather. That is absolutely true in my opinion.

Someone mentioned that some dogs seem not to be working hard, but when put in a brace, they outrun and outlast the other dog without making it look like they are even trying. That does happen, particularly with dogs that are light on their feet, and on the parger side, physically. The bigger dog has a MUCH longer stride and can run farther and longer with less effort than the smaller dog. that is just the way it is. The smaller dog that has tons of snap, crackle and pop and has incredible footspeed might look like it is goig 100 MPH but the bigger dog with the easy, reaching gait will roll past that fast footed dog. It is kinda like the Porsche and the Corvette. Over the quarter mile and for the sprint, the "vette will come out of the hole and make the Porsche look slow. But after a mile or two the Porsche will keep on comin' and just roll on by.

When you see a 70 pound DD going through the field you think the dog is really covering some ground. But when you brace that DD with a 65 pound pointer or setter, the DD often looks like it is laboring and the setter or pointer is just cruising along. That is because the are built differently and gaited differently. The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.

There are many breeds of dogs that have been bred for the ability to hunt for extended periods. Not so many have been bred for both. There are reasons why pointers and setters dominate American field trials. There are reasons why American bred shorthairs are very hard to beat in AKC all age, all breed trials although in my area there are some Britts that will give the shortahirs all they can handle and then some. One of the principal reasons is that those breeds of dogs have each been bred for both speed AND endurance. At trials, being first to the bird is often the difference between winning and losing so the dog that can cover the ground the fastest will get there first. if the dog can continue to get there first over the course of the entire brace(endurance at speed), the other dog has no chance.

The Spinoni is an all day bird dog...so is the Clumber spaniel. They are both great breeds of hunting dogs, but neither posesses the speed of the pointer, setter or American GSP and to (I feel) a slightly lesser extent, the American Brittany. Nor should they. They do what they do superbly, just differently. There are breeds out there that do many things well. I am not dissing any of them. Heck, I have seen, and been beaten in competition by Vizslak, Weimaraners, Wirehairs and others. There are fine dogs in many breeds. They all have their strong points, and they all have attributes that make them special and desirable to segments of the hunting public.

If I needed a dog to do a fair number of cold water retrieves, I sure would not have pointers or setters very high on my list. Shorthairs??....well maybe. Britt's... yeah, I think that would work.

However for both speed AND endurance in the same dog, it is hard to beat trial bred pointers, setters, then shorthairs and Britts, pretty much in that order.

RayG

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:29 pm

mountaindogs wrote:And while the grammer police are out, ConFORmation (as applied to a dog) is how well a dog conforms to a particular standard. ConFIRmation is to establish the truth or validity of something, to validate it. You could confirm a correct conformation though... I digress... sorry...

Did you say GRAMMER police??

Now I think THAT is funny.

RayG

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:59 am

The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.

Since build and gait is determined by conformation, what is different about the conformation that permits a field trial bred dog to stride ahead?

One of the principal reasons is that those breeds of dogs have each been bred for both speed AND endurance

back again to conformation

AF has no Pointer standard and there are not many DCs out there in many breeds.

From what I am reading, it takes a dog who has less correct conformation to have the edge on speed and endurance?
And the dogs who are more correct are not desired b/c they are slower?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:15 am

adogslife wrote:
The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.
Since build and gait is determined by conformation, what is different about the conformation that permits a field trial bred dog to stride ahead?

One of the principal reasons is that those breeds of dogs have each been bred for both speed AND endurance
back again to conformation

AF has no Pointer standard and there are not many DCs out there in many breeds.

From what I am reading, it takes a dog who has less correct conformation to have the edge on speed and endurance?
And the dogs who are more correct are not desired b/c they are slower?

adogslife -

The American Field most assuredly has a standard. It is the standard of winning in competition. The dogs that win...get bred. Those that win a lot...get bred a lot. Those that don't, do not get the opportunities to pass on their genes. The standard is perfpormance in the field in direct competion.

The inherent flaw with ANY written conformation standard is that it is someone's opinon of what the dog should look like. there is not an automatic connection between what a dog is supposed to look like and what it can do in the field. We all know of the "breed standard" for numerous sporting breeds that works to the considerable detriment to the dog's field performance.

All one has to do is to look at the archetype of the Irish setter or pointer according to the AKC breed club standard and look at the corresponding FDSB pointer or Red setter that has proven itself in the field, in competition. One can say the same thing about the English setter to a great extent. Take a winning show Irish or English setter and put it in cover and it will probably get anchored to the bushes by all that hair. I have seen only a relative few show bredirish or English setters that could be competitive in AF trials. A show winning AKC pointer is far better in that they will very often make very nice, very competitive AKC gundogs. However, there is no way those AKC pointers can stay with an FDSB bred horseback shooting dog. That is simply not going to happen. Trust me on that.

