What is the driver behind endurance.

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What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:51 pm

I've often wondered this and it came up under the other endurance thread. May be neat to hear what everyone thinks is the driver behind endurance. Not whether it's genetic or taught, nature or nurture, but what is the specific driver.

As simple as it seems this one has always had me at a loss. We've all seen Shorthair and Setters that are built like a Pointer and other breeds that are as driven and bird crazed as a Pointer, but Pointers dominate the entry and virtually always win Ames. Why is that? There are nice dogs in just about every breed, so how can two dogs that look and act so much alike have endurance levels on two totally different planes? It seems that maybe it's in another part of the brain than the part that regulate the drive. Maybe it has something to do with the part that can tolerate discomfort or something else.
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by slistoe » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:25 pm

Well, for starters getting in to Ames has little to do with superlative endurance. Staying the course there may, but getting there isn't the thing.
The driver for endurance is heart. Some dogs simply quit when it gets hard, others will die trying. I have always said that I like to hunt with a dog that NEEDS a handler because they will kill themselves without someone to tell them when to quit. Such dogs are not easy to come by.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by original mngsp » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:55 am

I have always said that I like to hunt with a dog that NEEDS a handler because they will kill themselves without someone to tell them when to quit
My feeling exactly. There are a lot of things we can train a dog to do, but the heart, drive, and desire of great bird dogs are a result of genetics and breeding.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by GrayDawg » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:47 am

Genetics, conditioning & nutrition..........

In THAT order. IMHO

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:25 am

Only 4 of 41 dogs completed the trial at Aames.

Pointers win Aames, because they look better than other dog breeds out there.
(Lots of unproductive points, run offs, trah points too from the top pointers)

Pointers dont win or dominate ncessarily because of endurance. But because of their style and run.
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:31 am

BillThomas wrote:Only 4 of 41 dogs completed the trial at Aames.
Which has nothing to do with their endurance in the great majority of cases. If they aren't winning the handlers pick them up.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by rockyridge kennels » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:35 am

GrayDawg wrote:Genetics, conditioning & nutrition..........

In THAT order. IMHO

Rob
Without a doubt. Nuff Said.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Grange » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:12 am

The big question for me is what is a drop in endurance or performance. Part of it is when I start seeing me english setter set a more deliberate pace . For hunting that is fine, but for trialing that isn't what I want. She still runs and hunts well enough, but her style drops a touch and she doesn't have that "pop" in cover that she does when she's first put down. It could be as simple as her tail action or seeing her approach an obstacle differently. Speed on the ground is only part of the factor.

When I'm hunting I notice a drop in hunting endurance after about 5 days or so in the grouse woods and three days when hunting pheasant. Part of that is probably because I hunt ruffed grouse a lot more. The other part is the beating the dogs take when hunting. The tall grass and cattails of pheasant territory I hunt really wears on their pads and face whereas raspberries, blackberries and other heavy brush of ruffed grouse territory really scratch the underside of the dogs. My dogs can run with scratched bellies, but worn out pads make it more difficult.

For my personal tastes I prefer the Armstrong-Umbell Endurance Classic more than Ames since I am mostly a ruffed grouse hunter/trialer.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:30 am

BillThomas wrote:Only 4 of 41 dogs completed the trial at Aames.

Pointers win Aames, because they look better than other dog breeds out there.
(Lots of unproductive points, run offs, trah points too from the top pointers)

Pointers dont win or dominate ncessarily because of endurance. But because of their style and run.
My 02c

LOL good one! :D

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:03 am

Elkhunter wrote:
BillThomas wrote:Only 4 of 41 dogs completed the trial at Aames.

Pointers win Aames, because they look better than other dog breeds out there.
(Lots of unproductive points, run offs, trash points too from the top pointers)

Pointers dont win or dominate ncessarily because of endurance. But because of their style and run.
My 02c

LOL good one! :D


From Ames directly. 2012 and 2011
AGAIN, Lots of Unproductives, Trash Pointing, even a few runoffs after Spotters on Horses couldnt find the dogs!

The 'best ' bird dogs in the country? Lol indeed.
http://www.amesplantation.org/field-tri ... nopsis.asp


CedarOak Delta Dawn backed Whippoorwill Radiance at :35 (a rabbit); was later gone, and Tracking device was requested at 1:49.


