Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:17 pm

I bought a puppy from a reputable breeder. I paid $1500.00 for her. I have had nothing but problems with the dog. I would never blame a dog 100%, because I know how much we affect our dogs. But I think this dog is a little off.

I chose this dog because I needed a calm family pet. I expressed this to the breeder. I visited the pups at 4 weeks, and then was kept up to date by the breeder with photos and personality descriptions. I had to pick "my" puppy at 7 weeks based on my visit, the pictures, and the descriptions. When I went to pick up "my" puppy, she was crazy. I was there for an hour, and she literally attacked every other puppy there. . . for the entire hour. No other puppies were behaving this way. All of them at one point tried to lie down (if they could get away from her). She never did. I didn't think too much of it, because she was only 7.5 weeks. Could have been just having an off day, I thought.

She is 5.5 months now, and nothing has changed. The dog is constantly jumping on other dogs and nipping at people's faces. She swallows everything she can, and she won't give anything up. She tried to swallow a whole, live pigeon the other day rather than give it back. I literally had to pull it out by its legs. She bit my adult dog twice last week, creating two 3/4" wounds that needed to be stitched. This was mostly the product of puppy teeth and her being out of control. It didn't seem to be a malicious attack, but caused damage none-the-less. This is my third bird dog puppy. I never had any of these problems with the others.

Is this stuff normal? Is it worth hanging on to her to see what happens?

What concerns me is that I don't like the dog. . . which is a first for me.

I contacted the breeder about these problems about 5 weeks ago, and after that conversation decided to stick it out a while. It isn't getting better. I sent an e-mail to the breeder today, and she won't take her back.

Thoughts or suggestions?

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:35 pm

First, I would like to know if BAER was done on the puppy. If not, that is where I would start.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Wow! You know, are the first person to mention that, and I feel like a dunce for never thinking of it myself. I was shocked at how long it took her to start responding to her name. . . and that could explain it.

Ben

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by cjhills » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:28 pm

what is BAER

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:42 pm

Well, not all dogs are mentally stable, physically sound. But paying that price you should have breeder willing to take that puppy back. That said circumstances can make a big difference.
My first question would be have you had this breed before?
Second have you talked with a trainer? I am working with a family with a rescue puppy with very similar troubles. They are really making progress once the puppy started to figure out some ground rules

BAER is A hearing test...
I am inclined to think you have a more ADHD type of hearing issue. what breed? BUT you should always rule out health issues first!

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:46 pm

cjhills wrote:what is BAER

Brainstem Auditory Evoked Response

I think the puppy may be deaf. The breed would certainly suggest that is the problem. The fact that she was non-responsive to her siblings distress cries really throws a flag.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
cptn
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:35 pm
Location: Appalachia

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by cptn » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:13 pm

Never learned bite inhibition due to potential impaired hearing! Genius thought, Cajun.
---
July Rousse - "Roussey"
Alex - "Grem-grem"

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:25 pm

cptn wrote:Never learned bite inhibition due to potential impaired hearing! Genius thought, Cajun.
Dalmatians....
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:15 am

She's a setter dog.

User avatar
Fireside
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:02 am
Location: Colorful Colorado

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Fireside » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:16 pm

hearing problems could easily be the root cause. the more white the dog is the more the chance for deafness... take her to the vet and ask him to specifically test her hearing in both ears.

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:44 pm

Is there such thing as a bad puppy?
Simple answer yes. They all can't be angels. Sometimes the rebel is the best hunter. Assuming physically all checks out, make sure you and your family are the boss and enjoy the next 3 years of puppy-hood 8)
...not all dogs are mentally stable, physically sound...
+1

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:46 pm

Any dog with white in the coat carries the gene for deafness..........
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:28 pm

Setter DO have hearing issues. Since it is a setter definately do that test. The breeder should know and address it for you.
Agree genius thought and can't believe the breeder didn't notice. Hopefully that is not the issue for the puppies sake. If it IS deaf it's surprising. Most deaf puppies I have worked with (all both and for very short periods of time) were more sensitive and jumpy. Not so bold.

