Too close to breed?

[romeo212000]

I have a male and female gsp I'm considering breeding. I think their traits would match up very well. Both are great dogs and I would expect the pups to be very nice as well. The problem is I am a little concerned the breeding might be too tight. The female is a granddaughter of crosswinds truckin fritz, and the male is a son of Fritz and is bred a little tighter on bottom. Scott, if you read this these are the pair I was speaking with you about at the performance classic in Nebraska. I'll attach links to the pedigrees. Let me know what you think.

https://www.netkennel.com/Files/463/858 ... digree.doc

https://www.netkennel.com/Files/463/185 ... _print.doc

[Stoneface]

I do not beliee you can breed too tightly if you do it right. If you have two dogs with clean gene pools science and historical results says you should be safe. If it's two dogs whose backgrounds you're not aware of I would tread a little lighter. I'm talking from purely what I've studied NOT what I've practiced. Ben Williams's line of Britts are famous and he's been breeding on the same gene pool since the '50s. Bob Wehle preferred close breedings, the closer the better. If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be. Anything I've ever read from Lloyd Brackett to Bob Wehle to Malcolm Willis all says that if you breed two unrelated, outcrossed dogs then you're playing roulette. But, if you breed two closely-related, tightly-bred dogs then you can pretty darned well guarantee what you're going to get.

Like I said, though, take this for what it's worth. I've never bred a litter, I'm just throwing back stuff I've read to get ready for when I do start breeding.

[romeo212000]

Well I have hunted behind and seen the females parents compete countless times. Gunners sire speaks for itself obviously. Thanks for the input.

[Cajun Casey]

That black Rusty dog is the only shorthair of his color I have ever liked the looks of. I have a friend with a son of his that is a gorgeous dog. My only concerns would be the heavy Dixieland's Rusty being linked with lupoid dermatosis and the somewhat early death of Fritz. I bet they'll be lookers if you breed this litter.

[romeo212000]

That black Rusty dog is the only shorthair of his color I have ever liked the looks of. I have a friend with a son of his that is a gorgeous dog. My only concerns would be the heavy Dixieland's Rusty being linked with lupoid dermatosis and the somewhat early death of Fritz. I bet they'll be lookers if you breed this litter.

I have a feeling I may know you. Ever make your way to Oklahoma NSTRA trials?

What was the story on Fritz's death anyways? I know it was cancer but did they determine the cause of it?

[Cajun Casey]

That black Rusty dog is the only shorthair of his color I have ever liked the looks of. I have a friend with a son of his that is a gorgeous dog. My only concerns would be the heavy Dixieland's Rusty being linked with lupoid dermatosis and the somewhat early death of Fritz. I bet they'll be lookers if you breed this litter.

I have a feeling I may know you. Ever make your way to Oklahoma NSTRA trials?

What was the story on Fritz's death anyways? I know it was cancer but did they determine the cause of it?

I used to go to Copan to watch when David was running Speckles. I know there were some shorthair people there. Shame they don't have those trials any more. That's where I saw Rusty. Fritz's death was no secret. I'm sure you could ask what exactly the type of cancer was.

[romeo212000]

Anybody else know enough to weigh in here?

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I do not beliee you can breed too tightly if you do it right. If you have two dogs with clean gene pools science and historical results says you should be safe. If it's two dogs whose backgrounds you're not aware of I would tread a little lighter. I'm talking from purely what I've studied NOT what I've practiced. Ben Williams's line of Britts are famous and he's been breeding on the same gene pool since the '50s. Bob Wehle preferred close breedings, the closer the better. If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be. Anything I've ever read from Lloyd Brackett to Bob Wehle to Malcolm Willis all says that if you breed two unrelated, outcrossed dogs then you're playing roulette. But, if you breed two closely-related, tightly-bred dogs then you can pretty darned well guarantee what you're going to get.