'Coldwater Warrior was Lost; Tracking device requested at 1:05.

Phantom's Last Dime was Lost; Tracking device requested at the hour mark.

L J Confidential had a find at :51; sustained an absence; handler came for Tracking device at 1:40.


Mega Touch was Gone at :18 and handler requested Tracking device at :60.


Spectre Pete had 2 unproductives; picked up at 2:23.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives. Up at :57.

Patriote had two game contacts, a rabbit, and 1 unproductive. Completed the three hours.

Prairieland Pride had two finds, a back and 1 unproductive and finished the three hours.

Elhew Sinbad had three finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and was picked up at 2:05.

Poison tallied five finds and a divided find, had 2 backs and an unproductive. Finished the three hours.

Strut notched three finds, shared a find with Poison, had two backs, 1 unproductive, and finished the three hours.

Lester's Knockout and White's Solid Reward had virtually simultaneous Unproductives. Reward taken up at 1:50 and Knockout at 1:54.

Survivor's Real Deal had four finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and finished the three hours.

Survivor's Little Bill had five pieces of bird work, a back, 2 unproductives, and finished the three hours.

Patriote had a find, 2 unproductives, and was taken up at 1:24.

Idaho Clean Sweep had two finds, a back, a rabbit, and 3 unproductives. Picked up at 1:20.
Phantom’s Last Dime had four finds. Picked up at 1:50


Lester's Snowatch had five finds, a rabbit and 2 unproductives. Picked up at 2:41.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives and was up at 1:05.
Last edited by BillThomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:14 am

And now we are back to the idiot(as I mentioned in a different thread) portion of this fine forum.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by brad27 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:19 am

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."
If the trial dogs and hunting dogs were not braced together and ran at the same time AND THE SAME PLACE, then this comparsion means nothing.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:19 am

ElhewPointer wrote:And now we are back to the idiot(as I mentioned in a different thread) portion of this fine forum.

How do you reconcile THESE Results, posted Directly ON Ames website?
Is no critique of these performances allowed? Again, these are the supposed 'Best' bird dogs in America and the Quintessential sporting dog event..


CedarOak Delta Dawn backed Whippoorwill Radiance at :35 (a rabbit); was later gone, and Tracking device was requested at 1:49.


'Coldwater Warrior was Lost; Tracking device requested at 1:05.

Phantom's Last Dime was Lost; Tracking device requested at the hour mark.

L J Confidential had a find at :51; sustained an absence; handler came for Tracking device at 1:40.

Mega Touch was Gone at :18 and handler requested Tracking device at :60.


Spectre Pete had 2 unproductives; picked up at 2:23.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives. Up at :57.

Patriote had two game contacts, a rabbit, and 1 unproductive. Completed the three hours.

Prairieland Pride had two finds, a back and 1 unproductive and finished the three hours.

Elhew Sinbad had three finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and was picked up at 2:05.

Poison tallied five finds and a divided find, had 2 backs and an unproductive. Finished the three hours.

Strut notched three finds, shared a find with Poison, had two backs, 1 unproductive, and finished the three hours.

Lester's Knockout and White's Solid Reward had virtually simultaneous Unproductives. Reward taken up at 1:50 and Knockout at 1:54.

Survivor's Real Deal had four finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and finished the three hours.

Survivor's Little Bill had five pieces of bird work, a back, 2 unproductives, and finished the three hours.

Patriote had a find, 2 unproductives, and was taken up at 1:24.

Idaho Clean Sweep had two finds, a back, a rabbit, and 3 unproductives. Picked up at 1:20.
Phantom’s Last Dime had four finds. Picked up at 1:50


Lester's Snowatch had five finds, a rabbit and 2 unproductives. Picked up at 2:41.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives and was up at 1:05.
Last edited by BillThomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:21 am

brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that More Moderate Paced hunting pointers Found 25-35% of Available birds."
If the trial dogs and hunting dogs were not braced together and ran at the same time AND THE SAME PLACE, then this comparsion means nothing.
It DOES, if Other slower paced 'meat' dogs are bought in, on the same grounds, and put up consistently MORE birds, time and again, which they did.
Last edited by BillThomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:23 am

BillThomas wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:And now we are back to the idiot(as I mentioned in a different thread) portion of this fine forum.