You ask the question about what is different in the conformation between the field trial bred dog...and another unspecified dog or breed of dog. That is something of a rhetorical question. The only way I can answer it is to say: "Look for yourself. You will see the differences."

In the arena of competition...form follows function. If the dog does it faster, better, longer, harder, stronger, more stylish...THAT becomes the new conformation standard. The committee that is trying to craft words that translate into functional performance and reduce everything to measurements, and angles and proportions and such, will always be behind the curve.

RayG

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:37 am

RayGubernat

There are lots of misconceptions out there.

Someone mentioned that most hunters have absolutely no clue how much effort it takes for a dog to hunt at a shooting dog pace in front of a horse for an hour, espeically in warmer weather. That is absolutely true in my opinion.

The bigger dog has a MUCH longer stride and can run farther and longer with less effort than the smaller dog. that is just the way it is. The smaller dog that has tons of snap, crackle and pop and has incredible footspeed might look like it is goig 100 MPH but the bigger dog with the easy, reaching gait will roll past that fast footed dog. It is kinda like the Porsche and the Corvette.
Over the quarter mile and for the sprint, the "vette will come out of the hole and make the Porsche look slow. But after a mile or two the Porsche will keep on comin' and just roll on by.

This is where you totally contradict yourself..

When you see a 70 pound DD going through the field you think the dog is really covering some ground. But when you brace that DD with a 65 pound pointer or setter, the DD often looks like it is laboring and the setter or pointer is just cruising along. That is because the are built differently and gaited differently. The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.

You just said the bigger dog has a longer stride and this is true.
There are Many DDs/PPs/DKs/DLs that gave an awesome gait and keep up just fine with Pointers or field dogs, but they look lazy doing it due to their effective gate, which will win no trials.
Some HUNTERS employ both DDs & Pointers and they the DDs hold their own just fine.

This an example of an all day Hunting Dog.
It doesnt run at a Frantic, all out pace, but a hunting pace and it is a 4 legged, heat seeking missile on a mission to seek and destroy.
The difference is that it will blood track your deer, bay your hogs with the best curs, kill any vermin it finds along the way (no questions asked) and guard your truck, blind or home.
When others quit, he is just getting started.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:44 am

RayGubernat wrote:
adogslife wrote:
The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.
Since build and gait is determined by conformation, what is different about the conformation that permits a field trial bred dog to stride ahead?

One of the principal reasons is that those breeds of dogs have each been bred for both speed AND endurance
back again to conformation

AF has no Pointer standard and there are not many DCs out there in many breeds.

From what I am reading, it takes a dog who has less correct conformation to have the edge on speed and endurance?
And the dogs who are more correct are not desired b/c they are slower?

adogslife -

The American Field most assuredly has a standard. It is the standard of winning in competition. The dogs that win...get bred. Thpose that win a lot...getbred a lot. Those that don't, do not get the opportunities to pass on their genes.

The inherent flaw with ANY written conformation standard is that it is someone's opinon of what the dog should look like. there is not an automatic connection between what a dog is supposed to look like and what it can do in the field. We all know of the "breed standard" for numerous sporting breeds that works to the considerable detriment to the dog's field performance.

All one has to do is to look at the archetype of the Irish setter or pointer according to the AKC breed club standard and look at the corresponding FDSB pointer or Red setter that has proven itself in the field, in competition. One can say the same thing about the English setter to a great extent.

You ask the question about what is different in the conformation between the field trial bred dog...and another unspecified dog or breed of dog. That is something of a rhetorical question. The only way i can answer it is to say"Look for yourself. You will see the differences."

In the arena of competition...form follows function. If the dog does it faster, better, longer, harder, stronger, more stylish...THAT becomes the new conformation standard. The committee that is trying to craft words that translate into functional performance and reduce everything to measurements, and angles and proportions and such, will always be behind the curve.

RayG

Ray, I agree with a lot of what you are saying but you are promoting a method that will produce great hunting dogs but all will be the same breed, mutts.

Standards were first written by the people centuries ago that were developing a new breed for a specific purpose and were not interested in just producing another breed that looked or performed like what they already had. There is no place in history that even indicates the Britt should look , move, or hunt like a pointer. Two different breeds that were bred for different purposes. Now, in all of our wisdom we have decided what we like and try to mkae every breed conform to that standard. Why, I have no idea. We haven't done that with our horses, our pigeons, our cows, and most of our dogs that aren't considered sporting dogs. I have no idea why we think every sporting dog should look and hunt the same as every other breed. But I haven't given up, still hope someday before we lose the different breeds and their attributes we figure out why we have different breeds that do different things in different manners.