Like I said, though, take this for what it's worth. I've never bred a litter, I'm just throwing back stuff I've read to get ready for when I do start breeding.

You picked some good breeders to refer to i.e. Brackett, Wehle, Willis. Inbreeding (done properly) develops consistancy but inbreeders/linebreeders have gone through a lot of trial and error. Even linebreeders have to "outcross" ocassionally to bring vigor back into the line. Inbreeding is not for the faint of heart or newbies. Look at what top cattle ranchers do. If it didn't improve their stock they would not waste the time and money doing it.

I am a fan of the Brackett formula.

[romeo212000]

I do not beliee you can breed too tightly if you do it right. If you have two dogs with clean gene pools science and historical results says you should be safe. If it's two dogs whose backgrounds you're not aware of I would tread a little lighter. I'm talking from purely what I've studied NOT what I've practiced. Ben Williams's line of Britts are famous and he's been breeding on the same gene pool since the '50s. Bob Wehle preferred close breedings, the closer the better. If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be. Anything I've ever read from Lloyd Brackett to Bob Wehle to Malcolm Willis all says that if you breed two unrelated, outcrossed dogs then you're playing roulette. But, if you breed two closely-related, tightly-bred dogs then you can pretty darned well guarantee what you're going to get.

Like I said, though, take this for what it's worth. I've never bred a litter, I'm just throwing back stuff I've read to get ready for when I do start breeding.

You picked some good breeders to refer to i.e. Brackett, Wehle, Willis. Inbreeding (done properly) develops consistancy but inbreeders/linebreeders have gone through a lot of trial and error. Even linebreeders have to "outcross" ocassionally to bring vigor back into the line. Inbreeding is not for the faint of heart or newbies. Look at what top cattle ranchers do. If it didn't improve their stock they would not waste the time and money doing it.

I am a fan of the Brackett formula.

Well if I did do this breeding I certainly wouldn't consider making it tighter than it already is.

[dan v]

I do not beliee you can breed too tightly if you do it right. If you have two dogs with clean gene pools science and historical results says you should be safe. If it's two dogs whose backgrounds you're not aware of I would tread a little lighter. I'm talking from purely what I've studied NOT what I've practiced. Ben Williams's line of Britts are famous and he's been breeding on the same gene pool since the '50s. Bob Wehle preferred close breedings, the closer the better.

I've looked at a few Elhew peds....and I don't think I'd consider them tight as a whole, perhaps an individual here and there.

If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be.

Yeah....both the good traits and the bad traits.

Anything I've ever read from Lloyd Brackett to Bob Wehle to Malcolm Willis all says that if you breed two unrelated, outcrossed dogs then you're playing roulette. But, if you breed two closely-related, tightly-bred dogs then you can pretty darned well guarantee what you're going to get.

Like I said, though, take this for what it's worth. I've never bred a litter, I'm just throwing back stuff I've read to get ready for when I do start breeding.

Some of the canine genetic experts espouse the "assortative mating" philosophy, in which you breed like type to like type and breed out rather than breed in.

[ezzy333]

Wouldn't be a bit concerned if it is what you like. Many dogs are bred tighter.

Ezzy

[Stoneface]

If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be.

Yeah....both the good traits and the bad traits.

Yeah, I should have made that clear in my post. Sorry, Romeo. What I meant was that **all** inherited traits will be magnified with the closer the inbreeding. That's why if there's physical defect genes in the mix, even if the the sire and dam are physically clear, some puppies can come out with a foot sticking out of their head. Haha. That's why inbreeding has gotten the rap of producing mugaloid puppies. But, if you inbreed for several generations, selecting only the healthiest pups and weeding out the less desireable pups, you end up with a real clean gene pool that is supposed to breed true to type.