How do you reconcile THESE Results, posted Directly ON Ames website?
Is no critique of these performances allowed? Again, these are the supposed 'Best' bird dogs in America and the Quintessential sporting dog event..


CedarOak Delta Dawn backed Whippoorwill Radiance at :35 (a rabbit); was later gone, and Tracking device was requested at 1:49.


'Coldwater Warrior was Lost; Tracking device requested at 1:05.

Phantom's Last Dime was Lost; Tracking device requested at the hour mark.

L J Confidential had a find at :51; sustained an absence; handler came for Tracking device at 1:40.

Mega Touch was Gone at :18 and handler requested Tracking device at :60.


Spectre Pete had 2 unproductives; picked up at 2:23.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives. Up at :57.

Patriote had two game contacts, a rabbit, and 1 unproductive. Completed the three hours.

Prairieland Pride had two finds, a back and 1 unproductive and finished the three hours.

Elhew Sinbad had three finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and was picked up at 2:05.

Poison tallied five finds and a divided find, had 2 backs and an unproductive. Finished the three hours.

Strut notched three finds, shared a find with Poison, had two backs, 1 unproductive, and finished the three hours.

Lester's Knockout and White's Solid Reward had virtually simultaneous Unproductives. Reward taken up at 1:50 and Knockout at 1:54.

Survivor's Real Deal had four finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and finished the three hours.

Survivor's Little Bill had five pieces of bird work, a back, 2 unproductives, and finished the three hours.

Patriote had a find, 2 unproductives, and was taken up at 1:24.

Idaho Clean Sweep had two finds, a back, a rabbit, and 3 unproductives. Picked up at 1:20.
Phantom’s Last Dime had four finds. Picked up at 1:50


Lester's Snowatch had five finds, a rabbit and 2 unproductives. Picked up at 2:41.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives and was up at 1:05.
Im not going to get into a pissing match with you, as im sure you've been to Ames during the National many many times, trained dogs of this caliber, understand what kind of animal it takes to win this trial, etc......

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:27 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:And now we are back to the idiot(as I mentioned in a different thread) portion of this fine forum.

How do you reconcile THESE Results, posted Directly ON Ames website?
Is no critique of these performances allowed? Again, these are the supposed 'Best' bird dogs in America and the Quintessential sporting dog event..


CedarOak Delta Dawn backed Whippoorwill Radiance at :35 (a rabbit); was later gone, and Tracking device was requested at 1:49.


'Coldwater Warrior was Lost; Tracking device requested at 1:05.

Phantom's Last Dime was Lost; Tracking device requested at the hour mark.

L J Confidential had a find at :51; sustained an absence; handler came for Tracking device at 1:40.

Mega Touch was Gone at :18 and handler requested Tracking device at :60.


Spectre Pete had 2 unproductives; picked up at 2:23.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives. Up at :57.

Patriote had two game contacts, a rabbit, and 1 unproductive. Completed the three hours.

Prairieland Pride had two finds, a back and 1 unproductive and finished the three hours.

Elhew Sinbad had three finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and was picked up at 2:05.

Poison tallied five finds and a divided find, had 2 backs and an unproductive. Finished the three hours.

Strut notched three finds, shared a find with Poison, had two backs, 1 unproductive, and finished the three hours.

Lester's Knockout and White's Solid Reward had virtually simultaneous Unproductives. Reward taken up at 1:50 and Knockout at 1:54.

Survivor's Real Deal had four finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and finished the three hours.

Survivor's Little Bill had five pieces of bird work, a back, 2 unproductives, and finished the three hours.

Patriote had a find, 2 unproductives, and was taken up at 1:24.

Idaho Clean Sweep had two finds, a back, a rabbit, and 3 unproductives. Picked up at 1:20.
Phantom’s Last Dime had four finds. Picked up at 1:50


Lester's Snowatch had five finds, a rabbit and 2 unproductives. Picked up at 2:41.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives and was up at 1:05.
Im not going to get into a pissing match with you, as im sure you've been to Ames during the National many many times, trained dogs of this caliber, understand what kind of animal it takes to win this trial, etc......