Ezzy

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:47 am

Bill this is off topic I know but one question which country would you rather live in?
USA or Germany????

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:55 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Bill this is off topic I know but one question which country would you rather live in?
USA or Germany????

What does this have to do with anything?..

But since you asked..I would certainly prefer the autobahn, german beer, german dogs, hunting tradition, the greatest manufacturing and technology if I were in Germany, and take them all in.

But Im born here and raise children here. This is my home.
Even with a declining dollar, the offshoring of almost every manufacturing job, and a terribly corrupt government.

Does that answer your silly question?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:01 am

BillThomas wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Bill this is off topic I know but one question which country would you rather live in?
USA or Germany????

What does this have to do with anything?..

But since you asked..I would certainly prefer the autobahn, german beer, german dogs, hunting tradition, the greatest manufacturing and technology if I were in Germany, and take them all in.

But Im born here and raise children here. This is my home.
Even with a declining dollar, the offshoring of almost every manufacturing job, and a terribly corrupt government.

Does that answer your silly question?

Bill are you aware that our manufacturing output in the USA has risen every year since records have been kept even though we continually hear othat we are losing all of our manufacturing. Just ain't true, like so many other popular concepts.

Ezzy

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:08 am

ezzy333 wrote: Bill are you aware that our manufacturing output in the USA has risen every year since records have been kept even though we continually hear othat we are losing all of our manufacturing. Just ain't true, like so many other popular concepts.Ezzy

Yes thats what the dumb dumb economists tell us...Like in this report which validates that 33% of US Job Losses in Manufacturing took place in the last 10 years, and that its good nws for workers, corporations and the US economy.

Economists offer more pessimistic view on manufacturing in upcoming report

By Peter Whoriskey, Published: March 19 The Washington Post

During the 2000s, as U.S. manufacturing was transformed by devastating job losses, prominent economists and presidential advisers offered comforting words.
The paring of the manufacturing workforce, which shrank by a third over the decade, actually represented good news, manufacturing companies needed fewer people.'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some believe the US is on a titanic course, this dollar chart tends to tell the bigger story.
95% loss of purchasing power of US dollar since 1913 (Federal reserve)

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:18 am

Thanks for answering that question now I know where all your BS is coming from.Been there done that will no longer reply to your jibberish.But you need to keep it all on one thread instead of spreading the same exact BS out over 3 or 4 different threads.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:28 am

Ezzy,

See Bill here, well he'd like US manufacturing to go back to the 1950's technology. Turret lathes, Bridgeport milling machine, everything thing being manually operated. He sees the success in manufacturing as the number of jobs, not the output per job. Yeah, we could easily triple manufacturing employment, but we'd have to dumb down the technology to do so.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:29 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Thanks for answering that question now I know where all your BS is coming from.Been there done that will no longer reply to your jibberish.But you need to keep it all on one thread instead of spreading the same exact BS out over 3 or 4 different threads.

What exactly was 'BS'?

The No limit Autobahn? Incredible Germany Science and technology? German dogs and beer?

Or the US Dollar decline and loss of Manufacturing jobs in the last 10 years?

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:32 am

Bill

I'd happily run my trial brittany against that DD you posted in a hunting situation. As a matter of fact, I do it nearly every year on pheasants. But if prior results have any indication of future results, you might be in trouble. Last year we had our birds and were enjoying a nice lunch while the guys hunting over the DD's were still trying to get theirs. We typically kill 2 to 1 over my trial dog then they do their DD's. But I have to admit, they did back nicely!

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:36 am

Wyndancer wrote:Ezzy,

See Bill here, well he'd like US manufacturing to go back to the 1950's technology. Turret lathes, Bridgeport milling machine, everything thing being manually operated. He sees the success in manufacturing as the number of jobs, not the output per job. Yeah, we could easily triple manufacturing employment, but we'd have to dumb down the technology to do so.

Nothing wrong with manufacturing production. Or jobs in that sector.
Production IS wealth, and true economic growth.

So, to address your point, Id like Tariffs imposed on nations like China, Korea, Mexico...and have true Fair trade.