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Elkhunter » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:06 pm

I thought all $1500 puppies were solid! Just ask all the people on here! :twisted:

All kidding aside, that does sound like a bad deal. I hope things work out.

User avatar
jcbuttry8
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Bucks County, PA

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:36 pm

I have a white boxer and found out she was deaf at 9 weeks. The breeder offered to take her back but was going to put her down.

I just didn't feel right teaching my children that you discard something that was not perfect. So, we kept her . Now I was told about the test and then what they wanted for the test. So, being a cheap guy from OK, I put a bowl of milk on the ground put the pup to it and then slammed two pans several times above her head. When she never even flinched, I got the answer to my question.

By the way, best dog I have ever owned. Runs completely off of hand signals and a vibrating collar. If she's not looking I hit the button, If I can't find her, I hit the button. She shows up right at my feet within seconds. Love that dog.

Joe.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Sharon » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:15 pm

Where there's a will , there's a way. I use the bzzzzzzzzzzz for a deaf dog too.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:22 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:I have a white boxer and found out she was deaf at 9 weeks. The breeder offered to take her back but was going to put her down.

I just didn't feel right teaching my children that you discard something that was not perfect. So, we kept her . Now I was told about the test and then what they wanted for the test. So, being a cheap guy from OK, I put a bowl of milk on the ground put the pup to it and then slammed two pans several times above her head. When she never even flinched, I got the answer to my question.

By the way, best dog I have ever owned. Runs completely off of hand signals and a vibrating collar. If she's not looking I hit the button, If I can't find her, I hit the button. She shows up right at my feet within seconds. Love that dog.

Joe.
Very nice, Joe. I agree with you about the message you send to your kids. Glad to hear it worked out for you.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Sharon » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:55 pm

x2 - Very impressed with the message you gave your kids. Wow.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

User avatar
gotpointers
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:27 am
Location: Belen,Nm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by gotpointers » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:47 pm

A reputable breeder would help you with the pup. I personaly would want to have my hands on the pup if i had been the breeder. That would allow me to see where the problem lies so i could replace or refund.

User avatar
Deets
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:47 pm
Location: Tomball, TX

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Deets » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:22 pm

My pointer dosn't have an ounce of aggression in him. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that throughout the years there have been breeders that have fortitude to cull aggressive dogs. It's a tough thing to do and that's why I may never breed dogs, because I don't have what it takes to do that. IMO a responsible breeder would give you another pup, and take that one out of the gene pool.

JIM K
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:07 pm
Location: PA.

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by JIM K » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:08 pm

Brddgmn wrote:I bought a puppy from a reputable breeder. I paid $1500.00 for her. I have had nothing but problems with the dog. I would never blame a dog 100%, because I know how much we affect our dogs. But I think this dog is a little off.

I chose this dog because I needed a calm family pet. I expressed this to the breeder. I visited the pups at 4 weeks, and then was kept up to date by the breeder with photos and personality descriptions. I had to pick "my" puppy at 7 weeks based on my visit, the pictures, and the descriptions. When I went to pick up "my" puppy, she was crazy. I was there for an hour, and she literally attacked every other puppy there. . . for the entire hour. No other puppies were behaving this way. All of them at one point tried to lie down (if they could get away from her). She never did. I didn't think too much of it, because she was only 7.5 weeks. Could have been just having an off day, I thought.

She is 5.5 months now, and nothing has changed. The dog is constantly jumping on other dogs and nipping at people's faces. She swallows everything she can, and she won't give anything up. She tried to swallow a whole, live pigeon the other day rather than give it back. I literally had to pull it out by its legs. She bit my adult dog twice last week, creating two 3/4" wounds that needed to be stitched. This was mostly the product of puppy teeth and her being out of control. It didn't seem to be a malicious attack, but caused damage none-the-less. This is my third bird dog puppy. I never had any of these problems with the others.