Pee away if you wish, or dont.
But address the performances at Ames, its there for the world to see.

Off day for all of them?
The Runoffs, Tracking devices, Rabbit trash pointing, and Unproductive false points dont tell us anything?

Its largely not about finding birds for the gun, but snappy style, run, pagaentry and man made subjective criteria to determine 'best.' And the performances show, to a large extent.
I didnt make up the results, I just reported them.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by brad27 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:28 am

BillThomas wrote:
brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that More Moderate Paced hunting pointers Found 25-35% of Available birds."
If the trial dogs and hunting dogs were not braced together and ran at the same time AND THE SAME PLACE, then this comparsion means nothing.
It DOES, if Other slower paced 'meat' dogs are bought in, on the same grounds, and put up consistently MORE birds, time and again, which they did.
Post a link to the study please.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:32 am

[quote="brad27"][quote="BillThomas"][quote="brad27"][quote]They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.




"A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations. Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."


Different style of dogs were used in studying quail , and results went against conventional wisdom and presupposed notions of bird dogs, trial dogs, and run, VS nose and moderate paced dogs.

I cant link much because as it states, the results were buried.

Trialing is an industry.
I dont think Ames would put itself out of business by publishing such results.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:37 am

I worked on a bird study here in MO many years ago - dogs found about 50% of the wild birds out there. A similar study in Georgia showed that dogs found a bit more than 50% (I believe it was 53%) of the birds on the study site. In MO, the dogs used were some field trial dogs or NSTRA dogs and some hunting dogs that had never been trialed. All breeds, brittany's, ES's, EP's and maybe a GSP (I can't remember one on the sites I worked but there might have been one on the MO study).

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Garrison » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:46 am

Bill do you hang out with a guy named Birddogz? If your not one in the same I am sure you would get along marvelously!
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:47 am

From the Study:

'The study put radio tracking collars on more than two dozen coveys and compared the position of the coveys to the route run by the dogs. They limited their study to coveys within 400 yards of the centerline of the course. What they found was that these trial dogs found 5% of these radio collared coveys. That's not even counting the uncollared coveys on the course.'


Contrary to Duane's assertion, the studies clearly showed the dogs running past coveys in the middle of course - nowhere near cover. In fact, in many heats the gallery flushed more quail than the dogs found.
The studies were so embarassing that they have been buried by the trial community - and now when the Ames trials are run more than 2,000 quail are released onto the course prior to the trials (and kept in the area by foodplots and feeding) to artificially bump up the find rate.
The National Championships are now run through the equivalent of an overstocked preserve with bird numbers so artificially high than no hunter would ever see them.

The other study was run at the Tall Timbers plantation by the University of Auburn and involved hunting pointers used on local plantations. Using similar radio telemetry methods, they found that the hunting dogs found 25-40% of the available coveys.

And
In 1992, we began monitoring the efficiency of pointing dogs in locating radio-tagged bobwhite coveys on two large, private hunting plantations in southwest Georgia. Over these five hunting seasons, we have had the distinct privilege of monitoring 169 hunts involving 254 separate radio-tagged coveys.
Additionally, our field staff has monitored 838 "encounters" between radio-tagged coveys and hunters

. '

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by nikegundog » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:53 am

Garrison wrote:Bill do you hang out with a guy named Birddogz? If your not one in the same I am sure you would get along marvelously!
Yep, I think he's back.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:00 am

nikegundog wrote:
Garrison wrote:Bill do you hang out with a guy named Birddogz? If your not one in the same I am sure you would get along marvelously!
Yep, I think he's back.
No sorry, I dont know birddogs.
I just like to question popular myths and conventional 'wisdom' as I often find that common sense is none too common these days.


In reality, i look at the mathematics and question the performance(s). How can you not?

'In eight days, 34 dogs pointed quail 91 times. '

8 days, of intensive quail managed grounds, on 18,000 acres, with 2 thousand pre trial 'stocked' birds in addition to the resident population, and this is the best they can do..?


Youve got to be kidding....
Last edited by BillThomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:02 am

BillThomas wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Garrison wrote:Bill do you hang out with a guy named Birddogz? If your not one in the same I am sure you would get along marvelously!
Yep, I think he's back.
No sorry, I dont know birddogs.
I just like to question popular myths and conventional 'wisdom' as I often find that common sense is none too common these days.