What I mean is, in theory at least, an extremely in-bred sire will throw pups with a lot of his characteristics whereas an extremely outcrossed sire, in theory, will throw pups that could look like anything from a chimp to a stone-chiseled birddog because the outcrossed sire has such diverse genes. When you think about the fact that dogs have SOOOOOO many more genes than just what you see, it's easier to think about. That's why a bitch who is severely undershot will throw pups who throw pups who throw pups and for generations there is no undershot then, several generations down the line, you get an undershot puppy from two parents with perfect bites. The genes that control undershot are in the ancestors, they just don't show up because the genes are recessive and are dominated by dominant genes.

I'd recommend reading Brackett's Planned Breeding series (http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-magazines ... eding.aspx) or Malcolm Willis's Genetics of the Dog (http://www.amazon.com/Genetics-Dog-Malc ... of+the+dog). Brackett's series is really understandable to us non-super minded science freaks of nature, but Willis does get fairly technical and you may have to take a much longer time to work through what he's saying (I still have a hard time understadning what he was saying about meiosis and mitosis).

[Cajun Casey]

What does JG think of the breeding? Although there are a lot of terminations on Rusty, the pedigrees on both are fairly outcrossed.

[romeo212000]

What does JG think of the breeding? Although there are a lot of terminations on Rusty, the pedigrees on both are fairly outcrossed.

He doesn't seem concerned by it. I spoke with Scott Townsend at the nationals in Nebraska a couple weeks ago and have him a little information on it and he said he'd probably breed them too, but said he would look at the pedigrees. He never got a chance to though.

[cjhills]

I do not beliee you can breed too tightly if you do it right. If you have two dogs with clean gene pools science and historical results says you should be safe. If it's two dogs whose backgrounds you're not aware of I would tread a little lighter. I'm talking from purely what I've studied NOT what I've practiced. Ben Williams's line of Britts are famous and he's been breeding on the same gene pool since the '50s. Bob Wehle preferred close breedings, the closer the better.

I've looked at a few Elhew peds....and I don't think I'd consider them tight as a whole, perhaps an individual here and there.

If you study on genetics at all you'll find that the closer the breeding is, the more magnified the inherited traits will be.

Yeah....both the good traits and the bad traits.

Anything I've ever read from Lloyd Brackett to Bob Wehle to Malcolm Willis all says that if you breed two unrelated, outcrossed dogs then you're playing roulette. But, if you breed two closely-related, tightly-bred dogs then you can pretty darned well guarantee what you're going to get.

Like I said, though, take this for what it's worth. I've never bred a litter, I'm just throwing back stuff I've read to get ready for when I do start breeding.

Some of the canine genetic experts espouse the "assortative mating" philosophy, in which you breed like type to like type and breed out rather than breed in.

Oh my, I should know better.
I don't know what the more magnified means. Their is a better chance of the same genes from both parents but they won't all be the same. We don't know which will be and which won't be, good or bad.

Bob Wehle did many fatherXdaughter, motherxson, sisterxbrother breedings.many puppies didn't make it out of the whelping box. I think Ben O.s dogs were mostly bred to run the prairie without a whole lot of concern about looks or anything else. ( that is my observation of the ones I have seen,not necessarily a fact) grandsireXgranddaughter is done quite often. But be prepared for little surprises. Breeders who think they are breeding out all genetic problems are fooling themselves. things keep popping up. There is no such thing as a "genetically clean" pedigree.
I've never met a true canine genetisist who believes in inbreeding. I ,and everybody else like to think we know more than they do but we don't. I've studied a lot of bloodlines and haven't found one that didn't have something hid under the rug. CJ

[Ms. Cage]

But, if you inbreed for several generations, selecting only the healthiest pups and weeding out the less desireable pups, you end up with a real clean gene pool that is supposed to breed true to type.

All dogs carry 3 to 5 recessive genes. Why did Bob Whele outcross??? Because he was lacking something and wanted to get it back.

IMO Jerry Hills post hit it on the head.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Yeah & he even said in his book & to people he talked to,he bred to GSPS to get biddability.Die hard pointer people say that was to throw people off as to how he was breeding,could be but one way or the other he lied. Ok jump in with both feet!!

