Trial Dog

[TChism]

With a lot of talk on this forum and several others about trial dogs, hunting dogs, meat dogs and birddogs, what is the definition of a trial dog to you. Not looking for which you think is better.
Examples: Lets say a guy owns dogs that are out of field champions in one venue or the next, out of a litter that half the puppies went on to become champions, but the guy has never even been to a field trial. He just hunts his dogs. If someone asked him what kind of dogs he had, with out being breed specific what would he call them?

On the otherside, what if the guy owned a dog that had zero field champions in the pedigree, and he started trialing and winning. What would you call that dog?


To me a birddog is a birddog. But I have caught myself calling my own dogs "trial dogs" or "just hunting dogs". So I guess I am asking, is a dog a trial dog becasue it is a certain type, or is it a trial dog because it runs in trials? Or, are birddogs just birddogs, that get stuck into certain categories, by people that want to justify their way of thinking? discuss

[Stoneface]

It seems, to me at least, that the classiciation really just dwindles down to what the dog is used for. If he's just used for wild birds, then he's a hunting dog. If he's ran in trials, he's a trial dog. He may not be a good trial dog, but he's still a trial dog. In high school even the worst player on the football team is a player. He may not be a good one, but he's still a player.

[ultracarry]

A Hunting dog is a hunting dog. A hunting dog can be "field bred".

A dog that only trials is a trial dog.

A.dog that does both is mine.

Doesn't really matter unless they ask what the breeding is.

[SCT]

"The Amesian Standard"

"The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brains, eyes, and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage, and stamina—and good manners, always. He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy, and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keeps his handler’s course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler."

I like this definition of a great bird dog, trial or otherwise.

Steve

[gotpointers]

"The Amesian Standard"

"The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brains, eyes, and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage, and stamina—and good manners, always. He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy, and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keeps his handler’s course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler."

I like this definition of a great bird dog, trial or otherwise.

Steve

+1

[midwestfisherman]

[tommyboy72]

A dog who never has birds shot down over them or is never allowed to retrieve I would consider a trial dog.

Example: I gave jcbuttry of this site a pup who is turning out to be a nice little trial dog for him. She is with the Tracys being trained right now. I love Joe like a brother so I am not knocking him just using him as an example. He never downs birds over his pup. She has a blank pistol shot when birds are flushed and birds are allowed to fly off but the pup never sees birds fall and certainly is never allowed to retrieve. This is so the pup never has the inclination to break at the flush. If she never gets a bird in her mouth she does not know what she is missing and never thinks twice about holding steady to the release. I understand this. According to trialer friends of mine this is the common way of training trial dogs. I am sure when Joe retires his pup from trialing he will force break her and make a fine hunting dog out of her but for now she is a trial dog.

[jetjockey]

I'd say it's all about what the dog is doing at that moment. When my dog is off with the trainer and competing off HB, she's a trial dog. When she's home and I'm hunting quail and pheasants with her, she's just a hunting dog. When people ask, I'll tell them she's just a bird dog. When she's laying on the couch cuddled up, she's a house dog. If and when I put her in a Hunt Test this year, she'll be a hunt test dog.

[tommyboy72]

jetjockey is that a Bracco Italiano in your avatar pic?

[fuzznut]

I'd say it's all about what the dog is doing at that moment. When my dog is off with the trainer and competing off HB, she's a trial dog. When she's home and I'm hunting quail and pheasants with her, she's just a hunting dog. When people ask, I'll tell them she's just a bird dog. When she's laying on the couch cuddled up, she's a house dog. If and when I put her in a Hunt Test this year, she'll be a hunt test dog.

Just about the perfect reply to this question!!!!

[Kmack]

To me, a trial dog is one that has what it takes to be considered by a judge for placement.
By default, a trial dog is automatically a hunting/birddog.

By this definition, many hunting dogs could be called trial dogs if their owner actually has the knowlege and ability to evaluate in the same manner as a judge would in a field trial.

Being a hunter only does not qualify one to make such a judgement.