In reality, i look at the mathematics and question the performance(s). How can you not?

'In eight days, 34 dogs pointed quail 91 times. '

8 days, of intensive quail managed grounds, on 18,000 acres, and this is the best they can do..?


Youve got to be kidding....
Youre right. Good research. And good luck with you and your dogs.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:18 am

The driver behind endurance is the endocrine system. Next.
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:19 am

Bill,

I am not inclined to bet, but I wager this...the best birddog(s) on the planet have never seen Ames and they never will. I also believe that the most naturally talented best basketball player on the planet is never going to play in the NBA. It's sheer numbers; not all play the game...and its entertaining, sad and maddening to listen to those that grouse because they don't get a shoe contract.

Endurance is a matter of genetics, situational exposure, conditioning, nutrition and a mental x factor that includes maturity. It is seen in humans as well as dogs. When I growed up around my 30's the torture of distance running became a pleasure; marathons, 50k's and the process of getting there brought clarity to a self awareness that started getting pretty complex.

Its emabarrasing to argue apples and oranges, trials by nature a game of extremes. Breeding is an art and a science that needs those extremes to set a standard. When and if there is a better way to showcase breeding dogs for field purposes, the market will adopt those standards. In some circles I suppose it has...but, until such time the industry will continue to recognize and reward the accomplishments of these dogs that slog through the mire of competition to be recognized... I know, I know...a guy that owns a dog or two at a time and has trained 4, 5 or 6 in a lifetime is entitled to his or her opinion same as the next and in most cases there is no better trainer and judge for that persons bird dog...but it cannot be compared, and shouldn't be compared to what is "best" as decided in competition, and while humility looks good on us all, it really applies nicely when you haven't walked a mile in anothers moccasins.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:22 am

BillThomas wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Garrison wrote:Bill do you hang out with a guy named Birddogz? If your not one in the same I am sure you would get along marvelously!
Yep, I think he's back.
No sorry, I dont know birddogs.
I just like to question popular myths and conventional 'wisdom' as I often find that common sense is none too common these days.


In reality, i look at the mathematics and question the performance(s). How can you not?

'In eight days, 34 dogs pointed quail 91 times. '

8 days, of intensive quail managed grounds, on 18,000 acres, with 2 thousand pre trial 'stocked' birds in addition to the resident population, and this is the best they can do..?


Youve got to be kidding....
You just showed your level of education. You may want to recount your finds. I found there were 90 finds. I also totalled up the number of hrs the dogs were down. 55.93 total hrs on the ground. That equals 1.61 finds per dog/per hr. In my opinion, which means nothing, isn't to bad.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by brad27 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:35 am

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."

This just in, a study was done to see which state out of two (california and iowa) had the best birddogs. Over 7 days dogs in Iowa averaged 3 roosters per hour, in California dogs averaged 20 quail per hour. The conclusion? Dogs in California are better then dogs in Iowa. :roll:

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Garrison » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:46 am

brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."

This just in, a study was done to see which state out of two (california and iowa) had the best birddogs. Over 7 days dogs in Iowa averaged 3 roosters per hour, in California dogs averaged 20 quail per hour. The conclusion? Dogs in California are better then dogs in Iowa. :roll:
Can you post a link to the study? I just want to make sure that no blind britts were imported to California from the Dakotas, this could dramatically skew the results of the study.
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by brad27 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:55 am

Garrison wrote:
brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."

This just in, a study was done to see which state out of two (california and iowa) had the best birddogs. Over 7 days dogs in Iowa averaged 3 roosters per hour, in California dogs averaged 20 quail per hour. The conclusion? Dogs in California are better then dogs in Iowa. :roll:
Can you post a link to the study? I just want to make sure that no blind britts were imported to California from the Dakotas, this could dramatically skew the results of the study.
Unfortunately, before this study could get published a couple of unattended dogs grabbed the hard copy off the desk and ate it. :( But don't worry, you can take my word for it. :D

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by nikegundog » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:00 pm

BillThomas wrote:
"A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations. Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."