Is this stuff normal? Is it worth hanging on to her to see what happens?

What concerns me is that I don't like the dog. . . which is a first for me.

I contacted the breeder about these problems about 5 weeks ago, and after that conversation decided to stick it out a while. It isn't getting better. I sent an e-mail to the breeder today, and she won't take her back.

Thoughts or suggestions?
real birdy dog will eat bird.i am going thru a little of this myself but i feel things may be turning at 9 weeks.dont know yet.
you may have to seperate 2 dogs for while. like year until your puppy gets older.
i am hoping i dont run into that.
i am trying to keep TOBY my lab as dog in charge .
sorry you are running into this,those puppy teeth are nasty. :(

it is easy to hate dog that bites or nips.

shags
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by shags » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:03 pm

Brddgmn wrote:I bought a puppy from a reputable breeder. I paid $1500.00 for her. I have had nothing but problems with the dog. I would never blame a dog 100%, because I know how much we affect our dogs. But I think this dog is a little off.

I chose this dog because I needed a calm family pet. I expressed this to the breeder. I visited the pups at 4 weeks, and then was kept up to date by the breeder with photos and personality descriptions. I had to pick "my" puppy at 7 weeks based on my visit, the pictures, and the descriptions. When I went to pick up "my" puppy, she was crazy. I was there for an hour, and she literally attacked every other puppy there. . . for the entire hour. No other puppies were behaving this way. All of them at one point tried to lie down (if they could get away from her). She never did. I didn't think too much of it, because she was only 7.5 weeks. Could have been just having an off day, I thought.

She is 5.5 months now, and nothing has changed. The dog is constantly jumping on other dogs and nipping at people's faces. She swallows everything she can, and she won't give anything up. She tried to swallow a whole, live pigeon the other day rather than give it back. I literally had to pull it out by its legs. She bit my adult dog twice last week, creating two 3/4" wounds that needed to be stitched. This was mostly the product of puppy teeth and her being out of control. It didn't seem to be a malicious attack, but caused damage none-the-less. This is my third bird dog puppy. I never had any of these problems with the others.

Is this stuff normal? Is it worth hanging on to her to see what happens?

What concerns me is that I don't like the dog. . . which is a first for me.

I contacted the breeder about these problems about 5 weeks ago, and after that conversation decided to stick it out a while. It isn't getting better. I sent an e-mail to the breeder today, and she won't take her back.

Thoughts or suggestions?
You don't say what you have done to deter the bad behavior. It sounds from what you have written that you have a high octane puppy that needs a firm and consistent hand. If you can relate what you have done in training for good manners, maybe the folks here could offer some solid recommendations. Although deafness might be an issue, remember that deaf dogs rely on reading body language, even more than hearing dogs do, to get along in the world. Your appropriate responses to her antics would discourage them; neither a hearing or a deaf dog really needs verbals from us to learn how to behave.

How much exercise does your pup get daily? A tired pup is a good pup, mostly. Especially those with tons of drive.

Your puppy's behavior sounds normal for a very young dog, like eight or nine weeks. How did you correct her at that time for nipping and jumping? Not to be harsh on you, but it sounds like you have a laid-back household that doesn't know how to deal with a little heck raiser, and she has got away with a lot of misbehavior. It's going to be more difficult to correct now, but it can be done and you'll end up with a nice dog.

Good luck to you.

User avatar
Fester
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:30 pm
Location: Possum Trot KY

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Fester » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:57 pm

If you paid 1500 for a pup it might not be a stretch for you to send it for some obedience classes, it will calm the pup down more than likely
Fester

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:05 pm

Fester wrote:If you paid 1500 for a pup it might not be a stretch for you to send it for some obedience classes, it will calm the pup down more than likely
Fester
Absolutely!

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by birddog1968 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:15 pm

OB classes for a birddog puppy ???

Some dogs are just rebels when they are young, others may have a screw loose......