[JKP]

Being a hunter only does not qualify one to make such a judgement.

I can accept this...as long as you are ready to accept that being a trialer only would not qualify someone to judge a hunting dog.


We need to get rid of labels and judge dogs but what they do and how they do it. We do ourselves a huge disservice, especially as breeders, by labeling dogs in terms of the activity that owners choose. I have seen too many "trial" performances from non trial dogs and likewise I have seen a great deal of Vdog excellence from largely trial bred performers. The hottest, biggest running Vdogs I ever bred came out of an unkown German bred dog. I had trainers begging me for the bitch I kept from that litter. Likewise, I know breeders that have had enormous success in NAVHDA breeding to trial dogs.

Ever see a trialer at the Invitational looking at the dogs? How many NAVHDA enthusiasts are observing trials? We are all guilty of prejudice and judgements that ultimately serve only to make us great in our minds and keep the genetic pool smaller for everyone.

[Kmack]

Being a hunter only does not qualify one to make such a judgement.

I can accept this...as long as you are ready to accept that being a trialer only would not qualify someone to judge a hunting dog.

I have no problem conceding this point...

[jetjockey]

jetjockey is that a Bracco Italiano in your avatar pic?

Man, you guys are giving my little dog a complex. Last week somebody asked if she was a pointer! . She's just a little 32lb soaking wet Brittany.

[ACooper]

I will never understand the constant argument of trial dog vs hunting dog. The huge majority of trial dogs are also hunting dogs, to argue anything else is a serious waste of time.

[Cajun Casey]

jetjockey is that a Bracco Italiano in your avatar pic?

Man, you guys are giving my little dog a complex. Last week somebody asked if she was a pointer! . She's just a little 32lb soaking wet Brittany.

Maybe she'd be a little fluffier if you dried her off? Just sayin'....

It doesn't matter what they do, they're MY dogs and that's what counts.

[Dirtysteve]

Trial Dog


Hunting dog


Trial dog


Hunting dog


Trial dog


Hunting dog


It just depends on the day what I call them

[SetterNut]

I will never understand the constant argument of trial dog vs hunting dog. The huge majority of trial dogs are also hunting dogs, to argue anything else is a serious waste of time.

I agree, a good % of people that trail, do it for something to do when the hunting season is closed.
They are both fun, and worth the time it takes to be proficient in one or both.

[jarbo03]

I will never understand the constant argument of trial dog vs hunting dog. The huge majority of trial dogs are also hunting dogs, to argue anything else is a serious waste of time.

I agree, a good % of people that trail, do it for something to do when the hunting season is closed.
They are both fun, and worth the time it takes to be proficient in one or both.

It gives people something to argue about. Whatever it takes to spend more time working with the dogs. I prefer to spend my time at the lake doing water retrieves. If I was not a waterfowl hunter I would prob be doing some kind of trials, whether it is small fun trials or what, I would be doing something with the dog.

[AzDoggin]

I will never understand the constant argument of trial dog vs hunting dog. The huge majority of trial dogs are also hunting dogs, to argue anything else is a serious waste of time.

Agree. Apparently some have a little too much time on their hands?

[Kmack]

I will never understand the constant argument of trial dog vs hunting dog. The huge majority of trial dogs are also hunting dogs, to argue anything else is a serious waste of time.

Agree. Apparently some have a little too much time on their hands?

It's pretty easy to figure out who this would be too... Just look at Post Count...

[Mountaineer]

To me, a birdhunter who is squeezing on 50 years walking behind dog tails, a Trial dog would be representitive of the dog(s) in any of my own birddog's pedigrees.

[DonF]

It seems, to me at least, that the classiciation really just dwindles down to what the dog is used for. If he's just used for wild birds, then he's a hunting dog. If he's ran in trials, he's a trial dog. He may not be a good trial dog, but he's still a trial dog. In high school even the worst player on the football team is a player. He may not be a good one, but he's still a player.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

Also really nice to see someone post the Amesian Standard. Best description of any kind of bird dog!