Different style of dogs were used in studying quail , and results went against conventional wisdom and presupposed notions of bird dogs, trial dogs, and run, VS nose and moderate paced dogs.

I cant link much because as it states, the results were buried.

Trialing is an industry.
I dont think Ames would put itself out of business by publishing such results.

You sound a little like this guy.
by Birddogz » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:22 pm

A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds.'

In brace by brace commentary from 2008 and 2009, 30-40 % of these dogs are false pointing...unproductives.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:04 pm

GrayDawg wrote:Genetics, conditioning & nutrition..........
X2 + desire

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:32 pm

BillThomas is not BirdDogz. OTOH, a certain person from Cincinnati, who has previously been banned from GDF, was fond of bringing up exactly this same conspiracy theory.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Ok ok ok IMO - endurance/competitiveness closely related in my eyes, dogs that have a high work rate and don't run away fron their noses will always do better than slow dogs. They just cover more ground ! Trials is a game the better dogs do come through with time, but does need some luck.

Trialers breed for nose, speed&style and then also just as importend a GOOD HANDLER/TRAINER !

Simple maths good dog avarage handler = avarage dog, good dog good handler = does well in trials - my 2c

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:52 pm

ElhewPointer said:
You just showed your level of education. You may want to recount your finds. I found there were 90 finds. I also totalled up the number of hrs the dogs were down. 55.93 total hrs on the ground. That equals 1.61 finds per dog/per hr. In my opinion, which means nothing, isn't to bad.
Again, On 18,000 acres of Managed Grounds, with Thousands of Resident Quail PLUS 2000 Quail released prior to the Trial, and the average is 1.5 birds per hour, per dog?

I and many others would probably give up hunting if this was the best I could do with my dog, and you equate these numbers to 'not too bad'?

Yes, again, My education tells me these numbers are almost horrid.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:55 pm

brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."

This just in, a study was done to see which state out of two (california and iowa) had the best birddogs. Over 7 days dogs in Iowa averaged 3 roosters per hour, in California dogs averaged 20 quail per hour. The conclusion? Dogs in California are better then dogs in Iowa. :roll:
Again, 2 Studies.
One conducted by bioogists at Ames and another by biologists at Tall Timbers with similar results...

I wish I had the study, only bits of it. But the numbers speak volumes.

I bet the dogs look pretty running past the horses though..

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:03 pm

"Chukar12"

I am not inclined to bet, but I wager this...the best birddog(s) on the planet have never seen Ames and they never will. I also believe that the most naturally talented best basketball player on the planet is never going to play in the NBA.

I agree with the above.

Where I diagree with others here, is having them tell me what is and is not a gun dog by virtue of how Far it runs, how Fast, and how Intensely VS other less 'important' factors like NOSE, Bird Smarts, Tracking & Retrieving ability, cooperation with me, and adjusting its range to cover, all somehow less important skills in the best gun dogs.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Greg Jennings » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:13 pm

Produce the report or cease and desist.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:20 pm

BillThomas wrote:Where I diagree with others here, is having them tell me what is and is not a gun dog by virtue of how Far it runs, how Fast, and how Intensely VS other less 'important' factors like NOSE, Bird Smarts, Tracking & Retrieving ability, cooperation with me, and adjusting its range to cover, all somehow less important skills in the best gun dogs.
This sounds like someone was pretty specific with you, is it in a different thread or this one? I would like to see that.

Most all of those skills and characteristics as described are subjective and in varying degrees measured in no small extent by the dogs exposure and training. So if we set the format of the venue aside, are you suggesting that these trainers that run and handle dogs in horseback field trials are somehow incompetent in either their training or evaluation of bird dog talent? Is it strains of a breed or a particular breed that you find incompetent?

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:21 pm

BillThomas wrote:ElhewPointer said:
You just showed your level of education. You may want to recount your finds. I found there were 90 finds. I also totalled up the number of hrs the dogs were down. 55.93 total hrs on the ground. That equals 1.61 finds per dog/per hr. In my opinion, which means nothing, isn't to bad.
Again, On 18,000 acres of Managed Grounds, with Thousands of Resident Quail PLUS 2000 Quail released prior to the Trial, and the average is 1.5 birds per hour, per dog?

I and many others would probably give up hunting if this was the best I could do with my dog, and you equate these numbers to 'not too bad'?