My current Lab (he's almost 11 now) was the worst puppy i ever had....bad bad bad.....he's also been the most natural hunting dog I've ever owned,
and at about 2 to 3 years old he calmed and has been a model citizen.


Sometimes you just have to tough it out....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

JIM K
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 707
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:07 pm
Location: PA.

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by JIM K » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:55 pm

birddog1968 wrote:OB classes for a birddog puppy ???

Some dogs are just rebels when they are young, others may have a screw loose......

My current Lab (he's almost 11 now) was the worst puppy i ever had....bad bad bad.....he's also been the most natural hunting dog I've ever owned,
and at about 2 to 3 years old he calmed and has been a model citizen.


Sometimes you just have to tough it out....
you are right .i think OB class would not hurt.
getting dog around other dogs could calm her down.sometimes dog control you too.i have it happening as i write.
i hope its just puppy being puppy.
toby took 2 years too calm down.

User avatar
wems2371
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:55 pm
Location: Eastern Iowa

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by wems2371 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:59 pm

shags wrote:Your puppy's behavior sounds normal for a very young dog, like eight or nine weeks. How did you correct her at that time for nipping and jumping? Not to be harsh on you, but it sounds like you have a laid-back household that doesn't know how to deal with a little heck raiser, and she has got away with a lot of misbehavior. It's going to be more difficult to correct now, but it can be done and you'll end up with a nice dog.

Good luck to you.
My thoughts too, especially with a 5.5 month old still nipping at faces. I'd bet that many folks on here could have that one behavior fixed in just a couple days, if not sooner. I'm guessing she doesn't know who the boss is, and I would dread reading next, about family members needing facial stitches.

Obedience classes sound like a good idea, pending you seem to have or perceive problems with this pup. It would be leashed socialization with other dogs, where dominant behavior wouldn't be permitted. She would be in the close proximity of other dogs, but unable to attack them, playful or otherwise. It would give her a job to do. And it would set up a pattern of learning, where you teach/command, she complies, you reward. Just because you're in an obedience class, doesn't mean you have to teach your pup absolutely everything the other dogs are learning. Talk to the instructor and tell them your problem and what you'd like to accomplish. Could also be that you join a NAVHDA chapter or training group and get her into a similar circumstance, where more experienced handlers can help you...or send her off to a trainer for a month for a professional evaluation.

Trying to swallow a live bird is a separate issue to me. If you were trying to build prey drive and let her catch a bird, or she accidently caught one in a training exercise, then she's on full adrenaline rush at that time. Not a great analogy, but it would kind of remind me of trying to take a fudgesicle away from a todler. Yes, some toddlers may hand it over, but why would you be surprised if you came across one that didn't? I'd be sure not to let her catch again, and after you get a better handle on her obedience, I'd start introducing her to some bumpers. I'd teach her to fetch it from your hand, give on command, and combine it with an onleash recall eventually. She shouldn't be able to swallow or eat a bumper, and it will help build groundwork for understanding that things aren't hers to keep. Only after she masters that, would I move on to dead birds, and repeat the basis of fetch and give from my hand.

The big picture for me, is that you stated you don't like the dog. It could be hard to build on that. It's too bad the breeder won't take the pup back unconditionally. I'm thinking that refunding the $1500 is more the issue than the pup itself.

I don't believe there are nearly as many bad puppies, as there are owners that don't spot issues quickly enough and fix them as they go.

User avatar
gotpointers
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:27 am
Location: Belen,Nm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by gotpointers » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:19 pm

I have direct offspring off some of the best setters out there. I know they were not 1500.00 pups.

If the dog is deaf its a genetic defect and should be refunded. I can't see even a first time puppy owner have let a dog become this far out of control. I work with a lot of first time puppy owners.

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:28 am

Still it is hard for me to imagine a dog getting to almost 6 months as a deaf dog and it not becoming obvious somehow. Or at least suspected.