However, when a group of International bankers, a private, foreign corporation has control over a nations money like ours, and make deals with the devil, provided they keep our currency afloat for the time being, while said Banksters plot our demise.
All the while, they allow those nations to export their goods into ours, creating a trade imbalance, destroying American jobs. What a racket.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

jetjockey wrote:Bill

I'd happily run my trial brittany against that DD you posted in a hunting situation. As a matter of fact, I do it nearly every year on pheasants. But if prior results have any indication of future results, you might be in trouble. Last year we had our birds and were enjoying a nice lunch while the guys hunting over the DD's were still trying to get theirs. We typically kill 2 to 1 over my trial dog then they do their DD's. But I have to admit, they did back nicely!

Thats funny because I know of few to 0 DD owners in your state of Georgia...Wire coats arent well suited to hot Southern climates.

But for the record, Many DDs have tested well and outperformed Long tails and trial dogs in bird finding competition.
Bring your dog up to the cattail country and hunt some Phez and youll learn some humility.

If you feel the need to test your dogs merit against some DDs/PPs/DKs Im sure there are more than willing to take your money.
My dog is almost 11 and has demonstrated her worth to me against Britts, labs, GSPs, Setters and others.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:47 am

BillThomas wrote:Yes thats what the dumb dumb economists tell us...Like in this report which validates that 33% of US Job Losses in Manufacturing took place in the last 10 years, and that its good nws for workers, corporations and the US economy.

BillThomas wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:Ezzy,

See Bill here, well he'd like US manufacturing to go back to the 1950's technology. Turret lathes, Bridgeport milling machine, everything thing being manually operated. He sees the success in manufacturing as the number of jobs, not the output per job. Yeah, we could easily triple manufacturing employment, but we'd have to dumb down the technology to do so.
Nothing wrong with manufacturing production. Or jobs in that sector.
Production IS wealth, and true economic growth.

You are a pretty conflicted man..aren't you.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:47 am

adogslife -

The American Field most assuredly has a standard. It is the standard of winning in competition. The dogs that win...get bred. Those that win a lot...get bred a lot. Those that don't, do not get the opportunities to pass on their genes. The standard is perfpormance in the field in direct competion.

The inherent flaw with ANY written conformation standard is that it is someone's opinon of what the dog should look like. there is not an automatic connection between what a dog is supposed to look like and what it can do in the field. We all know of the "breed standard" for numerous sporting breeds that works to the considerable detriment to the dog's field performance.

All one has to do is to look at the archetype of the Irish setter or pointer according to the AKC breed club standard and look at the corresponding FDSB pointer or Red setter that has proven itself in the field, in competition. One can say the same thing about the English setter to a great extent. Take a winning show Irish or English setter and put it in cover and it will probably get anchored to the bushes by all that hair. I have seen only a relative few show bredirish or English setters that could be competitive in AF trials. A show winning AKC pointer is far better in that they will very often make very nice, very competitive AKC gundogs. However, there is no way those AKC pointers can stay with an FDSB bred horseback shooting dog. That is simply not going to happen. Trust me on that.

You ask the question about what is different in the conformation between the field trial bred dog...and another unspecified dog or breed of dog. That is something of a rhetorical question. The only way I can answer it is to say: "Look for yourself. You will see the differences."

In the arena of competition...form follows function. If the dog does it faster, better, longer, harder, stronger, more stylish...THAT becomes the new conformation standard. The committee that is trying to craft words that translate into functional performance and reduce everything to measurements, and angles and proportions and such, will always be behind the curve.

It is a shame to breed solely for one aspect.

I have looked and I have seen the differences.
Lack of forechests,straight fronts,on and on.
I guess tthe dogs win,get bred and the future is set.

Your last paragraph,
all I can say is WOW.

Such a shame.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:49 am

Wyndancer wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:Ezzy,

See Bill here, well he'd like US manufacturing to go back to the 1950's technology. Turret lathes, Bridgeport milling machine, everything thing being manually operated. He sees the success in manufacturing as the number of jobs, not the output per job. Yeah, we could easily triple manufacturing employment, but we'd have to dumb down the technology to do so.
Nothing wrong with manufacturing production. Or jobs in that sector.
Production IS wealth, and true economic growth.

You are a pretty conflicted man..aren't you.

I suppose.

If youre not angry, Youre not paying attention.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:50 am

WHo said I was hunting with them in GA. Besides, do you see the snow? So there goes that theory of yours. Like I said, they do back nicely!

Well, not really. It didn't stop until it got scent as well. But you get the idea. These were supposidly VERY GOOD DD's. Which they were, but the couldn't keep up when it came to speed and finding birds of my trial dog.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:53 am

Last year we had our birds and were enjoying a nice lunch while the guys hunting over the DD's were still trying to get theirs.