[romeo212000]

So is everyone pretty much on the "you should be fine, just watch for anything undesireable" camp?

[Cajun Casey]

Yeah & he even said in his book & to people he talked to,he bred to GSPS to get biddability.Die hard pointer people say that was to throw people off as to how he was breeding,could be but one way or the other he lied. Ok jump in with both feet!!

My opinion of Mr. Wehle's breeding programs can be summed up in two words: Native Dancer. Look at this year's Triple Crown bid. Enough said. Ego trumps reason.

[Wildweeds]

do it .......... the ones that turn out are linebred,the ones that don't are inbred.................

[Grousewing]

I'm no expert on pedigrees but I have run against Scott and Fritz many times over the years here in Michigan. Fritz was one heck of a NSTRA dog. I have a buddy that just bred his Fritz female to a fritz male, should be one heck of a good breeding. IMO you have a very good chance of producing very nice pups with that pedigree. As I said though I am no expert on pedigrees, but I really like fritz's record of producing National Champion dogs and many Champion's over the years.

[cjhills]

So is everyone pretty much on the "you should be fine, just watch for anything undesireable" camp?

You have about the same chance with this breeding as any other unless there are some notable problems in the pedigree. It's all spin the cylinder, put the gun to your head and pull the trigger.
Many of the undesirables are not noticed because a lot of people don't know, or care as long as the dogs are functional. Bad bites are a good example and very common in some GSP lines. If it is not noticeable without looking most people couldn't care less. Hockey is another problem in some of the major lines that probably don't bother most dogs as far as function goes so most owners don't care. These are easy to see. Many are not. It goes on and on.
It is more like hope the undesirables don't bite you in the butt. Good luck CJ

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

[cjhills]

Very good Questions. But the puppies are really cute. So by the time they figure this out it is to late. Puppies poop a lot after mom quits eating it Cj

[Cajun Casey]

Assuming you are typing for Fritz, do you have any pictures to compare physical characteristics. Also, have either of these anumals been bred before and how did those pups turn out with respect to resemblance. I've seen RGU Rusty sons noticably bigger than him and heavy linebreeding on Dixieland's Rusty can produce diminutive females in my personal experience.

[romeo212000]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

All my puppies I sell come with a 24 month health guarantee that includes any and all generic defects that would make the dog unable to hunt or trial, such as eyes, hips, or bite (though they would still be able to trial or hunt). I do request the first right of refusal if the new owners are unable to keep the puppy within then first year of its life as well.

[romeo212000]

Assuming you are typing for Fritz, do you have any pictures to compare physical characteristics. Also, have either of these anumals been bred before and how did those pups turn out with respect to resemblance. I've seen RGU Rusty sons noticably bigger than him and heavy linebreeding on Dixieland's Rusty can produce diminutive females in my personal experience.

I have both of their pictures on my website. Gunner is on the home page, and princess is in the "our females" tab.
www.ridgerunkennels.com

[Cajun Casey]

Assuming you are typing for Fritz, do you have any pictures to compare physical characteristics. Also, have either of these anumals been bred before and how did those pups turn out with respect to resemblance. I've seen RGU Rusty sons noticably bigger than him and heavy linebreeding on Dixieland's Rusty can produce diminutive females in my personal experience.

I have both of their pictures on my website. Gunner is on the home page, and princess is in the "our females" tab.
http://www.ridgerunkennels.com

I will look at her when I'm not on my DumbPhone, which can't open netkennel tabs.

[romeo212000]

Assuming you are typing for Fritz, do you have any pictures to compare physical characteristics. Also, have either of these anumals been bred before and how did those pups turn out with respect to resemblance. I've seen RGU Rusty sons noticably bigger than him and heavy linebreeding on Dixieland's Rusty can produce diminutive females in my personal experience.