Is the dog allowed inside? Does it walk on a leash? Will it stay calmly in a crate when you are nearby but busy? Do you teach a whoa before feeding? Play retrieving? Deaf or not, the pup needs some self control. Needs to be t
aught life manners and how to work for what they want. Rule out health issue and then get a trainers help.
Good luck and be fair to the dog. Teach them what you DO want and not just what you dont want.

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:03 am

All

Thanks for your input...

First, as far as obedience goes, she does learn. She stands on command, walks on the leash, etc. but it has taken a very dominant training tone from me, and thus i'm the only one she'll do it for...which isn't easily replicated by a 1.5 year old and a wife trying to keep track of a 1.5 year old. This dog was supposed to be a family dog, not a kennel dog.

As far as deterring the biting, i tried everything... I tried holding her bottom jaw, which just caused her to bite down on my hand harder. I tried pushing my hand back in her mouth, which caused her to lunge back harder, snapping. I tried holding her mouth shut, which got the same reaction. I tried yelping like a hurt puppy and not jerking my hand away; this wound her up. I tried kenneling her at the first sign of agression, but she always repeated the behavior that got her there immediately after release. Of course all corrections were preceded by a single firm "no". And i didnt just try these for a day or two. I committed to at least 10 days with each one, to no avail. Aggressively pinning her down is the only thing that has gotten any sort of reaction out of her. The biting back while holding her bottom jaw was the most striking thing to me out of all of these...she was determined to beat me (she didnt, but it hurt).

As for birdiness, i think she is super birdy. She definitely has a lot of point in her. Swallowing the bird, i think was more a sign of aggressiveness than birdiness. It was her telling me that it was hers, and there was no way in heck she was going to give it to ME!

As for the breeder, i wasnt looking for a refund...which is why "i cant take her back. You should rehome her" shocked me so much. Im sorry, but if there is enough demand for your puppies for you to be charging 1500, there should be a list of folks willing to give a free one a chance.

Ben

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:05 am

...the dog will sit in the crate calmly. She stakes out ok, too.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:03 am

If I was the breeder of this puppy( which thank god,I'm not) I could not wait to get my hands back on her. To see if there is a problem that very well is genetic. We just don't allow that much aggression.
This is definitely the breeders responsibility. It is easy to be a reputable breeder when things go good. The real test is when a problem arises. We need to bite the bullet,refund the money, take back the puppy and move on. This is definetly not normal behavior.
None of this helps you,of course, when what should be a great experience goes so bad. I'm pretty much at a loss as far as advice goes. maybe help from a pro of some sort. Probably not hearing if she responds your commands
It is so sad to see things like this happen. The dog world is small and the word gets around. It is to bad this sort of thing happens.
Sorry. hope things get better an good luck CJ

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:46 am

As I originally stated, I would check for some level of hearing deficiency. A unilateral dog can be worse than a bilateral in this respect because sound becomes confusing. I believe you are dealing with a high drive dog that needs direction. You might look at a retrieving program, like SmartWork, to get that mouth in your possession.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
DogNewbie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:35 am

I'm no expert and the number of dogs I've trained is an impressive one, but my first reaction to the biting problem you described was that you should put on some work gloves and stick your fingers in her mouth and make sure you win the battle this time around. Sounds to me like she may be learning that if she bites down harder she'll eventually win. If that's the case prepare yourself for an epic head to head and just make sure you come out the victor no matter what.

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:26 pm

I kinda think challenging her by grabbing and scruffing and such is winding her up and she is losing her thinking skills and going into WILD mode. Sometimes the way we usually do things just does not work for some dogs. Not sure where you live but you would be well served to find a trainer to help. If you are near me i would be happy to help. I am sure you will find others elsewhere also willing to help but I/they will need to see the problem to really understand what is going on.
You are going to need to think outside the box with her. What motivates her? What does she enjoy? You say you have to be really firm to train her but she should LIKE learning. She should be working for a goal not just avoiding what she doesn't want. She needs to learn to think and problem solve calmly and not just fight for herself. When she does obey commands WHY do you think she listens at that specific time?