Grow up.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am

Ah geez...now I want to sell my Sauer.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:57 am

jetjockey wrote:WHo said I was hunting with them in GA. Besides, do you see the snow? So there goes that theory of yours. Like I said, they do back nicely! Well, not really. It didn't stop until it got scent as well. But you get the idea. These were supposidly VERY GOOD DD's. Which they were, but the couldn't keep up when it came to speed and finding birds of my trial dog.

In my experience, They back, find, retrieve, track, kill and guard better than any other sporting breed.

If all you value is before the shot pointing on birds, Im sure youre happy with your spaniel.

Go hunt some cattails with the same 2 dogs and report back to me after 3 days.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:59 am

BillThomas wrote:RayGubernat
There are lots of misconceptions out there.

Someone mentioned that most hunters have absolutely no clue how much effort it takes for a dog to hunt at a shooting dog pace in front of a horse for an hour, espeically in warmer weather. That is absolutely true in my opinion.

The bigger dog has a MUCH longer stride and can run farther and longer with less effort than the smaller dog. that is just the way it is. The smaller dog that has tons of snap, crackle and pop and has incredible footspeed might look like it is goig 100 MPH but the bigger dog with the easy, reaching gait will roll past that fast footed dog. It is kinda like the Porsche and the Corvette.
Over the quarter mile and for the sprint, the "vette will come out of the hole and make the Porsche look slow. But after a mile or two the Porsche will keep on comin' and just roll on by.
This is where you totally contradict yourself..
When you see a 70 pound DD going through the field you think the dog is really covering some ground. But when you brace that DD with a 65 pound pointer or setter, the DD often looks like it is laboring and the setter or pointer is just cruising along. That is because the are built differently and gaited differently. The typical DD simply cannot stay with the typical field bred pointer or setter for any length of time, in open country because their build and gait does not permit it.

You just said the bigger dog has a longer stride and this is true.
There are Many DDs/PPs/DKs/DLs that gave an awesome gait and keep up just fine with Pointers or field dogs, but they look lazy doing it due to their effective gate, which will win no trials.
Some HUNTERS employ both DDs & Pointers and they the DDs hold their own just fine.

This an example of an all day Hunting Dog.
It doesnt run at a Frantic, all out pace, but a hunting pace and it is a 4 legged, heat seeking missile on a mission to seek and destroy.
The difference is that it will blood track your deer, bay your hogs with the best curs, kill any vermin it finds along the way (no questions asked) and guard your truck, blind or home.
When others quit, he is just getting started.

Bill is that your dog backing in this picture? It has been posted on this board previously by someone who liked to beat the same dead horse? Just curious if you got the picture from him or if he got it from you?

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:00 am

adogslife wrote:
Last year we had our birds and were enjoying a nice lunch while the guys hunting over the DD's were still trying to get theirs.
Grow up.

Im not trying to be an azz, but it is the truth. The DD's were very nice dogs, and they found birds after my dog had been through that she had missed, but overall, we kill a lot more birds over my dog. In that situation, her speed and endourance outhine the slower working mythodical DD's.

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:01 am

Garrison wrote:
Bill is that your dog backing in this picture? It has been posted on this board previously by someone who liked to beat the same dead horse? Just curious if you got the picture from him or if he got it from you?

No

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:05 am

Im not trying to be an azz, but it is the truth. The DD's were very nice dogs, and they found birds after my dog had been through that she had missed, but overall, we kill a lot more birds over my dog. In that situation, her speed and endourance outhine the slower working mythodical DD's.

What??????

Maybe you'd like to rephrase this or better yet delete it?

BillThomas · Post by **BillThomas** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:06 am

jetjockey wrote:
adogslife wrote:
Last year we had our birds and were enjoying a nice lunch while the guys hunting over the DD's were still trying to get theirs.
Grow up.
Im not trying to be an azz, but it is the truth. The DD's were very nice dogs, and they found birds after my dog had been through that she had missed, but overall, we kill a lot more birds over my dog. In that situation, her speed and endourance outhine the slower working mythodical DD's.

Your opinion was based on hunting an area with lots of birds that your dogs, by your own admission, missed and were found by the more methodical DDs.

Take the same Britt and DDs too some real phez cover (Cat tails) and hunt it.

Do it over 3 days, if your Britt can still walk/hunt. And then get back to me.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:10 am

BillThomas wrote:
Garrison wrote:
Bill is that your dog backing in this picture? It has been posted on this board previously by someone who liked to beat the same dead horse? Just curious if you got the picture from him or if he got it from you?

No

Sorry I am a bit confused.

No it is not your dog and you were posting it and describing its abilities in the field as if it was?

No you didn't get the picture from the guy that previously posted it?

or

No he didn't get the picture from you?