I have both of their pictures on my website. Gunner is on the home page, and princess is in the "our females" tab.
http://www.ridgerunkennels.com

I will look at her when I'm not on my DumbPhone, which can't open netkennel tabs.

My iPhone opens them automatically. I need to get a better picture of her. That's sort of how she usually points, but she's usually higher in the front.

[EK Cottontop]

I have always heard that the "King Theory" was the most productive method. It states that the sire of the sire should also be the grandsire of the dam, exactly like you have. There are GSP lines that have followed this for many generations with great success.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

All my puppies I sell come with a 24 month health guarantee that includes any and all generic defects that would make the dog unable to hunt or trial, such as eyes, hips, or bite (though they would still be able to trial or hunt). I do request the first right of refusal if the new owners are unable to keep the puppy within then first year of its life as well.

Sounds like this is not your firsr rodeo!
I wish you the best.

[brad27]

Is there any rule on max inbreeding coefficient %? Any number you wouldn't go above?

[cjhills]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

All my puppies I sell come with a 24 month health guarantee that includes any and all generic defects that would make the dog unable to hunt or trial, such as eyes, hips, or bite (though they would still be able to trial or hunt). I do request the first right of refusal if the new owners are unable to keep the puppy within then first year of its life as well.

I always question th 24 month gaurantee. You can't OFA hips until after 24 months. You can Penn hip but it is quite exspensive. CJ

[Troy08er]

+1

Wouldn't be a bit concerned if it is what you like. Many dogs are bred tighter.

Ezzy

[romeo212000]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

All my puppies I sell come with a 24 month health guarantee that includes any and all generic defects that would make the dog unable to hunt or trial, such as eyes, hips, or bite (though they would still be able to trial or hunt). I do request the first right of refusal if the new owners are unable to keep the puppy within then first year of its life as well.

I always question th 24 month gaurantee. You can't OFA hips until after 24 months. You can Penn hip but it is quite exspensive. CJ

If you're concerned go get them checked at 24 months then since that's when they can be checked.

[dan v]

If you're concerned go get them checked at 24 months then since that's when they can be checked.

OFA will give you a prelim at 12 months.

[northern cajun]

one of the old rules

Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam.

ok ok I didn't read all the post

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Just prepare for the worst in hopes for the best.
What will you do with the pups you cant sell or place?
What will you do if the pup/dog is the victim of a family split up and will be turned into a pound? Will you take the dog back?
What will you do if the new owner discovers the dog has bad hips or sezures? Will you stand by your breeding?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but point out things that can happen. It is easer to handle if you have a plan.

All my puppies I sell come with a 24 month health guarantee that includes any and all generic defects that would make the dog unable to hunt or trial, such as eyes, hips, or bite (though they would still be able to trial or hunt). I do request the first right of refusal if the new owners are unable to keep the puppy within then first year of its life as well.

Several years ago I changed my guarantee to 30 months to give a little leeway to the customers. I think it is more important to make sure my Sire & Dam are certified.

[cjhills]

Bob Wehle bred more litters, for more generations, than most of the rest of us put together and he still had genetic problems. In the Few generations most of us deal with we won't have much of an impact. We don't seem to hear a lot about the CHK dogs.
We try not to go over 17 COI and now are going less. too many things keep popping up. It is genetically impossible for all puppies in one litter to inherit the same genes, so some will be what you want and some won't.
Maybe we need to try cloning. CJ

[zzweims]

Many, including myself, would not consider this too close. But you have to consider your market. Serious competitors and breeders will understand the potential risks and rewards. If they like the pedigree, they'll buy a pup. Your average Joe pet owner/weekend hunter doesn't understand line breeding and might shy away.

Aline

[northern cajun]

go take a look at this ped

um that is highly inbreed and look at where he stands in production of get.

http://www.rozanekkennels.com/ET.htm

[smokinsam]

im no expert but i would do it for sure.