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by birddogger » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:11 pm

What concerns me is that I don't like the dog. . . which is a first for me.
This is a big concern. I know you paid a lot of money for her [which I would not pay that much for a puppy out of any breeding, but that is beside the point] but, IMO, from what I read, I don't think there is necessarily anything abnormal going on here. However, I doubt that you will be able to do right by her and train her properly if you don't like her. I know it is not PC to dislike a puppy but it happens. I have only been there a couple of times but what I did, when I realized I did not like the dog, was to find it a new home. I am sure this is not what you want to here but.......

Good luck,
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
DogNewbie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:13 am

birddogger wrote:
What concerns me is that I don't like the dog. . . which is a first for me.
This is a big concern. I know you paid a lot of money for her [which I would not pay that much for a puppy out of any breeding, but that is beside the point] but, IMO, from what I read, I don't think there is necessarily anything abnormal going on here. However, I doubt that you will be able to do right by her and train her properly if you don't like her. I know it is not PC to dislike a puppy but it happens. I have only been there a couple of times but what I did, when I realized I did not like the dog, was to find it a new home. I am sure this is not what you want to here but.......

Good luck,
Charlie
If the dogs obedience is too much for you and your wife to handle (which is understandable considering the fact that you've got an infant to take care of) I think you should try seeking out a trainer before re-homing. A friend of mine had a terrible little puppy that would nip/bite his wife and kids, bark and destroy things and even pee on the owners. In general it was just too much for his training abilities. He was close to getting rid of it at about 5 or 6 months old but instead he sent it to a trainer for a couple weeks and he was able to straighten out the obedience issues and it's a completely different dog. He's calm and submissive and just a really nice pup....and he got a really good jump start on pigeons.

Another thought...if you do find that pinning the pup down is the only thing that gets a positive reaction out of the pup I would try to make time with your wife and just have her dominate the pup. At this point the more people you can get the pup to submit to the better IMO. I want my dog to understand that not only does he have to be submissive to me, but also to any guest in my house or child in my neighborhood or random dog lover that wants to pet him. I have zero tolerance for aggressive behavior in my dog. Also, if my pup is bothering someone, I don't step in and stop him, I tell them what to do to stop the behavior. I think that helped out a lot with my pup figuring out that he has to be submissive to all humans. Granted he wasn't as hard headed as your pup sounds like so this wasn't as difficult of a task as you have before you.

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:32 am

All

Again, thanks for all of your comments. I do have her scheduled to spend july and august with a pro. But im concerned right now that i might end up dropping another 1500 and still end up with a pup i dont want. I suppose the trainer will be able to give me a good assessment after a couple of weeks, which could curb my costs if it is a lost cause.

Part of my problem is that i specifically chose this breeder because i wanted a soft dog. I dont like having to be super intense all of the time around my dogs, because it isnt relaxing. Plus it is confusing to my child.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Ben

User avatar
DogNewbie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by DogNewbie » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:47 am

Brddgmn wrote:All

Again, thanks for all of your comments. I do have her scheduled to spend july and august with a pro. But im concerned right now that i might end up dropping another 1500 and still end up with a pup i dont want. I suppose the trainer will be able to give me a good assessment after a couple of weeks, which could curb my costs if it is a lost cause.

Part of my problem is that i specifically chose this breeder because i wanted a soft dog. I dont like having to be super intense all of the time around my dogs, because it isnt relaxing. Plus it is confusing to my child.

Thanks for the good discussion.

Ben
Good luck Ben. I hope the pro can get things straightened out for you. What I've found with my pup is that as he has matured I've been able to get softer and softer on him. For example, he barks whenever he hears someone coming up the front steps. He was really hard headed with this for a long time and I had to get pretty rough with him to get it through his head that his behavior is unacceptable. Now, whenever he barks a firm grasp around his mussel and a soft no is all it takes to get the picture in his head. I think he was just so hard headed that it took him longer to figure out that he can avoid the negative result of his behavior by avoiding the behavior all together. Good luck!