Yes, again, My education tells me these numbers are almost horrid.
I sure do. You are obviously uneducated in hunting/trialing/dogs/etc.... but keep doing your homework "BillThomas", and someday, just someday you will get a clue.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:23 pm

The report on the Ames study, done the winter of 98-99, is readily available from several sources. It has nothing to do with endurance.
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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:41 pm

BillThomas wrote:
brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.
Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds."

This just in, a study was done to see which state out of two (california and iowa) had the best birddogs. Over 7 days dogs in Iowa averaged 3 roosters per hour, in California dogs averaged 20 quail per hour. The conclusion? Dogs in California are better then dogs in Iowa. :roll:
Again, 2 Studies.
One conducted by bioogists at Ames and another by biologists at Tall Timbers with similar results...

I wish I had the study, only bits of it. But the numbers speak volumes.

I bet the dogs look pretty running past the horses though..
Bill -

Just a quick point in passing for you to consider....

The "average" horseback gallery at the National championship is somewhere on the order of 250 horses. The morning braces tend to be smaller but the afternoon braces, especially in good weather can exceed 500 riders. Can you imagine the amount of ground vibrations that a mounted regiment of cavalry generate??
Now think about what happens when you go to a cut over cornfield that has been hunted before and accidentally slam a door. How many pheasants flush wild, or take off likeroad runners, just from the sound of the door slamming?

Unless those "meat dogs" were hunted in the same way as the trial dogs...with the same size galleries, the handlers having to follow a pre-determined course, etc. any comparison is flawed.

As far as endurance is concerned it is physical ability that is driven by an unquenchable desire to find birds, both of which are primarily genetic. Proper conditioning and good nutrition can improve the endurnace and extend the length of years that a dog can continue to exhibit that endurance. However it is the desire to find birds that is the ultimate driver. I have seen dogs run on blown pads, bleeding with every step. I have seen dogs run on three legs. I have seen dogs run with thorns in their pad. I have seen dogs that did not have the physical abilities... literally grind themselves into the ground because their desire pushed the dogs beyond the capacity of their bodies to take punishment. Overwhelming desire is what drives this...nothing else can.

As was previously mentioned, some dogs have to be made to stop beofre they fall over on their noses from sheer exhaustion. That is thee mind writing checks that the body cannot cash, but a dog with that kind of drive will go out and do the same thing, time after time...because it must.

RayG

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:50 pm

Good point Ray. Gamemaker this year got hit by a vehicle and finished the 3 hrs. There's a lot of "meat dogs" that could use some heart and guts like that.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:59 pm

Bill -
Just a quick point in passing for you to consider....

The "average" horseback gallery at the National championship is somewhere on the order of 250 horses. The morning braces tend to be smaller but the afternoon braces, especially in good weather can exceed 500 riders. Can you imagine the amount of ground vibrations that a mounted regiment of cavalry generate??
Now think about what happens when you go to a cut over cornfield that has been hunted before and accidentally slam a door. How many pheasants flush wild, or take off likeroad runners, just from the sound of the door slamming?

Unless those "meat dogs" were hunted in the same way as the trial dogs...with the same size galleries, the handlers
RayG
We are Talking Miles. As in 18,000 acres, Ray. And some of those dogs are way Out of sight of said horses.

(Quail generally arent known for their running either.)

But its been noted that dogs are blowing BY Birds and that the gallery is Flushing birds that the dogs blow by.

Ive noted that some birds sit tight with a ruckus (car doors, talking etc) while others like Phez and sharpies head into next county.
Why wont you admit the obvious?

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:01 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Good point Ray. Gamemaker this year got hit by a vehicle and finished the 3 hrs. There's a lot of "meat dogs" that could use some heart and guts like that.

The Dog ran off, out of handler range, and almost became roadkill.

Id rather have smarts and cooperation, than heart. But Im glad the dog survived.
Last edited by BillThomas on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:02 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Produce the report or cease and desist.
Ill do my best..