Tim

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:58 am

I think you need to go to class with the dog, not send the dog to a pro yet. Take the dog to a basic obedience class in your area, and learn about motivational training. Work towards something different than hunting so that you don't "care" if the dog is good at it or not. That helps you relax, and the dog will know. You need to switch the dog's way of thinking, cause right now they believe life is a contest of wills. You need to teach the dog to think and behave for GOOD stuff, and then the corrections will mean more. You will be building a relationship, providing some fun for the dog, and bringing the dog to the point that they want the fun, and want to find out how to get it. This is not to say avoid all corrections, but create more for the dog. And in the event that you are thinking that the nearest class is too far away, I drive 1 and 1/2 hours for dog classes, and no matter how experience I may be, I will always drive to the classes too. Something about the social but controlled setting really helps the dog, and I see that it is more than just knowledge. It's the whole experience for the dog. A lot of dog owners live in rural areas not so close to classes. But alot of them go to classes anyway. It's only once a week for a few weeks...

The breeder side of this is a side I can't get. I personally will never leave a dog in a home where the home is not fitting. I will help them fit in if I can, advise and reccomend help if I am too far away, but I am always available to take a puppy back if need be. NOT doing so, seems to me unfair to the buyer yes, but especially the PUPPY! I don't want my puppies in homes where they are not really appreciated. They will be living less than what they could have in the right home. Anyway, I hope there is more to the contract and story than you have mentioned, because it seems poor practice to just say sorry, your stuck with it. Especially when you left it up to them, to pick the calmest. Do you ever see or hear from any of the other puppy owners?

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:12 am

Just for the skeptics out there, I will post the e-mail exchange between the Breeder and me:

APRIL 8th, 2012

Breeder,

I'm going to have to look at re-homing Molly. I don't think it's working out for a variety of reasons. She is housebroken and crate trained. Please let me know if you have any ideas. I'm sorry.

Ben


Sorry to hear about Molly. I am on vacation until the 24th + do have some thoughts about placement but will have to wait until I return to discuss these with you. Please call me the evening of the 24th. Breeder

APRIL 9, 2012

Thanks, Breeder. I'll call you. I've taken her to a friend's house who has a good backyard and a jack russell that can hopefully teach her some dog manners. She has bitten me in the face twice (while playing) and drawn blood on a few occasions. While these were all playful incidences, I have been unable to get her to tone it down, and I don't want her hurting [my son] or making him fearful of dogs.

Ben


APRIL 10, 2012

Ben,

I am so sorry things did not work out for you that I would like to propose you bring Molly back to our kennel by this Sunday + when I return I will refund your money. I have someone at our home watching the dogs + she can care for Molly. Please call me today. Breeder

[I had a conversation with the breeder on April 10, wherein she gave me some suggestions. I decided to implement them and stick it out.]


JUNE 21, 2012

Breeder,

I've decided I can't keep this dog. If you would like to take her back, please let me know. Otherwise, I will re-home her. Thanks.

Ben

Hi Ben,

I am sorry I cannot take her back at this point in time and I am sorry things did not work out for you. You should re-home her.

Breeder


As for the classes, the dog doesn't have problems learning obedience-type things. I have been using click and treat, which she loves. I get good results with her. When I have her in a controlled environment, she is fine. She pays attention, and makes progress. However, when she is not in a training session is when there are problems. Remember, I didn't purchase a kennel dog. . . I purchased a house pet I could hunt with. There are far better hunters out there for half the money. I only have the capacity for two dogs, and this one needs to be a family pet.

RE: Other Owners--I contacted another owner from last years litter prior to purchasing. His puppy experience was quite different. He described his dog as very calm. He did say the breeder was a little "weird" though.

Ben

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:20 am

To the breeder's credit, she did offer a refund early on. However, I decided not to take her up on it in hopes that things would improve. I never requested a refund, nor do I think I am necessarily entitled to one. That isn't what this is about.

Ben

User avatar
Red
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: NJ

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Red » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:41 am

She has bitten me in the face twice (while playing) and drawn blood on a few occasions. While these were all playful incidences, I have been unable to get her to tone it down, and I don't want her hurting [my son] or making him fearful of dogs
He thinks you're his litter mate. That's where I would have pinned the dog and let him know he can NEVER do that, might need to do it more then one time but he will get it sooner or later.... All corrections need to be swift with no hesitation..

My 2 cent's....
Earth First, We Can Hunt The Rest Of The Planets Later.

User avatar
DogNewbie
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1041
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:39 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by DogNewbie » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:01 am

Red wrote:
She has bitten me in the face twice (while playing) and drawn blood on a few occasions. While these were all playful incidences, I have been unable to get her to tone it down, and I don't want her hurting [my son] or making him fearful of dogs
He thinks you're his litter mate. That's where I would have pinned the dog and let him know he can NEVER do that, might need to do it more then one time but he will get it sooner or later.... All corrections need to be swift with no hesitation..

My 2 cent's....
I agree. You may have to go out of your comfort range a bit and really make the pup understand that biting isn't worth it. If dominating the pup doesn't work maybe add a little discomfort too. An ear pinch or something. I know this isn't ideal for a pup but it really sounds like he may need it.

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:19 am

There is nothing wrong with rehoming the dog...especially one you are so unhappy with. A lot of trainers have taken in dogs that were "too much " for a calm family and given them the high drive job the dog needed. I am sorry it has been so tough and your type of situation is why birddogs sometime end up in rescue. The breeder may still help you out but maybe you are not wantning to deal with her. Which is perhaps understandable.

I think if you want to keep her you will need her to be controlled and leashed full time for a while. If she behaves well when controlled but acts wild when not, stick to what is working. All the time. In a crate or on leash under control. Even and especially in the house on leash. If she CAN behave when under control she needs that as her only option. She needs to Learn to LIVE that way. It might be almost like a collarwise dog only she has associated it across her whole life.

Good luck :(

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:19 am

I totally agree with the littermate observation, and each time she has gone at my face I have put her in a hold until she submits. My wife is not comfortable doing this, and my 1.5 year old, although a badass, hasn't quite mastered it yet.

Ben

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:24 am

Everyone likes to play expert, but the fact is you are not going to reconcile with this dog. Find her a new home and get an adult animal that has some training.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

User avatar
stlgsp
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:45 pm
Location: MO

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by stlgsp » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Everyone likes to play expert, but the fact is you are not going to reconcile with this dog. Find her a new home and get an adult animal that has some training.
+1
For the sake of the puppy place her in a good home with someone that knows how to handle a puppy and is willing to work with her. Reading this I don't think you have a bad puppy, it's the wrong pup in the wrong home. Personally I like the bold pups, they're a challenge but are usually worth the effort. I do find it odd that the breeder won't take her back.

User avatar
AzDoggin
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: AZ desert

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:52 am

Agree with the idea of rehoming the dog - too much is at stake here.

Be upfront with potential future owners.

NEVER buy another dog from this "breeder."

There are lots of dogs out there that are better matches for your situation.

Brddgmn
Rank: Just A Pup
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Is there such thing as a bad puppy?

Post by Brddgmn » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:40 pm

good home with someone that knows how to handle a puppy and is willing to work with her
I have to reply to this:

A. She is in a good home

B. I know how to handle a puppy, as I have raised numerous puppies throughout my life (including 2 trial-bred GSP's). I am seeking help because I have never experienced these problems before and

C. I have been willing to work with her. . . to wit:
1. she gets yard training every day,
2. she gets interaction throughout the day because she is brought to work with me
3. I have hired a pro to help both me and her out.

Despite A, B, and C, above, I am still having serious problems. My only reason for opening this up for discussion was to see if there are similar experiences out there, or things I haven't thought of.

Thanks.

Ben

Post Reply