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:18 pm

BillThomas wrote:ElhewPointer said:
You just showed your level of education. You may want to recount your finds. I found there were 90 finds. I also totalled up the number of hrs the dogs were down. 55.93 total hrs on the ground. That equals 1.61 finds per dog/per hr. In my opinion, which means nothing, isn't to bad.
Again, On 18,000 acres of Managed Grounds, with Thousands of Resident Quail PLUS 2000 Quail released prior to the Trial, and the average is 1.5 birds per hour, per dog?

I and many others would probably give up hunting if this was the best I could do with my dog, and you equate these numbers to 'not too bad'?

Yes, again, My education tells me these numbers are almost horrid.
I take it that you have made up your mind about something though I am not sure what it is. But I do know it has little to do with what this thread is about. So after reading your many posts that all say the same thing I am going to strongy suggest you move on to something else. We have all seen the material you are posting and it still says little about endurance. Maybe we can just let it go.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:09 pm

BillThomas wrote:
brad27 wrote:
They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that More Moderate Paced hunting pointers Found 25-35% of Available birds."
If the trial dogs and hunting dogs were not braced together and ran at the same time AND THE SAME PLACE, then this comparsion means nothing.
It DOES, if Other slower paced 'meat' dogs are bought in, on the same grounds, and put up consistently MORE birds, time and again, which they did.
I don't know where you are reading that or what you are smoking, but there is no such thing as you have posted.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by BillThomas » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
BillThomas wrote:ElhewPointer said:
You just showed your level of education. You may want to recount your finds. I found there were 90 finds. I also totalled up the number of hrs the dogs were down. 55.93 total hrs on the ground. That equals 1.61 finds per dog/per hr. In my opinion, which means nothing, isn't to bad.
Again, On 18,000 acres of Managed Grounds, with Thousands of Resident Quail PLUS 2000 Quail released prior to the Trial, and the average is 1.5 birds per hour, per dog?

I and many others would probably give up hunting if this was the best I could do with my dog, and you equate these numbers to 'not too bad'?

Yes, again, My education tells me these numbers are almost horrid.
I take it that you have made up your mind about something though I am not sure what it is. But I do know it has little to do with what this thread is about. So after reading your many posts that all say the same thing I am going to strongy suggest you move on to something else. We have all seen the material you are posting and it still says little about endurance. Maybe we can just let it go.

Ezzy
Ezzy,

My post dealt with Ames and only 4 dogs finishing the 3 day event.

Whether it was conditioning, endurance or handlers not wishing to continue their dogs, its IS relevant to the thread.

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Re: What is the driver behind endurance.

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:19 pm

BillThomas wrote:From the Study:

'The study put radio tracking collars on more than two dozen coveys and compared the position of the coveys to the route run by the dogs. They limited their study to coveys within 400 yards of the centerline of the course. What they found was that these trial dogs found 5% of these radio collared coveys. That's not even counting the uncollared coveys on the course.'


Contrary to Duane's assertion, the studies clearly showed the dogs running past coveys in the middle of course - nowhere near cover. In fact, in many heats the gallery flushed more quail than the dogs found.
The studies were so embarassing that they have been buried by the trial community - and now when the Ames trials are run more than 2,000 quail are released onto the course prior to the trials (and kept in the area by foodplots and feeding) to artificially bump up the find rate.
The National Championships are now run through the equivalent of an overstocked preserve with bird numbers so artificially high than no hunter would ever see them.

The other study was run at the Tall Timbers plantation by the University of Auburn and involved hunting pointers used on local plantations. Using similar radio telemetry methods, they found that the hunting dogs found 25-40% of the available coveys.

And
In 1992, we began monitoring the efficiency of pointing dogs in locating radio-tagged bobwhite coveys on two large, private hunting plantations in southwest Georgia. Over these five hunting seasons, we have had the distinct privilege of monitoring 169 hunts involving 254 separate radio-tagged coveys.
Additionally, our field staff has monitored 838 "encounters" between radio-tagged coveys and hunters

. '
So we have another person who foolishly thinks that there is some comparison to be made between the two studies. Without going in to the purpose and rigors of the competitive environment lets simply start with the design parameters of the two studies.
Could you please point out in the Tall Timbers study where "available" coveys is defined? You will not be able to because it doesn't exist. What they studied in Tall Timbers was the interaction between the dog and the birds when "encounters" were made. If the birds were 400 meters away from the dogs they simply were not included in the study data.

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